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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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^Aye - I myself get really annoyed at any sort of PDAs, whether between straight couples or gay ones. It's very awkward when you're standing in a queue and there's a couple eating each others' mouths off right in front of you.

Same with any of that lovey-dovey stuff on Facebook - I always end up laughing when there are signs of a messy break-up afterwards. I'm not usually a sadist but when it comes to this kind of thing, I can't help but get pleasure from when it goes awfully wrong. Serves you right for using your relationship as a tool to effectively show off how amazing your life is, I'd say.
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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
You know what really grinds my gears?

Spoiler: I don't want to bring this up again but I really just can't let it go because it pissed me off.
When people say they're not homophobic but then say that gay people shouldn't 'flaunt their homosexuality' and keep it to themselves. But straight people don't keep their heterosexuality to themselves, it's fucking everywhere. Like, if I want to kiss my boyfriend in public or post pictures of us holding hands or even talk about what we do in private, I can and no one gives a shit! It's like when people say, "why can't we have a straight pride week?" EVERY week is straight pride week. Society is 1000% okay with every expression of heterosexuality, and to say that gay people should keep it to themselves and not do exactly what straight people are doing is plain homophobic.


I personally hate it when people display their affection for each other too much in public, whether they are straight or homosexual. If you want to give your lover a kiss in public, walk around holdings hands or even around their hips/on their ass, you know, that's fine by me. It only bothers me when they do those little kisses over and over.
Kiss. Kisskiss. Kisskiss. Kiss. Kiss. Ki-STOP IT ALREADY!!

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You know what else grinds my gears? When people don't shut up about how much they drink and go on about it because they think they sound cool. You're clearly doing it to try and impress people, and it's pathetic because it's so obvious they're looking for attention by continuously talking about it. College life is rife with this :/


Whenever someone tells me how wasted they were and how much alcohol they drink, I tell them that I'm looking forward to the day when they choke on their own blood from burst varices and have liver failure~ :redd:

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No, I'm not. I probably should. I just really would prefer to avoid the fiasco that'll occur when I bring it up with my parents


Uh... I don't know where you live, but can't you go to a gynocologist on your own? And prescribtion of the pill and all that, that is your own personal business. The doctor isn't allowed to tell your parents why you went there, unless you gave him express permission to tell them, so he's not gonna tell on you.
I know some people are brought up in a way to share everything with their parents... I guess I am, too, but my mother knew quite well I was given the pill for the sake of regulating my period and not cause I was fucking around. (And I was 17 when I started with the pill)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Whenever someone tells me how wasted they were and how much alcohol they drink, I tell them that I'm looking forward to the day when they choke on their own blood from burst varices and have liver failure~ :redd:

Bwahaha. I'm so using this.
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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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Yellow Magician wrote:
^Aye - I myself get really annoyed at any sort of PDAs, whether between straight couples or gay ones. It's very awkward when you're standing in a queue and there's a couple eating each others' mouths off right in front of you.

Same with any of that lovey-dovey stuff on Facebook - I always end up laughing when there are signs of a messy break-up afterwards. I'm not usually a sadist but when it comes to this kind of thing, I can't help but get pleasure from when it goes awfully wrong. Serves you right for using your relationship as a tool to effectively show off how amazing your life is, I'd say.


Unfortunately, these are the same types of people who think that the only way to validate their relationship is to shout about it to the world. If you want to introduce your friends to your new man/woman, fine. If you're getting married, tell them. But constant updates are unnecessary. I've never cared for PDAs beyond a quick kiss or hand holding, and care for such displays on the internet even less. I can't even imagine this kind of exchange on Facebook. Why get the whole world involved when it should only be between the two? Could it be that keeping up the relationship's appearance... just isn't as important as actually nurturing the damn thing?
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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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Amen, sistah. Maybe the effect is inflated a bit thanks to social networking sites, but for whatever reason many relationships are starting to seem a bit shallow to me and often reek of insecurity.
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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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You know what grinds my gears?
People who think that depression is an excuse and free-pass for doing anything. "Blaaah blaaah I hate humanity ROAAAR i'm dangerous, fuck u, i'm listening slipknot, i have the right to piss on you becoz i'm depressed, u don't know nuttin about ma life, ur life is easy, u will never understand me becoz i'm ENLIGHTENED."
Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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Do kids still listen to Slipknot? I remember when their hit song "People = Shit" was all the rage
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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title
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Yellow Magician wrote:
Do kids still listen to Slipknot? I remember when their hit song "People = Shit" was all the rage


Yeah they do, at least where I live. Can't really bash all Slipknot fans since I'm shamefully an screamo/immature metal fan myself, but Slipknot fans do have an special bad reputation.
And now (since 2008) their hit song is PSYCHOSOCIAL.
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dangerousoffender wrote:
You know what grinds my gears?
People who think that depression is an excuse and free-pass for doing anything. "Blaaah blaaah I hate humanity ROAAAR i'm dangerous, fuck u, i'm listening slipknot, i have the right to piss on you becoz i'm depressed, u don't know nuttin about ma life, ur life is easy, u will never understand me becoz i'm ENLIGHTENED."


I agree with this. While unfortunate that a person may be depressed, they are always accountable for their own behavior.
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
dangerousoffender wrote:
You know what grinds my gears?
People who think that depression is an excuse and free-pass for doing anything. "Blaaah blaaah I hate humanity ROAAAR i'm dangerous, fuck u, i'm listening slipknot, i have the right to piss on you becoz i'm depressed, u don't know nuttin about ma life, ur life is easy, u will never understand me becoz i'm ENLIGHTENED."


I agree with this. While unfortunate that a person may be depressed, they are always accountable for their own behavior.


Yeah. It made me think - not only depressed people, but almost everyone is avoiding on taking responsibility for their actions. Irresponsibility and self-indulgence, that's what really grinds my gears.
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CatMuto wrote:
Whenever someone tells me how wasted they were and how much alcohol they drink, I tell them that I'm looking forward to the day when they choke on their own blood from burst varices and have liver failure~ :redd:


Really? Funny, I just tell them good luck with their hangover. Sadly, I haven't had the fortune to purposely scream in the ear of and shine my best flashlight in the eye of speak to someone suffering from a hangover... But perhaps that's a good thing :oops:

CatMuto wrote:
Uh... I don't know where you live, but can't you go to a gynocologist on your own? And prescribtion of the pill and all that, that is your own personal business. The doctor isn't allowed to tell your parents why you went there, unless you gave him express permission to tell them, so he's not gonna tell on you.
I know some people are brought up in a way to share everything with their parents... I guess I am, too, but my mother knew quite well I was given the pill for the sake of regulating my period and not cause I was fucking around. (And I was 17 when I started with the pill)

C-A


Nope. I literally can't leave the house without a family member, and at the hospital, they insist on going in with me and get all offended if I say no. Doesn't help that I haven't passed my driving test yet, either, so I can't just go with some other excuse.

dangerousoffender wrote:
You know what grinds my gears?
People who think that depression is an excuse and free-pass for doing anything. "Blaaah blaaah I hate humanity ROAAAR i'm dangerous, fuck u, i'm listening slipknot, i have the right to piss on you becoz i'm depressed, u don't know nuttin about ma life, ur life is easy, u will never understand me becoz i'm ENLIGHTENED."


Freaking A. I hate that, too. Don't get me wrong; depression is depression, and a lot of people I've encountered with it honestly can't bring themselves to give a damn about others (myself included, but I rarely give a damn about others IRL anyway), but don't go and show it off more than you really need to. Believe me, it doesn't help. It starts coming off as whining, and then you wonder why no one has any sympathy for you.
So I finally grew a brain and remembered to give myself a signature... Whoopee.
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dangerousoffender wrote:
Cravat of Doom wrote:
dangerousoffender wrote:
You know what grinds my gears?
People who think that depression is an excuse and free-pass for doing anything. "Blaaah blaaah I hate humanity ROAAAR i'm dangerous, fuck u, i'm listening slipknot, i have the right to piss on you becoz i'm depressed, u don't know nuttin about ma life, ur life is easy, u will never understand me becoz i'm ENLIGHTENED."


I agree with this. While unfortunate that a person may be depressed, they are always accountable for their own behavior.


Yeah. It made me think - not only depressed people, but almost everyone is avoiding on taking responsibility for their actions. Irresponsibility and self-indulgence, that's what really grinds my gears.


Absolutely. It's worse when those types of people act entitled to that behavior, and any rewards that behavior may bring, even when it becomes a burden on at least one other person.
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Re: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?βTopic%20Title

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I dont know why you people are so terrified on talking about politics or religion. "Aa we don't want feelings to get hurt" sorry, thats highly childish. Nobody have responsibility regarding others feelings unless they attacked someone personally, but what if someone wants to attack an idea? Im personally catholic but I dont mind if someone bash my religion, it wont affect my faith, and most mature atheists wouldn't mind if I criticize their point of view.
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Not everyone can approach the matter maturely, CowboyKing, and while some people can avoid taking shots at their religion personally, that doesn't hold true for everyone. I've seen firsthand how easy it is for a discussion about religion or politics to become a flame war; hosting such discussions even on a forum as orderly as ours is tempting fate.
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CowboyKing wrote:
I dont know why you people are so terrified on talking about politics or religion. "Aa we don't want feelings to get hurt" sorry, thats highly childish. Nobody have responsibility regarding others feelings unless they attacked someone personally, but what if someone wants to attack an idea? Im personally catholic but I dont mind if someone bash my religion, it wont affect my faith, and most mature atheists wouldn't mind if I criticize their point of view.


Because it doesn't matter what you say, debates like that only happen between 2 people who refuse to let anyone else have an opinion different then them.
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Quote:
Nope. I literally can't leave the house without a family member, and at the hospital, they insist on going in with me and get all offended if I say no. Doesn't help that I haven't passed my driving test yet, either, so I can't just go with some other excuse.


Okay, you really gotta tell your parents to back the fuck off. I usually don't feel like telling me exactly what they should do, I think people are entitled to their mistakes and choose to do or not do what I may suggest, but your parents need to learn to back off. You are 18. Granted, not for very long, but GEEZ!
Have they never heard of PRIVACY? What sort of doctor do you even have that thinks it's perfectly okay for an 18 year old's parents to be in the room, during the examination and all, and even flat-out talk to you (hopefully not and not your parents) about any results?

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You know what grinds my gears?
People who think that depression is an excuse and free-pass for doing anything.


This is the exact reason why I barely give any breaks to people, even when they are depressed. If someone was really depressed, they wouldn't use that as an excuse for their behavior or actions. "Ooh, I'm sorry, I'm just so depressed..." No, if you are depressed, you generally just sit there with a :lana: face and wallow in your imbalanced chemical body and are depressed.
What, someone is depressed and knocked something over? Fuck it, clean it up.

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I dont know why you people are so terrified on talking about politics or religion.


I don't talk about religions because I don't want to piss people off. This has nothing to do with hurt feelings, at least I don't think so, I just feel like if I talked about religion with someone religious, my argument would boil down to, "Religion is an emotional crutch [you need] to get through life" and that's basically calling them weak. So... yeah, okay, sounds like hurt feelings. But that can also piss people off.
I think people can have whatever religion they want, just don't shove it in my face.

I never talk about politics because... I have no interest in them.

C-A
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Plus politics don't matter too much to such an international community. What would I know of Brazilian Government, or hell American elections.

Can barely bring myself to care about my own country's politics but it just doesn't seem like a decent topic of conversation for a multi-national crew like this one.

Though yeah same as the others said about religion, it shouldn't matter overly and so it doesn't get brought up much.
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CowboyKing wrote:
I dont know why you people are so terrified on talking about politics or religion. "Aa we don't want feelings to get hurt" sorry, thats highly childish. Nobody have responsibility regarding others feelings unless they attacked someone personally, but what if someone wants to attack an idea? Im personally catholic but I dont mind if someone bash my religion, it wont affect my faith, and most mature atheists wouldn't mind if I criticize their point of view.


I agree with what you said. "Mature people would debate ideas, not attack each other."
But unfortunately there's too many immature people in this world. I'm personally non-religious and libertarian and everytime I expose my opinions, people get REALLY mad at me (specially christians, old-school conservatives and welfare state defenders). So I decided to just keep quiet in order to avoid conflicts.
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CatMuto wrote:
Okay, you really gotta tell your parents to back the fuck off. I usually don't feel like telling me exactly what they should do, I think people are entitled to their mistakes and choose to do or not do what I may suggest, but your parents need to learn to back off. You are 18. Granted, not for very long, but GEEZ!
Have they never heard of PRIVACY? What sort of doctor do you even have that thinks it's perfectly okay for an 18 year old's parents to be in the room, during the examination and all, and even flat-out talk to you (hopefully not and not your parents) about any results?

Privacy!? What is this sorcery!? *cough* They afford me enough that I can write and post this without them looking over my shoulder, at least. If they DID peek over my shoulder, that would be bad *wince*

At any rate, I haven't been to the doctor in a little under a year anyway; they'll probably (be forced to) stay out of it the next time I have an excuse to go, now that I'm 18 (and if they don't, I'm taking your advice). They'll go if the doctor or nurse explicitly asks them to leave without me having to speak up except to agree after it's brought up, at least; they have before.
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You know what really grinds my gears? Ship teasing homosexual characters for the express purpose of the cheap ship love they'll get, and then not following through.

Not that all characters have to be gay, or that all trysts must end in a loving relationship, but... there's a pattern out there in recent times that's disturbing me.

Now, there's been gay characters for a long, long time. And in recent times, they've been given more important roles, and less... comedic/evil/comedic evil. Which is wonderful! However, there's been a really weird trend lately, present in both ho and les yays. Male ho yay shipping is done very wink and nod through bromances, but the stronger two men are teased, the stronger the narrative feels the need to go "yeah, but they have and talk about lady sex all the time", which almost feels like "no homo" that's been represented in a comedic sense in Boondocks. Meanwhile, on the les yay end, we'll see ship tease after ship tease with no real commitment, and it's never really spoken of again or treated with any weight. Whenever women making out (or even making passes) is used, the plot treats it with the following situations:
- Straight girls manipulating straight guys (because men are all idiots who cannot control our sexual urges in the least).
- A "phase", or "experimenting", since obviously when a guy does this stuff, he's gay because that sex counts. Women on women? Doesn't count.
- The psycho lesbian is forcing a kiss on her obsession. This not only has gotten very old, but it's very squicky. I'm-a lookin at you, Dead Rising.


Like... take a look at Dead or Alive.

Now wait, wait, before you throw your mouses into the monitor, hear me out- yes, I know it's a series that relies heavily on fan service and downplays its tight fighting mechanics. However, carefully think about why all lesbian relationships are teased instead of done outright. After all, the marketing for the game relies HEAVILY on implications of lesbian fun times and jiggling breasts. Oh, and explosions. Lots and lots of explosions. So explosions and breast physics aside, it would make sense to have a lesbian relationship. Sure, I might not be thrilled that lesbian characters in relationships would be used as a marketing ploy, but at least Team Ninja would be taking the risk, and saying "Look! We have characters that are lesbians, they kick all sorts of ass, and can be beautiful, cunning, and three-dimensional characters" (okay, hopes for three dimensional characters in a fighting game is laughable, but call me an optimist). Instead, all we have are the teases that Lei Fang and Hitomi have a healthy relationship and that Christie might at some point express her extremely creepy obsession with Helena (sigh... can we be done with the psycho lesbians already, guys? Please?). This communicates to the players that while these women have infatuations with one another, they are all about the dudes and at the end of the day, a lesbian relationship isn't worth entertaining in the slightest.

On the flipside, we have shows like Scrubs. Now don't get me wrong, I love Scrubs, and I like DoA despite the fact I suck at fighting games. But the entirety of Turk and JD's relationship is RIDDLED with "we're close, but not gay". And I'll give you that with Turk's upbringing, being viewed as a gay man might be tough for him, so writing him as gay might be difficult. But they do what guys need to do- share their emotions, be close, and not be afraid that their closeness might be "gay". But with every time JD "acts gay", or their relationship starts to get too close for Turk's comfort, it's treated with a wink and a nod and a laugh, and then we move on. But the Bromance mindset of "no homo" that's very prominent here and in other works that concentrate on Bromances smack of something not kosher. Not only are there almost no risk-taking with gay main characters (because that would never work- except it did, Will & Grace ran for YEARS with much success), but it subtly reminds the viewers that gay is icky, and that if you're too close, it's gay, and therefore you need to remind everyone how straight you are immediately. Even with a more recent example- I get that James T. Kirk is a woman-loving, non-linear thinking badass that will take you down with everything he has. But the recent movies, the sexual tension between Spock and Kirk as teased in the movies is done with the same wink and nod, but no substance.

Needless ship teasing is unnecessary, and feels like a cynical ploy to cache in on the gay-friendly and LGBTQ community without actually making any strides. Because while our muscly action hero and his companion are always bro's, not gay (or even the kind of love platonic best friends have). Because women characters are always available for men characters (and the fans that project themselves upon them) and lesbian relationships are treated as a quick, cheap tease to the audience, not serious characters who have lasting, stable relationships.

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But without the ship teasing in Scrubs we wouldn't have have the song "Guy love between two guys"
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Pierre wrote:
But without the ship teasing in Scrubs we wouldn't have have the song "Guy love between two guys"

Gotta admit, the guys from Avenue Q did it again with that song. It was so amazing. Like I've said- I love the show. It's the only medical show I like, given many other show's penchant for focusing more on the patients and their dark, soul-wrenching one to three episodes wherein they have either a forced medical mystery or some over-the-top injury which requires the show to amp it up more and more each season to hold interest, until it is entirely ridiculous.

But it's a double-edged sword, y'know? For every open male relationship there is on television, it's either gay (but rarely- if ever- a main character), or paved with "no homo" (the majority). It's disconcerting, especially since it's more of a pattern than really any one work. And I can't remember the last time I've ever seen two women in a relationship that was even a secondary character, treated seriously, and treated as more than a phase or experimentation.

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You know what grinds my gears? Happy, ingenuous, careless and unfocused people. Damn, I talk shit sometimes too with my friends, I'm futile sometimes. Everyone is, I guess. But there's a limit to it. When you start not giving a shit about the future, YOUR future, other people's future and the world's future, your ingenuity and lack of seriouness becames dangerous. Nobody needs to be an idealist, a political-oriented person but at least do your fucking part and try to be informed about what happens in your country.
I'm so astonished about how people around me ONLY care about entertainment, shitty celebrities, an empty, shallow life. Their only long-term plans is going to a college, marrying a rich guy/sexy girl, buying a car and living a boring, middle-class and typical fucking TV life forever. They're always talking about meaningless, stupid things and laughing. Perhaps I'm the stupid one for not buying this mind-numbing way of life. It's so easy to stay in the comfort zone and only think about your ass, I should do it too.
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Quote:
Like... take a look at Dead or Alive.


Wait. Wait. Wait.
The lesbian relationship is only hinted at in DoA? I thought Leifang and Hitomi have officially been labelled as being at least semi-exclusive, considering Hitomi is still after Ein Hayate who belongs to Ayane goddamit and Leifang is still in a... shoujo-manga-ish relationship thing with Jann Lee.
And I'm not really kidding about that, I think Hitomi and Leifang are lesbians. I have never seen two female friends in any of my schools licking ice cream from each side at the same time. And I had a pretty freaky school, where some of my female classmates liked to lie on top of each other.

As for Christie in regards to Helena... I feel it got sorta toned down in DoA 5. And I don't think Christie really has any of that interest in Helena, it's like... well, I don't want to say it's like Ghirahim's interest in Link, because those are two guys I ship and think the game actually wanted people to see as a couple (Zelda? Who is Zelda? Ghirahim is the one talking about being tied by a Red String Of Fate with Link.) But I guess the idea is similar. She sees Helena has a funny little target, see her squirm in her anger towards Christie having killed her mother, like a nice little game or an entertaining pet.

As for Avenue Q's "If You Were Gay, That'd Be Okay" song, I love it. The Scrubs "Guy Love Between Two Guys" I don't think I ever really saw it when watching the show, but I stumbled over it and it's neat. Although, being a Yaoi Fangirl, I do have to say I don't think any emotional closeness or friendship between two guys has to automatically mean that they want to jump each other's bones.

C-A
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To your points, which I'll admit are good.

- Lei Fang and Hitomi are implied to be lesbians for the sake of promotional material. I'd say they're coded gay, much like many characters over the years had to be, but... well, it's like the code is just some kid clumsily using pig-latin. However, you'll find that the "I must follow him to beat him" pangs of the classic tsundere (fistdere? Or, since it's tai chi- palmdere?) is with Jan Lee. But my main point is that while Lei Fang and Hitomi are about as heavily teased as Brotag and anything that moves from Persona 4, you'll notice the risk is never taken. The relationship is only teased, but never made full. Like I said earlier: it's not that it's fanservice, it's that it's used expressly for the appearances of having a lesbian couple without actually having to do so. I'd be less cynical if there weren't a disturbing pattern of this across all mediums, a case of creators wanting to have their cake without actually having cake and pretending it doesn't exist.
But yeah, in my head canon, they are as well.

- I know no one reads the manual anymore, but read the manual. I remember reading in DOAX2 (lolTeenHormones. I sold it since, so I can't look back, since I am now the mature age of TWENTY FOUR~ which is totally different because... of somethign) and in DOA4 where they put in her character description/reason for being here that she's following Helena and something along the lines of "this strange feeling she has about her". I dunno if it's more explicit in the Japanese manuals, but that's all but saying it. And Christie also wants to kill Helena. Another psycho lesbian archetype like Miharu from Baka & Test, Joanne (I think her name was) from Dead Rising, and those two characters I can't remember their names from waste-of-my-time Rin of Mnemosyne (which is probably the squickiest of all of them by the end).

- Ghirahim... is from a game I've never played. I'll take your word on it, but I still haven't played Skyward Sword.

- I love both of those songs. Avenue Q is one of my favorite musicals (but then again, that's a long list), and the duo behind that did the Scrubs musical episode, which was amazing. And neither do I, but current heteronormative squicky norms that sadly a lot of people carry influence both creators and the creative process. Creators that don't know any better will subscribe to the thought process naturally. Creators that do know better are generally either afraid of it themselves, or are asked to go back and change things by executives fearing loss of demographics or an audience revolt.
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I bought X2 about four years ago - my second copy, actually, since my first copy's disc somehow got a scratch on it, that rendered it to stop loading at Daytime of the 2nd Day - and while I did read the manual, I probably didn't pay that much attention to it. Mostly to the favorite color or similar. (I am looking forward to any potential chance of a DoAX3 being made... thinking of X3 with the DoA5 graphics would be amazing... plus, no more "N/A" ages for anyone since everyone is above 18 now, you prudes who think a 16 year old cannot be sexy!)

Quote:
Creators that don't know any better will subscribe to the thought process naturally. Creators that do know better are generally either afraid of it themselves, or are asked to go back and change things by executives fearing loss of demographics or an audience revolt.


Well... I can't say if things were more loose in the 90s or they just didn't pay attention, but there were some homosexual pairings back then. Haruka and Michiru from Sailor Moon are officially in a relationship with each other. In both Manga and Anime. I know that the American Anime massacred it and screwed it up and ended up making them cousins... but without removing some hints, so they are kind of incestuous cousins... Good job, Moral Guardians!

Anyhow, I think Creators tend to not go fully into the direction of officially labelling one or even two characters as homosexual, mostly because... for one, Moral Guardians would be outraged. Which I don't understand, no matter how much anyone may try, they cannot keep homosexuality away from any kids their whole lives. Plus, they'll eventually figure things out themselves. For another, I guess they may think that, by having a hero or a companion labelled as a homosexual, that character will instantly be labelled as Queer and incapable of being taken Seriously. He'll be turned into Comic Relief. (And I understand your annoyance with P4... I was so pissed when I learned I couldn't get Narukami to hook up with Yosuke... they were so obviously interested in each other!)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
I bought X2 about four years ago - my second copy, actually, since my first copy's disc somehow got a scratch on it, that rendered it to stop loading at Daytime of the 2nd Day - and while I did read the manual, I probably didn't pay that much attention to it. Mostly to the favorite color or similar. (I am looking forward to any potential chance of a DoAX3 being made... thinking of X3 with the DoA5 graphics would be amazing... plus, no more "N/A" ages for anyone since everyone is above 18 now, you prudes who think a 16 year old cannot be sexy!)

Quote:
Creators that don't know any better will subscribe to the thought process naturally. Creators that do know better are generally either afraid of it themselves, or are asked to go back and change things by executives fearing loss of demographics or an audience revolt.


Well... I can't say if things were more loose in the 90s or they just didn't pay attention, but there were some homosexual pairings back then. Haruka and Michiru from Sailor Moon are officially in a relationship with each other. In both Manga and Anime. I know that the American Anime massacred it and screwed it up and ended up making them cousins... but without removing some hints, so they are kind of incestuous cousins... Good job, Moral Guardians!

Anyhow, I think Creators tend to not go fully into the direction of officially labelling one or even two characters as homosexual, mostly because... for one, Moral Guardians would be outraged. Which I don't understand, no matter how much anyone may try, they cannot keep homosexuality away from any kids their whole lives. Plus, they'll eventually figure things out themselves. For another, I guess they may think that, by having a hero or a companion labelled as a homosexual, that character will instantly be labelled as Queer and incapable of being taken Seriously. He'll be turned into Comic Relief. (And I understand your annoyance with P4... I was so pissed when I learned I couldn't get Narukami to hook up with Yosuke... they were so obviously interested in each other!)

C-A


Oh, 16 year olds can be sexy. It just becomes very uncomfortable to admit once you hit eighteen. Then things get awkward. Very awkward.

Anyway, you outlined quite articulately (and to my disappointment, more concisely than I did, I need to work on that) my point.

As for Narukami (I keep forgetting his name) and Yosuke, I dunno. I comedically ship Narukami with everyone (except Nanako, I do not understand the sickos that ship her with anyone, let alone Adachi). I did the Naoto route, and it got... so squicky. I mean, I was only slightly disappointed they didn't explore FtM transexuals (though from the country that gender-segregates its trains out of necessity, they have other issues to work out, and projecting FtM on her isn't gonna help), I was more disappointed with the narrative of her romance. To romance her means to take decisions away from her, to pidgeonhole her in traditional female roles, and to protect her because she's weak. Not because she's a tiny little thing, not because she's like 14? But because she's a girl. It really makes it as though a lot of her decision making is taken out of her hands. I get that her character wishes to be both female and a detective and treated seriously as both, but the development to get there is either non-existent (off-screen, happens during the time skip), or is done for her (Brotag will make you a woman whether you want to or not).

But nevertheless, stop fighting it, Yosuke~
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Well desiring to be a FtM transexual is not Naoto's problem to begin with... Her problem is similar to Kanji's, that their overall appearance and interests do not fit the Gender Roles, which are apparently still present in Japan. Especially with Naoto, who wants to be in the police, which is a very man-heavy job, even in non-Japanese countries.

I haven't romanced Naoto yet, but the way I read about it, I would feel like a dick going through it. It's nice that she wants to become more feminine, but she herself says that she is not comfortable being seen as a female or wear feminine clothes. And romancing her would cause me to force her into female clothes, force her to act feminine, be more feminine and all that... which is obviously not what she really wants. If she were my girlfriend, I would tell her that if she wants to become more feminine, that is absolutely okay with me, but I wouldn't force her to anything and let her take as much time as she needed.
Which may sound like I'm not taking an interest, but it really is an absolutely personal thing to decide. She'd have my support, but I wouldn't do anything that somehow speeds up the process. All done at her pace. Plus, I rather like her using Boku, mostly because her voice beind one by Romi Park is so cool, it just sounds awesome.

And right? The game makes such hints at Narukami and Yosuke, anyway. I mean, have you seen the scene at the practice Gokon, where the question is asked who they would want as a boyfriend and you pick Yosuke? That just oozed hints. Thankfully, the Animation took that part over. Plus his final Social Link scene... fighting each other. Rolling on the grass. Bodies all over each other. Clothes getting dirty, possibly ripped. Where was I? Oh yes, and them lying on the ground afterwards, sprawled and saying "That was better than words" ... hehe, I find that to be so innuendo-ish.

C-A
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Yeah, cue REO Speedwagon, because Yosuke just can't fight this feeling anymore. But the creators of Persona 4 (particularly Golden) saw the value of massive ship teasing, and it worked like a freakin' charm. Practically everyone is shipped with everyone at some point. Yukiko and her "prince" Chie. Though I like the Clover from 999 Candy Cane from Rumble Roses Amy from Soul CaliburRise x Naoto ship, I... never really saw that one teased as much as the others? Or at least as obviously as Kanji x Naoto.

Well, at least those interested to see FtM still have... Birdo? Though I'm not sure about the state of retconning.

Actually, now that I think about it, when was the last time a (canonically, non-coded) gay character was the protagonist in a game? Like... I know PROMINENT characters that were gay. Veronica from Fallout: NV. Rena could date Precis in the PSP version of Star Ocean: The Second Story (and not Celine? Laaame!). Juhani was gay, but... her content was cut. Jean Ar- okay maybe not the best example. There's a gay student in every clique in Bully. I heard GTA had a character named Gay Tony? I guess? ... I don't really want to count blank slate characters like Shepard, The Warden, Hake. Poison is evil, and so doesn't really count.

... Cloud Strife is bi?
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I don't remember an outright gay character in the protagonist party in a game... only seen-as-gay character I can think of is Gui from Half Prince and that is a light novel/manhua. And technically doesn't count because Prince is a girl in real life, compared to the VR Second Life. He just doesn't know that for majority of the story.

Cloud? Cloud always struck me as just being very Sephiroth-sexual... but I may be biased because I think Cloud and Sephiroth are overrated.

RisexNaoto... I just CAN'T understand how anyone could see that happening. I can't remember a single instance that said anything about those two having anything going on. There is one NPC mentioning Rise and Naoto going home together, but.. that's at a point where we know about Naoto's gender, so it doesn't count.

C-A
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Frankly after the amount of crap Cloud's been through I'd be surprised if his sex drives (and other things) haven't been killed due to being exposed to so much Mako in his life time which is practically the equivalent of radiation.

Though sexuality isn't much of a big deal in games without blank slate characters s'far as I see it. The characters could be gay or bi or whatever in some games and you wouldn't know because there's no actual definition because it's not so important to the story in some cases.

Course the majority of games that do have a romance, yeah it is heterosexual but that's the market playing it safe I guess :yuusaku: I don't especially blame them for not being progressive since it carries so much danger to their business.
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Quote:
Frankly after the amount of crap Cloud's been through I'd be surprised if his sex drives (and other things) haven't been killed due to being exposed to so much Mako in his life time which is practically the equivalent of radiation.


Well according to the developers, Cloud and Tifa did do the nasty under the Highwind prior to the Final Battle. Which I found weird cause I never saw anything really on Cloud's side for Tifa... sure, Tifa has an obvious crush on him but, you know, it didn't feel reciprocated to me, even if I went through the game with Tifa at the highest affection.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Frankly after the amount of crap Cloud's been through I'd be surprised if his sex drives (and other things) haven't been killed due to being exposed to so much Mako in his life time which is practically the equivalent of radiation.


Well according to the developers, Cloud and Tifa did do the nasty under the Highwind prior to the Final Battle. Which I found weird cause I never saw anything really on Cloud's side for Tifa... sure, Tifa has an obvious crush on him but, you know, it didn't feel reciprocated to me, even if I went through the game with Tifa at the highest affection.

C-A


Eh some of the dialogue choices I felt showed you could swing Tifa's way.

For example early on in Seventh Heaven:
Tifa: You sleep well last night?
- Barret's snoring kept me up (BarretxCloud lol)
- Next to you who wouldn't?

So he could get flirty I guess.
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Eh, flirting doesn't automatically mean that you really like someone. Flirting is more like a temporary thing to do cause it's fun... I'm guessing, I personally don't like it when people flirt with me. But others do it for fun.

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CatMuto wrote:
Eh, flirting doesn't automatically mean that you really like someone. Flirting is more like a temporary thing to do cause it's fun... I'm guessing, I personally don't like it when people flirt with me. But others do it for fun.

C-A


....Ok...sure..that sounds a bit grasping at straws...but whatever.

I felt it was easy to see outside that but that was one example.
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Pierre wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Eh, flirting doesn't automatically mean that you really like someone. Flirting is more like a temporary thing to do cause it's fun... I'm guessing, I personally don't like it when people flirt with me. But others do it for fun.

C-A


....Ok...sure..that sounds a bit grasping at straws...but whatever.

I felt it was easy to see outside that but that was one example.


I do it to friends who are fine with me flirting cause they know I'm just having fun with them, so maybe Cat IS onto something here.
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Oh, I wasn't talking about CloudxSeophiroth, I was talking CloudxBarett. I was mostly playing that one for laughs since it's relaly hard to find LGBTQ who aren't broad stereotypes, who are important characters to the plot, who aren't antagonists, and who are likable and marketable.
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Blak The Great wrote:
Pierre wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Eh, flirting doesn't automatically mean that you really like someone. Flirting is more like a temporary thing to do cause it's fun... I'm guessing, I personally don't like it when people flirt with me. But others do it for fun.

C-A


....Ok...sure..that sounds a bit grasping at straws...but whatever.

I felt it was easy to see outside that but that was one example.


I do it to friends who are fine with me flirting cause they know I'm just having fun with them, so maybe Cat IS onto something here.


Yeah I get it, just teasing folks seen it in my own circle of friends but I would definitely say there's more hints throughout the entire game.

At the same time they probably kept those hints on the down low because the player may fancy Aeris more.
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Quote:
At the same time they probably kept those hints on the down low because the player may fancy Aeris more.


Which I never quite understand... for one, why even put in any potential Relationship System/Date Option if they expect the players to focus on Aerith mostly. And for another... why focus on Aerith? I'm not saying Tifa had a deeper, more three dimensional character than Aerith, but Aerith... well, didn't have that much of a character. She was an innocent flowergirl who flirted a bit* and was the last of an ancient tribe... and then died.
And I don't think Aerith's death is a spoiler. But even so... I just can't care about Aerith dying... mostly because she had no great personality shown in the game and nothing in the game actually helped make me care about her. (I cry more at Rachel's death in FF VI than at Aerith's, which apparently is THE most tragic thing to EVER happen in Final Fantasy games)

* And I think she only flirted with Cloud at first because he reminded her of Zack and Zack was the one she opened up to during Crisis Core, forming her slightly flirty side from VII

Quote:
Oh, I wasn't talking about CloudxSeophiroth, I was talking CloudxBarett. I was mostly playing that one for laughs since it's relaly hard to find LGBTQ who aren't broad stereotypes, who are important characters to the plot, who aren't antagonists, and who are likable and marketable.


Wait, Barret is not a stereotype? XD
I never saw much CloudxBarret, mostly because I don't feel like starting the game again and going through all that crap again to see Barret's "date" at the Golden Saucer... but then, I don't really care for Barret that much, he never was much of an interesting character to me... No interest = Don't give a fuck.

C-A
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Well, Barett is an entirely other worry in video games, and slightly more transparent of a worry. But that was the 90's, we've surely evolved video games by-

HERE COMES THE COLE TRAIN!

... Ohright.
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