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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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dangerousoffender wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
In any case, at least take a moment to consider the viewpoints of the children who are doing the bullying. Ask around to get in the know about them. Bullying itself is usually a case of misunderstanding taken to extremes. I've rarely ever had to face bullying in my communities because people have become more socially aware about these sorts of incidents and take precautions to avoid them.


Pierre wrote:
"Cause they can!" = Because they get SOMETHING out of it, maybe a sense of power in which case it might be missing from their lifes. Maybe because it was done to them and they feel it's fair (or even tradition) to do it to others (Ala: College 'hazing').


It wouldn't be that useful to consider the viewpoints of the children who are doing the bullying because nothing can fully justify their behavior. Sure, they may have family and/or psychological problems but let's also take in count that many others have the same issues, yet they don't throw them onto others. The bully's problem, more than anything (especially if we are talking about a teen) is the lack of ethical strenght, and I don't mean to sound moralistic here.


True it doesn't excuse what they are doing and people should still work to stop it. It's just important to understand that it's unlikely people are bullying "Just for bullying's sake", hell very little is done for it's own sake, it's just to realise there are often motives and other problems behind it. The world isn't as black and white as Cat can paint it at times. Granted I know she hates the trope of 'sympathetic villains' but it can reflect reality at times.
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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I understand child psychology to an extent not because I've studied any of it. I've learned through experience.

CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Bullying itself is usually a case of misunderstanding taken to extremes.


Uhh... you've never seen a bully who bullies for the sake of... bullying? They have no good reason or excuse to do it, no misunderstanding, no "falsely insulted" way or anything like that. They just do it because they can. You know, their reason then is that their bully victim "exists". It's just someone going all the way out when they meet someone they just can't stand for no reason. I'm sure you've met them before. A person who, you have no idea why, but you just don't like them. And that kind of bully exists. They just... bully cause they can.

dangerousoffender wrote:
It wouldn't be that useful to consider the viewpoints of the children who are doing the bullying because nothing can fully justify their behavior. Sure, they may have family and/or psychological problems but let's also take in count that many others have the same issues, yet they don't throw them onto others. The bully's problem, more than anything (especially if we are talking about a teen) is the lack of ethical strenght, and I don't mean to sound moralistic here.

They aren't bullies "just because" or for whatever incomprehensible reason. It's simple enough. Those kids bully others because they know they can get away with it. They feel justified thinking "Hey, if the teachers aren't gonna do anything about it, why not?" In the end, it's all about getting attention, power, and respect in the form of fear. (Plus, they clearly have nothing better to do. Even others who share similar problems to these bullies have other BETTER things to do than to waste their time bullying.)

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Quote:
When in doubt, fellow Americans,


...yeah thanks, to all those people who are not American. :payne:

C-A

This news involves a court case in America. I don't see your point.

Pierre wrote:
Also @Rubia
Well done sir, I think it's amazing you'd have that insight as a child to consider bullies in that way.

Ah... I respect that you don't mean anything by it, but I'd like to confirm what you mean by "as a child" here.
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
When in doubt, fellow Americans,


...yeah thanks, to all those people who are not American. :payne:

C-A

This news involves a court case in America. I don't see your point.


Because were discussing bullying in general, like why bullies bully, the effects on the victims etc. This problem also exist outside of the US so saying "fellow Americans" doesn't apply to us. Or are you saying this debate is for US residents only because the court case was based in the US?
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Sjibbey wrote:
Because were discussing bullying in general, like why bullies bully, the effects on the victims etc. This problem also exist outside of the US so saying "fellow Americans" doesn't apply to us. Or are you saying this debate is for US residents only because the court case was based in the US?

What a strange accusation. I discussed several things in my post, not only the issue with bullying. Granted, I could have organized my post a bit better, but I'm well aware that many forum-goers live outside the US. If I hadn't left "fellow Americans" in there, I'd be the idiot for assuming I was conversing with an American audience, so to speak.

If I offended anyone by it, I apologize. Now let's all be friends?
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Er... I know it's been about two weeks since the last post, but I have an opinion to add...

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Uhh... you've never seen a bully who bullies for the sake of... bullying? They have no good reason or excuse to do it, no misunderstanding, no "falsely insulted" way or anything like that. They just do it because they can. You know, their reason then is that their bully victim "exists". It's just someone going all the way out when they meet someone they just can't stand for no reason. I'm sure you've met them before. A person who, you have no idea why, but you just don't like them. And that kind of bully exists. They just... bully cause they can.

dangerousoffender wrote:
It wouldn't be that useful to consider the viewpoints of the children who are doing the bullying because nothing can fully justify their behavior. Sure, they may have family and/or psychological problems but let's also take in count that many others have the same issues, yet they don't throw them onto others. The bully's problem, more than anything (especially if we are talking about a teen) is the lack of ethical strenght, and I don't mean to sound moralistic here.

They aren't bullies "just because" or for whatever incomprehensible reason. It's simple enough. Those kids bully others because they know they can get away with it. They feel justified thinking "Hey, if the teachers aren't gonna do anything about it, why not?" In the end, it's all about getting attention, power, and respect in the form of fear. (Plus, they clearly have nothing better to do. Even others who share similar problems to these bullies have other BETTER things to do than to waste their time bullying.)

Umm... That's exactly it, I think. They bully because they can. They're strong enough to do it and know circumstances allow them get away with it, therefore they can. If either of those were taken out of the picture, would it give them the power and respect they want? Probably not. They'd get attention, maybe, in the form of ridicule and other negative attention. If they had other psychological problems, getting caught or otherwise epically failing at bullying would do absolutely nothing to alleviate their issues, unless masochism was the point of the whole thing.

Then there are the sadists who don't give a damn about whether or not they can get away with it and only care about their ability to cause pain.

I know the world's not black and white, but there are plenty of shades of gray that can be mistaken for either extreme. Doesn't make it any more right, but it's important to note the possibility's there.

PS: yay, someone else who keeps a knife near their bed! I'm not crazy!
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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I doubt anyone ACTUALLY respects a bully.

C-A
Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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idk maybe other bullies??... nah Fine, fear. :payne:
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Apparently I'm dropping by a lot more than I've expected to.

Allow me to ask everyone who's taken a stance in this thread. If you've ever been in a situation in which you're being bullied, think about what you did to respond (or not). Do you consider what would have happened if you opted for a different action? I think of this all the time when I face those situations.

I can offer my answer. They usually don't bother with me because I'm impenetrable. They don't know me enough to hit it where it hurts, and I find them no threat. In fact, what I see bullies make fun of me as is, let's see... (1) being Asian, (2) being a nerd, (3) being quiet, to each one I find no offense and many benefits. Would I be stupid to accept their taunts as complements? And if I would be, what would it matter? I'd be happy maybe for the wrong reasons, they'd be creeped out and stay away from me, and all is well.

Nonetheless, I do wonder what I could accomplish if I had just spoken up and said "I'm flattered you chose me as your target of your anger, and I'm sorry I don't have anything to reply to it." I've always wanted to try that, actually, just to see what happens, but people don't bully me enough. :(

I dislike those views that suggest bullies shouldn't or couldn't be understood. It's as if they refuse to believe their dissenters could possibly be good people. I'm not saying I'm a nice enough person like Mother Teresa or Ghandi for forgive everyone that rubs me the wrong way. I'm just stubborn when it comes to maintaining good relations, even if superficial at first, and they can evolve into better ones that last a long time.

Now that I think about it, I'm so weird that most people, needless to say bullies, don't know how to deal with me. On the other hand, the people I've befriended know I kick ass because of it.

And fwiw, "They're jerks because they can be" is technically different from "They're jerks because they think they can get away with it". One suggests leaving it at that; the other begs a question. "What can we do to convince them to believe otherwise?"

So much food for thought and I can't finish this meal. I'm stuffed on questions.
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Quote:
Nonetheless, I do wonder what I could accomplish if I had just spoken up and said "I'm flattered you chose me as your target of your anger, and I'm sorry I don't have anything to reply to it." I've always wanted to try that, actually, just to see what happens, but people don't bully me enough. :(


Pure logic and thinking makes me say they'd probably laugh at you for using the word flattered, like it's a compliment to be bullied, but also be slightly confused as you are pointing out a weakness/problem of theirs.

Quote:
I dislike those views that suggest bullies shouldn't or couldn't be understood. It's as if they refuse to believe their dissenters could possibly be good people.


I don't think bullies can't be good people on the inside. I just think, "Why should I try to be nice to them and make friends with them (as some parents and teachers are, actually rather dumbly, suggesting) when they've done nothing but make my life hell?" I just think that the wishy-washy, be nice to them, make friends with them or ignore them route doesn't work in the end. Sometimes, bullies don't understand any other language except violence and bullying, so fighting back seems to be a good option at times.

As for me, I was bullied some in school - but at times, I was kind of a bully myself. I didn't actively bully anyone, but I do remember one of my classes had people who were slightly afraid of me. Quite honestly, I have no idea why. At the age of when I was in that class, I was a year younger due to having started school a year early as well as being extremely introverted. I didn't really do anything that would warrant someone to be afraid of me.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Nonetheless, I do wonder what I could accomplish if I had just spoken up and said "I'm flattered you chose me as your target of your anger, and I'm sorry I don't have anything to reply to it." I've always wanted to try that, actually, just to see what happens, but people don't bully me enough. :(


Pure logic and thinking makes me say they'd probably laugh at you for using the word flattered, like it's a compliment to be bullied, but also be slightly confused as you are pointing out a weakness/problem of theirs.

That's the plan. When fighting may not result in victory, seek to distract or lighten the mood. If one must return to the subject, do so when tensions are low... I don't remember who said that, but I think I warped it a bit, so it's original, right?

Quote:
Quote:
I dislike those views that suggest bullies shouldn't or couldn't be understood. It's as if they refuse to believe their dissenters could possibly be good people.


I don't think bullies can't be good people on the inside. I just think, "Why should I try to be nice to them and make friends with them (as some parents and teachers are, actually rather dumbly, suggesting) when they've done nothing but make my life hell?" I just think that the wishy-washy, be nice to them, make friends with them or ignore them route doesn't work in the end. Sometimes, bullies don't understand any other language except violence and bullying, so fighting back seems to be a good option at times.

As for me, I was bullied some in school - but at times, I was kind of a bully myself. I didn't actively bully anyone, but I do remember one of my classes had people who were slightly afraid of me. Quite honestly, I have no idea why. At the age of when I was in that class, I was a year younger due to having started school a year early as well as being extremely introverted. I didn't really do anything that would warrant someone to be afraid of me.

C-A

It's less about "being nice" to those people and more about "showing it" - be resilient but let them down slowly, so to speak. You're free to mutter anything you want under your breath, but if others can see you acting courteously, they'll be less likely to bother you. What's important here is convincing the other party that you aren't easily riled up. Bullies don't only target the "weak"; they also target those who snap easily and can find any chance to blame things on them. That's actually the easier way they can "get away with it".

As for the ones who won't stop bothering you, ask them what they want. If they can't give you a straight answer, tell them to figure out what else they want and let them get to that.

Hmm. Don't take my word for it, but I think it may be because people are taught to be cautious around introverted people - be it through their family & friends, the media, or word of mouth. It's not because these sorts of people are fragile and weak; rather, it's because they hide a lot that it's hard to tell what they're capable of. Introverted people aren't always the best students in school or the most cooperative employees, for example, and it's a pretty obvious weakness that bullies can target. Poor grades and work ethic lead to a lack of self-confidence and a tendency to vent. Heaven forbid that one just happens to be working with a douche for a manager, but there's no helping it a lot of times.

I'm not saying you or anyone else here has that problem, but it is pretty common. I'm just glad I can be around to lend someone advice. If anyone still disagrees with me, I'm up to answer them.
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Quote:
It's less about "being nice" to those people and more about "showing it" - be resilient but let them down slowly, so to speak. You're free to mutter anything you want under your breath, but if others can see you acting courteously, they'll be less likely to bother you.


Ehehe... no. If you act courteously towards people, including bullies, they'll see it as a sign of weakness and bother you all the more. Being nice to bullies, as I said, is a tactic that never made sense to me. I don't want to be FRIENDS with people who bother me all the time, I want them to leave me the freak alone. And acting courteously towards them isn't the way to do it.

Ignoring them? That'll just result in the pushing and poking and being all, "Stop ignoring me. What are you, blind and deaf? Stop ignoring me. Stop ignoring me." and just pushing you more and more. Really, I can't blame a bully victim at all for eventually snapping and punching a bully back. Or, in a manga case I saw, grabbing a pen and stabbing it into their eye.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
It's less about "being nice" to those people and more about "showing it" - be resilient but let them down slowly, so to speak. You're free to mutter anything you want under your breath, but if others can see you acting courteously, they'll be less likely to bother you.


Ehehe... no. If you act courteously towards people, including bullies, they'll see it as a sign of weakness and bother you all the more. Being nice to bullies, as I said, is a tactic that never made sense to me. I don't want to be FRIENDS with people who bother me all the time, I want them to leave me the freak alone. And acting courteously towards them isn't the way to do it.

Ignoring them? That'll just result in the pushing and poking and being all, "Stop ignoring me. What are you, blind and deaf? Stop ignoring me. Stop ignoring me." and just pushing you more and more. Really, I can't blame a bully victim at all for eventually snapping and punching a bully back. Or, in a manga case I saw, grabbing a pen and stabbing it into their eye.

C-A

It's only a "sign of weakness" if the victim agrees that it is. That means, the victim has submitted to the bullies' accusations long before the retaliation could even happen. It's not a good place to be in. And believe me, punching them in the face isn't going to make them leave you alone either. They'll just find some other time to bother you, probably bring even more people to hound you. Then it's only more trouble to have to punch every one of them in the face. (It's also the perfect way to drive everyone else away from you.)

Acting courteously isn't the same as being a doormat. A doormat is someone who submits to the abuse and never confronts it as a problem. Making light of their aggression or ignoring them because they're not worth your time are completely different.

And when you leave and they say you're running away, just tell them: "What are you gonna do? Follow me? I already have a dog, thanks." And then, you walk away calmly. If they start chasing you around the school, you can just tell your teacher why you were late to class. Getting a few bruises out of it would only support your claim. :)

Joking aside, it's important to build up emotional resistance. If you don't show any sign of being fazed, the bullies can't do anything to you aside from getting violent. Even if it's counterintuitive, getting a fist to the face doesn't hurt nearly as much as knowing you submitted to them your weakness. One lasts a few days to a few weeks; the other lasts for eternity. Pick your poison.

If it's not too much of a hassle, the victims can even take self-defense lessons so they won't get beaten up at all. Sure, not everyone gets to learn this stuff, but at least everyone can learn to endure through suffering and keep a cool head throughout it all. People tend to survive longer that way, you know?
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Re: Kid bullied, and charged with a FELONYTopic%20Title
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Quote:
(It's also the perfect way to drive everyone else away from you.)


Oh yeah. Cause after being bullied, I'd be so trustful towards other people who want to get close to me. :ron:

Quote:
Joking aside, it's important to build up emotional resistance. If you don't show any sign of being fazed, the bullies can't do anything to you aside from getting violent. Even if it's counterintuitive, getting a fist to the face doesn't hurt nearly as much as knowing you submitted to them your weakness. One lasts a few days to a few weeks; the other lasts for eternity. Pick your poison.


Hence I said I'd rather be known as violent than someone who doesn't do anything against Bullies. Sure, you may say that giving them witty lines and mocking them in a subtle fashion helps, but all it does is give YOU a little giggle. It doesn't STOP them. And after a while, you really just want them to leave the fuck alone. And in such a case, hitting back - maybe even going so far as breaking something of theirs (bones, not possessions) - would hopefully get the fucking message of "BACK THE FUCK OFF!!" across.

C-A
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Cat your philosophy falls apart the second the victim isn't physically capable of fighting back effectively against their aggressors.

It falls apart for other reasons before that...but you shrug those ones off. Not everyone is physically strong enough to fight back against bullies...particularly since bullies might BE bullies to their physical advantages over others in the first place.
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Schools will always have stairs in them that are easy to fall down from. And even a not very strong person can have the strength to tackle someone and push them down. (And yes, bullies can stand at the top of the stairs if they're doing the dumb "can't walk past here unless you pay" route)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Schools will always have stairs in them that are easy to fall down from. And even a not very strong person can have the strength to tackle someone and push them down. (And yes, bullies can stand at the top of the stairs if they're doing the dumb "can't walk past here unless you pay" route)

C-A


All dependent on circumstance, you're also assuming the bully ISN'T strong enough to just push you aside. I'd agree that anyone can tackle someone down stairs but not without going down the stairs themselves. The bully might be faster on his feet and step aside and throw the individual down the stairs. The bully might have cohorts who'd spot the attack in advance and warn him or just stop you.

No Cat, violence is not an answer.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Apparently I'm dropping by a lot more than I've expected to.

Allow me to ask everyone who's taken a stance in this thread. If you've ever been in a situation in which you're being bullied, think about what you did to respond (or not). Do you consider what would have happened if you opted for a different action? I think of this all the time when I face those situations.

I can offer my answer. They usually don't bother with me because I'm impenetrable. They don't know me enough to hit it where it hurts, and I find them no threat. In fact, what I see bullies make fun of me as is, let's see... (1) being Asian, (2) being a nerd, (3) being quiet, to each one I find no offense and many benefits. Would I be stupid to accept their taunts as complements? And if I would be, what would it matter? I'd be happy maybe for the wrong reasons, they'd be creeped out and stay away from me, and all is well.

Nonetheless, I do wonder what I could accomplish if I had just spoken up and said "I'm flattered you chose me as your target of your anger, and I'm sorry I don't have anything to reply to it." I've always wanted to try that, actually, just to see what happens, but people don't bully me enough. :(

I dislike those views that suggest bullies shouldn't or couldn't be understood. It's as if they refuse to believe their dissenters could possibly be good people. I'm not saying I'm a nice enough person like Mother Teresa or Ghandi for forgive everyone that rubs me the wrong way. I'm just stubborn when it comes to maintaining good relations, even if superficial at first, and they can evolve into better ones that last a long time.

Now that I think about it, I'm so weird that most people, needless to say bullies, don't know how to deal with me. On the other hand, the people I've befriended know I kick ass because of it.

And fwiw, "They're jerks because they can be" is technically different from "They're jerks because they think they can get away with it". One suggests leaving it at that; the other begs a question. "What can we do to convince them to believe otherwise?"

So much food for thought and I can't finish this meal. I'm stuffed on questions.



I'm not one to answer this, since I've never been bullied myself... I didn't have a good reputation at school in my early teens, though.

According to my personal observation, bullies want more than hurt someone with words... They want to make someone feel excluded from an environment, that's why they tend to pick on people who have few friends/trouble socializing and put their "buddies" against the bullied one. Even if you personally don't mind being called a "nerd", how would you feel if a group of people constantly bothered and badmouthed you (maybe on a daily basis) because they think of you as a "nerd", considering a scenario where you don't have anyone to support you in that particular environment or at least someone who can see how stupid they're acting? No, ignoring them or trying to be nice doesn't work out, it's not as simple as that. Believe me, most of the bullies are determined as hell to destroy their target's life or at least making it impossible for them to live a normal life in school, work or wherever that is happening.

Look, I kinda understand your point. You don't like to be violent or to create unnecessary conflict, neither do I. But I believe people have the right to demand respect even if they have to do it using drastic measures, after all nobody deserves to waste time tolerating a horrible situation which cannot be solved using simple diplomacy.
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Pierre wrote:
No Cat, violence is not an answer.


Prove to me it isn't. If you go to the authorities, you're a chicken who can't deal with anything yourself. If you tell your parents, similar, but then it gets dirtier as the parents get involved and get at each other's throats. If you mock them, nothing changes. If you ignore them, nothing changes and could get worse to "get a reaction out of you". If you try it like the kid in the article, you did something wrong and get a worse punishment than a potential suspension from school for fighting.

It's like, whatever you do, you're screwed. Well, if you're screwed either way, better make sure that they remember you as having caused them pain, too.

Quote:
Look, I kinda understand your point. You don't like to be violent or to create unnecessary conflict, neither do I. But I believe people have the right to demand respect even if they have to do it using drastic measures, after all nobody deserves to waste time tolerating a horrible situation which cannot be solved using simple diplomacy.


Why demand respect? Okay, I give everyone respect automatically. It's like being polite to everyone you meet the first time, it's just something you do. Common courtesy. The respect and politeness disappear, depending on their actions and behavior. So if some bully or some asshole came to me and demanded I respect him, I'd expect him to earn it first.
I know what you mean, but demanding respect when you technically did nothing to earn it, is a bit weird.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
No Cat, violence is not an answer.


Prove to me it isn't. If you go to the authorities, you're a chicken who can't deal with anything yourself. If you tell your parents, similar, but then it gets dirtier as the parents get involved and get at each other's throats. If you mock them, nothing changes. If you ignore them, nothing changes and could get worse to "get a reaction out of you". If you try it like the kid in the article, you did something wrong and get a worse punishment than a potential suspension from school for fighting.

It's like, whatever you do, you're screwed. Well, if you're screwed either way, better make sure that they remember you as having caused them pain, too.

C-A


I believe you're both right on this one. Like Cat's saying: diplomacy doesn't work. Either directly (bully) or indirectly (through parents or school) won't help the victim much. If things could be talked out with a 'bully' it's more likely you just have a disagreement. Also dealing with bullies would be hella easy if bullies would simply stop after being asked by the victim. Also the victim needs to have a certain mental fortitude to confront his bully, which is also pretty rare.
Parents often have an attitude of: my kid doesn't do stuff like that or he doesn't act like that at home when it comes to bullying. Admitting their child is a bully is often interpreted by them as: they are saying I didn't raise my kid properly. So they get defensive about it and like Cat said, often parents lash out at each other than take a look in the mirror or have a serious conversation with their child (this goes for bully and victim by the way)
Finally schools need to make money to continue to exist. This means that they have a quota of students they need to obtain each year. If your school gets negative publicity due a bullying incident (like the videotape from the case mentioned at the start of this topic) then it will be a lot harder to get the same number of students. If they don't acknowledge there is a problem then all the damage will be minimized to only the bully victim. It's a cold but rational decision.

So is violence the answer? Afraid not like Pierre said. If you aren't stronger than the bully, you're fucked. If you are stronger but they assault you in a group, you're fucked. This also negates Cat's theory about pushing a bully down the stairs, since I doubt anyone could simply push multiple people of a staircase. And even if you succeeded the bully victim would be in constant fear of the revenge of the bully (group).

So basically nothing works. All you can do is try to make the best of it (or make it as painless as possible) and endure it.
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since I doubt anyone could simply push multiple people of a staircase. And even if you succeeded the bully victim would be in constant fear of the revenge of the bully (group).


I was thinking more of those bully groups that have a leader. Take out the leader (the chicken's head) and the rest will not know what to do (the body running around)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
since I doubt anyone could simply push multiple people of a staircase. And even if you succeeded the bully victim would be in constant fear of the revenge of the bully (group).


I was thinking more of those bully groups that have a leader. Take out the leader (the chicken's head) and the rest will not know what to do (the body running around)

C-A


Except when the leader gets up bruised, recovers, and the gang beats you senseless in retaliation. I've seen bullies go so far as to be suspended for the damage they've caused.

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Prove to me it isn't. If you go to the authorities, you're a chicken who can't deal with anything yourself. If you tell your parents, similar, but then it gets dirtier as the parents get involved and get at each other's throats. If you mock them, nothing changes. If you ignore them, nothing changes and could get worse to "get a reaction out of you". If you try it like the kid in the article, you did something wrong and get a worse punishment than a potential suspension from school for fighting.

It's like, whatever you do, you're screwed. Well, if you're screwed either way, better make sure that they remember you as having caused them pain, too.


I thought I already did? By stating how if you fight back physically you are screwed either way because A: You either win the fight and get suspended and reprimanded with no guarantee they won't come back and beat you in retaliation or B: You lose and they beat you worse in retaliation and the school still looks at you unfavourably because you STARTED the fight.

It's a lose-lose situation, there is no successful outcome from fighting (especially with the level of violence you suggest) therefore it is not the answer.

Also "If you go to the authorities, you're a chicken who can't deal with anything yourself" ? That's like something THE BULLY would say, it doesn't mean that at all it's such a juvenile way of thinking. You're a pragmatist right Cat? There's people who outnumber you and are likely physically stronger than you so you are likely to lose a fight in any given situation. It's the logical solution to bring in outside help for it, it doesn't mean you are 'weak' working with others is an important skill in life.


Contemplate this: This is just a suggestion, sadly thanks to the nature of it we'll never be able to know the outcome. It's not uncommon knowledge that bad news draws more attention in the press than good news. It's not that good news goes unreported but the biggest stories in the paper are normally of bad things.

So, how likely is it we are to hear of bullying solutions solved diplomatically? It's easy to consider that it's all negative based on articles like this one above and others where the school has failed to successfully intervene. Does that mean that the schools and the diplomatic approach never work? No of course not. Good things don't often get reported because normally it means things are running as planned, there is no notable change in the status quo worth reporting. It'd be like reporting every day your breathing is still going normally.

Just because articles like this exist doesn't mean diplomacy and consulting a higher power to deal with bullying are woefully ineffective as you seem to believe Cat.
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dangerousoffender wrote:
According to my personal observation, bullies want more than hurt someone with words... They want to make someone feel excluded from an environment, that's why they tend to pick on people who have few friends/trouble socializing and put their "buddies" against the bullied one. Even if you personally don't mind being called a "nerd", how would you feel if a group of people constantly bothered and badmouthed you (maybe on a daily basis) because they think of you as a "nerd", considering a scenario where you don't have anyone to support you in that particular environment or at least someone who can see how stupid they're acting? No, ignoring them or trying to be nice doesn't work out, it's not as simple as that. Believe me, most of the bullies are determined as hell to destroy their target's life or at least making it impossible for them to live a normal life in school, work or wherever that is happening.

Not all bullies are the same. Do you understand the risks they take by being that damn persistent? Most people wouldn't dare, and those who do don't usually get away with it. The main reason this article attracted so much attention is because it's out of the norm.

If you're asking me, personally, then I've already made my point. I face bullies alone, if I even meet them. These people are always talking behind my back, but have never once confronted me. Not once. I have done nothing at all to let them fear me because I've always been the "nice girl". Why is that? They're afraid of something, but it's not me.

I can understand how someone else in my situation would snap. If I knew I could help them, I'd suggest they take their minds off of it for a bit and let them cool off. It's not a bad thing to be called a "nerd". It's a casual term for someone who is particularly fanatic about something and studies a lot into it to become like a human encyclopedia on the subject... or so I believe it is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
Look, I kinda understand your point. You don't like to be violent or to create unnecessary conflict, neither do I. But I believe people have the right to demand respect even if they have to do it using drastic measures, after all nobody deserves to waste time tolerating a horrible situation which cannot be solved using simple diplomacy.

You're right to believe that, but I'm just saying it's not the only way to solve it. Have a little more faith in diplomacy.

CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
No Cat, violence is not an answer.


Prove to me it isn't. If you go to the authorities, you're a chicken who can't deal with anything yourself. If you tell your parents, similar, but then it gets dirtier as the parents get involved and get at each other's throats. If you mock them, nothing changes. If you ignore them, nothing changes and could get worse to "get a reaction out of you". If you try it like the kid in the article, you did something wrong and get a worse punishment than a potential suspension from school for fighting.

It's like, whatever you do, you're screwed. Well, if you're screwed either way, better make sure that they remember you as having caused them pain, too.

Cat, I think you're going a little overboard. Parents can claw at each other's throats over their kids, but in that case, it's no longer just a bullying incident. The kid in this article was suspended, but he still can find another school. The circumstances around his penalty are highly debatable, so he still has a second chance.

If you're remembered for getting violent like he did, though, that second chance is still pretty slim. If he hadn't gotten in a brawl, he could have asked the principal to move to another school, and they'd work something out. Yes, he was in "special ed", but his parents could have done something more to help him. Avoiding bullies is the best way to stay out of trouble. They can't hurt you if you're out of reach, and you're in no risk at lashing out at them. Stalemates aren't always just stalemates.

Sjibbey wrote:
So basically nothing works. All you can do is try to make the best of it (or make it as painless as possible) and endure it.

No, the best you can do is endure it together with company. Not only will the burden of fear be lessened with more people to support you, but there's a natural safety in numbers.

But, ya know, your avatar says quite a lot. If you're capable of facing giant energy blasts that will blow you to smithereens by charging right into it, then you've already got everything you need to face bullies.

But just as security, Nick does have Maya for backup. She helps out in a lot of jams.

Pierre wrote:
Contemplate this: This is just a suggestion, sadly thanks to the nature of it we'll never be able to know the outcome. It's not uncommon knowledge that bad news draws more attention in the press than good news. It's not that good news goes unreported but the biggest stories in the paper are normally of bad things.

So, how likely is it we are to hear of bullying solutions solved diplomatically? It's easy to consider that it's all negative based on articles like this one above and others where the school has failed to successfully intervene. Does that mean that the schools and the diplomatic approach never work? No of course not. Good things don't often get reported because normally it means things are running as planned, there is no notable change in the status quo worth reporting. It'd be like reporting every day your breathing is still going normally.

Just because articles like this exist doesn't mean diplomacy and consulting a higher power to deal with bullying are woefully ineffective as you seem to believe Cat.

Good things are reported on the occasion, though, just to make sure the public doesn't lose faith in humanity. The damage is done, though.

But situations aren't as bleak as they seem for that kid. He's got the masses on his side.
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Good things are reported on the occasion, though, just to make sure the public doesn't lose faith in humanity. The damage is done, though.

But situations aren't as bleak as they seem for that kid. He's got the masses on his side.


I know the kid will have a lot of sympathy and people will understand why he did what he did, if anything the article damns the school for their actions.

Point was more, it's not that diplomacy doesn't work it's just newspapers are far less likely to report on systems working as expected rather than miscarriages of justice.
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I haven't read the last few posts, but I don't think that'll be necessary seeing how you're just repeating yourselves.

I must say that I agree with Cat in most of his mosts, but I do so with Rubia. I'm from Spain, and thanks God I here it usually never crosses the line to physical bullying. In my school, classes are divided in bilingual and non-bilingual classes. I, despite my high level of English, am in the second group. Obviously, in non-bilingual classes there are all the jerks who laugh at others and makes it impossible to learn anything. My friends are in another class and I'm kind of alone everytime. In the first month of the year, I was their target. I'm the only serious child in my class, the one with the highest grades in my year and I'm alone everytime, reading. They never missed the chance to take my book and do some stupid thing with it. However, I just stood calm, laughed a bit with them while they were trying to bully me, and the next moth they didn't even try to do so. There's the jerk who still pokes me sometimes, but it's not the big deal. In fact, of the 8 jerks in my class, seven of them don't even remember my name and they don't talk to me. They found me to me un-bulliable (I made it out, it isn't in any dictionary for sure lol), ergo, they left me alone.

However.

There's this Russian boy who, despite him being a year older than me, is much shorter than me. His parents are two homosexual men. He was in my class last year, and twice a week there was some incident with this boy, because he was being bullied. The teacher did their best, but they couldn't do nothing in the end. Last month, a woman I know told me if I knew anything about this boy. I was surprised she knew him. She told me a friend of her son told her about how he saw that boy being followed by, more or less, twelve children. They follow him on the street and even hit him. I don't know if his parents are doing anything about it, but I must agree with Cat that he should fight back. The school has tried, his parents have (hopefully) tried, and still, violence is the last option left.

--------------------------------------

Back on topic, I think schools should talk more about bullying. Not about the ''what it is'' and ''come to your parents or teachers'' thing, but about which legal actions can you take to fight it. It's because of this that this incident happened. In fact, I once thought about doing the recording thing myself if it ever came to that. I do not know anything about law, you see. I'm only fourteen, but damn I want to know these kind of things.
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There's this Russian boy who, despite him being a year older than me, is much shorter than me. His parents are two homosexual men. He was in my class last year, and twice a week there was some incident with this boy, because he was being bullied. The teacher did their best, but they couldn't do nothing in the end. Last month, a woman I know told me if I knew anything about this boy. I was surprised she knew him. She told me a friend of her son told her about how he saw that boy being followed by, more or less, twelve children. They follow him on the street and even hit him. I don't know if his parents are doing anything about it, but I must agree with Cat that he should fight back. The school has tried, his parents have (hopefully) tried, and still, violence is the last option left.


So you think if he turned and fought back he could overcome 12 other children?

:ron: Your own example shows how you overcame bullying with willpower like Rubia recommended and you'd still encourage a child to fight a battle he'd certainly lose?

Cat's point's are inherently flawed, her points are catchy because, yeah we do want to see the bullies have pain inflicted on them the same way they do to others. However it's not a valid tactic as violence breeds violence and bullies are often bullies in part because they have the advantage in a physical situation be it from size or numbers. Even if you win, the school will hit back at you and you'll still lose ESPECIALLY if your attacks are as extreme as Cat's plans.
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Pierre wrote:
So you think if he turned and fought back he could overcome 12 other children?

Your own example shows how you overcame bullying with willpower like Rubia recommended and you'd still encourage a child to fight a battle he'd certainly lose?

Cat's point's are inherently flawed, her points are catchy because, yeah we do want to see the bullies have pain inflicted on them the same way they do to others. However it's not a valid tactic as violence breeds violence and bullies are often bullies in part because they have the advantage in a physical situation be it from size or numbers. Even if you win, the school will hit back at you and you'll still lose ESPECIALLY if your attacks are as extreme as Cat's plans.

I forgot to mention, he did fight back sometimes. And usually the thing calmed down for a while. Obviously, I wasn't talking about him fighting the twelve at once. When he fought, he fought one of them because of certain circumstances. And it did work, for a while at least. (Except because of him doing that at school and getting expelled. It would've been less problematic if he did so in the street... :ron: I haven't heard of him in a while, though.)
Obviously, I'm not talking about stabbing them or anything. It depends on how the bullied is. I'm a cold person who personally doesn't give a fuck. This boy was been bullied for some time and reacted the wrong way either by talking to the teachers (which ended up being problematic) or fighting back more people than he could.

It's kind of strange because a year ago you could sometimes see him and the bullies being friends...
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MijuZS wrote:
Pierre wrote:
So you think if he turned and fought back he could overcome 12 other children?

Your own example shows how you overcame bullying with willpower like Rubia recommended and you'd still encourage a child to fight a battle he'd certainly lose?

Cat's point's are inherently flawed, her points are catchy because, yeah we do want to see the bullies have pain inflicted on them the same way they do to others. However it's not a valid tactic as violence breeds violence and bullies are often bullies in part because they have the advantage in a physical situation be it from size or numbers. Even if you win, the school will hit back at you and you'll still lose ESPECIALLY if your attacks are as extreme as Cat's plans.

I forgot to mention, he did fight back sometimes. And usually the thing calmed down for a while. Obviously, I wasn't talking about him fighting the twelve at once. When he fought, he fought one of them because of certain circumstances. And it did work, for a while at least. (Except because of him doing that at school and getting expelled. It would've been less problematic if he did so in the street... :ron: I haven't heard of him in a while, though.)
Obviously, I'm not talking about stabbing them or anything. It depends on how the bullied is. I'm a cold person who personally doesn't give a fuck. This boy was been bullied for some time and reacted the wrong way either by talking to the teachers (which ended up being problematic) or fighting back more people than he could.

It's kind of strange because a year ago you could sometimes see him and the bullies being friends...


Like I suggested, violence is not an acceptable answer.
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Pierre wrote:
Like I suggested, violence is not an acceptable answer.


So quite honestly, what would you suggest as a solution if neither the teachers nor the kid's family are taking effective measures to help the situation? The kid should just stay unreactive and wait for "authorities" (who haven't been helpful so far) to save him?
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dangerousoffender wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Like I suggested, violence is not an acceptable answer.


So quite honestly, what would you suggest as a solution if neither the teachers nor the kid's family are taking effective measures to help the situation? The kid should just stay unreactive and wait for "authorities" (who haven't been helpful so far) to save him?


Pfft you can't say that the teachers nor the family won't be able to help all the time. That's when the system is running smoothly so of course those moments get less notice because papers love to report bad news.

In any case building mental fortitude, contacting the authorities or (second) worst case scenario, doing nothing at all, is better than enacting violence against them because the outcomes are either you win and get expelled or suspended for violence which marks you for life or you lose and get beaten badly. Either way you aggravate the people antagonising you.

What you think because you beat them in a fight they'll leave you alone forever? You think they 'Fear' you? Maybe if you take the extreme methods Cat suggested but those will land you in jail instead of just suspension. There's no guarantee if you win it's the end the bully or bullies might return in greater numbers or with a weapon. Granted that's the sort of thing that will get them expelled or jailed but when you are bleeding out on the pavement because a bully took a knife from home for the revenge shot I doubt that knowledge will be of much comfort to you.
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His parents are two homosexual men.


Durr, but how can two men have a kid, buuh~ Okay, okay, enough playing dumb. Just had to say that. :gant:

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Back on topic, I think schools should talk more about bullying. Not about the ''what it is'' and ''come to your parents or teachers'' thing, but about which legal actions can you take to fight it. It's because of this that this incident happened. In fact, I once thought about doing the recording thing myself if it ever came to that. I do not know anything about law, you see. I'm only fourteen, but damn I want to know these kind of things.


But this is a problem. Not every kid is even gonna consider legal actions. Mostly cause they don't know what they are, and quite frankly, legal ways can be incredibly complex. Even trying to dumb them down can confuse people if they don't know the basis of it. "Legalese" my mother calls it. And I doubt many young teens (though you seem to be an exception) would use legal actions cause... it's the law. They don't know it, they don't care about it, hitting or ignoring seems much faster and "easier".

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So you think if he turned and fought back he could overcome 12 other children?


Nobody's saying anything about overcoming them. Just fighting back already proves that you have a backbone and aren't a total doormat that they can do whatever they want to and you'll just take it. Yeah, you might end up getting beaten - so? At least you know that you fought back and (tried to) stand up to them. That alone can do things to one's ego. In the good way.

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In any case building mental fortitude, contacting the authorities or (second) worst case scenario, doing nothing at all, is better than enacting violence against them


But if you either ask for help or ignore them, that'll just make you look like a pussy. Yes, I'm using bully logic here, but that's the way things go for them. If you fight back, fine, they might still go for you, but you might be seen as a "more pleasurable" target cause then there's the chance of consequence for them. Even going so far as being like a "rival" to them.

If you tell the authorities, things'll get worse. You told on them. You think that'll fix things? No! They'll still cream you and beat you up cause you had the audacity to tell on them and they got reprimanded (or suspended for a few days) What, after that suspension, they'll leave you alone cause you told? Doesn't matter, they'll come back and get you.

So seriously, Pierre. Telling authorities? Revenge comeback from them. Beating them? Revenge comeback from them. Not doing anything/ignoring them? That'll just cause worse mental and physical scars than at least trying to stop it. Doesn't matter what you do, you're fucked.

C-A
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But this is a problem. Not every kid is even gonna consider legal actions. Mostly cause they don't know what they are, and quite frankly, legal ways can be incredibly complex. Even trying to dumb them down can confuse people if they don't know the basis of it. "Legalese" my mother calls it. And I doubt many young teens (though you seem to be an exception) would use legal actions cause... it's the law. They don't know it, they don't care about it, hitting or ignoring seems much faster and "easier".


Yes Kids might not be aware of it, but parents will and I should sincerely hope the school faculties are aware of such things in place for bullying as well. In any case that's exactly what Miju was saying...that schools SHOULD tell kids their legal actions in case of bullying. It might seem a waste of time to the non-bullied population but you can bet those who do consider it a way out will pay attention and ask for more information if it comes to it.

Quote:
Nobody's saying anything about overcoming them. Just fighting back already proves that you have a backbone and aren't a total doormat that they can do whatever they want to and you'll just take it. Yeah, you might end up getting beaten - so? At least you know that you fought back and (tried to) stand up to them. That alone can do things to one's ego. In the good way.


Or it can do horrible things to ones ego, they can beat you, you could conclude that fighting back is hopeless (called learned helplessness). Bones might get broken, they might piss on you once they've beaten you. Seriously Cat you of ALL people have talked on and on about inner strength and not caring what other people think of you. Why should you have to prove to anyone you have a backbone when you know yourself you are strong?

Just because you think it'd go well for you doesn't mean it'd work for everyone else.

Quote:
But if you either ask for help or ignore them, that'll just make you look like a pussy. Yes, I'm using bully logic here, but that's the way things go for them. If you fight back, fine, they might still go for you, but you might be seen as a "more pleasurable" target cause then there's the chance of consequence for them. Even going so far as being like a "rival" to them.


It doesn't matter what they think (again you should know this) they won't be able to touch you. If they whine and call you a "pussy" that's all it is whining.

You then argue that "Oh if you fight back and they still go for you it'll be more FUN for them!"

The hell is your point? You WANT to give gratification to the bullies? Like I said if you fight back and escalate the scenario there's a chance they'll just escalate it further and stab you. Why do you think they jibe and taunt people in the first place? They WANT you to fight back. Why should you give bullies what they want?

Quote:
So seriously, Pierre. Telling authorities? Revenge comeback from them. Beating them? Revenge comeback from them. Not doing anything/ignoring them? That'll just cause worse mental and physical scars than at least trying to stop it. Doesn't matter what you do, you're fucked.


There is no ideal solution to bullying as of yet.

All I'm saying is fighting back and giving the bullies what they want will only make the situation worse. Yes there's no guarantee the authorities will take appropriate action to stop it but there's nothing saying that it won't turn out well and the bullies will be kept away effectively.

A few news stories does not set the tone for every case of going to the authorities.

So while telling the authorities or parents has a chance of making things better, fighting back will only cause trouble either with the school or the bullies.

There is no guarantee and bullying is such a personal thing it probably needs to be handled on a case by case basis but the only thing that can be said is the fighting back will never end well.

It's like dumb anime logic that it'll make a difference, that you can make it entirely on your own, that you can terrify the bullies so you can walk freely in the halls. It's an unrealistic expectation that you can solve a problem by simply hitting it.

It's a tempting one for many but we need to be realistic.
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It doesn't matter what they think (again you should know this) they won't be able to touch you. If they whine and call you a "pussy" that's all it is whining.

You then argue that "Oh if you fight back and they still go for you it'll be more FUN for them!"


I was using Bully Logic. Yeah, you think it's dumb and makes no sense. So? Bullies ARE dumb.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
It doesn't matter what they think (again you should know this) they won't be able to touch you. If they whine and call you a "pussy" that's all it is whining.

You then argue that "Oh if you fight back and they still go for you it'll be more FUN for them!"


I was using Bully Logic. Yeah, you think it's dumb and makes no sense. So? Bullies ARE dumb.

C-A


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So bullies are dumb, huh?

I tend to disagree. Some bullies are very smart. That's how they get ahead in this world. Maybe Joe who's walking down the hall like some bad 80s steroid-taking parody will find out there's life after high school, but Janice will take her lovely drama to the top of her sorority, and end up landing a job in the corporate world where she's constantly setting up subordinates for failure.

It's a very dangerous assumption that all bullies are of a one mindset, with little to no variation in their motives and histories. It's easy to dehumanize them since they're being assholes, but bullies are individuals too. They are not all abused, or previously bullied. Some are special snowflakes whose parents don't buy into the possibility their kid can do any wrong, and god forbid is cruel to other kids. It's foolish to think that there is a one-size-fits-all solution for all situations. Will some respond if you call them on their bullshit? Sure. Will some stop if you hit them hard enough to knock them on their ass and make them cry in front of everyone? Probably. If you go to the authorities, will it stop the bully's behavior? Well, the weaker ones might back off...for the more aggressive ones, it might make things worse. In any case, should you have to fear retaliation because you did something? Not necessarily, but you also shouldn't get a false sense of security, either. There's no need to be defensive all the time, but it helps to be alert. If this bully returns, or if another one comes into your life, you'll have to address the situation again. And if knocking them on their ass didn't work the first fifty times, then, guess what? You'll need to try something else.

If you do go to extremes, be prepared for the consequences. IMO the worst thing you can do in response to being bullied is to put your own life in danger because you had something to prove. And to become a bully yourself isn't much better (I am not talking about justified self-defense where you have an actual chance).
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It's a very dangerous assumption that all bullies are of a one mindset, with little to no variation in their motives and histories. It's easy to dehumanize them since they're being assholes, but bullies are individuals too. They are not all abused, or previously bullied. Some are special snowflakes whose parents don't buy into the possibility their kid can do any wrong, and god forbid is cruel to other kids.


I'm sure I've asked this before, and my stand hasn't changed: why should I care why a bully is bullying?
Do you think knowing the reason behind it makes it better, excuses it, just plain explains it or otherwise makes a big impact on the entire thing? Not really. Often times, bullies bully someone because of reasons they either don't know themselves (maybe they just don't like their victim, without knowing a reason) or because it's fun or similar. I doubt a bully victim is really gonna care why they got bullied. All they want is for it to stop.

I don't care if a bully is bullying because his parents are too strict, don't care about them, demand too much of them or overprotect them so much that their bullying is almost like a form of rebellious behavior to prove to them how not fragile they are (anymore). That last one seems especially dumb because, if the parents don't see your rebellious bullying, what's the point?

Quite frankly, I don't think having some sort of freudian excuse coming from bad parents or anything like that should be an excuse or explanation for their behavior.

Quote:
(I am not talking about justified self-defense where you have an actual chance).


Of course, here you have the problem... can you prove that it's complete justified self-defense? Most of the time, you don't. Either because the victim never said anything, resulting in the authorities saying "You should've said something...!", the authorities did step in, but that obviously didn't do anything, getting you the dumb response of "You shouldn't use violence, no matter what...!" or flat out, there is no proper proof because maybe the bullying was mentally and there are no physical bruises or similar to show, so it looks like you just exploded "over nothing".

If you can, you gotta make sure you did it legally. ie NOT like the kid in the article by recording something without all parties' consent.

C-A
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Pierre wrote:
dangerousoffender wrote:

So quite honestly, what would you suggest as a solution if neither the teachers nor the kid's family are taking effective measures to help the situation? The kid should just stay unreactive and wait for "authorities" (who haven't been helpful so far) to save him?


Pfft you can't say that the teachers nor the family won't be able to help all the time. That's when the system is running smoothly so of course those moments get less notice because papers love to report bad news.

In any case building mental fortitude, contacting the authorities or (second) worst case scenario, doing nothing at all, is better than enacting violence against them because the outcomes are either you win and get expelled or suspended for violence which marks you for life or you lose and get beaten badly. Either way you aggravate the people antagonising you.

What you think because you beat them in a fight they'll leave you alone forever? You think they 'Fear' you? Maybe if you take the extreme methods Cat suggested but those will land you in jail instead of just suspension. There's no guarantee if you win it's the end the bully or bullies might return in greater numbers or with a weapon. Granted that's the sort of thing that will get them expelled or jailed but when you are bleeding out on the pavement because a bully took a knife from home for the revenge shot I doubt that knowledge will be of much comfort to you.


I find it interesting that you still didn't really answer the question... What if the system's not running smoothly? Is it hopeless? Is violence still not the answer? Yeah, sure, the victim takes the risk of making it worse, but if they sit there and do nothing they take the risk of it never getting better. And if a victim gets to the point where they feel they have nothing to lose and have no more qualms about fighting... Well, maybe bleeding out on the pavement is better. To the victim, at least. Or maybe my suicidal mindset is rearing its ugly head again and I'm totally wrong. Still... I don't think violence should be dismissed as an option. I don't think diplomacy should, either, but it shouldn't be the only weapon a victim has.

Then again, I may not have room to talk as I've never been bullied to my knowledge. I have a brother who was a bully when he was younger, though, and I'm told I can be a total jerk at times...
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9mayasato9 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
dangerousoffender wrote:

So quite honestly, what would you suggest as a solution if neither the teachers nor the kid's family are taking effective measures to help the situation? The kid should just stay unreactive and wait for "authorities" (who haven't been helpful so far) to save him?


Pfft you can't say that the teachers nor the family won't be able to help all the time. That's when the system is running smoothly so of course those moments get less notice because papers love to report bad news.

In any case building mental fortitude, contacting the authorities or (second) worst case scenario, doing nothing at all, is better than enacting violence against them because the outcomes are either you win and get expelled or suspended for violence which marks you for life or you lose and get beaten badly. Either way you aggravate the people antagonising you.

What you think because you beat them in a fight they'll leave you alone forever? You think they 'Fear' you? Maybe if you take the extreme methods Cat suggested but those will land you in jail instead of just suspension. There's no guarantee if you win it's the end the bully or bullies might return in greater numbers or with a weapon. Granted that's the sort of thing that will get them expelled or jailed but when you are bleeding out on the pavement because a bully took a knife from home for the revenge shot I doubt that knowledge will be of much comfort to you.


I find it interesting that you still didn't really answer the question... What if the system's not running smoothly? Is it hopeless? Is violence still not the answer? Yeah, sure, the victim takes the risk of making it worse, but if they sit there and do nothing they take the risk of it never getting better. And if a victim gets to the point where they feel they have nothing to lose and have no more qualms about fighting... Well, maybe bleeding out on the pavement is better. To the victim, at least. Or maybe my suicidal mindset is rearing its ugly head again and I'm totally wrong. Still... I don't think violence should be dismissed as an option. I don't think diplomacy should, either, but it shouldn't be the only weapon a victim has.

Then again, I may not have room to talk as I've never been bullied to my knowledge. I have a brother who was a bully when he was younger, though, and I'm told I can be a total jerk at times...


It's not fair to assume the system always runs perfectly or always fails. In situations where it doesn't there is little that can be done (case in point the article that started this). However it's not a "risk" of making it worse, it's a guarantee. Either you win and the school shuns you or expels you (like Miju's friend) or you lose and get beaten badly or worse. Sure you might get temporary satisfaction but then your educational life is down the drain and they still might retaliate.

:ron: Really when you are suggesting bleeding out on the pavement as a positive alternative to doing nothing then it just seems illogical to me. Bullying is tied up heavily with so many emotions it's hard to think straight, especially at that age if you aren't quite understanding enough yet to see things impartially or think them through.

To quote Streetpass Battle (so many times): Sometimes doing nothing is the wisest decision of all.

Not that I'd promote doing nothing, like I said I believe in diplomacy, however if it fails then taking a negative option should still be avoided. Either seek out another line of diplomacy (perhaps the School Board for why their School has failed to tackle the problem appropriately) or try Rubia's willpower method and just disarm the bullies provided the bullying isn't solely violence.
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Pierre wrote:
It's not fair to assume the system always runs perfectly or always fails. In situations where it doesn't there is little that can be done (case in point the article that started this). However it's not a "risk" of making it worse, it's a guarantee. Either you win and the school shuns you or expels you (like Miju's friend) or you lose and get beaten badly or worse. Sure you might get temporary satisfaction but then your educational life is down the drain and they still might retaliate.


So... getting expelled from the school where the bullies were at is a bad thing? What, is it impossible to find another school? Possibly one where all the students are at least wary, if not scared shitless, of your new reputation? Home-schooling? Online school?

I'm under the impression that your educational life would be down the drain if there's bullying going on, anyway. At least if you get expelled you'll be able to escape, and if you lose and get beaten badly enough without dying, you still have a way to escape because now you have injuries that'll get either you or the jerks that did it to you taken out of the school. And if you die, then your quarry will be Death and whatever form it may take rather than a human being who you expected to have some sort of conscience.

Pierre wrote:
:ron: Really when you are suggesting bleeding out on the pavement as a positive alternative to doing nothing then it just seems illogical to me. Bullying is tied up heavily with so many emotions it's hard to think straight, especially at that age if you aren't quite understanding enough yet to see things impartially or think them through.


That was the point. Some kid out there's going to be desperate enough that they won't be thinking straight and will honestly think death is a better option. Enough kids have committed suicide due to bullying, I think, that I can safely assume someone out there has considered a kamikaze like this to be a very valid option.

Pierre wrote:
To quote Streetpass Battle (so many times): Sometimes doing nothing is the wisest decision of all.

Not that I'd promote doing nothing, like I said I believe in diplomacy, however if it fails then taking a negative option should still be avoided. Either seek out another line of diplomacy (perhaps the School Board for why their School has failed to tackle the problem appropriately) or try Rubia's willpower method and just disarm the bullies provided the bullying isn't solely violence.


Yeah? Well, sometimes you can't get a better lot in life without gambling a little bit of it away. And sometimes you just can't see the good that happens after the bad, even though it's there. It's a matter of learning when to sit still and when to get up and work for a better future; sometimes doing nothing, even when there is no diplomatic solution available, is the negative option.

And as much as I like Rubia's willpower method, as you implied, it doesn't always work... :ron:
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So... getting expelled from the school where the bullies were at is a bad thing? What, is it impossible to find another school? Possibly one where all the students are at least wary, if not scared shitless, of your new reputation? Home-schooling? Online school?


Well...yes...you might have to move...at the very least you'd lose contact with a lot of friends...you'd probably get hell with your parents...it'd be a huge black mark on your record...home schooling isn't necessarily an option as it'd require a parent takes time out of their working life or hires someone to do it...online school I've not heard as much of but still it's you putting the onus on other people to compensate for a problem you created.

Also do you really want all the students to fear you? :ron: You can't become as bad as the bullies yourself also having that reputation might also make you a target for new bullies as well simply because you stand out so much.

Quote:
I'm under the impression that your educational life would be down the drain if there's bullying going on, anyway. At least if you get expelled you'll be able to escape, and if you lose and get beaten badly enough without dying, you still have a way to escape because now you have injuries that'll get either you or the jerks that did it to you taken out of the school. And if you die, then your quarry will be Death and whatever form it may take rather than a human being who you expected to have some sort of conscience


Why? It's not entirely unheard of (in fact it's almost stereotypical) that bullying occurs because someone IS smart and puts the effort into their educational life.

Also I'm sorry but I'm not going to give any respect to an argument that says "Death is totally a valid option" it's the ultimate failure due to bullying. I know suicide is a sensitive issue but seeing it's a failure to cope with bullying and not a valid strategy.

Quote:
That was the point. Some kid out there's going to be desperate enough that they won't be thinking straight and will honestly think death is a better option. Enough kids have committed suicide due to bullying, I think, that I can safely assume someone out there has considered a kamikaze like this to be a very valid option.


Yeah...but we're not kids (making assumptions about your age, forgive me) and WE are discussing a good way to deal with it. It doesn't matter if the Kid doesn't think straight, I'm not trying to argue that violence is an UNLIKELY option to be chosen (like I said it's simple and catchy and appealing to people) I'm arguing that it's a BAD option to take and I don't think most children have the foresight to try an alternative.

Quote:
Yeah? Well, sometimes you can't get a better lot in life without gambling a little bit of it away. And sometimes you just can't see the good that happens after the bad, even though it's there. It's a matter of learning when to sit still and when to get up and work for a better future; sometimes doing nothing, even when there is no diplomatic solution available, is the negative option.


There's a lot of idealism in this post, the world isn't like a game or anime, you can't just spout inspirational words like "get up and work for a better future" and it'll come up well by going out and acting on a problem. Also since when was inflicting harm upon your fellow man a 'better future'.

Your comparison to gambling is an apt one but you use it wrong, the thing about gambling is: The House always Wins. Like I've said there is no positive outcome to fighting back against bullies, you claim that expulsion and even death can be considered positives as it gets you away from them but there's so many ridiculous negatives with those that I fail to see how they can be considered a 'good' outcome.

There is a time to act sure, but in the specific situation of bullying, violence is not the answer.
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Well...yes...you might have to move...at the very least you'd lose contact with a lot of friends...you'd probably get hell with your parents...


Um... actually, if I heard my kid stood up to its bullies, I'd be proud. Sure I wouldn't be happy about the suspension or expulsion from school, but knowing my kid had the guts to do something against them is still good.

Quote:
Also do you really want all the students to fear you?


Part of me wants to say Yes rather resoundingly. At least then you know that nobody will pick on you again, potentially causing more mental or physical scars on the victim. Like I said, some kids were afraid of me when I was in 6th grade. No idea why, as I said, I wasn't very violent at that point. (That didn't happen until like a year or two later when I turned 14 and by then I had switched schools twice - health reasons)

Quote:
Yeah...but we're not kids (making assumptions about your age, forgive me) and WE are discussing a good way to deal with it. It doesn't matter if the Kid doesn't think straight, I'm not trying to argue that violence is an UNLIKELY option to be chosen (like I said it's simple and catchy and appealing to people) I'm arguing that it's a BAD option to take and I don't think most children have the foresight to try an alternative.


So you basically agree - or admit - that a kid won't think of an alternative next to violence. Well at least that's a misunderstanding out of the way, I guess. Yes there are other methods, but not all kids - or very few - are gonna think of others due to being too afraid of thinking "If I go the diplomatic/authority route, it'll get worse" so they opt for violence.

C-A
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