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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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dullahan1 wrote:
I will say this upfront. As a Christian, I don't condone the homosexual lifestyle. The Bible says it's sin and people are going to hell for that. I don't approve of it because I don't want to see those people going to hell, it worries me. But to me, homosexuality is just another one of many sins along with lying, premarital sex, etc. that the Bible says will have the same results if people don't repent.



Corinthians 13


If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


If 2 men or women love each-other, and carry on the righteous path of The Lord, do you honestly think they deserve go to Hell?
Do you think God is incapable of understanding context?

I consider myself a religious man, I try my hardest to live to my principles, but if a principle tells me to hate someone for no reason other than who they are I think an error happened somewhere.

Psalm 103


12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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dullahan1 wrote:
From things I've seen and read and where trends are following nowadays though, here's my question. Why does it seem that the more homosexuality is being accepted, the more Christianity is being bashed? If people are claiming to try to head towards a world that treats others equally, why does it seem that as one group gets more accepted, another gets less accepted? It seems like a see-saw effect for me, no balance whatsoever.

I've seen enough antitheists ranting about Christianity to know there's some truth to your words. My take on the situation is that the hostility toward Christianity on the part of many vocal LGBT rights activists is due in part to a hasty generalization. To try to sum it up:
  • Many vocal supporters of full bans on same-sex marriage, as well as laws that just generally discriminate against LGBT people, use their religion as a justification for such laws.
  • These religion-based arguments are invalid from a legal standpoint due to separation of church and state (i. e. the law can not be used to impose the rules of any one religion on all citizens). The fact that such arguments are still made promotes the idea that the people making them are theocrats and will not tolerate any actions or viewpoints that conflict with the teachings of their religion.
  • The majority of Westerners are Christians and the majority of religious arguments against LGBT rights that Westerners are familiar with are based on Christian teachings.
  • Overly passionate and irrational LGBT rights activists assume that the people making such religious arguments speak for most or all Christians. Thus, they end up viewing Christianity and Christians as a whole as the enemy.
  • Antitheists already aligned with the LGBT rights movement add fuel to the fire by applying the context of the LGBT rights movement to their preexisting hostility toward Christianity (and religion in general).
I can't agree with this behavior by some of my fellow LGBT rights activists. My view is that people are free to believe what they believe. If their religion forbids same-sex marriages, then I don't believe any organizations directly connected to their religion should be obligated to recognize same-sex marriages. Where I draw the line is services offered to everyone. For example, dullahan1, if you're the pastor of a church, your church isn't obligated to host same-sex weddings, officiate same-sex weddings, recognize same-sex marriages, etc. If you run a restaurant that caters weddings, however, my view is that your religion does not justify you refusing to cater a same-sex wedding. Likewise, if you work for the government and file marriage licenses, your religion does not justify you refusing to file a license for a same-sex couple.

That second part is what appears to have a lot of people worried. They're used to same-sex marriage not even being a thing, so in the past, they never had to choose between the law of their state and the law of their religion. Now that that's changing, people who oppose same-sex marriage feel victimized because the government is forcing them to serve people they don't want to serve. I understand why this bothers them, but at the same time, I can't consider it unjust discrimination against their religion, as their arguments would be no more valid if, say, they chose to deny their services to interracial couples on religious grounds. The fact of the matter is that when you offer your services to the public, you are expected to provide that service for anyone who requests it and can afford it, regardless of your own personal feelings on the matter.

I think another part of it is being used to same-sex couples not being open about their relationships. This one's ultimately separate from religion, but still something that likely bothers people who feel the LGBT rights movement is trying to repress their religion. It's easy to assume both are an attack on religion. People who are uncomfortable with the idea of same-sex relationships now have to deal with the fact that those relationships exist and the law won't stop people in such relationships from doing the same things opposite-sex couples do.

Ultimately, the reason why I don't equate Christianity (or any religion, for that matter) with opposition to the LGBT rights movement is because a lot of elements of the opposition strike me as actually being independent of Christianity. A person's religious beliefs might help reinforce that opposition and make it easier to explain it, but I'm not convinced it's the root of said opposition.
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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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@Domaya:

I never said I hated anyone. I hate the action. The sin. Not the sinner. As God loves the sinner, so will I. I hate the sin because it separates us from God. Sin brings us a one way ticket to hell. Not everyone believes this, I understand. But according to The Word, homosexuality is classified as a sin. Just like lying, stealing, adultery and all the rest. I hate the fact that sin condemns us all. We don't repent, we go to hell. I'm no exception. But thankfully, God offered us a way out, and if we accept him and confess our sins, we're saved from that fate.

A gay couple committing themselves to God... I want to restate, I have nothing against the gay couple, but it's an oxy-moron unless they are truly seeking out the Lord, as he will save them from their sins. To me, its the same as saying an adulterer is running around, sleeping with many women, but he's still religious. But honestly, if a gay couple commits to the Lord, to me, that elates me. Because they're there working out their relationship with God to overcome their sin. But if you mean that they stay in their homosexual lifestyle and commit themselves to God, the Bible says that's impossible. As homosexuality is a sin, Paul in Romans states that one cannot serve two masters: sin and God. You either commit yourself to one or the other. If you're still living in your sin, then you're not truly serving God and that's something between you and Him.

I don't consider myself a religious man, nor do I follow my principles. Religion is manmade and full of flaws. And while some people say the Bible does too, that's what I follow. I call myself a Christian and try hard to commit myself to God's principles. Do I mess up and sin? Yeah, often. But I come back to Him and repent because it's not the lifestyle I want to stay stuck in. And that's the thing. Sin is a lifestyle choice. If you choose to stay there, then you're choosing to stay away from God. He's not sending you to hell, you're choosing to go there, whether you believe it or not. It's not a choice I want to see anyone make.

I try my best to love everyone equally, no matter their lifestyle. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to worry if it's a lifestyle that's going to condemn them to hell. I pray for them. To me, their eternal lives are the most important to me. Where a person spends an eternity, to me, matters most. Understand, I'm not going to approve of sin, ever, because I don't want people to die and suffer.


@Luigi:

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your rational response and what's going on really makes a lot of sense to me. I've been finding it hard to get a straight answer about this because whenever it's brought up you're a Christian on a pro LGBT article or something, suddenly there's lots of backlash and my immediate assumption is that religion is now in the same boat the homosexuals were in years ago. To me, discriminating any of those groups is wrong and unjust.

While I don't support homosexuality for the reasons I explained to DoMaya, I don't hate them and I won't discriminate against them. They're people, just like me. They just have a different lifestyle, different beliefs. Doesn't give me the right to slander them. To me, slandering doesn't make anyone better than someone else, but instead makes you look like a jerk. Just like you, I can't approve when fellow Christians are going out, slandering people, condemning them to hell for their actions. God would never do that.

-----------

Now for what I believe, I do try to stay open-minded. If I'm wrong somewhere in my beliefs and how I live for God, I'm up for people proving me wrong, as long as they can back it up with solid scripture. To me, outside of seeing others saved, is to try to have the best relationship with God I can possibly have. I'm not going to give in to just any old preacher preaching any message either, it has to come from the Bible. The one thing I will never change though is the belief that the Bible is the Truth. Say what you will, but through my faith, I have had far too many spiritual encounters to convince me otherwise.


But really guys, thanks for responding respectfully without tearing into me. Having differing opinions on the internet seems to devolve more into slandering rather than having a mature debate, and I know I can trust that most people are trusting here and if we have differing ideas, we at least have mutual understandings.
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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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dullahan1 wrote:
But according to The Word, homosexuality is classified as a sin. Just like lying, stealing, adultery and all the rest.

Refresh my memory. Where was that stated? Specifically?
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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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I really don't want to seem like your typical ranting atheist but....if that rule is on the Old Statement...well... y'know.
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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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sumguy28 wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
But according to The Word, homosexuality is classified as a sin. Just like lying, stealing, adultery and all the rest.

Refresh my memory. Where was that stated? Specifically?


Well the lying, stealing and adultery bit I'm pretty sure comes as extensions of the 12 Commandments. As for the bit about Homosexuality, it is there, I swear I actually remember reading the verse quoted somewhere recently.


As for the rest I get where you are coming from Dullahan. I've struggled a lot with the increasing hostility towards Christianity, I remember a particularly awkward time where I mentioned something mildly religious and a friend turned to me in shock and went "Oh you're one of THOSE Christians?" (meaning a particularly evangelical kind though she had completely the wrong idea).

That said the Church does have a lot to answer for given what's happened and it makes it difficult for the rest of us. The way I cope I figure is that while the Bible has a lot of good in it, it is ultimately made by men. Men who have their own beliefs and opinions and agendas and may seek to sway other people to that effect. The words written in the pages are hardly objective understandings free of bias, therefore mankind has to choose for themselves what they want to learn from the Bible.

There's plenty of good to be garnered from it but there's no guarantee it all is or that the writer is infallible.
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Re: Pizzeria refuses service to gay engaged couples.Topic%20Title
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Hmmm... this is a tough position. I'm a little nervous about posting, but too late now :sillytrucy: EDIT: Whoops I didn't realise this was about 2 weeks since the last post.

I was raised catholic, and so naturally was taught that homosexuality was wrong. Not explicitly, just through reactions of people. I've done a bit of study in Biology and think it's more a genetic trait than a 'choice'. Who would choose the option of loving someone who's the same gender as you just to be bombarded with hate? It seems illogical to me, but that's my thought process.

I have nothing against homosexuals and I do support them. I know too many people who are friends/colleagues, who after them sharing their experiences with me have made me understand the difficulties they've gone though. Heck, one of my high school friends has now started doing Drag, and I support that! (bar all the weed they apparently smoke...) I have respect for drag queens, what with Dame Edna being a massive Australian entertainment icon, but I digress.

I can't really give my opinion on the bible, as I can't say I've read it all, but doing religious studies all throughout high school (being catholic) I can understand the English bible versus aren't literal translations of the Sanskrit readings (and after learning about translations at Uni, most historic translations are reflections of the opinions of the translator, and not literal, word for word accurate translations) and so we should take what they say with a grain of salt. That's not to say disregard them though.
(I'm glad my school taught me about the mistakes the catholic church has made in the past, that stuff seems to be left out, I'm grateful they were so open minded!)

All in all people's opinions are each to their own. I don't like laws that allow for discrimination. It seems kind of backwards to me considering all the work in the opposite direction. I can't say I should force my opinion on anyone either. I'm really just hoping people can acknowledge the difference and not cause it to interfere with everyday life (Which this Pizza joint is doing).
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