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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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So I've only been on X, X-2 and VII. X is my joint favourite game (with the AA games ofc), and I just loved everything about it. X-2 was okay, a weak follow up to X though. As for VII, I know it's supposed to be one of the best, if the best, but I couldn't get into it! I don't even remember anything about it really.
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samboo1 wrote:
So I've only been on X, X-2 and VII. X is my joint favourite game (with the AA games ofc), and I just loved everything about it. X-2 was okay, a weak follow up to X though. As for VII, I know it's supposed to be one of the best, if the best, but I couldn't get into it! I don't even remember anything about it really.


Maybe too used to proper modern graphics..something I worry turns off many gamers about the old ones.

Or y'know...the fact Cloud has all the appeal of a drunken infested prostitute in a sewer could contribute.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
Final Fantasy 8 is a terrible game. I'd put it right there alongside 2.


Yet there is those who do like it.
I thought it tried some interesting things albeit it's not a favourite I wouldn't say it was an unpleasurable experience playing it.


It was unpleasurable for me. There was no depth to any of the characters, the main protagonist hated everything, the big reveal was so stupid, the battle system was easily broken and tedious, and everything felt so uninspired including the music. Honestly, this game is easily one of Nobuo's weakest compositions. For a game that was handling a love story as well, it did poorly whereas, Final Fantasy 9, a game developed around the same time and not putting the main focus on a love story, handled the romance so much better.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
Final Fantasy 8 is a terrible game. I'd put it right there alongside 2.


Yet there is those who do like it.
I thought it tried some interesting things albeit it's not a favourite I wouldn't say it was an unpleasurable experience playing it.


It was unpleasurable for me. There was no depth to any of the characters, the main protagonist hated everything, the big reveal was so stupid, the battle system was easily broken and tedious, and everything felt so uninspired including the music. Honestly, this game is easily one of Nobuo's weakest compositions. For a game that was handling a love story as well, it did poorly whereas, Final Fantasy 9, a game developed around the same time and not putting the main focus on a love story, handled the romance so much better.


I know a few folks who think FFVIII had the best airship theme and I didn't think the music was bad. Though it's not fair to compare it to FF9 which has handled a love story best out of all the FF's if you ask me.

Though yeah Squall sucked.
Also....catching Rinoa in space....I'd rather let her drift off...
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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I only compare it to 9 because those two games were in production at the same time. Apparently Square's branch over in Hawaii had more creative and well thought out ideas than their main headquarters.

Also, if it will please the FFVIII fans, I will be honest and say this. =)

Squall is the best FF protagonist ever because he hates the game as much as you do.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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dullahan1 wrote:
Final Fantasy 8 is a terrible game. I'd put it right there alongside 2.

I liked you Dully :( (8's my favourite, but I'll acknowledge that 6 and 7 are the best I've played)

EDIT: Uninspired music? Jesus Christ dude.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Why is the Final Fantasy VI: The Power Within logo included in the first post? I thought that was just a fan game.

Besides that; for the Final Fantasy series my favorites are VI and IX. I never could get into VIII, XII, or XIII.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Yellow Magician wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
Final Fantasy 8 is a terrible game. I'd put it right there alongside 2.

I liked you Dully :( (8's my favourite, but I'll acknowledge that 6 and 7 are the best I've played)

EDIT: Uninspired music? Jesus Christ dude.


We can still be friends and have different tastes. =) One of my good friends and I actually argue over this game all the time. I entered FF8 a few years back for my first time expecting good things, but it just overall disappointed me. They needed 20 pages of dialogue for tutorials? The battle music was good, but the more I got into the game, the less I liked the music to be honest. I couldn't get into the characters or anything, and I don't like "Eyes on Me".

If it makes you feel any better, I did think 8 did the whole "end of disc" cliffhangers the best out of the PS Final Fantasies.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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dullahan1 wrote:
We can still be friends and have different tastes. =) One of my good friends and I actually argue over this game all the time. I entered FF8 a few years back for my first time expecting good things, but it just overall disappointed me. They needed 20 pages of dialogue for tutorials? The battle music was good, but the more I got into the game, the less I liked the music to be honest. I couldn't get into the characters or anything, and I don't like "Eyes on Me".

If it makes you feel any better, I did think 8 did the whole "end of disc" cliffhangers the best out of the PS Final Fantasies.

Friends with different tastes? Pah, what a ludicrous proposition.

I don't really remember much about the tutorials, and apart from little details the characters weren't THE most engaging (I <3 Squall though), but I can't see how anyone would find the music short of spectacular. Sure, Eyes on Me wasn't great, but what about Balamb Garden, Blue Fields, The Spy, Never Look Back (totally MADE the giant enemy (robot) crab scene), The Extreme, Man with the Machine Gun and virtually every other track? ;\ IMO the FFVIII OST is Nobuo Uematsu's finest work to date, but to each his own I guess.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Also it had Laguna! LAGUNA!

Though I also liked Zell and Raijin best from that game XD Goofs entertain me.

Though yeah Man with the Machine Gun and the Extreme are both pretty awesome though I've always quite liked Force Your Way as well.

Best FF music ever? No but I would say it's pretty good.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
Also it had Laguna! LAGUNA!

Haha, how on earth did I forget about Laguna & Co while mentioning MwtMG? Sorry, Dully, consider your character point debunked. :keiko: (man I missed these smilies)
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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If Laguna was the main character, it would have been a more interesting game. The weakness I found with the main protagonists were that they were two-dimensional. I didn't feel any character development and any that happened felt forced and unnecessary. Like I said before, I loved the battle themes and such from the game, but as an overall soundtrack, it was very poor.

If we're going into characters too, let's talk about the NPCs. They are so boring. They aren't worth talking to. If they would have been more interesting like the Fisherman in Fisherman's Horizon, I would have been happy. FF8, why couldn't your NPCs have been like FF9?
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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Laguna & Co would make for a great FFVIII-2...or seeing as it'd probably be a prequel, FFVIII-0. Hah.

From what I remember character development depended on the player's choices in-game (this was almost certainly the case with the Squall/Rinoa relationship). And I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree regarding the soundtrack. X:

Can't remember many NPCs outside Seifer and the other baddies so you might have a point there...
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Question. Anyone else going to see Nobuo Uematsu live in concert in October in Texas? Already got my ticket and can't wait to go.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
Question. Anyone else going to see Nobuo Uematsu live in concert in October in Texas? Already got my ticket and can't wait to go.


Aw man you get to go see that?!
I wonder what he'll play.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Yeah, he's going to be at Oni-Con in Galveston. Interestingly, I was reading a list of past guests that have attended this smallish con since it started in 2004 and it has had some big names in the gaming and anime industry show up, and one that caught my eye from the first year it started was Yoshitaka Amano. Seriously made my day.

Looking forward to it though, he's going to be playing with his new band, the Earthbound Papas.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
Yeah, he's going to be at Oni-Con in Galveston. Interestingly, I was reading a list of past guests that have attended this smallish con since it started in 2004 and it has had some big names in the gaming and anime industry show up, and one that caught my eye from the first year it started was Yoshitaka Amano. Seriously made my day.

Looking forward to it though, he's going to be playing with his new band, the Earthbound Papas.



Man I'm still praying for the day the black mages form up again XD
Still see if you can get pictures and try and see Yoshitaka Amano too if he's there.
Now to go look up the Earthbound Papas
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Forgive the double post but I bring news

Final Fantasy X is getting the PS3 treatment

Twas announced at the TGS apparently for PS3 and Vita and a bunch of fans are weeping about FF7 being left alone (personally I'd quite like FF5 redone) but since FFX is my favourite of the series I'm understandably psyched.

I mean HD FREAKIN REMASTERED BLITZBALL!!!!!!!
MORE WAKKA THAN YOUR BODY CAN HANDLE!
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Apart from the Chrystal Bearers, I've only played one FF game, and I think it was FFVIII.. I remember it as FVII, but you guys are telling me that it was 8 who had Squal as a protagonist so it must be it.

It was... pretty good I think. From time to time I really miss it (disc got destroyed when I was a kid because I failed at the whole toothpaste-on-disc thing because it was full of cracks), as it had a really weirdly composed story, but that gave it a certain charm. Thinking back, and looking up clips of it on youtube awakens a few bad memories as well though.. Squal was actually a pretty annoying character now that I think about it... he was kinda sick of everything without a pretty good reason.. and the whole "we're all from the same orphanage" was also a little silly.. There was also this annoying character.. somebody's right hand if I remember correctly, who only said one word at a time, which made no sense to me.. apart from that I don't remember a lot of bad stuff about it.. not that I really have any other FF games to compare it to :larry2: But Im pretty impressed with what you got to do in the game.. going to space, turning the world red of monsters etc.

I probably won't get a chance to replay it ever again, and I might never try another FF game, seeing as I am not in a possesion of a playstation.. but it was fun :)
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So the other day I was shuffling through my music library, and Searching For Friends started playing. In an instant, all my fondest memories of FF6 came back; the opera, the various flashbacks, the ending, Ultros, being reunited with any character in the World of Ruin... And I thought "what a powerful game that was". In other words, it's time for another playthrough.
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Sweet mercy I just got back from a weekend of meeting Nobuo Uematsu in person. One of the best weekends ever!
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
Sweet mercy I just got back from a weekend of meeting Nobuo Uematsu in person. One of the best weekends ever!


Y...Y...you....ugh...

How?!
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He was with the Earthbound Papas in Galveston, TX at Oni-con this past weekend. First American convention appearance ever. He is a great guy and one of the most humblest people I've met. To top it off, this dude loves Professor Layton, makes him more epic to me.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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So what did you talk about!?

What did he play?
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He and the band made a big note that they had to try some steak while down in Texas. We also got to learn about how some of the group members got into music, their favorite foods, favorite bands and things like that. They are actually fans of the composer of Cowboy Bebop, so I found that pretty interesting. Also for the curious, Uematsu's favorite Final Fantasy game, from what he said, is the first one.

As for songs, they played Liberi Fatali (think that's how you spell it), One Winged Angel, Maybe I'm a Lion, Those Who Fight Further, a song from Blue Dragon, the final boss them to Lost Odyssey, and an epic version of Bohemian Rhapsody, I am not making that up.

Also, gonna say, Uematsu's ponytail is epic, his wiki profile page needs to update his profile page to include this.

Sad to say, my friends and I weren't able to get any pics, but I do have this as proof of meeting Uematsu for the unbelievers. His autograph is the biggest one on the bottom.
Spoiler: autograph
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Overall, it was a fun weekend and I hope they can come back again. They said they'd like to. I'm glad to know their first con appearance in America was an enjoyable one for them. For Oni-Con being a small Con, they sure have had some big names there, it honestly surprises me.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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I like this series, although for some reason I decided to stop playing Final Fantasy XIII. I enjoy Dragon Quest muuuuuuuch more, though. :redd:
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Ah, here it is!

Anthony wrote:
sumguy28 wrote:
Seriously though, FFX would have been so much better if Tidus never happened and Yuna was the main character.

*eye twitches* I do hope you plan on taking that back.......

Ah, so you liked Tidus' character. Good. Then tell me:
Spoiler:
what was the point of the Fayth making Tidus be the one who has to defeat Sin? No, "because Sin is Jecht, Tidus' father" is not an acceptable answer, because Sin is also Braska, Yuna's father. Why have two characters fight their fathers when one pair is barely addressed by the characters?

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sumguy28 wrote:
Ah, here it is!

Anthony wrote:
sumguy28 wrote:
Seriously though, FFX would have been so much better if Tidus never happened and Yuna was the main character.

*eye twitches* I do hope you plan on taking that back.......

Ah, so you liked Tidus' character. Good. Then tell me:
Spoiler:
what was the point of the Fayth making Tidus be the one who has to defeat Sin? No, "because Sin is Jecht, Tidus' father" is not an acceptable answer, because Sin is also Braska, Yuna's father. Why have two characters fight their fathers when one pair is barely addressed by the characters?


Hang on...

Spoiler: About Sin
Where is it ever said that the Summoner who summons the Final Aeon to defeat Sin becomes part of Sin, too? Far as I remember, the talk was always that the Final Aeon would get possessed by Yevon and turn into the new Sin. The Summoner who calls upon the Final Aeon simply dies.


But I absolutely agree, Tidus is a terrible character. I get the idea that they made him "the player representative" in terms of having things explained to him. But did they have to make him this dumb about this? Every turn of the way, his first response to a smidgen of new information is "Huh"? instead of, I dunno, using his brain for a few seconds and figuring things out. And his way of "acting more mature" and "leading the group" later in the game? Simply him talking in a louder voice. Good job, Tidus, you sure know how to lead people...

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Do you have any evidence they were were going to make it more experimental? It's just the first I've heard of it, FFX was revolutionary enough I felt so I'm curious as to what more they had planned.


Lemme quick check the Wiki on it...
Although Hironobu Sakaguchi showed doubts about the transition from 2D to 3D backgrounds, voice acting, and real-time storytelling, he also stated the success of the series was due to constantly changing development and trying out new things.
Final Fantasy X was initially going to incorporate online elements, which were later dropped, and added into the next title in the series, Final Fantasy XI.
Originally, Final Fantasy X was going to feature enemies wandering visible on the field map with seamless transition into battles allowing players to move freely around the area during enemy encounters. Battle art director Shintaro Takai has explained the intention was for the battles to come across as a natural part of the story instead of an independent element.
Yoshinori Kitase has cited the inclusion of voice acting as one of the big things he wanted to introduce to Final Fantasy when the series moved from PlayStation to PlayStation 2.


Oh and I have to list this, cause it sounds hilarious.
In the early story drafts Tidus's role was vastly different from the final version; Tidus was envisioned as a plumber with the attitude of a delinquent.

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In FFXIII, sure you can sell components but then you are only going to buy more components so you don't really gain anything


Selling Components is a terrible idea unless you are desperately in need for a few hundred Gil to buy something. The only thing in the Component Submenu you should ever sell are things labeled as "Can be sold for a Premium" cause those have no purpose except bring in cash.

Quote:
XIII-2 maintaining a very similar battle system to XIII EXCEPT they added in a function where the party leader changes to another when one dies meaning it's not 'one-character' game over.


And I think it's a dumb little mechanic to put in since it's actually difficult to die in XIII-2.

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In my playthrough I'd been putting points into the "Power Circle" for Snow, the weapon that amplifies strength for him. His strength was pretty reasonable by this point and outclassed his magic stat by a big margin. So I would switch to ravager (the chain building class) which includes both elemental spells and elemental strikes and I see Snow pointlessly launching elemental spells into the foe at point blank range and question why he's not using the physical version. I take direct control of him for the next battle against the same foe and sure enough, the damage is improved notably on his physical strikes with no loss of chain gauge.


Question. Was said Foe Weak against Magical attacks or did he have Immunity to Physical attacks? Generally the AI switches between Strikes and Spells in the Blaster role. Sometimes, if the AI realizes the Foe is weak or strong to one kind, it'll switch to only Spells or Strikes.

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Rin joking about selling you items when if you lose he dies too? Dyne's touching backstory with Barret.


Rin wasn't funny, Dyne was annoying (and Barret's backstory took too long and was boring)

Quote:
Yes a massive problem with Hope and the reason why he's so annoying. It boggles my mind that this kid is considered insightful and intelligent enough to become effectively a world leader in the next game.


Remember how you acted a decade ago? Look at yourself now. Are you smarter and more mature?
Of course. And Hope did the exact same thing.

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I like characters who have resolute beliefs to be confronted with harsh realities and grow from them. It's why I appreciate folks like Steiner and Wakka more because they face their world coming down on them and need to adapt to it.


I agree with Dullahan, though. Being optimistic is great, but sometimes you need to shut up and face the truth. Which Snow doesn't do until Chapter 9, when the truth is pounded into his face. There's a reason I like Snow in Chapter 10. He's quiet and doesn't boast around all the time. Good intentions are good but... well, if Snow thinks something goes like this, he needs to realize that not everyone thinks that way. Sometimes, you gotta keep things to yourself.

Quote:
And of course yes Sazh is the greatest redeeming factor of FFXIII.


I like Sazh. Not when he's overly-funny-comic-relief in later Chapters, I like him as the typical, normal father worried about his son that he is. He wasn't overly trained, he just did what he thought a dad had to do. Help his son and protect him. Especially a young kid like Dajh.

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Jecht wanted to die by his son's hands when he became Sin? And Shuryin or whatver his name is the Real Zanarkand of Tidus and Tidus is the Dream Zanakarnd version of Shuryin.
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Anthony wrote:
Jecht wanted to die by his son's hands when he became Sin? And Shuryin or whatver his name is the Real Zanarkand of Tidus and Tidus is the Dream Zanakarnd version of Shuryin.


Considering X never originally planned to never have a Sequel, technically we can say that Shuyin, during the creation of Final Fantasy X "didn't exist". Also, wasn't it that Jecht had already given up going home to Zanarkand and ever seeing his wife and child again, so how would he ever want to be killed by his son if he knew there was no way for him to meet him again?

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CatMuto wrote:
Anthony wrote:
Jecht wanted to die by his son's hands when he became Sin? And Shuryin or whatver his name is the Real Zanarkand of Tidus and Tidus is the Dream Zanakarnd version of Shuryin.


Considering X never originally planned to never have a Sequel, technically we can say that Shuyin, during the creation of Final Fantasy X "didn't exist". Also, wasn't it that Jecht had already given up going home to Zanarkand and ever seeing his wife and child again, so how would he ever want to be killed by his son if he knew there was no way for him to meet him again?

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Well how do you THINK Sin got to Dream Zanarkand? Including Auron.
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Anthony wrote:
Well how do you THINK Sin got to Dream Zanarkand? Including Auron.


It's Sin. It can do whatever the hell it wants. And like I said, think of the situation when Jecht became Sin. He didn't know he could ever go back to his home or see his son again. So becoming Sin never had anything to do with wanting to be killed by his son's hands. He became Sin because he knew he couldn't go back and figured that, if he became the Final Aeon that might defeat Sin for good, well then he would've done some good in Spira.

The original question was why the fayth would bring Tidus into Spira. Not Sin.

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Yes I'll admit FF2's system was very experimental and everyone I've heard talk about it didn't especially like it. Sadly I can't comment much on it since I've not played it, however this was the second game in the franchise so it was still establishing elements that would be consistent in the entire series as it was finding it's feet. The original Final Fantasy was a surprise success, I'm sure I don't need to recount the story of how it was the creator's last game. Final Fantasy 2 wasn't sure what it would be, since no one expected to be making it they had to make it different than before. However I'd argue your problem is with the growth system and not the battle system...because the battle system is essentially the same, you select one command and have an effect on the enemy. It might seem a minor differentiation but it's another identical element.

As for FF8, I didn't feel it really did deviate that much, it's just that you replace Materia with GFs, Drawing magic was admittedly new and interesting to me as I'd never especially liked MP leaving me limited before. I always preferred abilities over MP as well so I had no problem letting my Magic just sit and improve my stats. However that's just my opinion on the system and again while it's the growth system that changed the battle system that remained relatively the same. In fact if anything the growth system is the one thing than does change consistently throuwout each game. 'Change' in the growth system could be argued to be a constant element of FF like the other commonalities (something FF13 actually also didn't include given how the Crystarium was a less flexible version of the Sphere Grid). The battle system was still essentially the core, which FFXIII drastically deviated from.


I think I'm seeing now where we differentiate in opinions here on the battle system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're feeling it's not too different because at the core of each game, you're still selecting attacks and pressing A or X or whatever to use them. To me, they each feel different because of the the execution of the battle system and how it's handled. Navigating the menu may be the same, but how you're acquiring everything and what it takes to get you from acquiring an ability to using it is what makes it different to me and that's where I'm coming from.

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It's an interesting argument but FFX was actually early PS2 so I doubt anyone was considering 'waiting' to the PS3 to come out. Do you have any evidence they were were going to make it more experimental? It's just the first I've heard of it, FFX was revolutionary enough I felt so I'm curious as to what more they had planned.

Oh, it wasn't so much me saying they were waiting on the PS3 as to saying they were limited because of the PS2 hardware. As for the changes that were cut out, Cat covered them pretty much.

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I'm not sure there's much to garner in comparing it to another series. It's possible to argue that rather FFX being 'innovative' in including voice acting, Dragon quest was behind the times in NOT including it as many games on the PS2 were starting to include voice acting around that time.
It's not a major system change it's an aesthetic bonus, even then I could argue that the FF series is always expected to be pretty top-of-the-line when it comes to aesthetics, I certainly remember that being expected of FFXIII when we were waiting for it to come out, in which case it would still be part of the regular commonalities with FF's expectations.

I only compare because Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are the two big series owned by Square that essentially started out the same way, but went in completely different directions, so I feel the comparison is justified. Both series combat systems were very similar early on, but Final Fantasy quickly deviated and went the experimental route whereas Dragon Quest stayed with its roots. I believe about the voice acting too, it was a risk for Square at the time because, if I recall, they had never done voice acting before. Experimental to be sure and it's probably the reason why it's been heavily criticized for times when the voice acting came off as amateurish because no one really had any idea on how to direct at the time. It's gotten SO much better since then. It may come off as an aesthetic change, but I also see it as a gamble too. Trying something you've never done before in hopes of it being successful is always a risk.

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I think that's a statement that could be made of any long-running series rather than just Final Fantasy but my argument is that FFXIII failed that and did change things up too much. I think with terms of story and characters you can get a unique interesting experience that differentiates from other entries in a series, in fact I know this is the case by pointing at visual novels and adventure games where the gameplay doesn't drastically change at all. For the story and characters to change is enough to create a new experience without the need to drastically alter the fundamental gameplay.
That's understandable. It's your opinion and I respect that. I can't say I hate or love the changes FFXIII made as, again, I haven't played the game. As for your point, that is the reason why I go back to games like Dragon Quest, for the new characters. I'm not looking for innovation in the series, but I'm looking for characters to enjoy, and most of the time, it delivers.

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True FFX was semi-linear although it can be justified by it's plot, where the party HAS to follow a path for religious reasons. There's no plot limitation to justify for FFXIII being on a flat track. Yes you are on the run and that gives you a reason to not stick around in one place for too long but it doesn't give you a reason to go to only one place, like I've already said FF6 has already done the fugitives on the run (arguably 12 too when I think about it) without limiting freedom successfully.

I'd argue FF13 has more capacity for loading out bigger areas and expanding them more for it to be a fair advantage to hold over a relatively early PS2 game. However the hallway problem is only part of the big picture, I do remember the same problems being said of FFX by some people and admittedly as my first final fantasy I wasn't aware of how 'open world' the others were in comparison. However a big part of it is how FFX fleshes out these open areas...which we'll discuss in a moment.

Justified or not though, it's still a terrible excuse to make the game linear. Previous Final Fantasies have also had "go from point A to point B" plots, but still left a lot to explore in between. FFX doesn't really do that, save for very few instances. You're bound to a narrow path and you can't deviate from it. If the areas were more open-ended like in FFXII, it probably wouldn't have been so bad. I think you can still have a whole, reach the final destination area, without having to put restrictions on the exploration. It's the same problem I see with FFXIII, it's just the "hallways" feel a bit longer because the areas are bigger.

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Actually...the point of loot WAS to sell it. It was different but the emphasis on selling it is what powered the whole economy so you would often not be short on money. You sold loot for money and depending on the loot sold the bazaar would make more items to buy with your money. It was an economy that worked and you did not really benefit from holding onto loot. There may have been low Gil payouts but there's still at least a working Gil economy and you can still get plenty of Gil if you engage with it's economy. In FFXIII, sure you can sell components but then you are only going to buy more components so you don't really gain anything

I get the system. I just didn't like it. Suppose it was an instance of "they changed it, now it sucks" to me.

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I'm....not exactly sure you are correct here...sidequests led to you getting ultimate weapons, optional GFS....by extension more abilities to power up your characters. Hell sidequests even led to you regaining your basic battle commands in the final dungeon. There was Brothers, Eden, Odin, Tonberry to name a few. Even if you do indulge in Triple Triad you can really gain some material rewards from it when you can turn rare cards into powerful items. There's plenty to gain from sidequests and optional bosses.


Considering everything you get from Triple Triad though and how obscene you can become very early on though, it doesn't feel like much of a reward because you're getting this stuff for bragging rights. It's not really something I'd care to use considering I'm already 1-shotting everything in sight. If the combat system and junctioning system were handled differently, I'd probably actually care about these rewards, but I don't.

To use a different example of what I did like, aside from Tetra Master, FFIX had sidequests where I felt like I earned my rewards. Choco Hot and Cold made doing all that Chocobo stuff worth while. Getting summons and better weapons from the various sidequests in the game, as well as items to learn abilities, were more useful than how FF8 handled them because the way the battle system worked. Zidane benefited more from a stronger weapon, Dagger/Garnet benefited more from a stronger summon. Why? Because they weren't overpowered and one-shotted everything within the first few hours, so it meant something. Fighting optional bosses felt better too because it didn't turn into mash X to win because I was overpowered.

Sorry I'm on a bit of a tangent here, but that's one of my complaints about FF8. It's so easy to break the game that everything else feels pointless to me. I know some people find fun in it, but I don't. If I'm to find ways to break a game, make it challenging, make it feel like I'm accomplishing something. Don't hand it to me on a silver platter. It makes the rest of the game dull in comparison. I'll digress now. That's an argument for another time.

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I'm also not sure you are right about this, you can't move at all in FFXIII so really it went backwards from XII. All the motion and action in FFXIII is automatic from attack animations. Entertainingly at one point during one fo the challenging final bosses Sazh's "backstep" animation from his regular attack combo eventually put me so far away from the final boss only his huge cutscene attacks would hit him. Besides the point moving around during battle is NOT modifying the ATB system, mobility is fine but the ATB system is about a time gauge building up and performing an action at the end of it. That's not changed at all in XII, moving out of 'physical connection' with an enemy in FFXII doesn't guarantee a miss, in fact it doesn't effect it at all. It wasn't like an action game where you could 'dodge' by moving away. The only point where it would be effective is if you were far enough distance away to count as actually fleeing and that wouldn't work against magic attacks and from my memory of FFXII some enemies were right tenacious in chasing you across maps.


Like I said, I haven't played FFXIII, so I can't make judgements on how the battle system worked, I was just going purely by how it looked. Still though, my point from FFX to FFXII still stands, based on personal experience. I can't begin to tell you how initially I was turned off from it because of how different the battle system was compared to previous entries. Even though FFX had a different battle system from the previous entries, it had its roots from the first 3 games. I know an argument can be made saying that FFXII builds on the ATB, but I think the thing for me is that it's such a different feel from anything that was in the series before (sans FFXI) that it was hard for me to adjust. On top of that, add directly controlling one character and the Gambit system into the mix and it just deviates further that it's hard to see what's at the core, whereas, compared to FFX, it didn't feel as jarring coming into it from FFIX. To me anyways. It's just my opinion based on how I felt when I first played these games.

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I can already say it's yeah...it's very un-Final Fantasy. In hindsight it might be seen as the trend-setter when anything changed but as of right now, yeah it's un-Final Fantasy. Also I can say that they've already went away from that what with XIII-2 maintaining a very similar battle system to XIII EXCEPT they added in a function where the party leader changes to another when one dies meaning it's not 'one-character' game over.

As for AI (and I think Cat says something about this as well referring to paradigm shifting), changing the class AI I'd taken into account but it's still not optimal. I'm going to give an example from my game, then maybe some more general ones. In my playthrough I'd been putting points into the "Power Circle" for Snow, the weapon that amplifies strength for him. His strength was pretty reasonable by this point and outclassed his magic stat by a big margin. So I would switch to ravager (the chain building class) which includes both elemental spells and elemental strikes and I see Snow pointlessly launching elemental spells into the foe at point blank range and question why he's not using the physical version. I take direct control of him for the next battle against the same foe and sure enough, the damage is improved notably on his physical strikes with no loss of chain gauge.

In other arguments, the AI always applies buffs in a set order without actually being valuable. Haste is one of the few notably useful buffs in FFXIII, so I'd like it out quickly. If I don't take control of the Synergist they attempt to start with bravery and faith. Even on characters I REALLY don't want both of those buffs on. Looking at my previous Snow, I don't want the AI to cast faith on him at all, just go for bravery and cast a more useful buff elsewhere.

In another example each individual has a uniquely powerful 'limit break' move that the AI will never ever use. Also in a game which is all about keeping the foe launched as much as possible it is often necessary to cancel attack chains early in order to keep the foe aloft or to capitalise on a rapidly dropping chain gauge. The AI doesn't have this capacity at all, often there is large attacks that do massive damage when the chain gauge is almost empty, designed to finish a chain (Smite I think it's called?) but I would often find the AI would often MISS the timing with this resulting in basic attack damage for a significant time investment.

Knowing how detailed the FFXII Gambit system was, I can see it solving a great number of these issues and allowing for some impressive depths of strategy.


Seeing as I haven't played FFXIII (sound like a broken record), so I can't say anything regarding this. I'll leave it to you and Cat. Sorry!

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How about Gilgamesh? Or the comedic elements of Steiner slamming into a brick wall? Rin joking about selling you items when if you lose he dies too? Dyne's touching backstory with Barret. I don't MEAN general NPCs I mean the cool characters like Maechen. Maechen was actually an example I was going to bring out. Hell I'll even give FFXIII-2's "Choco-boco-lina" as somewhat entertaining. However of course your mileage may vary on every one of these characters but to even HAVE that opportunity you need to have other characters to interact with. THIS is the area that FFXIII fails massively in as it even fails to develop it's few NPCs onscreen nevermind including interactable NPCs. This is what I was talking about where FFX 'fleshes out' it's 'narrow hallways'. It has other characters that recur, like Maechen and Rin, the Al Bhed, well I don't need to say them you'll all know there's NPCs there. That's the problem, a 'hallway' and 'linear gameplay' can be fine if there's something worth interacting with in the world to flesh it out. Heavy narrative games like the Walking Dead are indicative of this where there is only really one path of progression but it's the interactions with the other people and things in the world that make it interesting. The difference between a linear world and a "hallway" is that there's things to do in a world but a hallway is empty and boring. The "hallway" complaint is part of the problem but it's massively compounded by XIII's other problems.


Sorry, I may have mistyped, but I meant interesting NPCs. I did say there were a few NPCs over the course of the series that weren't bland, but it's very few. I loved Gilgamesh. I think out of all the games, FFIX had a lot of entertaining NPCs as far as "townies" go, and FFV had some very interesting story-based NPCs. Steiner... I don't count him. I love the guy, but you play as him, so yeah. Dyne? I didn't care for him. Honestly, FF7's NPCs weren't too interesting for me. Maybe chalk it up to the bad translation, but no one really stood out for me save for the the Turks and Hojo. Heck, aside from Rufus, I barely remember any other people from Shinra. They just didn't appeal to me. I think our mileage does vary on what we find redeemable in an NPC. That's what opinions are about. Rin wasn't real interesting to me either, but I did like his voice. Sure we hear about the hardships of the Al-Bhed from him, but I hear that everywhere else in the game and the plot that it just doesn't matter to me. It's almost akin to everyone talking about bad Sin is in the game. I get it. Let's move on. Honestly, I think that FFX is one of the weaker ones in the series when it comes to NPCs. Everyone is pretty much either a jerk or too boring to care about. I like the game, don't get me wrong. It's just playing it multiple times, I've really come to see where this game has fallen short.

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*shrugs* Like I said you're mileage may vary on things like that. I guess I didn't realise how much it meant to me until it was just a computer I was buying from in FFXIII. That or I'm just quite fond of O'aka the 23rd from X :kristoph:
Alright, I'll give you that. O'aka was cool, if only for his voice too.

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Yes a massive problem with Hope and the reason why he's so annoying. It boggles my mind that this kid is considered insightful and intelligent enough to become effectively a world leader in the next game.
For real? Okay, that's funny.

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I like characters who have resolute beliefs to be confronted with harsh realities and grow from them. It's why I appreciate folks like Steiner and Wakka more because they face their world coming down on them and need to adapt to it. It's kind of how I liked Snow, he'd want to be a hero so much convinced he was doing the right thing but he's just unable to do everything he'd want to just incapable of it. The scene where he stays behind desperately trying to smash the crystal to get Serah out, doing the only thing he knows to help, I found particularly good, compared to other people's 'revelations'.

And of course yes Sazh is the greatest redeeming factor of FFXIII. It's not enough no to redeem it fully but he made the game a bit more bearable.

As for Serah, I hear she was meant to be another party member in FFXIII but she got cut along with a lot of content in the concessions made to put the game on Xbox as well.


Steiner's story, in my opinion, was done better than Wakka's. While Wakka's was probably portrayed more realistically, I really hated him throughout the middle of the game. The narrow-mindedness of his really made me want to punch him in the face. I like Wakka overall, but geez was he a pain. I think as for Steiner, I like his story more because he isn't much of a jerk as he is a loveable oaf. Watching his resolution grow from protecting the princess while being ignorant of what's going on to becoming aware and becoming resolute on what his actions are going to be was fun to watch. Especially when he'd hit panic mode between these two conflicting view points. I just hated with Wakka, having to watch him be a racist jerk that was justified by his devotion to Yevon. I understand part of it had to do with his brother, but that narrow-minded thinking just rubbed me the wrong way.

I'll be honest here, as I'm probably one of the very few, but I actually like how Tidus overcomes his problems and how he faces them better than Wakka. Sure Tidus is naive and boisterous at times, but I think for a guy thrown into a world that's supposedly 1000 years in the future from where he is, he handles it well. Better than I would have. My biggest complaint about him really are his daddy issues. That's the one thing I really give him flack for because it's one thing he really handles immaturely.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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Lemme quick check the Wiki on it...
Although Hironobu Sakaguchi showed doubts about the transition from 2D to 3D backgrounds, voice acting, and real-time storytelling, he also stated the success of the series was due to constantly changing development and trying out new things.
Final Fantasy X was initially going to incorporate online elements, which were later dropped, and added into the next title in the series, Final Fantasy XI.
Originally, Final Fantasy X was going to feature enemies wandering visible on the field map with seamless transition into battles allowing players to move freely around the area during enemy encounters. Battle art director Shintaro Takai has explained the intention was for the battles to come across as a natural part of the story instead of an independent element.
Yoshinori Kitase has cited the inclusion of voice acting as one of the big things he wanted to introduce to Final Fantasy when the series moved from PlayStation to PlayStation 2.

Oh and I have to list this, cause it sounds hilarious.
In the early story drafts Tidus's role was vastly different from the final version; Tidus was envisioned as a plumber with the attitude of a delinquent.


Plumber!Tidus sounds HILARIOUS. Though it sounds like they got a lot of that stuff into FF12 at least.

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Selling Components is a terrible idea unless you are desperately in need for a few hundred Gil to buy something. The only thing in the Component Submenu you should ever sell are things labeled as "Can be sold for a Premium" cause those have no purpose except bring in cash.


I know it's why I said you really don't gain anything from selling components.

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And I think it's a dumb little mechanic to put in since it's actually difficult to die in XIII-2.


You you mean to say the game was too easy?

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Question. Was said Foe Weak against Magical attacks or did he have Immunity to Physical attacks? Generally the AI switches between Strikes and Spells in the Blaster role. Sometimes, if the AI realizes the Foe is weak or strong to one kind, it'll switch to only Spells or Strikes.


Like I said Cat, I took direct control of Snow for the next fight against the same foe and did more damage with my fists.

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Rin wasn't funny, Dyne was annoying (and Barret's backstory took too long and was boring)


That's all just opinions.

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Remember how you acted a decade ago? Look at yourself now. Are you smarter and more mature?
Of course. And Hope did the exact same thing.


Sure I can understand him maturing but it still doesn't excuse a somewhat average young man suddenly rising to Presidency in those ten years as well.
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I think I'm seeing now where we differentiate in opinions here on the battle system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're feeling it's not too different because at the core of each game, you're still selecting attacks and pressing A or X or whatever to use them. To me, they each feel different because of the the execution of the battle system and how it's handled. Navigating the menu may be the same, but how you're acquiring everything and what it takes to get you from acquiring an ability to using it is what makes it different to me and that's where I'm coming from.


Yeah I'd say the core gameplay is a combination of the battle system and the growth system. The growth system as I pointed out often fluctuates and changes in between series but the battle system is always rock solid dependable. Until XIII.

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I only compare because Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are the two big series owned by Square that essentially started out the same way, but went in completely different directions, so I feel the comparison is justified. Both series combat systems were very similar early on, but Final Fantasy quickly deviated and went the experimental route whereas Dragon Quest stayed with its roots. I believe about the voice acting too, it was a risk for Square at the time because, if I recall, they had never done voice acting before. Experimental to be sure and it's probably the reason why it's been heavily criticized for times when the voice acting came off as amateurish because no one really had any idea on how to direct at the time. It's gotten SO much better since then. It may come off as an aesthetic change, but I also see it as a gamble too. Trying something you've never done before in hopes of it being successful is always a risk.


Yes Voice acting is a risk as it can come across terrible in games (HAHAHAHAHAHA in X argues it still did) but it's an aesthetic bonus, it doesn't change the core think or count as a massive innovation when games left right and centre in the market are including voice acting.

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Justified or not though, it's still a terrible excuse to make the game linear. Previous Final Fantasies have also had "go from point A to point B" plots, but still left a lot to explore in between. FFX doesn't really do that, save for very few instances. You're bound to a narrow path and you can't deviate from it. If the areas were more open-ended like in FFXII, it probably wouldn't have been so bad. I think you can still have a whole, reach the final destination area, without having to put restrictions on the exploration. It's the same problem I see with FFXIII, it's just the "hallways" feel a bit longer because the areas are bigger.


A terrible excuse? Whether it's justified or not? The definition of Justification : having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.

It's a paradox man.

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I get the system. I just didn't like it. Suppose it was an instance of "they changed it, now it sucks" to me.


Just saying FFXII definitely didn't have a low-gold payout.

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Considering everything you get from Triple Triad though and how obscene you can become very early on though, it doesn't feel like much of a reward because you're getting this stuff for bragging rights. It's not really something I'd care to use considering I'm already 1-shotting everything in sight. If the combat system and junctioning system were handled differently, I'd probably actually care about these rewards, but I don't.

To use a different example of what I did like, aside from Tetra Master, FFIX had sidequests where I felt like I earned my rewards. Choco Hot and Cold made doing all that Chocobo stuff worth while. Getting summons and better weapons from the various sidequests in the game, as well as items to learn abilities, were more useful than how FF8 handled them because the way the battle system worked. Zidane benefited more from a stronger weapon, Dagger/Garnet benefited more from a stronger summon. Why? Because they weren't overpowered and one-shotted everything within the first few hours, so it meant something. Fighting optional bosses felt better too because it didn't turn into mash X to win because I was overpowered.


*shrugs* Regardless of whether it's easy to break the game or not my point was there are actually significant valuable rewards in FF8.
As for feeling like you earned your rewards I'm not entirely sure I follow you either. Perhaps it's a personal thing but there's some real challenges involved in it. To get Tonberry King you need to marathon dangerous tonberries before fighting him as a boss, There's a whole mystery quest required to unlock Doomtrain. Odin is a short-timed dungeon or else he instantly kills the party. Brothers was locked away in a maze. Like I said perhaps it is a personal thing but I felt I had to earn my bonuses in that game.

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Like I said, I haven't played FFXIII, so I can't make judgements on how the battle system worked, I was just going purely by how it looked. Still though, my point from FFX to FFXII still stands, based on personal experience. I can't begin to tell you how initially I was turned off from it because of how different the battle system was compared to previous entries. Even though FFX had a different battle system from the previous entries, it had its roots from the first 3 games. I know an argument can be made saying that FFXII builds on the ATB, but I think the thing for me is that it's such a different feel from anything that was in the series before (sans FFXI) that it was hard for me to adjust. On top of that, add directly controlling one character and the Gambit system into the mix and it just deviates further that it's hard to see what's at the core, whereas, compared to FFX, it didn't feel as jarring coming into it from FFIX. To me anyways. It's just my opinion based on how I felt when I first played these games.


I find it strange you'd be so intolerant to FFXII's battle system on how different it looks and yet this debate rose up from you defending how FFXIII looks so different. :ron:

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Sorry, I may have mistyped, but I meant interesting NPCs. I did say there were a few NPCs over the course of the series that weren't bland, but it's very few. I loved Gilgamesh. I think out of all the games, FFIX had a lot of entertaining NPCs as far as "townies" go, and FFV had some very interesting story-based NPCs. Steiner... I don't count him. I love the guy, but you play as him, so yeah. Dyne? I didn't care for him. Honestly, FF7's NPCs weren't too interesting for me. Maybe chalk it up to the bad translation, but no one really stood out for me save for the the Turks and Hojo. Heck, aside from Rufus, I barely remember any other people from Shinra. They just didn't appeal to me. I think our mileage does vary on what we find redeemable in an NPC. That's what opinions are about. Rin wasn't real interesting to me either, but I did like his voice. Sure we hear about the hardships of the Al-Bhed from him, but I hear that everywhere else in the game and the plot that it just doesn't matter to me. It's almost akin to everyone talking about bad Sin is in the game. I get it. Let's move on. Honestly, I think that FFX is one of the weaker ones in the series when it comes to NPCs. Everyone is pretty much either a jerk or too boring to care about. I like the game, don't get me wrong. It's just playing it multiple times, I've really come to see where this game has fallen short.


Perhaps I shouldn't have provided examples, it's easy to get sidetracked on them and miss the point sorry. The point was you need to include NPCs for them to be interesting and FFXIII keeps it cast minimalistic with nearly no interactable NPCs.

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Steiner's story, in my opinion, was done better than Wakka's. While Wakka's was probably portrayed more realistically, I really hated him throughout the middle of the game. The narrow-mindedness of his really made me want to punch him in the face. I like Wakka overall, but geez was he a pain. I think as for Steiner, I like his story more because he isn't much of a jerk as he is a loveable oaf. Watching his resolution grow from protecting the princess while being ignorant of what's going on to becoming aware and becoming resolute on what his actions are going to be was fun to watch. Especially when he'd hit panic mode between these two conflicting view points. I just hated with Wakka, having to watch him be a racist jerk that was justified by his devotion to Yevon. I understand part of it had to do with his brother, but that narrow-minded thinking just rubbed me the wrong way.


Wakka's story I'd argue is more serious but I don't blame him, I know in his heart he's a good man he's just been raised with such hatred towards Al Bhed which was only reinforced when he lost his brother. Then he saw the other side of that when Home got destroyed with Rikku. The greater the distance to cover makes for the better character in my eyes.

Tidus as a free-thinking, stranger to Spira can obviously see what's wrong, Wakka has to overcome everything in his life to do the right thing.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Yeah, I consider myself biased on this, but I just didn't feel like FF8 gave anything worth while for me. Granted, probably ranking it only slightly above Final Fantasy 2, the game I loathe most in the series, definitely makes me very opinionated on this matter.

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I find it strange you'd be so intolerant to FFXII's battle system on how different it looks and yet this debate rose up from you defending how FFXIII looks so different.

Wait, hold up! I was defending the direction that FFXIII took because I was trying to make a point that the Final Fantasy series experiments. I never justified as to whether I like it or not. I just disagreed with your point stating that the series has never really experimented until FFXIII. Sorry if that was misinterpreted. I didn't care much for the direction FFXII took either, as it felt a bit jarring to me, the same way FFXIII seems to be compared to FFXII. Both games experimented in the series, as many games before them did. I had just wanted to defend the point that FFXIII isn't the first one to experiment with the formula, but it's probably taken even more risks that the previous installments.

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Perhaps I shouldn't have provided examples, it's easy to get sidetracked on them and miss the point sorry. The point was you need to include NPCs for them to be interesting and FFXIII keeps it cast minimalistic with nearly no interactable NPCs.

Oh, I understand now. Honestly, considering some of the quality of the GENERIC NPCs in the FF series (emphasis on Generic), I don't think I'd miss the NPC interaction in the FFXIII much. I think it just becomes more glaringly obvious how much they're missed when some of your main party lacks characters you can really get into. For example, FFXII had Vaan, Penelo, and Ashe to me, who I just couldn't get into as characters. The first two were bland and Ashe was all revenge driven, and having NPCs to break up that boring monotony I got from those 3 was nice. I can that not having those NPCs present in FFXIII constitutes as a problem when you don't like the characters you have. Thankfully, I do think Vaan and Penelo were MUCH more interesting in FFTA2 since they became a focal point and weren't just around for the ride.

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Wakka's story I'd argue is more serious but I don't blame him, I know in his heart he's a good man he's just been raised with such hatred towards Al Bhed which was only reinforced when he lost his brother. Then he saw the other side of that when Home got destroyed with Rikku. The greater the distance to cover makes for the better character in my eyes.

Tidus as a free-thinking, stranger to Spira can obviously see what's wrong, Wakka has to overcome everything in his life to do the right thing.

Oh, I know all about Wakka and I'm glad he overcomes all these things. Doesn't mean I still like him during that arc in FFX though. I just liked him before Operation Mi'hen and after (I forget where) the part where he finds out Yevon is nothing more than a bogus religion. I just hate that there's a big chunk of game where he's intolerable, because he seems like a nice guy.

Another tangent, but another thing I do get confused on about FFX is when people harp on the voice acting and instantly use the laughing scene as a reference. Is it bad? Yes. But in the context of the story, it's intentional. It's horrible laughing on purpose because neither Yuna or Tidus are happy and thus they force themselves. That's why it sounds bad. They're not supposed to be laughing for real. If you play any other section of the game where they're laughing for real in the context of the story, it's much more convincing because it's supposed to be.

I just think some of the direction the actors took were amateurish at times, but I don't think the VA's themselves were terrible. They had some talented people. My bigger complaint when it comes to the voice acting is more in line with some of the random NPCs the characters meet. I don't mean like Maechen, Rin, or O'aka, I mean the more minor ones...though I can attest that I don't care for Shelinda's voice much. But no, some of the minor ones voiced lines act like they haven't really acted much. A good example for me are the fans Tidus interacts with at the beginning of the game. It feels sloppy to me.
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Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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While Wakka's was probably portrayed more realistically, I really hated him throughout the middle of the game. The narrow-mindedness of his really made me want to punch him in the face. I like Wakka overall, but geez was he a pain.


Urgh, I know, right? Especially when it came to the Al Bhed. No, Wakka, shut up. I do not in any way believe you dislike Al Bhed because they are against Yevon's Teachings or were somehow, in any indirect way, responsible for your brother's death. You are just a prejudiced little weedbag that hates them out of principal. Especially obvious when he's okay with Rikku at first, but then gets all "stone-faced and glarey" when he finds out she is an Al Bhed. Not that I think it's difficult to recognize an Al Bhed in that game...

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you mean to say the game was too easy?


XIII-2? Yes. Way too easy. Only proper challenge in that game came from the Arena DLC.

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That's all just opinions.


Just as your take on the fact that you find Rin and Dyne and those people interesting or funny.

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Sure I can understand him maturing but it still doesn't excuse a somewhat average young man suddenly rising to Presidency in those ten years as well.


He wasn't president of the entire world in AF 10. He was a director in the Academy, something that was built with his help and his fathers, too, from what I remember. Yeah, nepotism. So? He still matured and worked more.

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I'll be honest here, as I'm probably one of the very few, but I actually like how Tidus overcomes his problems and how he faces them better than Wakka. Sure Tidus is naive and boisterous at times, but I think for a guy thrown into a world that's supposedly 1000 years in the future from where he is, he handles it well.


I've said it before, I mostly hate how dumb he's portrayed. Yeah, he's a sports jock but those don't always mean someone is an idiot to the core. He may be in a world that is supposedly 1000 Years in the future, but he seems to be completely incapable of either forming a coherent, logical thought of his own without someone practically spelling things out for him or showing some decent respect for that world's religion.

Like running into the Cloister of Trials. He's told a summoner has been in there for a whole day, but has guardians with them, and while there is a bit of uneasiness about it, it's nothing dramatic. And despite being told that it's forbidden, he basically shoves a verbal and metamophorical finger into their religion's rules and does his own thing.

Yes, as it turns out the religion was a giant pile of hypocrisy mixed with fraud, but that doesn't excuse his early behavior. It's just rude, it's like going into a Church, spitting into the holy water, using the altar cloths as handkerchiefs and rubbing your ass into Jesus' statue's face. You don't do that. You show respect to their religion, whether you simply don't understand it or just don't share it.

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Another tangent, but another thing I do get confused on about FFX is when people harp on the voice acting and instantly use the laughing scene as a reference. Is it bad? Yes. But in the context of the story, it's intentional. It's horrible laughing on purpose because neither Yuna or Tidus are happy and thus they force themselves. That's why it sounds bad. They're not supposed to be laughing for real. If you play any other section of the game where they're laughing for real in the context of the story, it's much more convincing because it's supposed to be.


Of course the laugh is supposed to be awkward and ear-bleedingly terrible, but that doesn't excuse that too-long cacophany being forced onto the player. I have to mute the entire scene cause I can't stand it. Also, not a deal with the VAing, but with the FMV animation. During the pond scene between Yuna and Tidus, Yuna has a nice smile on her face... but Tidus has a freaking clenching-teeth-to-keep-the-smile-zombie-brain-eater-smile on his face. It's just creepy to look at. Can't watch that scene, either.

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Just as your take on the fact that you find Rin and Dyne and those people interesting or funny.


Yes I'm aware...I said mileage may vary on supporting cast members but to even have the chance of a positive opinion on supporting cast members you need to HAVE them in the first place. FFXIII is extremely minimalist with nearly no one to interact with.

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He wasn't president of the entire world in AF 10. He was a director in the Academy, something that was built with his help and his fathers, too, from what I remember. Yeah, nepotism. So? He still matured and worked more.


Wiki time:
The Academy is the institute that governs the world's people

Yeah...he pretty much IS president of the entire world being the leader of that you'd think the Academy in charge of Science would be smarter about those things than just allowing nepotism also I'll point out that MOST of Hopes plans in XIII-2 lead to disaster so perhaps they are actively reflecting what a bad leader he is.

Also from the wiki:
Bartholomew Estheim was originally an economist for a Sanctum-affiliated institute. Following the catastrophe, the newly formed provisional government employed him as a financial advisor, where he was instrumental in the founding of the Academy.


A financial advisor shouldn't really have the power to install his son as head of effectively the most prominent ruling force on the planet.

As an aside, my personal opinion on the matter is they gave him the position because so many people loved his stupid little woobie pretty boy face character in the first game, and they wanted him to have a prominent role in the second game, even if it makes no sense.

Sazh was always the one who got on better with all this strange Pulse tech in XIII, he's also older and wiser than Hope! Yet he's relegated to the role of DLC character.

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Wait, hold up! I was defending the direction that FFXIII took because I was trying to make a point that the Final Fantasy series experiments. I never justified as to whether I like it or not. I just disagreed with your point stating that the series has never really experimented until FFXIII. Sorry if that was misinterpreted. I didn't care much for the direction FFXII took either, as it felt a bit jarring to me, the same way FFXIII seems to be compared to FFXII. Both games experimented in the series, as many games before them did. I had just wanted to defend the point that FFXIII isn't the first one to experiment with the formula, but it's probably taken even more risks that the previous installments.


If that's the case I'll concede the Final Fantasy series experiments by your standards, it's a given and easy to observe that no two games have completely identical systems. However there's still the point that FFXIII has experimented too much and strayed too far from the core philosophies and components in a Final Fantasy game. While yes the series does experiment they never stray too far from what is recognisable, the battle system almost never changes and when it did it was minor, compared to the drastic completely different style of XIII.

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Oh, I understand now. Honestly, considering some of the quality of the GENERIC NPCs in the FF series (emphasis on Generic), I don't think I'd miss the NPC interaction in the FFXIII much. I think it just becomes more glaringly obvious how much they're missed when some of your main party lacks characters you can really get into. For example, FFXII had Vaan, Penelo, and Ashe to me, who I just couldn't get into as characters. The first two were bland and Ashe was all revenge driven, and having NPCs to break up that boring monotony I got from those 3 was nice. I can that not having those NPCs present in FFXIII constitutes as a problem when you don't like the characters you have. Thankfully, I do think Vaan and Penelo were MUCH more interesting in FFTA2 since they became a focal point and weren't just around for the ride.


Yeah XII (like X) had a real identity crisis with which protagonist was actually the main protagonist. Arguably I'd say it's Ashe given her driving most of the plot elements with the others being along for the ride but I heard Basch was originally meant to be the main character over Vaan but polls came in that he wasn't 'pretty boy' enough for Japan and so they swapped it onto Vaan.

Generic NPCs aren't what I mean as much but I do like supporting cast members as a way of fleshing out a world. FFXIII neglects this tradition wildly and provides you with a largely uninteractive world. That's why I think it's more deserving of 'Hallway' than FFX is as FFX did have things to interact with and do in its world.
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FFXIII is extremely minimalist with nearly no one to interact with.


Which I'm quite glad about because I just don't see the point in having NPCs or supporting cast that isn't at least semi-important. And none of those NPCs you listed were actually all that important. All NPCs do for me in videogames are either act as cardboard cutouts to make the world seem populated or get in my way and prolong my walking times.

Sure you may say "They had their purposeful scene" and I'd agree. They had their purpose and then they're gone again. They're not important to the plot. I even border on putting Tifa into this category because, well, she has her purpose with Cloud in the Lifestream during the middle of the game, but other than that, she serves no good purpose. She's the other girl in a love triangle that isn't believeable and given the Aerith thing, even that purpose disappears pretty fast. One scene Wonder.

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Yeah...he pretty much IS president of the entire world being the leader of that you'd think the Academy in charge of Science would be smarter about those things than just allowing nepotism also I'll point out that MOST of Hopes plans in XIII-2 lead to disaster so perhaps they are actively reflecting what a bad leader he is.


The Proto Fal'Cie type only failed cause of a Paradox. Yeah seems like a dumb explanation, but fuck it, that's basically the explanation for everything in XIII-2. The Graviton Core plan worked out just fine. He made a time capsule that, yeah, only lets you travel in time forwards, but it worked just fine... really, aside from the Fal'Cie plan, which technically wasn't his fault in failing, none of his plans were that terrible.

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Sazh was always the one who got on better with all this strange Pulse tech in XIII, he's also older and wiser than Hope! Yet he's relegated to the role of DLC character.


Yeah but... face it. Sazh doesn't have the face or personality or anything that "gives him the right" to have a major role in an FF game. It's like a fat FF protagonist, it just doesn't exist. No, it has nothing to do with Sazh being black, but with the fact that... he's older. His face isn't pretty.
Look at Angeal from Crisis Core. He looked... decent enough. He looked older, although he was only 25 and that's only 2 years older than Hope, and he got a mentor role. Of course, didn't end well for him, but you get the idea. Looks nice, but not nice enough for major character. Sazh wasn't even all that important in XIII.
Although it is disgusting how he got shafted aside in XIII-2 and LR. But then, that happened to most of the cast in XIII-2.
Seriously, Snow's cameo serves no point except a cameo.

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However there's still the point that FFXIII has experimented too much and strayed too far from the core philosophies and components in a Final Fantasy game. While yes the series does experiment they never stray too far from what is recognisable, the battle system almost never changes and when it did it was minor, compared to the drastic completely different style of XIII.


I'm still not entirely sure why this is such a big deal. So they experimented a whole lot for one game. Some liked it, some didn't... nothing says or oglibes them to keep some or any of the experimented stuff in the next games. They might take something over but alter it. I hated the Summoning cutscenes in VII and VIII and in X, thank God, there was an option to shorten them if you've seen them once in full.

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CatMuto wrote:
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FFXIII is extremely minimalist with nearly no one to interact with.


Which I'm quite glad about because I just don't see the point in having NPCs or supporting cast that isn't at least semi-important. And none of those NPCs you listed were actually all that important. All NPCs do for me in videogames are either act as cardboard cutouts to make the world seem populated or get in my way and prolong my walking times.

Sure you may say "They had their purposeful scene" and I'd agree. They had their purpose and then they're gone again. They're not important to the plot..

You could say that X's generic NPCs weren't important, but then you'd be missing out on a huge plot detail. After the failure of Operation Mi'hen, several of the NPCs will lament that they shouldn't have gone against Yevon's teachings. Considering details revealed further in the plot, it becomes clear that this was Seymour's reason for having the crusaders participate in the operation. Now tell me, when playing a video game, which one leaves a bigger impact: a cutscene where the main characters talk about the effects of something, or seeing the effects for yourself?
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