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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Quote:
You could say that X's generic NPCs weren't important, but then you'd be missing out on a huge plot detail. After the failure of Operation Mi'hen, several of the NPCs will lament that they shouldn't have gone against Yevon's teachings. Considering details revealed further in the plot, it becomes clear that this was Seymour's reason for having the crusaders participate in the operation. Now tell me, when playing a video game, which one leaves a bigger impact: a cutscene where the main characters talk about the effects of something, or seeing the effects for yourself?


Wasn't it more Kinoc's plan to have the crusaders participate and all that? The entire thing was a waste of time, anyway, I hated playing that part cause it's a total detour from what we originally planned.

And if the main character talking about an effect is Tidus, I'd rather he shut up. Then again, X wasn't exactly subtle with Operation Mi'hen. With all those tracking shots lingering over the corpses and pyreflies... Gee, I wonder... should I feel... bad about this?

Also, call me too Genre Savvy, but I overall do not trust any religion if it's in any way important to the plot. They generally turn out to be full of crooks, traitors, liars and hypocrites, so X doing that wasn't anything new for me nor was it a new thing overall. X trying to make me think we should follow Yevon's teachings? Yeah, not working. :ron:

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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
You could say that X's generic NPCs weren't important, but then you'd be missing out on a huge plot detail. After the failure of Operation Mi'hen, several of the NPCs will lament that they shouldn't have gone against Yevon's teachings. Considering details revealed further in the plot, it becomes clear that this was Seymour's reason for having the crusaders participate in the operation. Now tell me, when playing a video game, which one leaves a bigger impact: a cutscene where the main characters talk about the effects of something, or seeing the effects for yourself?


Wasn't it more Kinoc's plan to have the crusaders participate and all that? The entire thing was a waste of time, anyway, I hated playing that part cause it's a total detour from what we originally planned.

And if the main character talking about an effect is Tidus, I'd rather he shut up. Then again, X wasn't exactly subtle with Operation Mi'hen. With all those tracking shots lingering over the corpses and pyreflies... Gee, I wonder... should I feel... bad about this?

Also, call me too Genre Savvy, but I overall do not trust any religion if it's in any way important to the plot. They generally turn out to be full of crooks, traitors, liars and hypocrites, so X doing that wasn't anything new for me nor was it a new thing overall. X trying to make me think we should follow Yevon's teachings? Yeah, not working. :ron:

C-A

That's not even a case of being Genre Savvy, it was obvious as soon as Tidus recognized the prayer stance. Not like XIII was subtle about defying gods, either.
Regardless of whether or not it was a waste of time, I still say it's an example of how generic NPCs can be used to show the player important plot details, rather than the game just talking about plot details. In other narrative mediums, the rule is "show, don't tell." When applied to a video game, this becomes "do, don't show." Maybe a cutscene could tell the same plot details, but actually speaking to NPCs gets the player involved.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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I'll kinda admit that operation Mi'hen is kind of a waste of plot in the game. If you take it out of the game, it really wouldn't change anything.

Spoiler: Why I think Mi'hen isn't necessary as plot
If you say it shows Sin's power. Well, we've seen enough of that already.
If you say it shows that they shouldn't use machina or that it's not effective. It's been stated many, many times already in game, and seeing Sin's power, it didn't need to be proven.
If you say it's to show how corrupt the Maesters are. They get A LOT of that later in the game. It's not really important here.
If you say it confirms for Tidus that Sin is Jecht. Um, I'm sure that exposition has happened a lot already.


Really, I think the ONLY thing you get from this scene, even by a stretch, is probably establishing that Kinoc and Auron had some history and even then, I don't really recall that getting expanded on too much, so it's kinda pointless.

Yeah, it kills off the crusaders, but to the overall plot, it changes nothing. Yuna could have gone straight from Luca to Djose Temple and nothing would have changed plot wise. Besides, I do feel that anything Mi'hen tries to address plot wise, the rest of the game handles so much better, rendering this part useless.

I'm sure this part was probably made for more CG cutscenes, which I still think look cool. Sin and his lasers.

As for the NPCs and their regret on this whole thing... I'm kinda meh on that. We already had a whole scene showcase it and whatnot. My thing though is that they're not interesting to talk to because they're all saying the same thing. Like all those who talk about Sin is dangerous and what not. Yeah, I get it. I'm sorry, but when the game has already made a huge point that this thing has been tried time and time before, with machina vs. Sin, and Sin has won every single time killing tons of people, it's really hard to take their regret seriously and you just sit there and wonder why these people were stupid to try again. It kinda bothers me when the game is establishing a point about sin, yet for some reason, these people aren't learning from the mistakes of their past.

Yeah, you can blame desperation of wanting to defeat sin, but if that's the case, why are you wasting time having the summoners do their thing? From my understanding, the crusaders may have defied the teachings of Yevon, but they still have faith in the summoners and how their methods defeat sin. It feels more like a waste in a lost cause when they know there's better methods for getting rid of sin, if only for a little while. It would have made more sense for the Al-Bhed to have been behind the operation, but then again from what I've seen in the game, while they may have contributed some machina and a couple of their helpers, they aren't that stupid to try something like that because they know better.

If any of the other stuff I put up is considered spoilers, I'll edit my post accordingly.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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sumguy28 wrote:
That's not even a case of being Genre Savvy, it was obvious as soon as Tidus recognized the prayer stance. Not like XIII was subtle about defying gods, either.
Regardless of whether or not it was a waste of time, I still say it's an example of how generic NPCs can be used to show the player important plot details, rather than the game just talking about plot details. In other narrative mediums, the rule is "show, don't tell." When applied to a video game, this becomes "do, don't show." Maybe a cutscene could tell the same plot details, but actually speaking to NPCs gets the player involved.


The prayer stance has nothing to do with Yevon's religion being a pile of shit
I'd rather see the effects, than be told by generic NPCs how much they regret doing something. I'll just quote Doug Walker, although he was talking about the parents in Tangled: "I love the parents, and they don't even get a single line in this movie. All of their scenes is just great animation, and only told by their expressions."
And I kind of agree. I'd rather see downtrodden NPCs walking differently after a major event than having to talk to them walking around with almost a spring in their step, telling me how they totally regret that thing that caused a tragedy.

Quote:
If you say it shows Sin's power. Well, we've seen enough of that already.


Yeah. We saw that Sin kills babies. And that was in Kilika. And was still kind of a pointless scene to make... except for the overly important Yuna Dancing.

Quote:
If you say it shows that they shouldn't use machina or that it's not effective. It's been stated many, many times already in game, and seeing Sin's power, it didn't need to be proven.


You could say this could be a reason for Operation Mi'hen, but then gets blasted late in the game when it's proven that missiles hit from the airship did damage Sin significantly.

Quote:
If you say it confirms for Tidus that Sin is Jecht. Um, I'm sure that exposition has happened a lot already.


Yup. That's half of Auron's dialogue for majority of the Journey. You know, next to "Stick close to Yuna cause I totally ship you with her."

Quote:
Really, I think the ONLY thing you get from this scene, even by a stretch, is probably establishing that Kinoc and Auron had some history and even then, I don't really recall that getting expanded on too much, so it's kinda pointless.


No... no, the game practically doesn't expand it, except for that one line Auron can say during a battle, "Kinoc was my friend". Other than that, Kinoc could've been written out of the plot. I mean, what did he do? He was a Meister, so? Nothing is made out of him being an old friend of Auron's. What, his being killed by Seymour somehow proves... that Seymour is evil? I dunno, I think we kind of got that message as soon as Seymour first appeared on screen. His theme already kind of gives it away.

Maybe Mi'hen was for Tidus to yell at his dad? You know, cause we didn't have enough of that yet. :ron:

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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
Anthony wrote:
Well how do you THINK Sin got to Dream Zanarkand? Including Auron.


It's Sin. It can do whatever the hell it wants. And like I said, think of the situation when Jecht became Sin. He didn't know he could ever go back to his home or see his son again. So becoming Sin never had anything to do with wanting to be killed by his son's hands. He became Sin because he knew he couldn't go back and figured that, if he became the Final Aeon that might defeat Sin for good, well then he would've done some good in Spira.

The original question was why the fayth would bring Tidus into Spira. Not Sin.

C-A


The fayth brought Tidus to Spira to end the dreams.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Anthony wrote:
The fayth brought Tidus to Spira to end the dreams.


Again, why Tidus of all people?

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In contrast with Mi'hen, I do think Sin attacking Kilika had way more relevance to the plot. Sure, we saw Sin attack Zanarkand, but this the first time we're in a world where Sin is prevalent everywhere and it's the first time we really get to see him attacking a full blown town, killing many innocents, men, women, children, without being provoked by Machina. Proving that sin is just a mindless killing creature and no one is safe. It also gives reason to introduce sendings into the game and explain their purpose as it becomes a big plot point later on. Seeing the reactions from the people in the CG cutscene while Yuna does her sendings have WAY more impact on me than just talking to those after Mi'hen. I felt powerful emotions from that scene. I may be in the minority, but I prefer reactions over just flavorless text.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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Quote:
I may be in the minority, but I prefer reactions over just flavorless text.


Yeah, I'm the same. I think visual can be done better than having NPCs just tell me stuff.

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CatMuto wrote:
Anthony wrote:
The fayth brought Tidus to Spira to end the dreams.


Again, why Tidus of all people?

C-A


Maybe he is the son of Jecht who became Sin?
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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This is a stretch, but my guess is since Jecht is Sin, they felt that Tidus was the only one who could reach out to him. I think a part of it too had to do with Jecht wanting Tidus coming to Spira, hence the whole sending Auron to watch him, and when Sin showed up in Zanarkand, it was Jecht's way of saying he was ready for Auron to bring Tidus over. It's never really explained in detail really why it's Tidus, but this is just what I gather from the vague hints in plot that the game brings up.

Honestly, without Tidus, the cycle of Sin would just repeat over and over again, same as always.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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dullahan1 wrote:
Honestly, without Tidus, the cycle of Sin would just repeat over and over again, same as always.


Yeah but being indebted to TIDUS of all people... plus, what did HE do that was so freaking great? In my playthroughs, Yuna was a great magician, with Holy and 1 MP usage. Auron hit like a truck and Lulu did the same with her magic. Tidus... used Hastega. But other than that, in terms of ideas or story, he doesn't do anything great. Oh wait, he says they should use the Hymn... great. Nobody else could've come up with that at some point? Then again, given how it's heard so many times in the game, you'd think it'd already lose all effect on Jecht. And again, it's YUNA who summons her Aeons to get possessed. Tidus... just stands around.

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It's not Tidus' skills that are necessary, it's his position as an outsider.

Much like Wakka, too much of Spira is too far indoctrinated to break out of the Cycle of Sin. Jecht saw this while he was travelling through but...well...they weren't strong enough to beat Yunalesca and so had to continue the cycle.

Also depending on how much of a Chessmaster Jecht is, perhaps he intentionally became Sin knowing he could pull his son into the world.

As it was, Tidus was enough of an upstart to show everyone why it was so wrong or at least shout loud enough and be non-conformist enough for it to work. It wasn't any kind of skill Tidus had that mattered it was just the view of an outsider who could sway people that was needed. Sure you could argue that Jecht could have pulled anyone through who would see it this way but he knew that once Auron explained WHO Sin is Tidus would be linked and compelled to kill him and so would probably follow a summoner, especially given his past issues with Jecht.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
but he knew that once Auron explained WHO Sin is Tidus would be linked and compelled to kill him and so would probably follow a summoner, especially given his past issues with Jecht.


Um... Jecht must really not know his son. His son is a teen, on hormones. He would've followed Yuna just for the sake of trying to get a gainder at her boobs despite her black bra being visible for the whole duration of the game.

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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
but he knew that once Auron explained WHO Sin is Tidus would be linked and compelled to kill him and so would probably follow a summoner, especially given his past issues with Jecht.


Um... Jecht must really not know his son. His son is a teen, on hormones. He would've followed Yuna just for the sake of trying to get a gainder at her boobs despite her black bra being visible for the whole duration of the game.

C-A


:ron: Did....Did you play the game? You've extrapolated a stereotype of teenagers to be the assumption everyone would use rather than actually considering people's perspectives on a character.

Whatever, you'll note it's immediately after the "Sin is Jecht" scene that Tidus officially declares he's going along as Yuna's guardian.

Jecht called it right, he couldn't have known Yuna would become a summoner or his son would meet up with Yuna. He only knew that Auron was looking for him and that once informed Tidus would pursue Jecht.
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From what I remember of the big reveal of Jecht is Sin are the following snippets.

"ALL OF IT! ALL, ALL, ALL OF IT IS YOUR FAULT, AURON!"
"Jecht is Sin. Sin is Jecht." (<- although this could apply to a LOT of Auron's scenes)
"What am I supposed to do now?"
"Come or don't come. It's entirely up to you."
"I don't really have a choice...!"

Granted, this is after a year or so of not viewing that scene and I'm doing a quick 1:30 AM translation of the snippets of the Japanese version I remember, but it really never sounded like Tidus was resolute to become Yuna's guardian at that point. In fact, you can see him, joining the group, dragging his feet and looking exhausted, but also huffy like a little kid that's being forced to go to this boring thing. He doesn't even sound enthusiastic at all.

If you are referring to the scene of Operation Mi'hen here Tidus yells like a moron and runs into the water, well, we're already pointed out how that entire thing was not really necessary as it didn't reveal anything new. The only thing it might've done is give us a Red Herring by making Seymour a temporary party member. (Not that it's a good red herring... again, look at his appearance and theme)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
From what I remember of the big reveal of Jecht is Sin are the following snippets.

"ALL OF IT! ALL, ALL, ALL OF IT IS YOUR FAULT, AURON!"
"Jecht is Sin. Sin is Jecht." (<- although this could apply to a LOT of Auron's scenes)
"What am I supposed to do now?"
"Come or don't come. It's entirely up to you."
"I don't really have a choice...!"

Granted, this is after a year or so of not viewing that scene and I'm doing a quick 1:30 AM translation of the snippets of the Japanese version I remember, but it really never sounded like Tidus was resolute to become Yuna's guardian at that point. In fact, you can see him, joining the group, dragging his feet and looking exhausted, but also huffy like a little kid that's being forced to go to this boring thing. He doesn't even sound enthusiastic at all.

If you are referring to the scene of Operation Mi'hen here Tidus yells like a moron and runs into the water, well, we're already pointed out how that entire thing was not really necessary as it didn't reveal anything new. The only thing it might've done is give us a Red Herring by making Seymour a temporary party member. (Not that it's a good red herring... again, look at his appearance and theme)

C-A


Seymour was a fucking power hungry asshole who needed to be put down a long time ago.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
From what I remember of the big reveal of Jecht is Sin are the following snippets.

"ALL OF IT! ALL, ALL, ALL OF IT IS YOUR FAULT, AURON!"
"Jecht is Sin. Sin is Jecht." (<- although this could apply to a LOT of Auron's scenes)
"What am I supposed to do now?"
"Come or don't come. It's entirely up to you."
"I don't really have a choice...!"

Granted, this is after a year or so of not viewing that scene and I'm doing a quick 1:30 AM translation of the snippets of the Japanese version I remember, but it really never sounded like Tidus was resolute to become Yuna's guardian at that point. In fact, you can see him, joining the group, dragging his feet and looking exhausted, but also huffy like a little kid that's being forced to go to this boring thing. He doesn't even sound enthusiastic at all.

If you are referring to the scene of Operation Mi'hen here Tidus yells like a moron and runs into the water, well, we're already pointed out how that entire thing was not really necessary as it didn't reveal anything new. The only thing it might've done is give us a Red Herring by making Seymour a temporary party member. (Not that it's a good red herring... again, look at his appearance and theme)

C-A


Well yeah...I'd be pretty dejected after learning my Dad was a monster who kills literally thousands (millions?) of innocent people and terrorises the world too. Though yeah, that is the scene I was referring to. Whether he looks enthusiastic about it or not the outcome is the same.

Jecht picked his son because he needed an outsider with a new perspective who would want to fight Sin. He knew his son hated him and trusted Auron to set him on the path to fighting Sin.

Whether he was 'happy' or 'enthusiastic' about it or not is irrelevant.
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Pierre actually made my point very well. It's not the whole Tidus suggesting the hymn, though it comes more from knowing Jecht. It's the fact that he is an outsider. Everyone else in Spira is in their daily routine, doing what they feel is right. Building machina in vain to try to beat Sin. Sending summoners to defeat Sin, just for him to come back. The game says they've been doing this for 1000 years. Yeah, no one has questioned it, and I think it's more of a fact of, it works for them. It brings the calm. Why fix what isn't broken in their eyes.

One thing that made Tidus stand out, and even though the complaints are in that he acts like an idiot, is his constant questioning of 'why'. Why they do this, why they do that. The first time that it really comes into question is on Mi'ihen Highroad at sunset, when Tidus starts asking Yuna about Yevon and the purpose of Sin. She answers honestly that she doesn't know, that she has never thought about it before. If you factor in how Wakka, Lulu, and Kimahri are, it's a good assumption that no one has given much thought on other ways to try to break the cycle.

Except for the Al Bhed. But their attempts are futile as Sin destroys everything the create. Yeah, Tidus may not be the brightest at times, it's why he needs Auron, but he serves as enough of a catalyst to start making these people question and start thinking outside the box. It's no wonder that the group team up with the Al Bhed before the fight with Sin. They're the only group who are willing to try new things in hopes of beating Sin.

If Tidus wasn't there in the first place, Yuna would have done her pilgrimage like every other summoner before her. Wakka, Lulu, and Kimahri wouldn't have done anything differently. Auron would have been subjected to watching the same thing over that happened with Braska because he too would have no idea of what to do as well, living in Spira. I'm sure he could only do so much, but the addition of Tidus makes it work. I even think having someone like Rikku in the party expands on the different options the party needs to open their eyes to.

I follow it up with this too. Wakka, and especially Lulu, come of as extremely skeptical, only accepting to believe what they've witnessed with their eyes. Tidus's presence helps to change these characters, to help them become open-minded. I highly doubt a character like Lulu would for a moment believe in Tidus's Zanarkand if he wasn't pushy and ignorant.

Another thing I feel that helps Tidus is that being an outsider, he's not quick to judge. It's always Yevon vs. Al Bhed. Anyone who helps Al Bhed is considered a traitor to Yevon, so no one is willing to join forces with them and vice-versa. Everyone sticks with their own agenda. Because Tidus is an outsider, he's more open-minded to ideas. He's not like Wakka where all machina are bad. He's not like Lulu where he has to stick to the pilgrimage path as it's the only right way. I think his presence is what sets off saving the world.

Sure, in the end, Yuna is the hero and has every right to be. I consider Tidus to just be a catalyst in all this. A gear that sets the whole thing in motion. Is he the greatest protagonist? Not really. I like him, but he's really far from being a character who can prove his usefullness. He has his moments, and they're great when they happen. But as far as being the main character, I give that to Yuna. Tidus is just there to play the part of making a change, and it's a part that I feel that only he can do, given the setup of the game.

As for Tidus dragging his feet around, I think it's more along the lines of not wanting to face his father rather than not wanting to be a guardian. He was all gung-ho for wanting to be a guardian while they were in Kilika after all.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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But he didn't WANT to become Yuna's guardian at that point. He was literally DRAGGED into it.

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Because Tidus is an outsider, he's more open-minded to ideas.


Not to mention Tidus is also kinda BIASED towards Al Bhed when he first arrives, considering they were kinda helping him in the beginning. So when he was told "AL BHED ARE ALL EVIL!!" his first idea is "No they aren't." because Rikku's group was kinda nice.

C-A
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I wouldn't say Rikku's group was nice to him. Let's bear in mind that Rikku kicked him in the balls and kidnapped him about 5 minutes in. Granted she said sorry but he didn't know that.

Plus the rest of them were wholeheartedly aggressive to him, making him do the dangerous work.

Though yes Rikku's kindness to Tidus early on probably did well to show him that "not all al bhed are bad people".

Though you are ignoring the point Cat. First you tried to brush off Jecht selecting Tidus by saying "Pfft he'd go along anyway because of boobs" now you are focusing on whether or not he wanted to become a guardian rather than why Jecht chose Tidus over Jack Anybody.

As Dullahan stated Tidus was already considering becoming a guardian by Kilika, he also could have left the pilgrimage at any time. There's plenty of evidence to say he hated his old man and wanted to punish him (or at least get closure with him) as reasons for continuing on the pilgrimage.

Hell in Dissidia Duodecim it's revealed Tidus was originally on the side of Chaos purely because he lusts for vengeance and hatred at Jecht.

Either propose something different or refute the suggestion because filtering out the important stuff and narrowing in on minor things is getting old.
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he also could have left the pilgrimage at any time


...in a world he knows nothing about, keeps putting his foot in his mouth and overall would have to keep up the lie of Sin's Toxin for a really long before he might remember how to act properly in Spira. I kind of doubt he'd do that... Also possible I'm not being very coherent right now it's past 2 AM...

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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
he also could have left the pilgrimage at any time


...in a world he knows nothing about, keeps putting his foot in his mouth and overall would have to keep up the lie of Sin's Toxin for a really long before he might remember how to act properly in Spira. I kind of doubt he'd do that... Also possible I'm not being very coherent right now it's past 2 AM...

C-A


Yeah...he'd be alone but he found something he knew well. Blitzball he's even a dab hand at it, he could have stayed in Luca and gotten pretty big at it if he'd had to or even taken over the Auroch's once Wakka retired.

Though yeah you are coherent and still ignoring the point :/

Jecht chose Tidus because he needed an outside who would want to fight Sin. Of course many people would be like "What are you crazy?! Fight that thing?! Oh wait you already have a way to deal with it? Alright then." but Tidus hates Jecht enough that he would try and find Jecht enough to get his revenge or at least closure.

That's why Tidus is necessary in FFX. It may be Yuna's story overall but Tidus is definitely an important part of it.
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Nah, I still believe that Tidus was FORCED into having to face his dad at some point and Auron wouldn't have it any other way. Tidus felt that Auron was his only connection to going home so following Auron meant facing his father, which was something he wanted no part of. The way Tidus felt before meeting Auron in Luca discredits, to me, the idea of Tidus not wanting to be a Guardian. He was head over heels for Yuna. Moping because he HAS to go with her? Yeah, I don't believe that. Whether Auron showed up or not, I believe Tidus would have begged the group to let him join. Two reasons the way I see it.

1.) Yuna
2.) He didn't want to abandoned in Luca left alone with strangers.

Granted, some of this is speculation drawn from what I got from the game, but I'm sold on the fact that Tidus wasn't moping because he was forced into guardianship. Too many factors against that as well as plot points.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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I found some very "interesting" pictures when it comes to girls of Final Fantasy.....
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Pierre wrote:
Hell in Dissidia Duodecim it's revealed Tidus was originally on the side of Chaos purely because he lusts for vengeance and hatred at Jecht.

Please don't use Dissidia as reference for anything in the main games, everything in there is retconned at best and non-canon at worst.
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Hell in Dissidia Duodecim it's revealed Tidus was originally on the side of Chaos purely because he lusts for vengeance and hatred at Jecht.

Please don't use Dissidia as reference for anything in the main games, everything in there is retconned at best and non-canon at worst.

Would it be more fitting to say that it's an alternate universe sort of reality rather than a canonical continuation of any game of the franchise. Granted, I haven't played any Dissidia games, but from my understanding, they're just shoehorned plots just made to give a fighting game some kind of story.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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.........What the? I just saw a picture of Shiva, Barbariccia, Rydia, Selphie and some other girl fat..... :beef:
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Hell in Dissidia Duodecim it's revealed Tidus was originally on the side of Chaos purely because he lusts for vengeance and hatred at Jecht.

Please don't use Dissidia as reference for anything in the main games, everything in there is retconned at best and non-canon at worst.


Regardless of whether the plot of the game is canon or not (though I'd like to see whether or not it was announced as non-canon) it's an official portrayal of Tidus' character.
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dullahan1 wrote:
Would it be more fitting to say that it's an alternate universe sort of reality rather than a canonical continuation of any game of the franchise. Granted, I haven't played any Dissidia games, but from my understanding, they're just shoehorned plots just made to give a fighting game some kind of story.


Well it's more like take important main characters from the FF games, remove all potential character development they had and have them fight each other, gaining some character development at the end of their arcs/stories. Like Tina having trouble keeping her Esper form under control, Onion Knight being a cowardly kid. Cloud is, of course, his emo self that doesn't want to encounter Sephy, but Sephy totally stalks him like the rejected lover that he is.

Quote:
Regardless of whether the plot of the game is canon or not (though I'd like to see whether or not it was announced as non-canon) it's an official portrayal of Tidus' character.


An official portrayal that doesn't go into the official source of the character (in this case, X) does not count as canon. It's just called an interpretation by some of the bigger ups of the creation of the character. Doesn't mean it's official for the game he first appeared in.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
Would it be more fitting to say that it's an alternate universe sort of reality rather than a canonical continuation of any game of the franchise. Granted, I haven't played any Dissidia games, but from my understanding, they're just shoehorned plots just made to give a fighting game some kind of story.


Well it's more like take important main characters from the FF games, remove all potential character development they had and have them fight each other, gaining some character development at the end of their arcs/stories. Like Tina having trouble keeping her Esper form under control, Onion Knight being a cowardly kid. Cloud is, of course, his emo self that doesn't want to encounter Sephy, but Sephy totally stalks him like the rejected lover that he is.

Or in Cecil's case, completely screwing over the character in favor of trying to make him a "unique" fighter. I mean, switch back and forth between light and darkness? In FF4, he became paladin to get rid of the darkness inside him. that's not a spoiler anymore

Also, about Tidus in his original game, what would have been different if he was removed from the game entirely? Yuna would still find Jyscal's sphere, try to get Seymour to turn himself in, kill him anyways, be chased by the church, go along with the marriage to try and send Seymour to the Farplane, and stop the endless cycle that is the final summoning. What part of this required Tidus?
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sumguy28 wrote:
In FF4, he became paladin to get rid of the darkness inside him. that's not a spoiler anymore


Hey, I'm not saying anything about that. It's about as much of a spoiler as Tina being an Esper and having an Esper-form, the potential of Celes trying to commit suicide, Aerith dying, Cloud being not really a SOLDIER and other stuff that is so well known, it really shouldn't count as a spoiler anymore.

Quote:
Also, about Tidus in his original game, what would have been different if he was removed from the game entirely? Yuna would still find Jyscal's sphere, try to get Seymour to turn himself in, kill him anyways, be chased by the church, go along with the marriage to try and send Seymour to the Farplane, and stop the endless cycle that is the final summoning. What part of this required Tidus?


I don't know. Apparently Tidus made her think about things from a different point of view. But I disagree. Yuna was always very adamant about sacrificing friends for the benefit of things. She was totally okay with sacrificing herself, she saw that as her duty as a Summoner. But she never was okay with her friends doing something like that, especially not if it was done for her sake. So her being against the Final Summon method in Zanarkand? Never part of Tidus' influence. Don't see why people say that part is somehow due to Tidus being with her.

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Spoiler: FFX
If I recall, wasn't Auron, Braska, and Jecht against the sacrifice as well? And we saw what happened. Seriously, even though I know Yuna would be against it, it would change nothing. Someone, my guess would be either Wakka or Lulu, or surprise Kimahri, would force Yuna to sacrifice themselves for her sake. It would be followed by some big emotional drama, but it would still happen and it would change absolutely nothing.


I'll be bold enough to say this too. If we take Tidus away from the equation, I'm taking Auron away as well. Auron would have no reason to be there if it wasn't for Tidus. If you argue and say he made a promise to Braska to watch Yuna, I'm going to deny that right now. It's not fitting to keep one promise and not keep the other. Not in Auron's character. So if he forgoes bringing Tidus into the mix, then he's not going to go with Yuna either.

As for Tidus's influence, again, I can't state enough that while he's not a huge changer, he's more like a cog on a big machine that gets it working. Being from the outside and questioning why everything is taking place makes the characters think. Everything has been a ritual for 1000 years, they've never questioned why they do it. Yuna admits to this in a couple of scenes. Really, without Tidus, I don't see the characters thinking outside the box to come up with alternatives to beating Sin. They would never have worked with the Al Bhed as it's considered taboo. Again, Auron would have no reason to work with the group as the main reason he went along was because of Tidus.

I think too as far as Yuna handling the plot without Tidus, I'm going to refer to the fact that she values everyone above herself and is not beyond sacrificing herself. That said, everything involving Seymour, I have no doubt that it would be within her character to handle all that mess herself and leave her guardians behind. I can see her going through with the marriage and waiting to get behind closed doors to get Seymour, but I also see Seymour being stronger than that and overpowering Yuna. Need I remind you that to save Yuna, the group had to work with the Al Bhed? I don't see that happening sans Tidus. I really, really don't. The beginning of the game, everyone was close-minded, believing everything that Spira fed them because it worked for 1000 years, why change it? Tidus introduces the idea of change because of his ignorance.

Is it a stupid idea to think that the people of Spira had never considered changing before? Yes. But with the power of the church and the influence they had, it's not out of the realm of possibility, especially considering what happens to the Al Bhed because they don't follow the church. They aren't treated well and seem to lose more to Sin than any other race and with Yevon blaming it on their disloyalty, in instills fear into the other races. They don't want to end up like the Al Bhed, so they follow what they believe works. What Yevon wants them to believe.

So, to a certain point, yes, I believe Tidus's being non-existent would not have changed some aspects of the plot, but as overall whole, I believe his presence changed the outcome tremendously. I kinda see it as a ripple effect. The outcome isn't noticeable at first, but it goes a long way. Yuna finding out about Seymour's murder, yeah, I can see her handling it the same way. But I think she'd go more solo on this. The guardians would insist on going, but she'd be the kind to sneak out as not to burden anyone else with her troubles. Tidus being nosy and getting into other people's business (which is annoying) changes that, as she would have been the only one to have seen Jyscal's sphere.

I used to honestly think Tidus wasn't of much importance either, but playing through the game again recently, it's really changing my mind on how much of a necessity Tidus's character is to the overall plot of FFX. I still consider Yuna as the main character without a doubt, but Tidus does indeed have a role to play. In all honesty, I think the plot would be less affected overall if you took out Wakka, Lulu, or Kimahri. The only ones I see of importance to the overall plot are Tidus, Auron, Rikku, and especially Yuna. I think the other 3 are there just to serve as filling in other character roles and to give exposition.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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If I recall, wasn't Auron, Braska, and Jecht against the sacrifice as well?


Yeah, but they instantly went the idea of "Well, we can't do anything else!" and Braska had the dumb, happy-sunshine-world view of "Maybe this time it'll work... like winning the lottery, maybe Sin won't come back this time". Yeah, great fucking job there, Braska.

Quote:
I can see her going through with the marriage and waiting to get behind closed doors to get Seymour, but I also see Seymour being stronger than that and overpowering Yuna. Need I remind you that to save Yuna, the group had to work with the Al Bhed?


Actually, I'd like to point out, had her companions not been at the wedding, she would've gone through with the Sending? There would have been no dumb blackmail of "If you continue to send me, I'll have your companions killed" so nothing would've stopped her.

Quote:
The beginning of the game, everyone was close-minded


In terms of Al Bhed, I don't think Yuna was very close minded. She's half Al Bhed herself and she was sort of looking for Cid, I doubt she would've disliked or refused to work with Al Bhed in general.

Quote:
I still consider Yuna as the main character without a doubt, but Tidus does indeed have a role to play.


So you're saying he's like Vaan in XII - except Vaan is worse because he really serves no role except be the comic relief after the first two hours or so, when the main role seems more filled with Asche, as it's her story, her revenge and all that?

C-A
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Yeah, Braska didn't do anything, but going off of Yuna's mindset from the beginning of the game, I can't see her deviating off the same thought process Braska had. Like I said though too, they were brought up believing it was the only thing that would work. Yuna thought the same way.

I'd also like to point out that Seymour had many, many guards at the wedding. Sure Yuna's party was a liability, but I doubt Seymour would have let her go through with it with her alone. Not only was he powerful, but he had a whole entourage that could have easily stopped her.

As for the Al-Bhed thing, I have no doubts she would have worked with them. It's her other companions that I think would have had a different mindset. And after what happened in Luca, I doubt she'd be able to convince anyone in her group to work with the Al-Bhed, especially Wakka.

As for the whole Tidus/Vaan comparison, I don't think you're too far off. Vaan was completely useless, but Tidus at least serves some usefulness. He's just overshadowed by Yuna, who I felt would have been in a better position of main character. I just don't think Tidus's presence isn't as useless as others think. That role is reserved for Vaan.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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.................. :beef: I'm still :beef: over the fact of the pics I have seen :larry:
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So running with the assumptions that Tidus isn't there because Jecht brought some other random individual who was not interested in fighting. Auron wasn't involved because his involvement is tied to Tidus being there. Yuna travels with Kimahri, Wakka and Lulu. Whether Rikku was allowed to join or not is up for debate. It's extremely unlikely they'd side with the Al Bhed since they'd previously kidnapped Yuna and Wakka Kimahri and Lulu would not stand for it.

Yuna arrives with Kimahri Lulu and Wakka (and probably Seymour all things considered). Seymour either browbeats Yuna into making him the Fayth seeing as they'd be married or (and this is important) Lulu and Wakka both offer themselves up as Fayth (like happened in the actual timeline).

Tidus doesn't speak up saying they should absolutely not accept this and should talk to Yunalesca (an idea Yuna agrees with which leads to the battle) and Yuna pressured by her friends is forced to accept the outcome much like Braska did beforehand.
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But who's to say Yuna wouldn't have sent Seymour by then? Fuck being married, he isn't keeping up his end of the bargain, she can send his ass to the Farplane by that point. It's not like they're always surrounded by all of the Bevelle army at that point.

And seriously, NOBODY seems to remember that Yuna DOESN'T and HATES sacrificing OTHERS for the good cause? Why do people act like she would totally succumb to the ideal without Tidus? What, she would've just spit in her own morals/values/whatever?

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Pierre wrote:
Auron wasn't involved because his involvement is tied to Tidus being there.

Even if Auron didn't make a promise to Jecht, he has still seen the corruption and lost two friends to the final summoning process. I'm pretty sure he would still follow Yuna's party and lead her to making the right decision and ending the cycle.
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CatMuto wrote:
But who's to say Yuna wouldn't have sent Seymour by then? Fuck being married, he isn't keeping up his end of the bargain, she can send his ass to the Farplane by that point. It's not like they're always surrounded by all of the Bevelle army at that point.

And seriously, NOBODY seems to remember that Yuna DOESN'T and HATES sacrificing OTHERS for the good cause? Why do people act like she would totally succumb to the ideal without Tidus? What, she would've just spit in her own morals/values/whatever?

C-A


Did...did you not listen? I thought Dullahan made it clear.

Seymour has guards...a whole army of people who know his true nature and don't care. She is not going to get the chance to send him, this is assuming that Seymour himself doesn't stop her.

Also no hero likes sacrificing others but no one can deny that's how it's always been in Spira, her own father went down that route, Guardians are there to lay down their life for Yuna.

If Yuna had had a traditional pilgrimage Tidus wouldn't have been there, she'd likely have married Seymour and went ahead with him to make the Final Aeon with him as she thought she could use the marriage to control Seymour. Of course since Seymour's ultimate goal is to become Sin all he has to do is promise to behave for the duration of the pilgrimage and not let on about the Sin thing and he's won. Yuna might even be happy to turn Seymour into a fayth knowing that it'll remove his evil from Spira.

Yuna may be more of a free spirit than most but she's still raised in a society that's told there's only one way to beat Sin and that sacrifice is necessary for it to occur. It'd be a terribly sad ending but I still think she'd bow to Wakka and Lulu's arguments. Kimahri doesn't have a personality other than "Protect Yuna" so he might offer as well.

Quote:
Even if Auron didn't make a promise to Jecht, he has still seen the corruption and lost two friends to the final summoning process. I'm pretty sure he would still follow Yuna's party and lead her to making the right decision and ending the cycle.


Except, he doesn't say anything to sway her judgement anyway even when it comes down to the final moments. When Yunalesca says "Make your choice" Wakka and Lulu just line up as sacrifices and Auron says nothing throughout. He respects Yuna's right to choose, it takes an unrespectful character like Tidus who speaks up against it.

Besides Auron agreed to bring Tidus to the world and take Yuna to Besaid, nothing about watching over her that I can recall.
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Seymour has guards...a whole army of people who know his true nature and don't care. She is not going to get the chance to send him, this is assuming that Seymour himself doesn't stop her.


...the guardians kill his guards while she dance-sends him. Durr. Problem solved. Plus, after the Macalania Temple, Seymour is still walking around alone a lot. Not always, but often. Plenty of opportunity to send him.

Quote:
Yuna may be more of a free spirit than most but she's still raised in a society that's told there's only one way to beat Sin and that sacrifice is necessary for it to occur.


Yes, but that sacrifice, to her and the whole world, has always been "the Summoner dies" nothing there said a single thing about the guardian. Sure, the guardians may die during the pilgrimage, but nothing that their death was necessary to defeat Sin. And you saw how devastated she was when she found out about Meister Mika and her turmoil when she heard the Truth about the Final Aeon.

Yes, she was taught that her sacrifice is necessary to defeat Sin. Nothing taught her, until the end, that someone else's sacrifice was necessary. It shakes her entire view on how things worked in her world. Who's to say that she would have gone through with it? She wanted to ask Yunalesca something - that had nothing to do with Tidus - and when she found out the answer is "Sin can't be defeated, even if you use all your guardians as the Final Aeon" she decided to do something about it. She had already refused to do so, because she thought, "Well if my sacrifice and somebody else's really is necessary to defeat Sin forever, I might go for it... if it would be a pointless sacrifice of them... I won't."
Again, this had nothing to do with Tidus.

They didn't have a plan how to defeat Sin after defeating Yunalesca, I will not deny that. But rising against Yunalesca was not because of Tidus. It was because of the truth they found out and Yuna decided to not go through with it, and what Yuna says, goes.

C-A
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