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Thoughts on treatment of Adrian (CASE 4 SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Throughout case 4, it seemed to be just this one big thing against Adrian. I know my heart went out to her and I just was getting so pissed that everyone was just treated her so badly.

Especially Edgeworth. Him saying about not caring whether or not she was going to kill herself just really stung my heart. And just how he basically forced her and put things out in the open and everything.

Personally, I think it was a poor thing to show a person with a personality disorder just getting all this stuff tagged onto them, I'm sure they meant to make it where your heart goes out to her and you actually feel as though you are Phoenix, feeling the stress and pressure of having to save Maya, save Adrian and getting Matt guilty. The case to myself was intense, and all.

But back to Adrian. Don't you feel as though she was just abused way too much in the case? This can't be only me who is a bit angry about her treatment.
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You pretty much hit it on the head: Adrian is Jones the Cat. Both a plot device for Phoenix's triumph as well as a sympathetic character we, the players, can attach ourselves to (as many a Fradrian fan might attest?). If Adrian weren't a sympathetic character, I doubt there would be as much motivation to save her innocent hide (only thing better than saving innocent women is saving attractive innocent women).

In the end, I think it's for the better - the "brutality" of her revelation actually makes me like Edgeworth's no-shit attitude more, and it also frees up Adrian from the lingering black cloud hanging over her since Celeste was manipulated and driven to suicide.

Spoiler:
You get to see her thriving in GS3. I think that's vindication enough.


Rainbows come after rain...
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She would've remained the way she was if that secret of hers was still as secret. Regardless of any seemingly well-intentioned agenda of hers, she still managed to get her hands dirty by framing Matt. Even if she was right on her hunch, she had no concrete evidence that he himself did the deed.

She deserves to take responsibility for what she did. It can't be helped that her co-dependency was revealed in court, it was a part of her motive after all.

Edgeworth's comment was rather brutal, but that's just his professionalism talking. It's his and Phoenix's job to get the truth out so the judge can make a fair decision. And let's face it, truth hurts.

If Adrian managed to succeed in getting Matt a guilty sentence as she walks off free, she'll have to live with the knowledge that using underhanded tactics to reach her goals [and getting away with it] would make her no better than Matt and Juan. We all know how she hates being associated with them in any manner.

The one thing that really saved her in the end was going to jail to make up for what she did. And hell, she admits it.
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Edgeworth is at his most brutal when he feels the most personal about what he's saying. I thought it was a brilliant moment, myself, and spoke a lot about what he's willing to do to make sure people don't make the same mistakes he did.
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I thought that it fit well. I agree with what everyone's said so far. It was actually a good thing for Adrian to get those personal problems out in the open and to deal with them. She just kept her emotions bottled up for so long, that sooner or later it would've ended badly for her. And Edgeworth knew what he was doing, though it may seem hard but it was good for her to realize her mistakes and problems in the end.
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I love your eyebrows Sir VK <3

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I couldn't help but feel horrible throughout the case though. I guess the fact is I put myself right in her position.

Capcom did well to stir up emotions, at least in me. It hooked my attention.
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MoronSonOfBoron wrote:
You pretty much hit it on the head: Adrian is Jones the Cat. Both a plot device for Phoenix's triumph as well as a sympathetic character we, the players, can attach ourselves to (as many a Fradrian fan might attest?). If Adrian weren't a sympathetic character, I doubt there would be as much motivation to save her innocent hide (only thing better than saving innocent women is saving attractive innocent women).

In the end, I think it's for the better - the "brutality" of her revelation actually makes me like Edgeworth's no-shit attitude more, and it also frees up Adrian from the lingering black cloud hanging over her since Celeste was manipulated and driven to suicide.

Spoiler:
You get to see her thriving in GS3. I think that's vindication enough.


Rainbows come after rain...

Yeah, MSOB pretty much explained it for me, so I have to agree with him 100%.

Honestly, despite the fact I hated they way she got treat by everyone (which I know from similar personal experience :sadshoe: ). However, I feel that without going after Adrian like they did, the 4th case would have ended up being a terrible case compared to what it is now. Plus, if we didn't get deep down inside of Adrian's mind and personality, we would have never been able to finish the case the way we did.

Spoiler: GS3
She really does pick up her personality in GS3 but she doesn't change enough to not be the same Adrian we all have come to love during the 4th case. You can still traces of her co-depencey
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Even though I love Adrian as a character, I was pretty annoyed by the fact that she so stubbornly refused to testify, just because of what she was fed by Franziska. I was actually pretty glad that Edgeworth was able to force the truth from her, and in such a badass way.
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I think this case was supposed to have that reflection about it. You were supposed to feel for Adrian, which just made you more determine to unravel the truth.
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Well, I genunenily((sp)) believed that Adrian was guilty untill the confession. Then I was like D:<
And I started to like Adrian. I am a massive fan of her, after all.
But yeah, you're right, it was kinda mean, but I guess they meant for it to be.
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i thought when edgeworth told her he didnt care if she chose death so long as she testified first i thought that was major harsh felt very sorry for adrain
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I feel bad for Adrian. She was just another victim in the entire affair, really. She was just minding her own business when this opportunity came up to get some revenge on the surviving cause of her suffering. I'm sure she had to have felt no small measure of hatred, even fear of Phoenix at first, what with him trying to pin the murder on her. (And not knowing about the situation with Maya.)

Edgeworth's callousness about her secret was... harsh. First time I played it and he delivered that hammerblow about not caring if she killed herself left me gawking at my DS for a full minute before I could continue. It was harsh, but it was necessary, and it was ultimately for her own good. He probably saved her life with that threat; if she had stayed silent, she would have been pegged as the real killer. I still wanted to smack him for being a dick at the time though!

They really did a good job of making her a vulnerable, sympathetic character. If they hadn't, the player wouldn't have any compelling reason not to pin it on her to save Maya. In a way, Adrian is probably one of the most sympathetic characters in that entire case. You learn that your client is an evil prick, you learn that the victim wasn't much better, then there's this friggin' assassin guy... They did a good job tying everything together in a way to leave the player just as torn about what to do as poor Nick! :D
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I felt soo bad for Adrain, especailly when she became so vulnrable, and everyone was picking on her.
When i played the second time round i felt so bad when it came up to the bit where phoenix had pick on her, i felt so bad, like i was really picking on someone. :sadshoe:
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In all honesty I think Edgey's comment was right where it should be. Now don't get me wrong, I think Adrian is a wonderful character, it's just that sometimes in that mindset, the person needs a good slap in the face moment so to speak to pull them out of it.
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I heartily agree - Adrian was a brilliantly flawed and tragic character throughout the whole of Case 4, and everything that was being pinned on her for the whole duration was, well, enough to tug on the heartstrings of this Fan right here.

The moment she talks about everything in depth...Celeste, Matt, Juan, the Suicide note and her own grief, misery and overwhelming hatred of the one Matt Engarde...played right alongside with the Steel Samurai Ballad made it all the more, well, compelling and saddening to have to think about.

Seriously, I coulda shed a tear or two at that moment...her overwhelming despair of the loss of the one that she looked up to, and at the continued survival of the person who had singlehandedly ruined everything for her at that point made me sympathise with her completely.

Case 4 was just a horrible experiance, both as a player and as a human being, because the thought of somebody EVER being put through that and being so totally lost as Adrian seemed to be, all alone in the detention centre - it's enough t'make you sick when you think about the person who had shoved this whole ghastly affair in her direction.

As much as I adore Matt Engarde, there's no way I'd ever say his actions were justified - he acted selfishly, setting in motion some of the most horrendous actions to sate his own need to be in the spotlight and ahead of his most bitter rival.

Damn, the last day of 'Farewell my Turnabout' is just about one of the most emotionally exhausting parts of any video game I'd played ever...at least, right up until Trials and Tribulations, where Cases 4 and 5 blew my head wide apart. >>;;;

So yeah - I completely agree about the unfairness of the treatment given to her by both Matt and Juan - As she puts it ' What a pair of Hideous monsters!'
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Was I the only one kind of irritated by Adrian in the fourth case? But then again I didn't really enjoy playing that case at ALL, so I was trying to rush through it XD I love her as a character now, but at the time I really didn't care if she admitted her guilt or not. I just wanted that case over and done with.
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I spoiled myself while playing the case, so I knew that she wasn't guilty from the start.

I do feel really bad for her, and every time I replay the game I feel bad for her, especially when Edgeworth pounds on her like that. The best line from her is right before the last day of the trial, when she asks Phoenix if he will still defend Matt, and she tells him that being a lawyer is a "hideous profession."
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Let's not forget that Edgeworth himself had been at the wrong end of a controlling relationship for FIFTEEN YEARS. And he'd come out the other end due to Phoenix effectively making him confront his past head-on - in court.

In 2-4 he'd just come back from dealing with the fall-out of that and had presumably at least considered suicide at one point given the note he left.

So he's hardly just being a git - he knows exactly what path she's on and where she might end up if she doesn't face her demons.
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unless adrian faced her co-dependancy problem, she would have had to live with it forever. in the end, it was best that he had to go through with it
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I think out of all the cases I've played so far, Adrian's the most sympathetic character for me. I felt really bad for her once I found out the whole story with Celeste killing herself, and then I felt truly horrible when Nick was accusing her even though he knew she was innocent. Having played T&T before JFA, I'm glad to see that she's happy in the end. I think even Franziska felt bad for her, which was why she sent her that letter.
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I thought Adrian was the Quistis Trepe of GS, that said, a strong character with no nonsense of an aditude, but then when I found out the whole back story with Celeste I felt bad that she had to go through with it and after her attempted suicide that she had to put on a face for the rest of the world

and while I thought that Edgeworth being a prude to her was mandatory to pry the truth from her, that didn't keep me from going ZOMGWTFBBQHAX :ack: at the screen when he announced he didn't care if she died
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I found Adrian pretty cool at first- The cold, stern, " I don't give a damn about anybody or anything except my job." persona. (Dammit, another character from 2-4 that reminds me of one of my OCs! D:) But then, as the plot thickened, I couldn't help but feel bad. I loved what Edgeworth said to her, though- I didn't think of it as him being a total jerk, but rather, "Wow, I wonder if he thought like that about himself once upon a time." It was a really deep speech, and it made me love his character all the more. But hey, this isn't about Edgy.

Oh, one more thing: I really loved her hair.
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I thought it was pretty cruel that by the end she's pretty much forgotten about. What I mean is you're given the choice of whether to plead Guilty or Not Guilty. If you plead Not Guilty, Adrian would have been found Guilty. I thought this was a terrible idea since there's nothing to suggest Matt was gonna confess. I just thought it was pretty awful that they portrayed Engarde being executed or Adrian being executed as being a "win-win situation".
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I rather thought the whole GUILTY or NOT GUILTY thing was more of a Lose/Lose for Phoenix, to be honest.
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Well, Edgeworth was cold to her in the courtroom. Such is life. If you want to kill yourself, many people will just say "Okay" and let you do it. No one will stop you if you have your heart set on it. Edgey didn't want to deal with all the emo crap. He wanted answers, and he wanted them NOW.

Adrian was too clingy. I know, I'm exactly like her. Or at least, I used to be.
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I agree with what people were saying about Edgeworth. And what made it worse was that Adrian was being manipulated by another Von Karma. If I recall correctly, at the clinic when Edgeworth visited Franziska, he mentioned he had to "clean up her mess." He probably had the hunch that he knew what Franziska told Adrian to do, as he knew what kind of tactics Von Karma was prone to use in court. He must've sympathized with Adrian a lot for that, being manipulated by Von Karma himself, and had to force her to face reality in the only way she could understand with her co-dependency. It looks harsh to most people, but sometimes tough love needs to be exercised to save someone in the long run. Adrian DID thank both him and Phoenix in the end, so I think she realized that too.
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I started feeling really bad for Adrian half way through the case. I can sort of identify with her and couldn't bring myself to push for a not guilty verdict cos she looked so saaaaad ;_;

I agree though that Edgeworth did what he had to, and she knew this because she thanked Phoenix AND him at the end. Poor girl! I was determined to get Matt sent down though, because, well, he was an arse! I've not hated anyone in a game that much for a while.
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I think I would feel more sorry for her if she hadn't planted the evidence incriminating Matt ( the knife and the button) and had left the card in Juan's room. Even if Matt deserved to be found guilty (which he does).

Also, I thought she should have been a bit stronger and not let herself be bullied by Fran into silence so easily (even though she has co-dependancy issues).

So I think that Edgeworth's treatment of her, although it was pretty harsh, was fair and justified.
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When edgworth said i don't care if you chose death it shocked me quite a bit I had no idea that he was going to take that direction it was harsh. which remind me of a phrase.
"in order to see the light we must treak down the dark path and adrian did so and she happy
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Until the whole "Matt taking the glass of gravy out of nowhere" thing, I was sure that Adrian was the killer. The Magatama thing and the fact that the defendants are never guilty supported me. But after the first day of court, I started to feel for Adrian. She became likable (I have to say that her additude pre-finding out co-dependancy was annoying), and I chose Guity at the end because I thought that there should be justice for all. However, she hid a lot of important info, and Edgy had to batter her a little bit to find out the truth. Do I love Adrian as a character? Yes. Did Edgy do what he needed to? Yes as well.
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Yeah, that's probably why I always feel a sort of sadistic, upsetting feeling when I think about that case.
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I sympathised with Adrian, it really was horrible what she was put through at the trial. But, in my opinion... Adrian was kind of pathetic, at the trial. Especially after the entire show she gave beforehand - she seemed like she wasn't gonna take any crap from anybody. But then she was just... pathetic. It might just be the kind of person I am, but people who depend on others THAT MUCH really just need to get a slap on the face, and get told to pull themselves together. Which is what happened in the trial. So it's all good, in the end.
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It was a sadistic trick the game forces you to, essentially, frame an innocent and pathetic woman.
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It actually felt quite OOC for post-Heel-Face-Turn Edgeworth.

Yeah, real smart there -- push the proven-suicidal witness over the edge and risk yet another Terry Fawles incident.

At least in later games, he learned to balance truth out with justice and tact.
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Adrian Andrews is close to being my favorite character in the series. I felt sorry for her because of how much they used her in the trial but I think almost everything about her was handled top-notch.
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Edgeworth was an asshole to her, I agree. But my personal interpretation is that he wanted to give her a "wake up" slap. It was brutal, and I don't know if I could do this to someone myself, but sometimes you need to do this kind of thing to make a person face reality. She was trying to hide, escape from her issues etc, but he managed to make her expose the truth - which was good for the case, and good for her mental health on the long run. I don't think he had bad intentions at all.

I didn't like how he addressed her when he found out that she had DeKiller's card, though. I love his character, but if somebody treated a person like this in front of me IRL, I would call them out. I really dislike this kind of unnecessary harshness directed towards someone who is already on a fragile emotional state. It is cruel as fuck.
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Edgeworth was definitely harsh to Adrian. And I realize it's an old topic, but I find it interesting how many say they disliked Edgeworth telling Adrian he didn't care if she killed herself.

I'd like to argue he never said that.

Spoiler:
The original quote was this-
Quote:
Edgeworth: If you're going to say you would "choose death," that is of no concern to me.


Yes, at first glance, that looks like he's saying he doesn't care if she kills herself. And even Gumshoe is the first to point this out to us. But have you ever thought about the phrasing Edgeworth uses here? He doesn't flat-out use the words if you're going to "choose death," instead he goes If you're going to say you would "choose death." The if phrase makes a difference, and indicates he doesn't at all intend for her to carry out her threat. Adrian making a threat is what "is of no concern to" Edgeworth, not her committing suicide. Basically, the threat won't keep him from getting the to the truth.

Also... "choose death"? Where have we heard that before? Oh, that's right. "Prosecutor Miles Edgeworth chooses death." He totally gets it. He knows she's in an awful place (even though some of it she did to herself), because he's been in a similar situation before.

And then he follows that line with this-
Quote:
Edgeworth: However, before you die... I will pull the truth from your breathing lips! ... No matter what I have to do.


I found this interesting as well. He doesn't just say I will pull the truth from your lips, but rather breathing lips. You could say he's just being dramatic because lol garden of judgment, but I think it's more proof he doesn't want her to die, and not just for the reason that the truth will die with her. To describe a person with an adjective that, well, indicates life... I would argue that it was Edgeworth's way of encouraging Adrian to stay alive. Even if he was a dramatic prick about it.

Of course, I'm just going by the English version. For all I know, he really might be saying 100% "I don't care if you kill yourself" in the original Japanese version.


I won't argue Edgeworth has a hard time being gentle though. He probably shouldn't have screamed at Adrian about her taking the card, but at the same time, he knows she didn't do it on purpose.

I would love to have been a fly on the wall during any conversation they may have had outside of court, though. I feel like I missed out on something in between "TELL THE GODDAMN TRUTH ADRIAN" and "I owe my thanks to Mr. Wright and Mr. Edgeworth!"

I may be in the minority, but I think what Phoenix did to Adrian was worse. Yet fewer people got on his case for trying to get an innocent woman charged with murder. Yes, we know his reasons, and Shelly had him by the balls, but Adrian being convicted was a very real possibility. Fortunately, the miracle didn't have to never happen. Or something.
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Re: Thoughts on treatment of Adrian (CASE 4 SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Everything about Phoenix pissed me off during this case. His self-righteousness and naivety. The way he said "I'm not like you" to Edgeworth. Something about this annoyed me. His innocence and lack of awareness could have put an innocent woman on death row, and saved the butt of a sociopath. All because he "believes in his clients' innocence from the bottom of his heart". How beautiful.

He was too quick to assume Adrian was guilty, even under those circumstances. I would say he had reasons to suspect her, but no reasons to throw away the possibility of Engarde being guilty at that point. Engarde's behavior was suspicious from the very beginning, and his rivalry with Juan was enough to give him a very solid motivation, regardless of him winning popularity polls or anything like that.

So yeah, I agree that what he did to Adrian was worse than what Edgeworth did. But at least this case made him grow as a lawyer. It also made me realise that I could never be a criminal defense attorney. Somehow, the idea of a lawyer twisting facts and desesperately defending a guilty person repulses me more than the idea of a prosecutor accusing an innocent person.
Re: Thoughts on treatment of Adrian (CASE 4 SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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The lack of psyche locks was what initially fooled him,I thought?
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Re: Thoughts on treatment of Adrian (CASE 4 SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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He probably would have taken the case without the magatama anyways. "Standing up for those that don't have anyone on their side" is his moral philosophy since the Classroom Trial and a big part of the reason he became an attorney in the first place. Mia also used to tell him that "we never really know if our clients are guilty or innocent, all we can do is believe if them." Heck, the entire premise of the series is that Phoenix takes on unwinnable cases that nobody else would take because there's a huge amount of decisive evidence against the defendant (or at least what these games take as decisive evidence). The whole first game revolves around that, with Phoenix defending total strangers and going as far as to defend Edgeworth when everyone, including Edgey himself, think he's guilty.

Trusting people is a pretty relevant part of his character, so it doesn't really bother me that he trusted Engarde at first, since the only suspicious thing about the whole thing at the time was that the kidnapper wanted him off the hook.

And something similar goes for Edgeworth: yeah, saying that was a dick move to Adrian, but Edgeworth has never really been a nice or sensitive dude, and he actually believes that hiding the truth only makes things worse (he knows from personal experience) so it feels in character for him.
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