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Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title
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hbdragon88 wrote:
Maybe that's true, WA, but this is Phoenix Wright and we come to expect very clean motives for murder, and if they're not clean and neat at all, to have a great and grand justification for why it was done.
Spoiler: All cases in the PW series
3-5 was self-defense, but it was because he was trying to protect Maya.

1-3 was self-defense, but the whole plot of drugging Powers and stealing his suit and then throwing Cody in there as a lying witness made 1-3 awesome.


That's about all I can think of in self-defense cases; I think every other muder has a very strong motive.


I don't "expect" a clear motive. I just want something fresh and interesting. Acro was a perfect sympathetic villain because we all do stupid things sometimes. I don't want every case to be cut-and-dry, "this is why this guy is bad and this is why you should care". I'm sick of these cookie-cutter good vs evil showdowns. Real life just isn't like that. :yuusaku: If all the JFA cases were as polarizing like 2-4, it would make 2-4 much less unique (and Edgeworth's "find out what it means to be a defense attorney" crap almost ruined 2-4 for me. Almost.) We don't need the game to spell out everything for us, and I certainly don't want them to.

hbdragon88 wrote:
And if 2-3 was all about being more realistic, they certainly shot themselves in the foot with the insane cloak-bust theory that makes 3-5 look about as realistic as 1-1.


I said Acro was a believable character, I didn't say the case was realistic. I don't want a 6-month law simulation. I just want sympathetic characters. The circus felt like a real, dysfunctional family. That's why I loved it. The characters in 2-3 and 2-4 carried those cases because they were so multi-dimensional. For the opposite, let's use 1-1 as an example. The murderer in that case killed someone because they walked on him while he was burglarizing her apartment. That's realistic; it happens all the time. But Frank Sahwit is the most inanely bland character to have ever drawn breath, which pretty much killed the case. When it comes right down to it, the majority of the cases are carried by the characters.
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hbdragon88 wrote:
Maybe that's true, WA, but this is Phoenix Wright and we come to expect very clean motives for murder, and if they're not clean and neat at all, to have a great and grand justification for why it was done.
Spoiler: All cases in the PW series
3-5 was self-defense, but it was because he was trying to protect Maya.

1-3 was self-defense, but the whole plot of drugging Powers and stealing his suit and then throwing Cody in there as a lying witness made 1-3 awesome.


That's about all I can think of in self-defense cases; I think every other muder has a very strong motive.

And if 2-3 was all about being more realistic, they certainly shot themselves in the foot with the insane cloak-bust theory that makes 3-5 look about as realistic as 1-1.


But 1-1 is probably the most realistic case in the AA universe. There are plenty of stories about burgulars who turn into murders.
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Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title

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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
hbdragon88 wrote:
And if 2-3 was all about being more realistic, they certainly shot themselves in the foot with the insane cloak-bust theory that makes 3-5 look about as realistic as 1-1.


But 1-1 is probably the most realistic case in the AA universe. There are plenty of stories about burgulars who turn into murders.


You're missing the point. I agree that 1-1 is very realistic. I was saying that the cloak-bust theory in 2-3 made 3-5, far and away really unrealistic, look as realistic as 1-1.
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hbdragon88 wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
hbdragon88 wrote:
And if 2-3 was all about being more realistic, they certainly shot themselves in the foot with the insane cloak-bust theory that makes 3-5 look about as realistic as 1-1.


But 1-1 is probably the most realistic case in the AA universe. There are plenty of stories about burgulars who turn into murders.


You're missing the point. I agree that 1-1 is very realistic. I was saying that the cloak-bust theory in 2-3 made 3-5, far and away really unrealistic, look as realistic as 1-1.


Very true. While I can't ignore the possibility of that happening, it's very unlikely.
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Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title

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Regina and Acro were the Only characters not a TOTAL PAIN to deal with... other than that it kicked 23 different types of ass.
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Regina is one of my favourite minor characters, but I seem to be the only one who likes her :C Why so much hate?
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Panicakes wrote:
Regina is one of my favourite minor characters, but I seem to be the only one who likes her :C Why so much hate?


I really don't know....

Then again, I'm totally indiferrent with her, because she was raised on fantasy and non real things. Therefore, she knows no better.
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I know this topic is like 2 weeks old, but I had to step in...How could you not like Trilo? ;) I loved him, he was so funny! I bursted out laughing when he called Phoenix : "Mr ambulance chaser" lol !!
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it is a very good case i think only problem is when u cross examine trilo and ben you dnt really learn anything new and also the logic of the whole thing was very farfetched i mean the clock just happned to snago n the bust lol. It is still a gr8 case thought
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I hated Ben. I hated Trilo. I hated Regina. I hated the plot.

I liked Moe, and to a certain extent Acro, but I found the end of 2-3 to be kind of anti-climactic, and the whole outcome to the murder
Spoiler: 2-3 spoiler
was a little... I dunno, too much of a stretch (with the cape and hat thing).
I guess 2-2 just overshadowed it in my eyes.

Spoiler: GS4 spoilers
Kristoph laughs at Max's bottle skillz~
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Sorry, Case 2-3 just didn't work for me. The characters either didn't stand out or I hated, with the exception of Trilo-less Ben. The motive was ok, but that's all I liked about it to be honest.
Spoiler: 2-3
And the cloak snagging on the bust... it sort of failed.

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sanareth wrote:
Spoiler: 2-3
And the cloak snagging on the bust... it sort of failed.


That part was a bit too coincidental for my liking as well.
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Currently, my PW cases stand like this:

Bridge to the Turnabout
Farewell, My Turnabout
Turnabout Goodbyes (and DL-6)
Turnabout Beginnings
Rise from the Ashes (And SL-9)
The Stolen Turnabout
Reunion, and Turnabout
Turnabout Memories
Turnabout Samurai
Turnabout Sisters
The First Turnabout
Recipe for Turnabout
The Lost Turnabout
Turnabout Big Top

That's how much I hated case 2-3.
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Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title

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Just replayed the case, and it's not as bad as I thought. The dialogue is impeccably written, and the characters are deeper than they look.
I also changed my mind about Acro. I'm not so sure he qualifies as a "sympathetic" villain anymore. After all, he did plan to kill an innocent sixteen year old girl. And it's not like he did it "in a fit of anger". It was a carefully crafted murder plot. He didn't seem to show any remorse for wanting to kill Regina - he only felt guilty because he killed the Ringmaster instead. He also didn't have any problems with framing a colleague for the murder, and lied several times on the witness stand. If he was really sorry for what happened, he could have just confessed. But it's obvious he didn't want to get caught - he thought he could get away with everything.
So why do we like Acro? Because he looks nice, he seems like a nice person... but he didn't actually do anything to deserve being considered nice. If you only look at his actions, he's really more of a manipulative bastard. So what if he has a tragic backstory? What if he's in a wheelchair? Dahlia didn't have a happy childhood either.
Maybe Acro had everyone fooled, including the player. JFA's main message is that appearances can be deceiving (Ini, Engarde, Adrian, De Killer...). Acro used everyone's emotions to blind them from the truth. Using a wheelchair and crocodile tears, he tricked everyone into believing he was a victim in that case. His movations were purely selfish - all he wanted to do was to avoid spending his life in prison. And his plan apparently succeeded, as Edgeworth told Gumshoe not to be "too harsh on Acro". The difference between Engarde and Acro doesn't have anything to do with their motives. The difference is that Engarde was so proud of his own evilness that it was easier to see through him.
If you try replaying the case with that in mind, you'll see that, while it is probable that Acro was in fact intended as a "sympathetic villain", my explanation also works, which leaves room for doubt. Was it that they failed to make him sympathetic for lack or a proper motive, or that they succeeded at making him ambiguous and interesting?
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I hated it my first playthrough. It was good when I played it for the second and third time though.

The ending almost made me cry. ;_;
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I like it. It's nothing to compare to... 1-4 or 3-5, even 1-3. I wouldn't call it realistic though, the cloak attaching to the bust was a bit pathetic, and the contradictions were hard to see because they were too obvious... Also the characters, the only unlikable characters there (to me anyway) were Regina and Ben/Trilo.
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
sanareth wrote:
Spoiler: 2-3
And the cloak snagging on the bust... it sort of failed.


That part was a bit too coincidental for my liking as well.


I agree completely.


Also, the very very very end ruined it for me.
Spoiler: 2-3
It's when Phoenix tells Regina that Acro won't go after her because Bat isn't dead, only in a coma. But Bat's been in a coma the entire time!
That kinda made the motive fall apart for me, which in turn caused the entirety of the story to fall apart.

Everything else was fine, tho. (Except Congratulations Everybody, Again! That is the worst piece of music in all of the PW games!)
Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title

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Bad Player :

Argh. I can't stand this piece of music.

About the motive falling part, once again, I think my explanation makes it more acceptable.
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YES IT WAS. WHAT ABOUT MAX? HE WAS THE WHOLE CASE. HIS HOTNESS COMBINED WITH HIS FABULOSITY MADE THE CASE HOT AND FABULOUS. AMIRITE?
Sad to say, I've left C-R. I may still occasionally come on, but, y'know...
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Ping' wrote:
About the motive falling part, once again, I think my explanation makes it more acceptable.

Eh, I don't really think so. It wasn't the motive per se, but the motive combined with the fact that in the end they say his motive will make sure he doesn't attempt murder again =\
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...R-really...???

No one has ever agreed with me on that!

Moe is hilarious, his song is catchy, and his animations were some of the most emotion-revealing of the whole series.

Great plot for a murder case, even if it didn't work out.

I really don't understand why people hate this case so much.
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FaFniR wrote:

Spoiler: GS4 spoilers
Kristoph laughs at Max's bottle skillz~


Spoiler: AJ
I lol'd. Krissy didn't even break the bottle, did he? Thems SKILLS right thar.


I do my best to find something positive in every case, so perhaps I'm being a bit too kind, but I really liked 2-3. I thought the characters were interesting enough, despite their irritating quirks. I think Regina's too cute to hate, even though I sometimes want to kick her in the face. :D
Spoiler: 2-3 I guess
But I agree that Acro's motives were a little... iffy. He's quite an ass. Regina needs a serious reality check, but she doesn't deserve to die. No one told Bat to stick his freaking head in a lion's mouth. Even if Leon IS tamed, I think that only the tamer herself should handle him.


Also, MAX. So fabulous! The fact that he calls Phoenix "sweetie" is an automatic win.
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Thanks Vickinator for the Sexy Avi ;D

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FINALLY, some love for this case!! It needs moar of that. I loved every bit about this case. It was my favourite in the whole game. And not just because of Max, what gave you that idea?. The music was some of the best in the game, and cross examining Moe was a tad frustrating, but he was still funny. And I loved the circus characters, oh, and the fact that there was a
Spoiler: 2-3...
real killer who seemed to show quite a bit of remorse.


But anyway, I just loved this case to bits~!

Panicakes wrote:
Regina is one of my favourite minor characters, but I seem to be the only one who likes her :C Why so much hate?

Because she stole Max from me. It was just her personality. I mean, she's cute and all, but her attitude is seriously annoying. Not to mention that every grown man for miles is attracted to her, but she's so goddamn oblivious. D:.

Phantom Dream wrote:
YES IT WAS. WHAT ABOUT MAX? HE WAS THE WHOLE CASE. HIS HOTNESS COMBINED WITH HIS FABULOSITY MADE THE CASE HOT AND FABULOUS. AMIRITE?


SECONDED! URRITE. Seriously, even if he wasn't so super hot, I'd still think he was probably one of the best defendants out there, because he just seemed to be pretty positive and easy to work with all the time... even if he was arrogant. I hate the defendants who refuse to cooporate >_>.
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It was one of my least favourite cases, but it's freakin' awsome!

But why does everyone hate Ben? He's the best character EVAH!
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Here's my biggest problem with Big Top.


Spoiler:
The very IDEA that somebody can mistake Max for his statue. What the hell, come ON.


It'd be a better case if not for that.
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BBdoubleB wrote:
Here's my biggest problem with Big Top.


Spoiler:
The very IDEA that somebody can mistake Max for his statue. What the hell, come ON.


It'd be a better case if not for that.


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I hated it on my first playtrough, didn't care my second and my third i absolutely loved it. I realised what an awesome character Max was. (He looked a bit to gay though) but I loved his personlaity. I also hated Moe first but during my third playtrough i opened my eyes for him and realised how aweome he is. I love bad jokes and I also loves his serious side. The only character i didn't like to much was Ben & Trilo. They felt like they was just because Capcom needed a wtiness at the lodging house. I loved Regina to.
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Bearing in mind that JFA was the first game I played out of the trilogy I was a tiiiny bit dissapointed at first after the epic-ness of 2-2, however, after a while I started to realise how brilliant this cases actually is-

For a start Moe was completely not annoying. I think he was hilarious tbh, his jokes were pretty lame but that just made him funnier. Also, I think that alot of people fail to see past who he was as a charecter when you got past all those jokes, he really cared about alot of people at that circus and was clearly very good friends with the ringmaster, he gave us a lot of helpful insight into the relationships between the other charecters (E.g. Regina and Acro). He also told us about Bat and and the accident. My point is Moe was brilliant...I bet it's been done but if I could I'd probably start off a fan club for him!

Secondly, I liked how we slowly got to unravel what had happened "6 months ago", I found it a very interesting experience and this case was full of interesting charecters who were deeper and more developed than some from other cases (Except for that awful Ben the pervert, yuck!)
Sorry to all the people who liked Ben but seriously, he's 30, Regina's 16!!

Other good charecters were Moe, Max, Regina, Acro (though he was possibly the most irritating person EVER to cross-examine), and it has one other HUGELY redeeming quality in that the Edgeworth cutscene thingy was shown at the end! He looks pretty good in that picture and it even shows us he's not actually dead at all (even though we all knew that because he was in rising form the ashes).

To quote - "Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!"

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There were moments in that case when I felt like it was building up brilliantly.

Spoiler: 2-3
Namely, the time when I just began to realize about the incident with the lion.


At that point, there were so many awesome ways they could have taken it, but I was a bid sad that they went with the most realistic ending. Really, the ending was okay, but it didn't leave an impression as good as the rest of the case. I'm pretty sure other people thought the same thing, but I was imagining an ending where
Spoiler: 2-3
it turns out that Regina used the lion to try and murder Bat
.
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Silverpaw wrote:
Spoiler: 2-3 I guess
But I agree that Acro's motives were a little... iffy. He's quite an ass. Regina needs a serious reality check, but she doesn't deserve to die. No one told Bat to stick his freaking head in a lion's mouth. Even if Leon IS tamed, I think that only the tamer herself should handle him.

Spoiler: 2-3
Don't forget that the lion bit because he sneezed, because Regina put pepper on Bat's scarf, because Bat kept on torturing okay, maybe that's not an accurate description Regina with pepper.

So Acro basically killed the man who saved him from poverty because he blamed that man's daughter for a coma that his brother put himself into.

>_>

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Bad Player wrote:
Silverpaw wrote:
Spoiler: 2-3 I guess
But I agree that Acro's motives were a little... iffy. He's quite an ass. Regina needs a serious reality check, but she doesn't deserve to die. No one told Bat to stick his freaking head in a lion's mouth. Even if Leon IS tamed, I think that only the tamer herself should handle him.

Spoiler: 2-3
Don't forget that the lion bit because he sneezed, because Regina put pepper on Bat's scarf, because Bat kept on torturing okay, maybe that's not an accurate description Regina with pepper.

So Acro basically killed the man who saved him from poverty because he blamed that man's daughter for a coma that his brother put himself into.

>_>


Spoiler: 2-3
True, but Bat shouldn't have been sticking his head anywhere near a lion's mouth in the first place, even though he was trying to impress Regina. Boys are so silly. :X


Er... Bat was 30? 0_0 I just played that case, and I remember him being in his early 20s.
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...Bat is 22.
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Bad Player wrote:
...Bat is 22.


Quote:
Sorry to all the people who liked Ben but seriously, he's 30, Regina's 16!!


Oh crap, they said BEN. ^^; My bad.
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...Hopefully someday... xD

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Can I join?

I agree with most of ones here.
Case had drama and everything, even though charrys can be bit annoying...
However, if ya try to understand them, It's easy.

Acro
- C'mon! He lost his lil'bro! What you think you would do and how would ya react?!
Still he is a really good person inside, as we saw. Gentle and nice.
Thinking like this made me like him a bit more...
Acros image is ruined by many people just because of the milk tears...

Regina
- Sure...She isn't Ms. Newton, but like Moe said...
The only world she knows is the sircus and that's why she thinks that's how everyone lives.
I can't understand why many peoples don't get that...It's simple if ya try...
+ She is only 16...
Grown like that and still young: Not surprising.

Ben & Trilo
- ...I'm not their biggest fan, but...I'll try... (I hate Trilo -_-')
Well...Suuuuuuuuure that bro isn't, like, 100% okay, but he has some good sides.
...Like...Well...He is...nah forget it...I've never liked Trilo and I never willl...Ben is OK.
Well...Not to make this completely nothing: I guess It's just his nature and the fct that his in love to Regina.

Moe
- ...I guess ya know already that I'm a fan ^^
Okay: You just have to like him in some way.
C'mon! Everybody hates him and his jokes, but he still does his best and keeps trying!
Still: He is also pretty wise person, eh? He tells those thing and watches out for Regina, so he can't be a total Butz.
+ His jokes are soooooooo bad that they make ya laugh ^^

Max
- I confess I didn't like that mamas boy at first, but you just grow to like him.
He realizes that his been an ass in the end, so at least his trying.

-------

Whew...It's hard to figur...I mean...TELL...something positive about everyone ^^
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Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title
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Zinle wrote:
Acro
- C'mon! He lost his lil'bro! What you think you would do and how would ya react?!
Still he is a really good person inside, as we saw. Gentle and nice.

I don't think you read this post:
Ping' wrote:
So why do we like Acro? Because he looks nice, he seems like a nice person... but he didn't actually do anything to deserve being considered nice. If you only look at his actions, he's really more of a manipulative bastard. So what if he has a tragic backstory? What if he's in a wheelchair? Dahlia didn't have a happy childhood either.


Also if you think murder is a legitimate reaction to losing a loved one, no offense, but I think you have some issues... >_>
Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title
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...Hopefully someday... xD

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Location: Suomi, Finland, Perkele!

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I don't think you read this post:
Ping' wrote:
So why do we like Acro? Because he looks nice, he seems like a nice person... but he didn't actually do anything to deserve being considered nice. If you only look at his actions, he's really more of a manipulative bastard. So what if he has a tragic backstory? What if he's in a wheelchair? Dahlia didn't have a happy childhood either.


Also if you think murder is a legitimate reaction to losing a loved one, no offense, but I think you have some issues... >_>[/quote]
1. I just thought it would be bit cruel to leave someone out...I hope I didn't...
2. True. I hardly read above posts. Only If I have time enough, but...Not that time (either) XD
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Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title
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~Formerly Phantom Dream

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Location: Everywhere and nowhere....BEING AWESOME

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ILoveMaxGalactica* wrote:
Panicakes wrote:
Regina is one of my favourite minor characters, but I seem to be the only one who likes her :C Why so much hate?

Because she stole Max from me. It was just her personality. I mean, she's cute and all, but her attitude is seriously annoying. Not to mention that every grown man for miles is attracted to her, but she's so goddamn oblivious. D:.
.


YES. Reggie is kinda cute, but she looks like she's six. Her personality, was "OMG! A computer? What's that?" or "Look, a tiger! Except I own one, so who cares?" And at one point if you present her profile (this is what made me hate her, mostly) she goes, "Alright!! I look so cute in this picture!! You think I'm cute, dont'cha dont'cha?" and it made her sound like a snobby brat. And, I don't even get how every man is attracted to her, she's not SO utterly cute and precious. She reminds me of Dahlia, looks-wise, because, they're cute. BUT Reggie is 16 (looks 6) Dollie is 20 (looks 7).
Sad to say, I've left C-R. I may still occasionally come on, but, y'know...
I just lost interest, but, this is still an awesome site.
I'll live on through my sprites, I hope. And my major contributions to the Max fanclub. ^_^
Bye ;_; ^_^
Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title
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Regina had to be infuriating, or the motive would make even less sense than it did. Generally speaking, I don't like it when the games make clumsy attempts to tug on my heartstrings. Having such an over-the-top soppy ending to a gleefully ridiculous case doesn't sit well with me. Either set up the villain early, make him genuinely sympathetic, and earn the tears at the end... or have no tears at all.

Spoiler: 1-3 and 2-3
Dee Vasquez moved me a lot more than Acro did. We see the flashback, and see that she wasn't always emotionally dead, and then it's back to the courtroom:

"Looks like I lose... again," she says, absolutely still.

That's good writing.


Still, I liked 2-3 much more than 2-2, because it's so delightfully weird, and Moe understands the theatricality of the court system better than any of the lawyers, and it inhabits its own universe of glorious moon logic.

Spoiler: 2-3
OF COURSE the monkey took the bust. OF COURSE you kill somebody by dropping a bust on their head after making them lift a heavy box. OF COURSE Max is straight!

The logic is all there!

CR Mafia: SERIOUS BUSINESS.
Re: Turnabout Bigtop was f***in amazing!Topic%20Title
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~Formerly Phantom Dream

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Max IS straight. He was in love with Regina!
But when me and ILoveMaxGalactica* killed her, he turned to us. :karma:
Sad to say, I've left C-R. I may still occasionally come on, but, y'know...
I just lost interest, but, this is still an awesome site.
I'll live on through my sprites, I hope. And my major contributions to the Max fanclub. ^_^
Bye ;_; ^_^
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The Original Miranda Berry~ <3

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Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:08 pm

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I didn't really like Trilo,
Or Ben...
Regina was cute, though...
But, I felt kind of bad for her, not only because she didn't know what she did, but because she was proposed to by some guy's wood... XD
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