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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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I think Dahlia because not only is her body count higher. She also was a criminal mastermind at the age of 14 and she was able to easily manipulate the people close to her. The only person Morgan could get to was Pearl but that was because she was to young to understand. Dahlia was able to get to Doug, Phoenix, Terry, and Iris for her own personal gain. Because was a bigger master at using people I think that is what makes her more evil
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Obviously I would say Dahlia is the more diabolical one. And the reasons are justified, she plotted to rob her parents, she killed her step sister, attempted to kill Maya and Godot, not to mention poisoning Diego. I mean Morgan didn't have the guts to kill someone herself I mean she needed a fucking partner.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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morgan
she wanted to do everything for pearls, even murder pearls idol
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Dahlia, by a lot. I mean, I just counted all her crimes, and they are seven. That obviously includes also the trying to kill Maya at the end, even though she didn't succeed.

Morgan on the other hand, was merely an accomplice to two crimes. She stands no chance! :delilah-hair:
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Even though I would love to pin all of the fault on Morgan and her obvious selfishness (and wanting to live life and regain her pride through Pearl), I must go with Dahlia. She was just plain evil. Even after everything she never learned her lesson. Even in DEATH, for heavens sake. I've never so fully hated a character like I did her.
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Dahlia. Without a doubt.

Think about it. When Mia's spirit told Dahlia how she kept failing and all that, what on earth was that coming out of Dahlia when she left Maya's body? Not just her spirit.

I personally believe that Dahlia was maybe closely related to the Devil. Not as in sibling or cousin but...well, you know.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Akiak wrote:
Morgan on the other hand, was merely an accomplice to two crimes. She stands no chance! :delilah-hair:

Uh, Morgan wasn't an accomplice. She masterminded 2-2 and 3-5. Mimi and Dahlia were the accomplices.

G0dot wrote:
I mean Morgan didn't have the guts to kill someone herself I mean she needed a fucking partner.

Please explain why getting someone else to kill someone for you is somehow not as bad as killing that person yourself.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title

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dahlia, cause she actually did all the work
Spoiler: All AA games
the following people are EEEEEEEVIL:
karma, gant, morgan le fey, slashface aka engarde, penguin/atmey, black dahlia, and devil's hand (aka hirohiko aka figure it out yourself)
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JasmineJustice wrote:
Oh, definitely Dahlia. She gave poor Fawles a poisoned bottle and framed him for her killing of Valerie-her own stepsister. She hid evidence with Phoenix and framed him for Swallow's murder. She tried to frame Iris-AND MAYA-for Misty's murder.


Exactly.

And Morgan only wanted to kill one person, so Morgan would be 'honoured.'
Where as Dahlia killed...Terry, Doug, nearly Phoenix, nearly Maya, and would've killed Mia. Dahlia killed to save herself, or to get revenge.
Motive for Terry: So Dahlia would not be found out.
Doug: So no one would find out Dahlia stole poison.
Nick: To get incriminating evidence back.
Maya: To get revenge on a dead person.
Mia: To satisfy Dahlia, because Mia put Dahlia in jail.

AND Dahlia actually planned to kill from the grave. And she was the reason Misty died.
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Morgan simply wanted her family to take over as the main family. She doesn't care who dies because that's the way it's always been. Dahlia wanted revenge on Mia, who was ALREADY dead.
Dahlia is EVIL.
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Definitely Dahlia Hawthorne is most evil of all Phoenix Wright villians. She is also kind of like the devil in disguise, a true manipulator
What we got here is...failure to communicate
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And, originally, Morgan didn't want to kill Maya, although she did agree to let an innocent person be killed... :grey:
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dahila because she just like a mastermind of criminals
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Morgan was greedy, Dahlia was just...inasane
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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I'd say Dahlia. Morgan is evil, true, but all her misdeeds are geared towards a reason, getting the power at the Fey family. So, if Morgan were the master of Kurain, I think she wouldn't act that way. As somebody pointed out before, she's greedy, and she'd do anything to satisfy that greediness, but once she'd fulfill her goal, she'd stop.

On the other hand, concerning Dahlia I have the opposite feeling, it's like she's being evil for the sake of it. Yes, I know that, for instance, if her father hadn't left Morgan, perhaps she wouldn't have any reason for faking a hostage, but it seems to me that then she'd doing any other evil thing anyway.
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And Morgan was 'only' reclaiming what was hers - the position of Master. Remember she was the eldest, and Misty stole it.
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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After I played AAI, I can be safe to say that:
Spoiler:
Quercus Alba was the most Evil (And most hardest to defeat) suspects I've dealt with in all of my time playing Ace Attorney.


Even though Pedo Gant and Dahlia "The Devil Incarnate" Hawthorne were tough as hell too.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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For me, (hi there! im pretty new here :hobolaugh: ) I think it would be Morgan. Considering the fact that she gave birth to Dahlia, it would still be too vague. I hypothesize that Dahlia was neglected. My explanation is from her past. His father was a selfish jeweler, her mother was a greedy position stealer, and her step-mom and step-sister weren't sure of their feelings for her. If she stayed at the place where the Fey clan are, or if she stayed with Iris in the temple, then she wouldn't have been such an evil [uhmm... what's the word?] person because she may be able to socialize herself and not bottle up things with only one person to rely on, her sister, Iris.

Even though both Dahlia and Iris hated their parents very much, you can see the difference. Iris did not hold any vengeance but Dahlia did. Their father must be really uncaring as to make Dahlia THAT influenced. And of course we know Morgan, right?

Another influence would be Valerie Hawthorne's mother [whoever she is...]. :shy: Anyway, if you re-assess Valerie's character overview, you can see that she isn't much of a kind person since she cared less of Dahlia jumping from Dusky Bridge to Eagle River. [although i still don't know if Valerie knows another accomplice, Iris again...there is still less evidence if she knows Iris or not.]

Morgan, on Dahlia's POV, was very greedy. Well, yes really. And if it weren't for her high pride, she would have focused on trying to prepare for her "supposed-to-be" clan position. But instead, she was just put into the branch family. :lana:

So, I therefore pick Morgan :tea:

Last edited by Shiho-chan on Mon May 17, 2010 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Dahlia was a demoness in disguise, only murdering for her own benefits, which was money i think?

At least Morgan wanted Pearly to be the master, not get rich. So, i'll go with Dahlia.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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I don't think Dahlia went all the way to steal a diamond worth a million or two dollars just to get rich. Maybe, since she was already in the right age to do so as she thought, Dahlia would go on her own way. So she needed the money. She must have been twisted because, after that case, she committed crime after crime.

A hypothesis would be that she needed the money. She wanted to be free and get revenge on her father for a certain reason. Unfortunately, much people were too noisy [Valerie much :kikzou: ]. She needed to quiet them down for her to not be stopped. And that's where she states that Iris was a backstabber. We can discuss the Iris thingy on a more elaborate and different topic. :odoroki:
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Morgan, Because she came up with the plan, but Dahlia is very evil too. :chinami:
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Morgan. She worked on a more mental level than a physical level. The way she suckered Pearl into doing something under the impression that she was helping Maya is pretty harsh. I mean, Dahlia killed people and was pretty vindictive, but Morgan was severely messed up.

They're both as bad as each other, just working on different levels.

Plus, Morgan creeps me out loads D:
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Really, I'm going to have to go with Dahlia. Now, the thing is, Morgan was a horrible person, but what she does barely even registers on the scale used to measure Dahlia's evil. While Morgan repeatedly tries to kill/frame/get rid of Maya over a somewhat pathetic spat, Dahlia commits murder; over and over. Let's list each, shall we?
Morgan:
1) Tries to frame niece for murder over some stupid honor thing
2) Tries to kill niece over aforementioned stupid honor thing
Dahlia:
1) Kills man as he is about to reveal her secrets (this wouldn't be so bad, except she planned it FIVE YEARS IN FREAKING ADVANCE)
2) Poisons Diego Armando because she thinks he knows too much
3) Tries to kill Feenie, but kills Doug Swallow instead, then tries to pin it on Feenie
4) See Morgan #2

...actually, after making this I'm torn. Dahlia actually had a halfway decent motive for all her murders, except #4. On the other hand, she did more evil...

...wow, I'm stuck. :sadshoe:
[rant]

[/rant]
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title

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Dahlia, she's just really evil... She planned her first kidnapping/murder when she was 14...
At least Morgan was kind of doing it for Pearls...
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ProsecutorPressley wrote:
Dahlia, she's just really evil... She planned her first kidnapping/murder when she was 14...
At least Morgan was kind of doing it for Pearls...

she was not doing it for Pearls
she was doing it becuase of pride and crushing the main branch she hated so much
Morgan wasn'T thinking about Pearls one second
even worse is the fact she used her OWN 8 yeared daughter to do it for her
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Morgan, She was just EVIL! Not saying that Daliah wasn't but come on! It's her fault in the first place that she even go born so.... pretty much Morgan.
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ProsecutorPressley wrote:
Dahlia, she's just really evil... She planned her first kidnapping/murder when she was 14...
At least Morgan was kind of doing it for Pearls...



Actually she wasn't. She wanted her to do that so that she can become powerful and after that she would prbably kill poor Pearly :larry:
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I'd go for simply saying that they're both evil little buggers. Don't start a mother/daughter war, guys!
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I'd say they're pretty tied.

Spoiler: The spoilers for JFA and T&T - basically the entirety of their past, begin here.
Both of them were masterminds behind their own crimes. Morgan was behind the murder of Dr. Grey and technically, the true boss behind Elise's/Misty's death, because without Mommy's intervention (a.k.a. scheme), nobody would have channeled Dahlia. Obviously Dahlia couldn't have done anything to Elise on her own; she was already executed and therefore, dead. However, Dahlia was in charge of the Dusky Bridge incident, successfully manipulating Valerie, Iris and Terry. She also planned to kill Doug Swallow and eventually, Phoenix without anyone else's help. Now, in those two events, Morgan had no direct involvement.

However, let's think back to their past. When Misty usurped the title of Master from Morgan, demoting the latter to the matriarch of the branch family, that was when Morgan decided that she wanted what was rightfully hers back. "Rightfully", because we can't blame Misty for being more adept at spirit channeling despite being the younger sister. So unfortunately, Dahlia and Iris were caught up in Morgan's plot to regain control of the Fey family. One might say that this was one of the catalysts that led to Dahlia becoming a criminal at the young age of 14, and led to Dusky Bridge, Mia's second case, and even to the Bridge to the Turnabout.

So in that sense, you could say that even though Dahlia is "evil" (I use quotation marks because everyone's definition of evil is relative), Morgan had a hand in making it so. Not only that, she continued on with her own plans to get what she wanted, even if it meant manipulating and even killing anyone she had to.

Motives. Morgan wanted fame and power - if not for herself, for Pearl, because that would automatically translate to fame and power for herself as well, being the mother of a young channeling prodigy who would someday control the Fey family. I can see the future - Pearl would be reduced to a puppet, and Morgan would be pulling the strings, the true power in the clan. And of course, Morgan held a grudge against Misty for being...well, better than she was. Revenge. Greed. Ambition. Pride. And Morgan was willing to go to great lengths to achieve her goals any way she could.

As for Dahlia, her mother didn't want her and her father was terrible at parenting, let's put it at that. So she started plotting against Mr. Hawthorne, bringing Iris in because...well, Iris loved her sister and was willing to help her in any way she could. Don't forget Terry and Valerie, lured in by the promise of great wealth. Doug was killed because he saw right through Dahlia. And Mia was the lawyer responsible for finally putting an end to her life of crime - or so they thought. At first it was for greed and revenge, and then it was simply a vendetta against the attorney who had stopped her. Dahlia went so far as to target Maya Fey next - because the latter was Mia's little sister.

Thus, Morgan and Dahlia set their sights on a common enemy for different motives, but were both responsible for nearly ruining Maya's life - the life of the next Master, Misty's daughter, and Mia's sister.

And because I'm hungry, I'll wrap this up. Dahlia may have killed more people along the way and would have killed more had she not been stopped, but it was just that Morgan was more sophisticated in the scheming department, and so she had less need to murder anyone who got in her way. Then again, technically the only people "in her way" would be the main branch of the Fey family. So body count alone isn't an accurate measure of how evil anyone can be. We have to take into consideration the circumstances, as well as the reasons and the histories of these people. While Dahlia was affected by Morgan's early schemes, things would have turned out a lot better had Morgan submitted to Misty and left well enough alone.


Thus, I wouldn't say one is more evil than the other. They manifest their being evil in different ways and plans and were thrust into various situations, and so cannot be directly compared.

Spoiler: One more.
Although I'd say Morgan has the edge for starting it all. If she had only been a better mother and a better person, Dahlia probably wouldn't have grown up that way. And Iris? See, that's where the nature part comes in - personality. Iris COULD have gone down the same path as Dahlia if she had been a slightly more different person. Like...more like her sister.

Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Dahlia is without a doubt more evil.

Morgan's motive was to get rid of Maya so Pearls could be the new master.
Dahlia is willing to kill anyone and not feel a shred a guilt about it as well as not feeling guilty about the lives she ruined. She is also more manipulative than more Morgan.
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ThePRPD wrote:
Dahlia is without a doubt more evil.

Morgan's motive was to get rid of Maya so Pearls could be the new master.
Dahlia is willing to kill anyone and not feel a shred a guilt about it as well as not feeling guilty about the lives she ruined. She is also more manipulative than more Morgan.

dude
Morgan did not care a second about Pearls, she simply wanted to have the master's blood in her family, and she wanted the honor, but she didn't gave a shit about Pearls, also she wanted to make Pearls a murdere, dude, that is pretty whack imo
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I would have to say that Dahlia is more evil. I'm pretty sure this image speaks for itself: :fire:
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Dahlia killed Diego.

No matter what you do, this makes you more evil than anything :godot:
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End Quote wrote:
Dahlia killed Diego.

No matter what you do, this makes you more evil than anything :godot:

Did you finished the whole game yet?
Diego killed himself (I know Dahlia poisened Diego, I played the game a couple of times)
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Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
End Quote wrote:
Dahlia killed Diego.

No matter what you do, this makes you more evil than anything :godot:

Did you finished the whole game yet?
Diego killed himself (I know Dahlia poisened Diego, I played the game a couple of times)


She tried to kill him by poison, he got in a coma for 5 years and his life was pretty much ruined so that counts as killing to me.
But Diego killing himself, is that actual plot? (I finished it for the 1st time this month)
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End Quote wrote:
Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
End Quote wrote:
Dahlia killed Diego.

No matter what you do, this makes you more evil than anything :godot:

Did you finished the whole game yet?
Diego killed himself (I know Dahlia poisened Diego, I played the game a couple of times)


She tried to kill him by poison, he got in a coma for 5 years and his life was pretty much ruined so that counts as killing to me.
But Diego killing himself, is that actual plot? (I finished it for the 1st time this month)

he said it, but not that direct.
Godot said how much he changed because of that and with the mask Diego died, or something in that direction
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Spoiler: Rant for Most Evil
I'd say Dahlia,though Morgan is half responsable for the way Dahlia became. Morgan wanted kids only if they had high spiritual power.The Dad wanted to be powerfull,that's the only reason why he married Morgan anyways.So once they figured out that The Twins wern't powerful,Morgan chucked them and moved onto more plotting. Leaving Dahlia and Iris to Mr.Hawthorne was probably what started this Devil Dahlia to emerge. With Iris,the only one she could turn to and cared for her,gone because her new mom only wanted 2 damn kids,Dahlia started hating her Father more and more,and she wanted to make sure he knew it. She did that by...
1.Plotting a "kidnapping" with Valerie and Terry
2.Stealing a 2 MILLION DOLLAR Diamond and running away with it
3.Coming back five years later to kill Valerie,and unintentionally Terry.
But it didn't end there,for she Tramatized the young new Defense Attorney that handeld the Fawles case Mia Fey (her soon to be nemesis) thus enraging Mia's Mentor and soon after Boyfriend Diego Armando.The two swore to get Dahlia convicted,which arose problems for Ms.Hawthorne. BIG problems. 6 months past as Mia and Diego fell more in love and more into Dahlia's dark secrets. So finally Dahlia figured she had to shut up Mr. Armando for good by poisonning him. I guess she figured she hit two birds with one stone since it hurt Mia extreamely. But she made another horrible mistake by poisoning him that day.
Moving on...
She had to get rid of any evidence of the poisoning,so she picked a random young fellow out of the crowd named Phoenix Wright to be her little clueless helper.She gave him the necklace that held the poison as a "love gift" and made a run for it.
8 months (i think) after that she finnaly decides to kill phoenix but instead kills doug swallow,as proven by miss Fey. She was put in jail and soon killed.
Thus it was the end...or was it really? She did yet ANOTHER crime at Dusky Bridge 5 years later,even though she was already dead. And what was her goal in that crime? Oh well just getting more revenge on her DEAD NEMESIS MIA FEY.

So yes,Dahlia is by far more evil. She killed 4 people,Absolutely destroid Diego's life,Deeply hurt Mia Fey and almost made her quit law),almost ruined Maya and Pearly's life, Hurt her own sister Iris emotionally,and almost killed Phoenix Wright. Yep she is more evil than Morgan.
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And she stole 2 million dollar from her own dad

Forget about that, he was a prick anyway
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Dahlia did not just 'come back after five years to kill Valerie'

Valerie dragged Dahlia out of hiding by telling her 'Hey Imma rat you out now'

Mia herself admits that Valerie left Dahlia no other choice but to act

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Dahlia ever had any plans to go after Valerie or Terry or anyone else had Valerie not decided to confess on Dahlia's behalf

I really can't understand why so many people either miss this very important point or ignore it completely when the game makes it so clear

Not that I'm saying that justifies Dahlia murdering someone but she didn't just show up on a whim to stab Val in the back

Self-preservation is a very strong motive I think
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Dahlia did not just 'come back after five years to kill Valerie'

Valerie dragged Dahlia out of hiding by telling her 'Hey Imma rat you out now'

Mia herself admits that Valerie left Dahlia no other choice but to act

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Dahlia ever had any plans to go after Valerie or Terry or anyone else had Valerie not decided to confess on Dahlia's behalf

I really can't understand why so many people either miss this very important point or ignore it completely when the game makes it so clear

Not that I'm saying that justifies Dahlia murdering someone but she didn't just show up on a whim to stab Val in the back

Self-preservation is a very strong motive I think

:keiko: WARNING: SIG CONTAINS LAME JOKE
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