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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Turn on your lovelight.

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Morgan is evil because she was wanted the power of Fey clan. But Dahlia killed so many people for no reason or very small reason. She is more than a psychopath than being an evil. And its worse than being evil.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Morgan is more evil. While Dollie had a twisted childhood, causing her to act like she was in the game, Morgan cared about no one. She was, to say it nicely, a bitch.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title

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Dahlia, without a doubt. Ready? Here's my opinion:
Dahlia, as far as I know, started planning her hiests when she was 14. 14!! That's got to count for something. Even then during that first plan she wanted to cut her 'boyfriend'-Terry Fawles-out of the deal, which she did by jumping off the bridge. Then a few years later she came back and killed her sister to tried and frame Fawles, which ultimately resulted in his suicide during the trail because Dahlia told him to drink the poison if they 'couldn't trust each other anymore'. (Keep up with the death count because of her actions: 2 down) Next she poisons Diego Armando(Death count at 3) because she's afraid he might know too much. Then she gets a bit clever and uses Phoenix to hide her own guilt (which does backfire, I know, because now she has to get it back because he's flashing it around being all "Look! My Dollie gave this too me!" God forbid someone says "Oh it can hold something... Looks like water, I'm going to drink it." And then that person dies. What is Phoenix gonna say? "Dollie gave it to me."). Now she uses her sister Iris to try and get the bottle back but Iris fails so now she goes to try and kill Phoenix to get it back. Then Dahlia hears about Phoenix going to meet with Doug Swallow so she follows them, realizes she can't allow Doug Swallow to live and sees Phoenix push him. So when he gets up Dahlia eletrocutes him(Death Count at 4) and tries to frame Phoenix which backfires because Mia finds him innocent which sparks their rivalry. Here's where I think Dahlia truly turns into a demoness: She smiles, accepts defeat and death. She knows where her trial his heading but is smiling the whole way through. (Who smiles like an angel when you've been sentenced to death?) So Mia dies sometime between then and this time: She and Morgan hatch a plan to kill Maya but for two seperate reasons. Dahlia wants to get revenge on Mia by killing her sister. Now who does all the work in the plan? Dahlia does. She makes Iris an accomplice and uses her again. What Dahlia didn't know is that Misty(Elise) summoned her, not Pearl who was supposed to, so she goes to try and kill Maya without knowing. Now Godot stabs 'Dahlia'(Misty) and she dies (Death Count at 5) to save Maya. Maya then channels Dahlia and Dahlia has Iris help her move the body before locking her away in the training chamber. Then Dahlia testifies pretending to be Iris but eventually cracks and comes out of Maya's body. Sometime along that trial Godot reveals he's Diego Armado (Death Count back to 4) and we hear about Dahlia's plots through Iris and blah blah blah. Not even Death could stop Dahlia, she was able to kill even though she had left our world. If Death can't stop her, what could?
Now we have Morgan. Unlike Dahlia Morgan had a pride issue, and put all her hopes into Pearl to 'avenge' her and become the Master over Maya. Morgan's main goal was to eliminate Maya so Pearl would be Master. She attempted to do this twice.
#1. She pairs up with Mimi Miney to try and get Maya locked away in jail or murder which backfires and has Morgan getting locked away in jail.
#2. She pairs up with Dahlia to kill Maya, which she does for Pearl and for herself somewhat to bring honor back to the Branch Family. This plan also fails.
Dahlia was acting purely for her own intent, and not for anyone else. She acted out of revenge, anger, and somewhat fear.
Morgan acted out of revenge as well but ultimately failed.
Dahlia is an evil, evil little witch.

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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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^Epic first post, man.

Aaaaaaand that's all I have to say.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title

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16BitsQuaRed wrote:
^Epic first post, man.

Aaaaaaand that's all I have to say.


lol, thanks.
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title

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:that-b-word: stole two million dollars from her father (the true criminal in this case, and knowing how it ties together, probably :karma: or someone like that). Faking her death, she then had to kill Valerie (and frame Fawles) for planning on revealing her secret. From there, figured out the whole mess, so she poisoned him (It'd be REALLY interesting to see what'd happen if it killed him. I thought about it for a while, and ended up with Dahlia becoming the Master of the Kurain Channelling Technique. Wait, WHAT?) and gave the poisoned bottle to Wright, pretending to have love at first sight. Wright was going to be killed off too, but :ayame: got Dahlia to be nice (which makes sense, if you realise that this was all because of her Freudian Excuse) and give him a chance. The chance didn't work, and Swallow ended up dead instead of Wright when Dahlia got sick of waiting. Then Wright -ate- the poison bottle, and Dahlia got executed. Being very NOT HAPPY with Mia 'n'all, she went along with Morgan's plan to knock off Maya, which got messed up courtesy of Godot (like I said earlier, what would have happened if he was killed in the first place?). The murder of Misty wasn't her fault, and everything else stems down to her Freudian Excuse. Damn :karma:. :tea:, however, was just pure evil. She just wanted to be able to brag. So she co-conspired with :Mimi: to frame Maya. She got caught (all thanks to :phoenix:. It'd be another interesting what-if as to what would have happened if Dahlia did kill Wright) and sent off to jail. From there, she set up a plan (Out Gambitted by Dahlia, but that's not the point) to have :pearl: HERSELF do the deed out of sheer malice. She even disguised it as being to help :maya:. Her excuse is that she was doing it -for- Pearl. I doubt it. Ergo, Dahlia's murders were all because of :karma: . Because everything comes down to :karma:. Except for Morgan. She was just evil.
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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It's hard to say, because they both have Glowing eyes of evil
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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I think they are pretty much the same level, but Dahlia just barely wins because she killed more people. A HECK LOT MORE PEOPLE.

Plus ruining Diego's life and trying to kill Maya.

Morgan, however, is not to be triffled with either. After all, she's the source of the evil that was passed on to Dollie. Thank Goodness that it passed over Iris and Pearl... X-x
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Dahlia. Morgan was basically just being a mothe who wanted best for her kid. Dahlia was a deranged phsyco who was greedy and wanted revenge at the world. Of course, Dahlia's like, my 2nd favorite character.
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:chinami: and :morgan: they're both equal
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Tenderlender wrote:
Dahlia. Morgan was basically just being a mothe who wanted best for her kid. Dahlia was a deranged phsyco who was greedy and wanted revenge at the world. Of course, Dahlia's like, my 2nd favorite character.

No. She didn't care one bit about Pearl. She used her so she could extract revenge on Misty by having a branch family member take over as Kurain Master. Morgan was just as bad as Dahlia.
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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There is no difference between two evils in my eyes.

Morgan just wanted to restore her pride and use her youngest daughter to further her goals.

Dahlia has a more frightening appearance when she's angry, but she's just as petty and weak as her mother.

Besides, Matt would put them in their place: The Kitchen. :psycho-matt:
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HumbleClutter wrote:


Besides, Matt would put them in their place: The Kitchen. :psycho-matt:

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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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They were both vile and disgusting individuals.

But if I had to pick JUST ONE... I'd say Morgan.

Because, well, she was pretty much one of the big reasons the Fey Family went to shit in the first place (Well, besides DL-6 that is.)

She was so jealous of her younger sister becoming the master when it was supposed to be her, she tried her damnedest to take it away from her.

Even after Misty and Mia were gone, Maya was still in her way. And since Iris and Dahlia were taken away from her and they had no spiritual power anyway, poor Pearls ended up being a "prodigy", and this of course, THRILLED Morgan. Now all she had to do was kill Maya and make Pearl become the master.

It's quite sad and pathetic how Morgan treats Pearl- She basically treats her like an object and nothing more. She NEVER loved her, people! Morgan was just taking advantage of her childhood innocence to get her to do whatever she wanted... Even going as far as lying to her about why she had to summon Dahlia's ghost- She said it was to 'save' Maya... Bullshit. And SHE was the reason that Dahlia went bat-shit crazy in the first place!

So, all in all, Morgan Fey is the most disgusting, cruel, vicious, vile and malicious villain I have EVER come across in a video game. She used Mimi Miney and her OWN DAUGHTERS to try to kill her OWN NIECE just because of her being bitter over not becoming the master. That's what I call a poor, unfortunate soul.
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Definitely Dahlia, she was pure evil :ack:
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Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Woo! Woo! Woo!

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I believe Dahlia is the worst, she even admitted it in the last chapter that what she did was all for herself, she didn't care for Morgan or Maya.

Spoiler:
What about case 4? She faked her own kidnapping and killed her step-sister, framed her boyfriend, stole something worth 2 million dollars. If i had to say, she's the biggest gold digger I've ever seen.

Case 1. She killed her ex-boyfriend Doug Swallow and tried to frame Phoenix Wright by playing with his feelings. Iris was involved in that case also pretending to be Dahlia



To me, she's the baddest character in the game, haha, but i felt a strange attraction to her, Lol. I probably fell for that nice girl gimmick.
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Dahlia's a psychopath.

Dahlia's attitude:

:chinami: What's mine is mine, and whatever belongs to anyone else is also mine if I want it and I can find a way to get it.
:chinami: My problems are the problems of anyone else who's dumb enough to care about or help me, but no one else's problems are my problems, even if I caused them.
:chinami: If someone falls for my crap because they're a pervert, that's their fault for being a pervert, even if I encouraged it.
:chinami: If someone pisses me off, they deserve to go down, but if someone tries to punish me for what I've done, or even point out that I did it in order to protect someone else, they're being really mean!
:chinami: If someone wants to sacrifice their ass for me, that's their choice, and I don't owe them anything for it. If they don't want to sacrifice their ass for me, what's wrong with them?
:chinami: I'm not responsible for anything I do (unless I'm bragging about how brilliant it was) and can never owe anyone anything, but if my sister creates a problem for me, they owe it to me to help me deal with every resulting difficulty that I create through my response to their failure.
:chinami: There's nothing wrong with stealing from someone rich, even if I'm also rich in the sense that the victim is already spending their money on me.
:chinami: It's okay to use my mother as a justification for extortion, even if I make no effort to share the proceeds with her, publicly scorn her, and let her think I'm dead.
:chinami: If someone fails to help protect me from the consequences of stabbing someone in the back, they're a backstabber.
:chinami: The purpose of making promises is to get the other person to promise someone in return - then, if your end of it comes up, hope that you're either out of reach or that they'll forgive you and uphold their end anyway.
:chinami: There is nothing inconsistent about using something that someone did because they loved me to punish them for not loving me enough, like stealing the ransom daddy paid for me and making him think I'm dead.
:chinami: Anyone who doesn't care about one of my family members is scum, even though I don't care about them either and I'm the goddess of being a sneaky bitch.
:chinami: Anyone who trusts me when I'm clearly untrustworthy, even if I went out of my way to charm them and appear innocent, deserves to be mocked for trusting me. On the other hand, anyone who doesn't trust me is an enemy who asked for whatever I did to stop them.
:that-b-word: It's okay to mock 23-year-olds for being old (while flirting with people twice their age), because when I'm 25 no one will think I'm old because I never grow up.
:chinami: Success or failure in life is measured by how selfish you can be and get away with it, or at least by being able to get revenge if you get caught.
:chinami: Anyone who causes me a fraction of the suffering I caused their loved ones deserves to feel the suffering they caused me.
:chinami: If I go along with someone else's evil scheme for an even more evil reason than theirs, it's their fault. If someone else goes along with my evil scheme and I have to make it more evil because they screwed up, it's their fault. If someone has to hurt an innocent person who they didn't know was innocent in order to defend themself against my attack, it's their fault.
:chinami: If someone breaks a promise they made to me in order to keep a promise that we both made to someone else that I'm trying to break, they're a traitor and asked for whatever I have to do to them.
:chinami: If a ton of people bust their ass trying to protect someone that I'm trying to hurt, going out of their way and sacrificing themselves in order to help someone that I'm going out of my way to hurt, that just means that I beat all those people if I get through to my target.
:chinami: If my sister loves someone who actually loves her back more than she loves (sororicidal) me, she's a backstabber.
:chinami: In other words, if my sister doesn't let me kill her boyfriend when I need to, so I try to do it behind her back, she's the one betraying me. :nixiesob:
:chinami: The fact that the person I want revenge against was murdered doesn't stop me from continuing to want to take revenge myself. Damn kill-stealer. :redd:
:chinami: If it's hypocrisy to blame Morgan for putting Pearl in danger while I also put Pearl in danger in the exact same way, I don't care, as long as I have someone else to scorn while I'm being scorned.
:chinami: I insist on being the center of attention, even if I'm dead, or people think I'm dead. I mean, why look at the beautiful woman in the room who isn't an evil bitch disguised as an innocent frail maiden? :youngmia: Boooring!
:chinami: There's nothing ironic about using my alleged grudge against Iris to justify locking her in a dangerous cave when the only reason it works is because she cares about me too much to call me out on it.
:chinami: If I'm tired of pretending to be someone I'm not, taking a snipe shot at someone's heart is a good way to let off some steam.
:delilah-hair: Mocking people is always satisfying, no matter the reason.
:chinami: In conclusion, it's easier to hide behind a fake smile when I'm laughing inside at all the pawns I screwed over and suckers who trusted me.


JWolf wrote:
Then she gets a bit clever and uses Phoenix to hide her own guilt (which does backfire, I know, because now she has to get it back because he's flashing it around being all "Look! My Dollie gave this too me!" God forbid someone says "Oh it can hold something... Looks like water, I'm going to drink it." And then that person dies. What is Phoenix gonna say? "Dollie gave it to me.").


She poured the contents of the bottle into Armando's coffee. All that was left was residue, which she knew was not a fatal dose.

Emerl wrote:
:that-b-word: stole two million dollars from her father (the true criminal in this case, and knowing how it ties together, probably :karma: or someone like that). Faking her death, she then had to kill Valerie (and frame Fawles) for planning on revealing her secret.


Yeah, I've thought about that. The crimes she committed while alive were basically stealing the gem and then a bunch of ugly cover-up. (A bit like Joe Darke, I guess.) This is especially true since it's implied that the fake kidnapping went wrong because Iris chickened out. However, she gave the poison to Fawles before they did the ransom handoff on the bridge. That meant that, from the very beginning, she was prepared for the possibility that someone would have to die for her scheme to work.
Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Tifforo wrote:
Dahlia's a psychopath.

Dahlia's attitude:



Best post describing Dahlia ever :godot:
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Well, they're both crazy bitches, but I'm gonna say that Morgan is more evil, while Dahlia is more batshit insane. A lot of the crazy stuff Dahlia did when she was younger, e.g., stealing money, getting together with weird, older guys (I mean, Fawles is a sympathetic character and all, but... man, it's just a little creepy), and generally screwing everyone over seems like a massive cry for attention, and I can't help but feel that she might've been a slightly better person if Mommy and Daddy had loved her. She'd probably still be a bitch, but maybe not a homicidal bitch.
I always think of Morgan as being more evil because she does all these horrible things perfectly calmly. She didn't think twice about trying to kill Maya, whom the daughter she supposedly loves absolutely adores, all while saying it's for the greater good. Dahlia may have killed more people, but she never claimed that it was for anyone's benefit other than her own. She's like a creepy pageant mom or something, living vicariously through her daughter. She's scheming, selfish, manipulative, an all-around horrible person, and unlike Dahlia, she won't even admit it.
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Fantasmically wrote:
Well, they're both crazy bitches, but I'm gonna say that Morgan is more evil, while Dahlia is more batshit insane. A lot of the crazy stuff Dahlia did when she was younger, e.g., stealing money, getting together with weird, older guys (I mean, Fawles is a sympathetic character and all, but... man, it's just a little creepy), and generally screwing everyone over seems like a massive cry for attention, and I can't help but feel that she might've been a slightly better person if Mommy and Daddy had loved her. She'd probably still be a bitch, but maybe not a homicidal bitch.


That's a good thought about Dahlia being an attention whore because of not getting enough love from her parents.
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I personally think that Dahlia Hawthorne is the most evil (and brilliant) villain in localized English versions of the games.

She was the only one that didn't have a very clear/strong motive.

Yet carried out crimes that greatly outstretched all the other villains.

Matt Engarde comes a close second in my 'favourite villain list', tied with Kristoph.

Morgan: "My sister is better than me, and I am unrecognised! I am despised! HATE!! REVENGE! GRAH!!"

Kristoph: "I was disgraced, something that's turning up will ruin my life. MUST COMMIT MURDER."

The above two motives are actually quite justified.

Dahlia: "My mother doesn't love me. ...And I live with my Daddy... ...That's about it."

Me: ...wut.
Why are you...lying to me?
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Ooh... tough question! I had to think about this one for a bit.
Honestly, I don't really think you can say one person is "more evil" than the other. I think Dahlia has done more evil things than Morgan, but that doesn't change the fact that Morgan wouldn't hesitate to do something similar (i.e. the plot to kill Maya). And really, both of them do these evil things to benefit themselves... Morgan might say that she does it all for Pearl, but really it's obviously she does it so that SHE can live vicariously through Pearl.

I do think Dahlia can be more easily classified as a "psychopath" though, as someone previously said.
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Regarding Dahlia being a psychopath, here are the actual diagnostic criteria for that:

[list=][*]Glibness/superficial charm
[*]Grandiose sense of self-worth
[*]Pathological lying
[*]Cunning/manipulative
[*]Lack of remorse or guilt
[*]Emotionally shallow
[*]Callous/lack of empathy
[*]Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
[*]Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
[*]Parasitic lifestyle
[*]Lack of realistic, long-term goals
[*]Impulsiveness
[*]Irresponsibility
[*]Poor behavioral controls
[*]Early behavioral problems
[*]Juvenile delinquency
[*]Revocation of conditional release
[*]Criminal versatility
[*]Many short-term marital relationships
[*]Promiscuous sexual behavior
[/list]
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Apples and oranges... Dang, this one's hard. Morgan is a stupendous dastard and Dahlia is a professional heart-ripper. Both qualities drive me nuts. Objectively, I might have to say they're equal. Subjectively, I'd give Dahlia a slight edge, as her brand of manipulation hits a little closer to home.
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:tea: & :chinami: are both supervillans of the Ace Attorney universe, it's rather fitting for them to be mother and daughter.

:chinami: is beguiling (look at the way all the men in the courtroom treat her) and has killed many times.
yet she was a pawn in :tea: 's plan to eradicate the main family.

for :tea:'s plan to work :chinami: had to be dead.

so in that aspect (using your demonic older daughter's spirit to kill your neice and have your youngest inherit the mastery that she doesn't really want) :tea: is more evil. (but not by much)
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Both are very very evil. HOWEVER ONLY ONE CAN BE MORE EVIL!

And that person is Dahlia. :delilah-hair:
Why?
Because she was going to try and kill Feenie :sick:
If she succeeded then there would be no Phoenix Wright.
And thus the destruction of the series.
Therefore Dahlia is more evil.
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If it's between Dahlia and Morgan, I'm going for Morgan.

I have mentioned already how I think Dahlia fails as a villain. I can't take her seriously, so her oh-so-evilness is not that... evil. She just makes me laugh these days...
As for Morgan, she knew how devoted her daughter was to her and knew she'd do anything she asked her to. She probably worded the letter that way on purpose, to keep Pearl from figuring out that the plan was actually doing a bad thing to the Master/Maya. As for Pearl not understanding the difficult kanji (original Japanese) well, that's just a fuck up from Morgan's part.

So the entire Fey family is kinda dumb.

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ChihiroAyasato wrote:
Dahlia: "My mother doesn't love me. ...And I live with my Daddy... ...That's about it."

Me: ...wut.

That's not completely fair. The motive behind her original crime was two-fold: Payback against her father for being a terrible dad, as well as the potential for getting rich off of selling the diamond. Every crime from that point afterwards (until she died) was to cover her tracks: She killed Valerie Hawthorne because she was going to rat her out, she tried to kill Diego Armando because he was close to discovering the truth, she intended to kill Phoenix in order to get her bottle back, and she killed Doug Swallow in order to keep people from finding out that she had stolen poison, and then framed Phoenix in the hopes of killing two birds with one stone (Phoenix would get locked away with the poison bottle, and Swallow would be dead).

After she died, the motive behind her last attempted crime was pure revenge against Mia Fey.

Her rough upbringing certainly contributed to her decision to steal the diamond in the first place, but the motives behind her becoming a criminal were revenge and greed. Afterwards it was a slippery slope of having to commit more and more crimes in order to cover her tracks.
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Lisa Basil.
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DerpeyHerpmann wrote:
Lisa Basil.


Please no smartass answers.
The topic is about Case 3-5 and not the entire 3rd game... :yuusaku:

C-A
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King Derpey III

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Well, in that case...

DAHLIADAHLIADAHLIA :chinami:
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The truth will see you free~

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Morgan for me.

They're both evil. Morgan just had more malicious intents compared to Dahlia.
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char13happy wrote:
Morgan for me.

They're both evil. Morgan just had more malicious intents compared to Dahlia.


Y-yeah... killing one girl to have her daughter assume the 'throne' is not as bad as thinking of killing the same girl, so that your nemesis would see her dead spirit for always and "live" with the guilt of knowing it was her fault...

C-A
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The truth will see you free~

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I think 'more malicious' is quite subjective for people. Though you DO raise a nice point.

It's quite difficult to weigh who's more evil than the other.
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Morgan.
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Hm. I'm not really sure what can I say here. Both of them were evil, but they became evil, because events in their life shaped them that way.

Dahlia's hatred towards her father is understandable, taking the way he ruined their family into consideration. Fake kidnapping plan was more dumb than evil to me, well, except letting a pawn in it be executed. Probably she though his life was sort of useless... Seeing how Fawles was not very intelligent, I can understand how she could have thought that...

All the actions later during her life were mostly her protecting herself. It... didn't go too well.

And... She hates a person who basically put her to her death and wanted to take revenge. Understandable too, I think.

...Please note, understandable =/= acceptable.


And Morgan, well... I'm pretty sure she could've just asked, haha. But she decides to kill Maya off instead, eh.
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I doubt just asking would've worked... Kurain seems like a place heavy on tradition, after all. Unless Maya somehow lost her psychic powers, due to an intense shock maybe, I doubt they would've just let her abdicate and let Pearl take over.

C-A
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Crushing on the prosecutors

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Dahlia
"Er, wasn't she poisoned, by, um, poison?"
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At least Morgan was trying to get power for her and Pearl. On the other hand Dahlia was killing people pretty much to cover up one crime, or for some other petty reason.
Maybe I'll put something here someday. You never know...

Vesti and Lauren's Interdimensional Investigations
This CYOA follows Vesti Gates and Lauren Tehra, two detectives who search for the truth, whether in their own dimension or otherwise.
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Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey...

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Morgan at least cared about Pearl to some extent (although it might just be caring about her being a potential way to become the new head of Kurain). Dahlia, on the other hand, only cared about herself.
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