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Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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TheDoctor wrote:
Reading all this craziness about Godot's plan makes me almost want to pull a CinemaSins on the case.

For example:

1: I understand Godot's reason for planning it this way, but why the **** is Misty going along with it? Can't she see the obviously easier way of solving the problem? She wouldn't even have to reveal her identity, just warn her ****ing daughter of the ****ing danger she's in.

2: Also, I can see how Godot's plan, ill thought out as it is, could work out in the short term, but won't Maya be screwed if Morgan gets Pearl to try again at a later date? Nope, if you absolutely have to kill someone in order to save Maya, the logical choice is Pearl.

3: So, why is it Mia thinks to have Maya channel Dahlia while being locked up, but the thought never occurs to Misty? She could have imprisoned herself in the same cave, channeled Dahlia, and Morgan's plans would be temporarily postponed.

4: Was there really a need to mutilate Misty's corpse like that? I know you have to send her body across the ravine in order to hide the murder location, but once on the other side, why not simply throw her in the river?

5: That last sin raises the question of who thought up the idea to mutilate Misty's corpse. Was it Iris? If so, she's a ****ing moron for not seeing the obvious river solution. Was it Godot? If so, Iris is still a ****ing moron for not seeing the obvios river solution and adjusting his plan accordingly.

Etc...
-----------------
Oddly enough, despite all that, I still ship Phoenix and Iris on the basis of them being kind of a cute couple, but yeah, Iris has some major flaws to work through before that could remotely work out.

At least you know the insanity of her actions then. I personally hate Iris. But that's my opinion and if you think she and Phoenix would make a good couple that's your opinion, and that's fine. But the idea that without ever working on her problems Phoenix got back together with her? I'm sorry but no. MAYBE, after years of therapy and getting rid of that habit of hers MAYBE. But I'm not holding my breath. Sorry.
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Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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I really think it has more to do with my inability to see Phoenix and Maya as a couple. I honestly would ship Phoenix with Thalassa before Maya (mainly for Trucy's sake, but it's still an easier pairing for me to swallow than Phoenix and Maya).

Although I think there's good potential for some dramatic introspection for both Phoenix and Iris. Phoenix would have to come to terms with the fact that his first love was lying to him the entire time and was a completely different person. Sure, he's relieved that the girl he fell for never actually tried to kill him, but at the same time, he has to come to terms with the fact that, while she claims to love him enough to give her life for him, she was still complicit in covering up at least two different murders. If done right, it could be a very interesting insight into Phoenix's character (of course, there's also the drama of him losing his badge that could complicate matters).

Iris on the other hand, has a good long while left to go on her prison sentence. In her case, she'd know her feelings were genuine, but she has the guilt of having lied to him, being the willing accomplice to the murderer of his best friend's mother, and not stopping Dahlia long before she ended up killing that student. She'd also have to reexamine her motives for ever helping her sister cover up a murder to begin with. Was she trying to help her keep from going to prison, but at the same time prevent her from killing someone else? Was she just desperate for acceptance? There's a lot of self-examination she could do, and her jail time is the perfect time to do it.

In my version of how the endgame plays out, she gets the therapy she needs, realizes what a fool she was, but is now ready to move on with her life. After being released from prison, she and Phoenix meet up again, and they both agree to put the past behind them and start fresh. Whether or not their relationship would work after that is a matter I'll leave up for debate, but I do believe they'd both want to at least give it a try.
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Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
Which makes him a great and tragic villain


It does not. Godot is not a great tragic person, neither a hero or a villain. He's just a man who decided to sit in a corner and mope. Wallow in his own misery instead of at least attempting to try to live with how things are going now.

Quote:
But I'll take this opportunity to point out I've taken notice you often feel the need to emphasize the stupidity of all characters or stories, whether it's related or not.


Well 3-5 is practically the epitome of stupidity that I have seen in the AA games to date.
And we're talking about Iris and Phoenix, two rather major characters of 3-5, mentioned the plan, of course there's a relation to the plan and Iris.

Quote:
If one thinks it does so much good, there are plenty of people who are willing to do it.


Then I hope people who think that's okay get immediately told by those people they wanna sacrifice themselves for exactly how stupid it sounds and what emotional distress they will cause them. Knock 'em down a peg.

Quote:
Maybe I am misunderstanding you here... Are you saying you only ship people you would date yourself?


Yes and No. I ship people that I find interesting and that would work.
Also, you make it sound strange. I'm sure I'm not the first person who ships people where she'd think "I'd like to date that person myself".

Quote:
Was it ever mentioned that Iris even knew about Elise's real identity?


Yes. Bikini says Misty arrived a few days earlier and showed the talisman, proving her identity. I think it's mentioned that Iris was there, too.

Quote:
I just got done explaining how Iris was willing to kill her own sister and sacrifice her own life for Phoenix.


You mention that but Iris never really mentioned that herself. She says she was willing to do whatever it took to stop her sister... but would she have done it? People say things they'd do all day and ultimately would not do when the situation really arose.

Quote:
He's a tragic murderer


Godot is not tragic! He's a mopey guy who killed. He's a murderer, plain and simple.

Quote:
The only decision she has ever made for herself is to become a nun and help Bikini


I dunno, wasn't Iris left at the temple as a very, very young child and was raised at the temple? Kind of hard for her to decide to become a nun if it's practically the major thing she's known for years.

Quote:
Nope, if you absolutely have to kill someone in order to save Maya, the logical choice is Pearl.


Or, you know, burn the goddamn letter. :ron:

Quote:
I really think it has more to do with my inability to see Phoenix and Maya as a couple.


I don't see Phoenix and Maya as a potential couple, but I still don't ship Phoenix and Iris.

C-A
Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Nope, if you absolutely have to kill someone in order to save Maya, the logical choice is Pearl.


Or, you know, burn the goddamn letter. :ron:

Note the phrase "absolutely have to kill someone." As in, "if you'll only be satisfied if there's some sort of bloodshed to save Maya, the logical choice is Pearl."

CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
I really think it has more to do with my inability to see Phoenix and Maya as a couple.


I don't see Phoenix and Maya as a potential couple, but I still don't ship Phoenix and Iris.


And I still don't ship Phoenix and Edgeworth. Your point was?
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Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
No, even Godot admits that his plan was stupid.

C-A

That doesn't mean it didn't play out a lot better in his mind. He obviously only realized how stupid it was after everything went wrong. The same could be said of Iris and Misty.
Ucha Nekome wrote:
How does taking the fall for Godot help Maya? Answer me that. Godot is a murderer. He's a tragic murderer but he still came up with that plan for one reason and one reason alone. To kill Dahlia with his own hands. Had that been Pearl, he wouldn't have cared. Yet Iris helped him despite Maya's mother being killed by him. The only thing that plan did was get someone murdered and almost killed Maya. Anyone with a brain knows that. So I ask you WHY why would anyone in their right mind go along with it.

Godot's objective wasn't to kill Dahlia, it was to protect Maya as he couldn't do with Mia. Killing Dahlia was more a drive of the moment.

Quote:
Iris isn't in her right mind. She's a dependent fool who obediently follows someone if they say it will turn out ok. That's dangerous. She has no mind of her own. All she does is follow and follow. Never once did she take the reigns of her own destiny and decide for herself. Well there was that one time with Dahlia, but lets be real here, she should have realized how crazy Dahlia was before all this. She has a brain she should learn to use it.

It's easy to say 'Dahlia is evil, nobody in their right mind would help her', but it's not so simple. She's still her sister. Iris probably thought that Dahlia could change if she got rid of her criminal past. She seems like the kind of person who can see something good in everyone, even if they're hellspawns (as oppossed to Dahlia, who is unable to acknowledge any good quality in anyone). And maybe she felt guilty for leaving her in the lurch in the fake kidnapping incident.
Quote:
The only decision she has ever made for herself is to become a nun and help Bikini. And that's what she should continue doing. She attaches to people and follows them like a lost puppet with no will of it's own. She may be capable of loving others but that love is dependent.

Ironically, she didn't make that decision for herself. Her father abandoned her at the temple when she was a kid.
The thing is that Iris does make her own decisions. It just so happens that most of her decisions ( at least the ones we know about) involve helping people in unlawful schemes.
Quote:
And now I will speak my final argument before dropping the matter. Godot said he should have gone to Phoenix to stop the plan. After all you need someone over the age of 21 to visit the shrine. In order to stop the whole thing Phoenix could have just told Pearls no and explained why. No one would get hurt, and no one would have died. Pearl would be safe from being hurt from her sensitive naivety, and Maya wouldn't have seen her mother die in front of her. While Godot admitted the only reason he didn't do that was for the sake of revenge and his resentment toward Phoenix, IRIS had no excuse. SHE SHOULD HAVE TOLD PHOENIX, MAYA, SOMEONE! Same goes for that boneheaded mother who was willing to "sacrifice herself" as well but in the end the two of them just looked like idiots going along with a plan that had little chance of success and actually involved Maya being in the dangerous place.

Telling them may seem like the obvious solution at first glance, but why would Maya beleive a random stranger without asking any questions? Because neither Iris or Misty wanted to reveal their identities.



However, I do think that Iris involvement in the plan was pretty forced. For starters, why does Godot need someone to take the fall if in the end he didn't mind getting caught? And what was Iris supposed to do if the original plan of restraining Dahlia had worked? There must be a reason why she went to the bridge, right? Were they going to do the pendulum thing with Misty alive and channeling Dahlia to keep her as far as posible from Maya or what? But anyway, I think Iris was obeying Misty, rather than Godot. After all, she's the master of kurain and therefore has authority over her.
Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
And I still don't ship Phoenix and Edgeworth. Your point was?


Just that your supposed logic of "I don't ship Phoenix-Maya, so I ship this" doesn't make sense since there are people, like me, who don't ship Phoenix with Maya, but also don't ship him with Iris. Or Edgeworth. Or anyone.

Quote:
That doesn't mean it didn't play out a lot better in his mind.


Allowing a small child that is idolizing her mother and is unfortunately very sheltered and gullible, so she would do anything asked of her, to perform something that I know is supposed to harm Maya to actually go through with this action instead of my trying to prevent it by burning the letter, substituting it with another one that doesn't involve this plan or otherwise put a huge finger into the inkpot of the plan... There's no way this could go wrong!

No. I honestly cannot see how this plan was, in any way, potentially better in his head. It might have worked better, had Misty told Iris her part of the plan, tell her to severely tie her up and lock her into her room, so that when Misty channels Dahlia, Dahlia is around but ultimately can't do anything since she's incapacitated.
But nobody thought of that.

Quote:
Godot's objective wasn't to kill Dahlia, it was to protect Maya as he couldn't do with Mia. Killing Dahlia was more a drive of the moment.


Godot flat out admits he never actually cared to save Maya. He just wanted revenge on the woman who destroyed his life. After all, he flat out admits that, despite knowing in his head that it was Misty in front of him (at least, her body), he still freaking stabbed her. And that, even if it had been Pearl, he still would've fought with all he had because all he saw was Dahlia.

And no, that was not a drive of the moment thing. This was murder. Not homicide. Not self-defense, not bodily harm with fatal causes. Murder. He willingly planted himself in a place where something dangerous was going to happen and he knew he was willing to do anything to stop things. That is practically a pre-determination for murder.

C-A
Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
Telling them may seem like the obvious solution at first glance, but why would Maya beleive a random stranger without asking any questions? Because neither Iris or Misty wanted to reveal their identities.

Why would anyone's hidden identity matter if their daughter's/cousin's life is on the line?
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Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
Allowing a small child that is idolizing her mother and is unfortunately very sheltered and gullible, so she would do anything asked of her, to perform something that I know is supposed to harm Maya to actually go through with this action instead of my trying to prevent it by burning the letter, substituting it with another one that doesn't involve this plan or otherwise put a huge finger into the inkpot of the plan... There's no way this could go wrong!

No. I honestly cannot see how this plan was, in any way, potentially better in his head. It might have worked better, had Misty told Iris her part of the plan, tell her to severely tie her up and lock her into her room, so that when Misty channels Dahlia, Dahlia is around but ultimately can't do anything since she's incapacitated.
But nobody thought of that.

Well, the original plan was that Misty channeled Dahlia and Godot restrained her (Of course he had to do it himself in order to redeem for not being able to save Mia.). It's the best solution? Definetly not. Could have worked? Yes.

Quote:
Godot flat out admits he never actually cared to save Maya. He just wanted revenge on the woman who destroyed his life. After all, he flat out admits that, despite knowing in his head that it was Misty in front of him (at least, her body), he still freaking stabbed her. And that, even if it had been Pearl, he still would've fought with all he had because all he saw was Dahlia.

No. He admits that he's not sure if, the moment he stabbed Misty, he was thinking of proctecting Maya or he was thinking of getting revenge on Dahlia. They kind of leave it open for the player's interpretation. And then they try hard to convince us that it was the former. Anyway, the original plan was saving Maya, not killing Dahlia.
sumguy28 wrote:
Why would anyone's hidden identity matter if their daughter's/cousin's life is on the line?

I just wanted to point out that there's a reason why they didn't tell them. Maybe not a good reason, but a reason. It's very different from just not thinking of it or doing it just because they're told to. Besides, it's not like not telling them would kill them directly. They probably thought that the plan was going to work just fine. And actually both Maya and Pearl survived and Misty's death was an outcome that they had considered, so you could say that their plan worked. Kinda.
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Quote:
(Of course he had to do it himself in order to redeem for not being able to save Mia.)


Oh, SAVING ANYONE was NEVER. HIS. INTENTION. Godot was intent on getting revenge on that bitch cocksucker Dahlia who ruined his life. Godot admits that he never cared about saving anyone's ass that night.

Quote:
Why would anyone's hidden identity matter if their daughter's/cousin's life is on the line?


Exactly. Not to mention, there's no reason why Maya wouldn't believe Misty. Hello, she had undeniable proof who she was (the talisman) and I'm sure Maya would've listened to what her mother had told her. Heck, if she had, those two might have spent the whole night together to "make up for lost time", Maya would not have left for training (maybe even asking Bikini if she can do it the next day) and maybe even Pearl would not have continued.

C-A
Re: Does phoenix have a relationship with Iris after T&T?Topic%20Title
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I think I'll refuse from replying to things about how stupid or idiotic Iris and/or the plan were, because that's not what I am trying to argue here at all. All I am trying to argue is that Iris was far from weak-willed.

Ucha Nekome wrote:
How does taking the fall for Godot help Maya?

She wasn't taking the fall for Godot. The most definite suspect would've been Maya. Godot knew that, so he did everything to make Maya seem less suspicious... including a cover-up.
The only reason we even came to suspect Godot was through one slip-up in Maya's testimony.

Ucha Nekome wrote:
he still came up with that plan for one reason and one reason alone. To kill Dahlia with his own hands.

No. Did you read the game quotes I posted? He wanted to put Maya in danger so he could save her himself, just to make up for not being able to save Mia.

Ucha Nekome wrote:
So I ask you WHY why would anyone in their right mind go along with it. Iris isn't in her right mind.

I think this is the last time I'll tell you this. Iris didn't know about the full plan, she only said that she had to await Godot's phone call.

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Iris:
That night, after I rang
the lights out bell...

Iris:
I went back to my room.

Iris:
At around 10:30, I received
a call on my cell phone.

Phone:
.........

Phone:
...*beep*...

"There's a problem...
Come to the Inner Temple
right away."

Iris:
I... I got on the snowmobile
and headed for the Inner
Temple.

Iris:
But...!

Phoenix:
The path to the Inner Temple
was cut off... Right?

Iris:
Exactly.

Iris was only supposed to be on standby in her room. It isn't until she got a phone call about the change of plans that she had to spring into action.
If everything had gone completely according to plan, Iris didn't have to do anything.

Ucha Nekome wrote:
Never once did she take the reigns of her own destiny and decide for herself.

What are you basing this on? She was left at Hazakura Temple as a small child and was then raised by Sister Bikini whom she saw as her own mother. She loved it at Hazakura Temple, so why would she 'change her destiny' if she was content with her own life as it was?

Ucha Nekome wrote:
Well there was that one time with Dahlia, but lets be real here, she should have realized how crazy Dahlia was before all this. She has a brain she should learn to use it. The only decision she has ever made for herself is to become a nun and help Bikini.

Now you're just blatantly ignoring and/or trivializing my arguments.
A. Iris co-planned the kidnapping case, but decided on her own that she didn't want to do it after all
B. Iris was determined to take the fall for Maya just to protect the future master of Kurain. Such a strong resolve doesn't come from the weak-willed.
C. Iris was willing to kill her sister and sacrifice her life for Phoenix.
I cannot fathom how you managed to trivialize this.

TheDoctor wrote:
Phoenix would have to come to terms with the fact that his first love was lying to him the entire time and was a completely different person.

I can agree with everything you say. Except maybe this point... If the game quote is any indication, then Phoenix has already come to terms with it.

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Phoenix:
......
I have something to say
to you, too.

Iris:
Y-Yes?

Phoenix:
You really are the person
I always thought you were.

Phoenix:
Even after Dahlia Hawthorne
was found guilty...

Phoenix:
I still believed in you.


CatMuto wrote:
Yes. Bikini says Misty arrived a few days earlier and showed the talisman, proving her identity. I think it's mentioned that Iris was there, too.

Nope, nope. I checked the script, and on both occasions where Bikini mentions the talisman, she never mentioned Iris.

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Bikini:
Mystic Elise graced us with
her presence about a week ago.

Bikini:
When she showed me the
talisman with that mark on
it... Well! I nearly fainted!

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Bikini:
It was about a week ago when
Mystic Elise... No, I mean
Mystic Misty, arrived.

Bikini:
After she showed me the
talisman that proved she was
the Master, she said...

Bikini:
"Someone is trying to destroy
the Kurain Tradition's main
family line."

Bikini:
"I am here to put a stop to
them."


CatMuto wrote:
You mention that but Iris never really mentioned that herself. She says she was willing to do whatever it took to stop her sister... but would she have done it? People say things they'd do all day and ultimately would not do when the situation really arose.

Now you're just bullshitting me, pardon the language. Stop making things up about the script.

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Iris:
If I had found out she
was planning to kill you...

Iris:
...I would have done
whatever was necessary
to stop her.

Iris:
Even if it meant her
life... or mine.


luck wrote:
However, I do think that Iris involvement in the plan was pretty forced. For starters, why does Godot need someone to take the fall if in the end he didn't mind getting caught? And what was Iris supposed to do if the original plan of restraining Dahlia had worked? There must be a reason why she went to the bridge, right? Were they going to do the pendulum thing with Misty alive and channeling Dahlia to keep her as far as posible from Maya or what? But anyway, I think Iris was obeying Misty, rather than Godot. After all, she's the master of kurain and therefore has authority over her.

First of all, thank you. For a moment, I thought I was alone in my point.
You mean, why didn't Godot take the fall for Maya instead of calling Iris to take the fall? I guess at that point, he didn't want to get caught himself yet. It wasn't until the last day in court when Phoenix began the uncover the truth more and more that Godot realized he was an idiot for not consulting Phoenix immediately and thought he deserved the retribution.

Iris had to do nothing at all if everything went according to plan. She was simply backup for if there were any problems. She stayed in her room until she got a phone call that the plan had changed.

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Iris:
That night, after I rang
the lights out bell...

Iris:
I went back to my room.

Iris:
At around 10:30, I received
a call on my cell phone.

Phone:
.........

Phone:
...*beep*...

"There's a problem...
Come to the Inner Temple
right away."

Iris:
I... I got on the snowmobile
and headed for the Inner
Temple.

Iris:
But...!

Phoenix:
The path to the Inner Temple
was cut off... Right?

Iris:
Exactly.


The idea that Iris was following Misty's orders is an interesting one... But it does require that Iris knew who Elise really was, and I haven't seen any real indication for this.

CatMuto wrote:
Godot flat out admits he never actually cared to save Maya. He just wanted revenge on the woman who destroyed his life. After all, he flat out admits that, despite knowing in his head that it was Misty in front of him (at least, her body), he still freaking stabbed her. And that, even if it had been Pearl, he still would've fought with all he had because all he saw was Dahlia.

And no, that was not a drive of the moment thing. This was murder. Not homicide. Not self-defense, not bodily harm with fatal causes. Murder. He willingly planted himself in a place where something dangerous was going to happen and he knew he was willing to do anything to stop things. That is practically a pre-determination for murder.

You've misunderstood Godot here... Godot speaks of two different things.
The first is this...

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Godot:
I suppose...
I wasn't really interested
in saving you at all.

Maya:
Huh...!?

Godot:
I think I was just trying to
salvage what's left of my own
broken soul...

Godot:
I was trying to make up for
the fact that I couldn't save
Mia. Nothing more.

Godot:
That's why I let you walk
right into a situation that
I knew was dangerous.

Godot:
Forgive me...

He explicitly states that he let Maya walk into a dangerous situation just so he could save her like he couldn't save Mia. He didn't plan to exact his revenge...

Spoiler: "3-5 transcript by Xcarvenger"
Godot:
That night, in the darkness
of the garden, when I saw
her silhouette...

Godot:
A part of me must have
known the truth...

Godot:
The truth that it wasn't
really Dahlia Hawthorne
standing there in front of me.

Maya:
...!

Godot:
It could have been Misty
Fey... Or even that little
girl.

Godot:
But I still picked up the
blade... It was like I was
dreaming!

Godot:
I'm not sure exactly what
was going on in my mind
at that point...

It was only later, when he actually saw 'Dahlia' that his blood began to boil and he struck her down. So, yes, it WAS a spur/drive of the moment.
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Quote:
No. Did you read the game quotes I posted? He wanted to put Maya in danger so he could save her himself, just to make up for not being able to save Mia.


Did YOU not read the game script? He admits later that he "never really intended to save Maya". He admits that he didn't have her safety as his actual first goal or priority, otherwise he would've told someone (specifically: Phoenix) about the plan and to preven it properly.

Quote:
C. Iris was willing to kill her sister and sacrifice her life for Phoenix.


I'd like to point out how people constantly say things how they'd do something but ultimately don't when the time comes for it.
Sure Iris SAYS she intended to stop Dahlia at any means if it meant she was gonna harm Phoenix... but where's the proof for that?
Yeah she says she was gonna do that. But again, that's just her verbal testimony. We don't know if we can trust her words.

It's like if I was gonna say "I'd throttle anyone who dares to hurt my mother". Would I actually do that? Maybe, maybe not, we don't know, it would depend on the situation and whether I would be able to do anything. I could end up throttling someone. Or I could end up not throttling someone. It requires a situation where something like that can happen for it to actually have some weight in its words.

Quote:
So, yes, it WAS a spur/drive of the moment.


It was not! Yes, I am speaking from a legal standpoint, but it was not a spur of the moment kill.

C-A
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Quote:
I'd like to point out how people constantly say things how they'd do something but ultimately don't when the time comes for it.
Sure Iris SAYS she intended to stop Dahlia at any means if it meant she was gonna harm Phoenix... but where's the proof for that?
Yeah she says she was gonna do that. But again, that's just her verbal testimony. We don't know if we can trust her words.


I'd like to point out that we have no reason to doubt her words. The writers wanted to convey this information to the audience. Information that implicated Iris was ready and willing to give her life for a cause. If they'd wanted us to doubt her conviction, they could have easily had a scene where she admitted she wasn't sure, or she states privately that she was too afraid to follow through with that.

The evidence stands against you.

If there is reason to doubt Iris, it needs to come from evidence. You don't have any other than your own word, whereas he can quote the script for evidence.
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Thank you. The idea that we can't trust people's words is ridiculous. By this logic, nothing about any character can be proven ever.

CatMuto wrote:
Did YOU not read the game script? He admits later that he "never really intended to save Maya". He admits that he didn't have her safety as his actual first goal or priority, otherwise he would've told someone (specifically: Phoenix) about the plan and to preven it properly.

What!? Come on... You can't just skim over what I said. I used both quotes to show you exactly what Godot had in mind.
Godot speaks of two different instances.
The first is why he made such a convoluted plan instead of directly consulting Phoenix. It was so that Godot himself could personally 'save' Maya to make up for not saving Mia.
The second is when he saw Dahlia before him and he let his rage take over and killed 'Dahlia'.
When Godot said he "never really intended to save Maya", he meant that he didn't prioritize Maya's safety but rather salvaging his own pride. It literally says so in the quote.

CatMuto wrote:
I'd like to point out how people constantly say things how they'd do something but ultimately don't when the time comes for it.
Sure Iris SAYS she intended to stop Dahlia at any means if it meant she was gonna harm Phoenix... but where's the proof for that?
Yeah she says she was gonna do that. But again, that's just her verbal testimony. We don't know if we can trust her words.

Dahlia at least definitely believed Iris was capable of doing this. It's the very reason she never discussed with Iris her plan of killing Phoenix.

CatMuto wrote:
It was not! Yes, I am speaking from a legal standpoint, but it was not a spur of the moment kill.

Care to support this statement other than saying "It was not"?
Also, I didn't even know we were discussing legality here. We were determining whether Godot had revenge in his mind from the beginning or not, regardless of what the law thinks about that.
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Wake me up when you guys reach a conclusion to this. :yogi:
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Quote:
The idea that we can't trust people's words is ridiculous.


I am a very mistrusting person to begin with, so of course I'll doubt nothing but words of a character.

Quote:
Dahlia at least definitely believed Iris was capable of doing this.


Dahlia had a twisted world view, she might suspect MIA of doing something evil.

You know what, I'm not discussing this anymore. I'll freely admit, I don't give a flying crap what you think or what your opinion on this whole thing is. 3-5 is a shit case, Godot is a shit piece of crap of a man who needs to grow up, his plan was stupid, his idea of having lost revenge (when, at the time when he woke up, Dahlia was still alive so he could've at least laughed in her face) is stupid and I'm fucking glad he died, but unfortunately we had to go through a long dumb case for him to finally admit something that was his fault from the start.

And my first post in this entire thread actually gave my opinion on why I do not think Iris or Phoenix have a relationship or WOULD have a relationship unless it's several years down the line.

C-A
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Typical Cat fight:

- Spout opinions like facts
- Have flaws pointed out in theories
- Gradually siphon out 'weaknesses' in her argument by simply not quoting them in retorts allowing them to be forgotten
- Brush off big weaknesses people follow up on with "personal" justification.
- Ragequit with "I don't care what you think, this is how it IS" speech.
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Pierre wrote:
- Ragequit with "I don't care what you think, this is how it IS" speech.


It's a "I don't care, this is MY opinion and I see no reason why I should continue to justify it" speech.

C-A
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I beg your pardon, but your idea of an "opinion" is, uh, unorthodox if the whole Celeste Inpax thing is any indication.

Pierre wrote:
Typical Cat fight:

- Spout opinions like facts
- Have flaws pointed out in theories
- Gradually siphon out 'weaknesses' in her argument by simply not quoting them in retorts allowing them to be forgotten
- Brush off big weaknesses people follow up on with "personal" justification.
- Ragequit with "I don't care what you think, this is how it IS" speech.

Ah, so it wasn't just me who noticed this.
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Nurio wrote:
I beg your pardon, but your idea of an "opinion" is, uh, unorthodox if the whole Celeste Inpax thing is any indication.

Pierre wrote:
Typical Cat fight:

- Spout opinions like facts
- Have flaws pointed out in theories
- Gradually siphon out 'weaknesses' in her argument by simply not quoting them in retorts allowing them to be forgotten
- Brush off big weaknesses people follow up on with "personal" justification.
- Ragequit with "I don't care what you think, this is how it IS" speech.

Ah, so it wasn't just me who noticed this.


Sadly I'd say it's a standard for discussions with Cat.
Though in fairness I think she's trying harder to understand these days.
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ChihiroAyasato wrote:
zachariah Von-Karma wrote:
ChihiroAyasato wrote:
I personally find it frustrating and outrageous how so many people are against Phoenix x Iris.

Why? Because they're all convinced that Phoenix should be with Maya.

Sure, that's fine.

But that's no reason to TONGUE LASH/HATE/DESPISE Phoenix x Iris.

I swear, whenever I bring up the topic, everyone responds with 'GRAAAH!! STUFF IRIS! WE LOVE NICK X MAYA. IRIS CAN JUST GO JUMP OF A CLIFF OR GET HANGED AND DIE LIKE HER SISTER DID!'

Unimpressed, fans.

Unimpressed. :maggy:


Loving the enthusiasm for phoeris (my name for it)
but i agree, besides its more plausible as iris is older than Maya and therefore more suitable to be a girlfriend for him. Plus also, even if it was just nerves, everytime Pearls mentioned anything of emotional feelings like that Maya or Nick would always deny those claims.


That's because Nick x Maya is somewhat canon.

Check the official casebook plz.

I support Maya x Nick more than Iris x Nick.

BUT

I in NO WAY dislike Iris x Nick. :phoenix:



Well said.
Phoenix is always WRIGHT!
You could've seen that from MILES away.
I sure have a LOTTA guts for doing this.
Wow, I almost FEYNTED from all these!
Man, That detective sure is a FOOL to be so BRIGHT!
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Pierre wrote:
ChihiroAyasato wrote:
bijwmoc wrote:
In my opinion, Phoenix thought looking after Maya as he would for some sort of daughter/sister was his responsibility after Mia died, just like Pearl after he got her mother convicted, but that's just my opinion.
Anyway, the Gramarye trial, from what I understood, was, what, two months after Iris's? I doubt much could have happened in-between, other than Phoenix becoming horribly arrogant. Although this IS shipping, so there's no way to be sure.


Personally, I think that AJ is an alternate universe where Phoenix lost the last case of JFA.
He was COMPLETELY out of character throughout the whole damn thing. (even the flashbacks)
And he never mentioned anyone close to him in AJ that was from the trilogy.

Hobo Phoenix: Oh, see this magatama thingy here? I have NO IDEA how I got it!

Me: *headboom* :uramidn:


I'm going to stop you right there Chihiro because you are quite wrong about that point.
While my AJ memory is fuzzy I do recall a certain easter egg.

In his hospital room after the car accident in case 2.
Examine the DVDs.
You'll see they are various 'Samurai' DVDs and maybe a 'Princess' one I forget, possibly spinoffs of the Original Steel Samurai show.
Phoenix comments that a friend keeps sending him them insisting he watches them.

There's your reference.

Plus why would he need to mention the magatama's origin? There's no one around when he uses it to explain it to really and since none of the people he interviews with it comment on it I presume he doesn't need to slam it in their faces to utilise it's power and simply taps it in his pocket or something.

Phoenix has also had a rather grilling haggard time so it's understandable for him to be a bit different.

Also where in the official casebook is PxM canon?


It COULD also be Edgeworth...
Phoenix is always WRIGHT!
You could've seen that from MILES away.
I sure have a LOTTA guts for doing this.
Wow, I almost FEYNTED from all these!
Man, That detective sure is a FOOL to be so BRIGHT!
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I'll accept that there's a slim possibility it could be Edgeworth.

However at this point AA6 exists and has Maya who knows Nick...in a timeline where AJ does exist.

So canon has solved the issue anyway.
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Of course Nick can't have a relationship. Capcom won't let him.
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sumguy28 wrote:
Of course Nick can't have a relationship. Capcom won't let him.

I played 6-DLC. Can confirm this.
Spoiler: just because
Neither he nor Edgeworth apparently have plans to marry. Must be company policy to prevent main characters from getting into a relationship. It's a dangerous job.

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Reznov877 wrote:
It COULD also be Edgeworth...

Edgeworth is obviously the biggest Steel Samurai fan, so it's a possibility... now how did this iris x phoenix thread turn into an edgeworth x steel samurai thread?
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Not stated but I sure wish they did. Feenris forever
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I hope Iris comes back in AA7.

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I like to imagine that T&T was the last game and that they do have a relationship
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Achtung baby :snap:
Feenris will live on!
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Feenris will never die, Frauleiin
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If the franchise ended with T&T then they most likely did. But then AJ came in and practically made Nick a loner
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GS4 AKA Apollo Justice practically ruined Nick's character by bringing in radical changes like him being disbarred or being a poker player
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Why thank you, good sir
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The things Iris did for her Feenie are so cute
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Seriously she needs to come back for the Seventh game
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Seems to be a crazy renaissance in Feenris support lately. Makes me wonder if she shows up or gets a mention in Spirit of Law.
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Apollo Law is doing fine! Iris doesn't show in SoJ. She's not even mentioned, as if forgotten. It just seems to be this new guy on the forums who likes to post all about Feenris because I don't see much attention to the pairing on other sites.
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Loved Feenris for years hahaha
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