She smacks Godot!

Phoenix:
...Aaaaaaaaaah!

Phoenix:
Dusky Bridge...!
It's burning down!
(What the heck happened!?)

Butz:
What are you doing here?

Phoenix:
Aaaaaaaaah!

Butz:
Huh? What is it?
Is it me?

Phoenix:
D-Don't scare me like that,
Larry! I almost had a heart
attack!

Butz:
My name isn't Larry!
It's Laurice!

Phoenix:
Larry, hurry up and call
the police! I'm going to
the Inner Temple!

Butz:
D-Don't be stupid!
The bridge is nothing but a
burning wreck right now!

Phoenix:
Listen to me! There's been
a murder! Here! At Hazakura
Temple!

Butz:
Wha-Whaaaaat!?

Phoenix:
The murderer might have
fled across the bridge!

Phoenix:
I have to make sure
Maya is safe!

Butz:
B-B-But...

Phoenix:
Please! Call the police!
I've got to go!
...Get outta my way, Larry!

Butz:
It-It's too dangerous!
Nick, w-wait!

--------------------------------------------

Phoenix:
(I must have been crazy...)

Phoenix:
(I knew how dangerous it was,
but I still went for it...)

...*crack!*...

Phoenix:
Maya!
Where are you!?
Are you hurt!?

? ? ?:
Come now.
Don't fall apart on me yet.

Phoenix:
(Th-This... No!
This can't be!)

? ? ?:
Now that I have your
attention, Mr. Attorney,

? ? ?:
I have a modest proposal for
you.

? ? ?:
If you do what I require, then
I will return to you your
valuable "item" unharmed.

? ? ?:
...What is this called again
in your fancy lawyer terms?

Phoenix:
..."Kidnapping for ransom"...

? ? ?:
Yes, that's it.

? ? ?:
This is a kidnapping.

Pearl:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Mystic Maya!
Mystic Mayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

Phoenix:
(M-My sight... Everything's
fading away...)

Phoenix:
(Maya... Maya...
Maya's been kidnapped!)

? ? ?:
You there?
Mr. Wright, are you there?

Phoenix:
H-How much!?
How much do you want!?

? ? ?:
Very good, Mr. Attorney.
I'm glad you have such a good
grasp of the situation.

Phoenix:
Hurry up and state your
condition! And then return
Maya –

He crosses the bridge because she ‘might’ be in danger, not even because he knows she ‘is’ in danger. I ALREADY said that of course the bridge scene alone is not ‘proof’ of Phoenix’s romantic love (though it’s proof of love, he’d DIE for her without thinking twice.) . The point is the context. If Iris is to be the ‘canon implied future girlfriend’, opportunities to engineer connections would have been devoted to her in this case to elevate her to that role.

Instead, the writers choose to have a scene implying a HUGE connection of love to Maya consume the spotlight, at the expense of engineering potential connections to Iris. (Don’t say this is invalid because ‘he didn’t know who Iris was then’ the story could have been re-arranged in any way. The Maya scene didn’t’ even have to happen, he could have been put out of action a different way.)

Speculating about whether he ‘maybe’ would have done it for Pearl or Edgeworth is irrelevant. The writers choose to present this and this alone, advance the portrayal of one insanely close relationship here, Phoenix->Maya. They suddenly throw massive evidence of extreme love (romantic or otherwise, it’s irrelevant in terms of bearing on Iris) toward Maya, NOT his re-introduced ‘love interest’, Iris. Then yet again in the trial, it’s Maya who he breaks down utterly over; Maya who he clings with undying belief to; Maya with whom he’s again proved to have a extreme emotional attachment eclipsing all else, again NOT Iris even though she’s the one on trial and would have been in a commanding position to receive greater attention from the writers. Instead the writers just use the case to continually imply Phoenix’s closest attachment is to Maya, which is the opposite of what we’d expect if they’re trying to engineer a framework for a future Phoenix/Iris implied by canon.

Whether or not it’s ‘romantic’ love toward Maya is irrelevant, regardless it is proven to be a far stronger loyalty than anything the writers choose to depict towards Iris. Not the kind of implications you set up for a canon future Phoenix/Iris (though fitting in that I guess arguably Iris’ strongest loyalty was to Dahlia.) The writers are kind enough not to immediately ‘sink the ship’ but it’s never implied as the favoured pairing of canon intention, arguably coming behind Phoenix/Maya, Phoenix/Edgeworth and Phoenix/nobody.


Oh come on, he fell off a BURNING BRIDGE. How about giving him burns, broken bones, concussion, injuries from fall impact which required several days attention to prevent him from attending court etc. a COLD is not what we expect from that kind of accident, yet it’s precisely what we got in 3-1, an obvious link. And just like the poison bottle, various lucky elements have conspired that it’s not fatal.



Nah. the basis of the plot (and Phoenix/Iris, really) is that he thought that Iris might be his girlfriend from pre-trial 3-1 (and he always maintained evil twin Dahlia was some kind of fake, he even tells Mia this after the trial). And when Dahlia is revealed as Dahlia, it’s obvious that Iris was the girlfriend he really knew at least some of the time. Only final confirmation and revealing the extent it was Iris and not Dahlia in the relationship is required.

Why should he believe Iris anyway? Because he always did believe in Iris, that’s the point of Phoenix/Iris. Most importantly, why exactly are the writers choosing to depict some extreme psychological breakdown over Maya and further emphasise their attachment?. It’s not like he had them in other cases. They could have used the time to establish attachment to Iris, if they were setting her up as ‘future girlfriend’.


I thought this topic was about Iris… Throughout the games, a steadily building emotional attachment is engineered by the writers between Phoenix and Maya. Is he ‘in love’ in 2-2? Of course not. Are things moving steadily into a more intense emotional intertwinement that just increases throughout the whole of the series and is implied by canon as moving closer to a romantic direction? Why, yes it is. Phoenix and Maya are not actively engaged in a ‘romantic relationship’ in game 2 or 3. However, abundant evidence is supplied to (arguably deliberately) imply the potential for future Phoenix/Maya romance. The canon begins to imply this in game 2. And nothing is ever generated to deny this potential.


I could address all these individually if you really want, but this is too long so I state:

Game 1 did not set up more than a friendship between Phoenix and Maya, however in game 2 the writers deliberately set up the CONCEPT of future romance between Phoenix and Maya as a plausible, reasonable, beneficial and relevant scenario to both characters. This is NOT framed in a ‘can only ever be siblings’ bond, undertones of potential for romance in the relationship are expressed by the writers. (A big deal is made by the writers of setting up the fact Maya is now an adult with her own reputation in occult circles, she stays with Phoenix because she likes him, not because she has nowhere else to go, and the potential for a romantic edge to their relationship is established by the writers.)



Phoenix could have turned on Engarde and indicted him in court, at any time after Engarde explicitly admitted his guilt. Instead, he still doggedly perseveres in stalling, even after Maya told him to get the guilty verdict. The stalling isn’t just over the ‘evidence’ it’s also to give time for the police to ‘find Maya.’

The scenario if the evidence hadn’t arrived and he couldn’t get Engarde guilty and save Maya is irrelevant; it’s the sheer extent he went to in potentially destroying his reputation, career, morals and ethics. He was willing to put all these on the line for days on end, driven to the brink - something he would not have carried out for anything beyond a very superficial point for Franziska or even Edgeworth. And he does so even after Maya has demanded he get Engarde guilty instead of saving her (Maya knew it meant her likely death –she tells Pearl to look after Nick after she’s gone.) He didn’t consider only briefly whether or not to ruin all his most fundamental career and moral ethics in favour of saving Maya – it took him days on end driven to the utmost of extreme to even contemplate not to.


Would you risk a ‘miracle never happen’ style ending on your life to save them, violating everything your life and career ever stood for?


NOTHING individual in any game ‘proves’ romance of any couple. There are no canon pairings, only heavily implied ones – and some far more deliberately implied by canon than others.

You’re admitting it now, so obviously part of you can (let’s hope the example isn’t literal.) So, you’re going to deny your love for your grandmother? You love her by virtue of genetic relation and life role since you were born. Phoenix and Maya did not ‘grow up together’, are adults, are not related, and have only known each other ~2years, yet some other insanely strong bond of love has formed, unarguably by 3-5. Can it be quantified as specifically romantic in 2-4? Probably not. Does this mean it cannot evolve further in a romantic direction?

The bond of extreme love between Phoenix and Maya merely increases steadily during the course of the games. Maya complements and supports him in a away that ‘siblings’ really don’t. ‘Cousins’ would be closer (how many older brothers would let their younger sister treat him like Maya does Nick? They’re equals in a curious sort of way.) But what’s more intense chemistry has been established between them. Nothing is ever implied to quash the potential of their canon love developing further to include admitted romantic feelings. All the basis is already excessively and blatantly established in canon, making it an entirely plausible scenario.

It’s an atypical romance and an atypical path to romance, but that’s half the attraction. Stereotypes and Mary Sues are boring.

Not it’s not ‘canon’ but it’s a possibility strongly supported and implied by canon. In contrast, past Phoenix/Iris is canon but future Phoenix/Iris is only ever implied as a very vague possibility. The option to ship Phoenix/Iris is canon, claiming it’s the most likely pair implied by canon is not.


I think you must have forgotten game 1 and 2 then. Phoenix saved Edgeworth when he believed that the Edgeworth he knew as a 9 year old had not really died and he still believed in him as deep down still that person from the class trial, not a murderer or ‘demon prosecutor’. That’s the point of game 1. It’s only after he’s gone to the trouble of saving him and Edgeworth disappears anyway that Phoenix feels betrayed and stops believing in him, because he assumes Edgeworth left over his ‘perfect record’ being destroyed and his belief was in vain. Losing attachment to Edgeworth only occurs after 1-4 (and after 1-5, if we include it, remember 1-5? his attachment to Edgeworth there is still strong and it’s a while after 1-4.)



But it’s not just loyalty. Not only does he believe in her, but the thought that he can’t rationalise an evidence based reason to do so (and she keeps telling him she’s guilty) clearly hurts. A lot. And the intense bond grew in… less than a year together and she’s been away training for many months and hasn’t even seen him? It is unusual to build this type of intense loyalty and attachment so quickly. (Before you object - No of course nobody is trying to claim such an incident is ‘proof of romance’ – but the mutual relationship which is built up and develops further over the course of the trilogy is very, very interesting..)



I wasn’t. Earlier, you kept saying he didn’t even know who Iris was till the end. If they were still in love all this time, why did Phoenix not confess at the opportunity of the court scene or (even more tellingly) in the credits visit. The writers had ample opportunity to do so.



Throughout game 3, for purpose of writing the trios Phoenix-Iris-Dahlia and Mia–Diego-Godot are obviously two sides of the same coin. There are excessive amounts of symbolism and parallels established between them. I have a huge amount of reasoning to back up this assertion – and I’m happy to provide it, but I don’t know how many pages the essay will be….



Iris knew Dahlia wanted to kill Phoenix. That’s why she started the ill-fated bottle retrieval sessions in the first place. She knew Dahlia was going to kill him and hoped that she could get the bottle back instead so she wouldn’t’ ‘have’ to kill him for it. After 6 whole months of not getting the bottle, she must have known Dahlia was losing patience. Iris didn’t know the exact day Dahlia was doing the deed, but she knew it was a time-bomb waiting to go off. Seriously, 6 months? It might have been unexpected after 1 or 2 months but by 6 months she would know Dahlia would imminently lose patience. Him not being killed was contingent on returning the bottle, after all – Dahlia hadn’t said she wouldn’t kill him, only agreed not to if the bottle was retrieved through the non-lethal method. That was the deal they made, not that she wouldn’t kill Phoenix, only that she’d give Iris a chance to try something first – something which it was clear wasn’t going to work.



Private? Iris can tell that Maya is important to Phoenix, right away. If someone is planning to kill her, he’d want to know about it. Or maybe… tell Maya about it? It would be nice to warn her someone might murder her tonight so she can watch her back? Like Godot admits later, the entire thing could have been prevented by telling Phoenix in the first place, he and Iris had colluded over it for a while (of course, it’s not Iris’ fault she didn’t go to Phoenix pre-his arrival at Hazakurain, but she knew about it well in advance and could have told police, Maya or not gone along with the stupid dangerous plan in the first place. Just like in 3-1! Exactly like 3-1 she just goes along with a stupid, dangerous plan with high risk of failing to protect anybody (and someone dies over it both times) without warning those in danger (Phoenix, Maya) and without telling police or other parties which most likely could have prevented the situation. Even the justice system decided Iris’ actions were faulty and puts her in jail.

Where is the proof set up by the writer’s canon that she is still fundamentally relevant to his life now? Relevant enough that even though he has changed and matured from his 3-1 situation, there is a relevance and need for IRIS in this life?

Actually, the writers do choose to give us a depiction of their relationship, as narrated by Phoenix. Even though we never see Iris, how the writers choose to portray their relationship is obviously how the writers desire us to interpret it! And Phoenix’s perceptions of Iris don’t seem to be very grounded in reality, as is evidenced by lines such as:
Phoenix:
What are you SAYING,
Miss Fey!?

Phoenix:
Toilet!?
My perfect little Dollie
doesn't poop!
---
Phoenix:
Mmm! Her mini-omelettes are
magically delicious!
Eheh heh heh.

and the basis for his falling ‘madly in love’ in the first place is under the misapprehension that being given the bottle was a profession of ‘her’ love, which so immediately moved him. (You note even the Judge is immediately seduced by Dahlia to her whims.)

Phoenix:
As soon as I first set eyes
on her, I knew she was the
one for me.

And it was actually Dahlia who he first set eyes on and ‘fell madly in love’, under the context of the poison bottle being a love confession. He was in love with an illusion before he even met Iris.


No it can’t. Say there’s a dangerous precipice where there’s proven that there’s about to be a landslide. I know it’s going to happen.. it might be today, or next week, but it’s guaranteed to happen soon. Oh, this guy who’s in love with me camps day in and day out right where the rocks are imminently going to fall. Every time I visit, I venture pathetically… “Could you maybe move now, please?”

“Why?” queries Boyfriend – but I don’t give a REASON. So he doesn’t. I do this every day for 6 months. He ignores me. (I don’t tell anyone else, or put up preventatives to minimise rock damage, or try any other method to minimise risk)… After 6 months, I turn up one day and… Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies. It’s the rocks’ fault Boyfriend is dead – but it’s entirely my fault that the communication was a failure. It’s my fault I couldn’t succeed in warning him and preventing disaster, not the rock’s.

Maya dying sounds like it would affect him greatly, but I also covered that before… She knew Morgan/Dahlia definitely planned to kill Maya that night, she merely hoped it would be prevented by their risky method.


The point of this is that both relationships are shown as being feasible as a functional and mutually beneficial relationship. Relationships which could work in a romantic context as partners, with complementary personalities and characteristics already proven throughout the games to work as [non-romantic] partners. However, everything we are given by the writers of Phoenix/Iris points to severe dysfunction and failure to communicate or work together on critical issues. They’re in love ‘because they are’, without required personality dynamics or chemistry to demonstrate much partnership beyond this superficiality. And what we are given of them interacting together on anything significant is negative. If the writers wanted to imply functionality in the relationship they had opportunity to do so, but instead they just imply dysfunction, both in the past and present, with lethal consequences.


‘Comic relief’ of an insistence of a (not entirely implausible potential relationship) is a strange type of comic relief to choose for no reason. No, the fantasies themselves are obviously delusional and not to be taken literally, but Pearl is a vector used by the writers to advance certain perspectives and imply certain comments. And what’s being implied by the writers here is very obvious. Pearl isn’t even on the credit screen, so they had no reason other than lack of canon support to choose to ruin what would have been the perfect opportunity to imply the hint of further Phoenix/Iris, not hit it with such a resounding disaffirmation.

Wrong. Maya is the only one proven to exist, there is not evidence, even in Easter Eggs of Iris in game 4. In fact, Maya is the only one of those 3 proven to be in close communication with Phoenix (she’s sent ~100 DVDs, from Steel Samurai series including those from after game 3, and Phoenix feels compelled to writer reports on 'every single episode'’ so it must be the tip of the iceberg of their communication.

I don’t think she would have been in jail very long, Bikini talks about ‘when Iris comes back’ to Hazakurain. A few years, 5 max? Adrian hardly got anything. I don’t think she’s in jail at GS4 time. And aren’t they even less likely to be relevant to each other then? How did the game ever establish that they had some kind of fundamental cosmic relevance of that kind, that they were, say ‘soul mates’? It’s a nice fantasy, so enjoy yourself with it, but it’s unrealistic to say it has any functional support in the actual canon.

In addition, 3-5 was designed as an ending, so whatever is shown in game 4 has no bearing on what the writers chose to imply in 3-5 as Phoenix’s likely future.

No you can’t. Though the official policy is no explicit canon ship for Phoenix, because the writers are well aware of multiple preferred pairings in the fanbase and want an ending which will please everyone, significant canon support was thrown behind pairings other than Iris and not enough canon support was given to present/future Iris to render it as a likely implied ‘canon future girlfriend’ for Phoenix’s ‘happy ending.’

Edgeworth won’t be canon due to controversy. However, unlike Iris, no evidence is ever given to dissuade the Phoenix/Edgeworth reading of game 1 and the writers kindly supply additional hints to support the idea in games 2 and 3 (being overseas doesn’t stop him rushing back in the middle of the night!).

Iris was introduced in the role of ‘past girlfriend’ but next to nothing was done by the writers to develop her status to a game role feasible as ‘future girlfriend.’ Instead, time which could have been devoted to this was spend on articulating the Phoenix-Maya relationship to even greater extremes of attachment. This merely built on the relationship the writers have developed between them over the course of the 3 games. The foundation supporting a potential future romance as totally reasonable and feasible is laid by the canon in abundance, not making it explicitly ‘canon’ is irrelevant. (People are free to DECIDE they want to see it as only ever being ‘familial’… or not.)

However, the necessary foundation was not laid for Phoenix/Iris to make it a natural implied assumption from the canon. Iris would have required more development to bring her to the role of ‘implied canon future girlfriend’ – development the writers chose not to give her.

And of course, Maya is still at Wright and Co with Phoenix, Edgeworth is just a call away… and Iris is in jail.

The entire weight of canon is behind the Phoenix/Maya relationship concept. He loves her intensely, he’d die for her (and she for him – AND THEY PROVE IT), they complement each other like they’ve found their cliched 'other half', he’d do almost anything for her, he mopes and pines without her, she’s his emotional and functional support, he finds her invaluable to him… There’s nothing to imply Phoenix would feel or do any of this for Iris in the present, nor is there the slightest assertion of present romantic feelings or expressed desire to continue the relationship even when the opportunity is specifically given, like in such a scene, or the jail one.

Phoenix actually does show evidence of attraction to Maya. When they first met, she was sightly too young for him to be hitting on her (a big deal is made that she’s an ‘adult’ when she returns in game 2, this is where the subtext begins). In 3-3, all that’s needed is Phoenix to view her slightly out of context:
Phoenix enters Tres Bien, alone, after Maya has begun working there

Maya [offscreen]: Welcome. Bee-avenue
Phoenix: Wow. What a cute voice.
Maya: Oh. It's just you, Nick.
Phoenix: M-Maya! <discomposure!
Maya: Well? How do I look? [in maid costume]
Phoenix: ...
Maybe you should quit being a spirit medium.

In other words, this implies he must think she looks good in it! [Since there's no other way of rationalising away what he said.]

And then Old Seedy Guy doesn’t think Maya’s up to scratch in terms of attractiveness, which just further implies that Phoenix’s taste runs specifically to ‘Maya’.

Here it’s proven: physical attraction developing between them is entirely possible, they are not people who ‘can never find each other physically attractive’. As for Maya? With the way she acts around Phoenix (physical contact, not denying and even playing up idea of romance etc.) she’s broken every rule in the ‘I can never be physically attracted to you’ book. Trust me.

And why in a case ‘supposedly’ designed to establish connections to imply Iris as a ‘happy ending implied canon girlfriend’ was the entire thing overshadowed and spotlight consumed by hurling the sheer extent of Phoenix’s attachment to Maya to previously unprecedented extremes? It’s basically THE climatic moment of the series, Phoenix’s breakdown over MAYA when he thinks she’s dead, obliterating any attention to Iris the writers might have instead chosen to form.