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Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)Topic%20Title

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...The most tragic villain in the series?
Spoiler: Extra tag just in case
IMO, it's tied between Godot and Ini.

Godot, well, it's pretty obvious. His life was ripped to pieces by Dahlia. His love was killed. He wakes up in a severely weakened state...I mean, really, what ISN'T tragic here?

Ini(Mimi) had her only family taken from her and had her reputation destroyed. However, the most tragic part about her only becomes apparent upon beating the case twice....If you play through it twice, on the second playthrough, you really see exactly how tragic she was overall. She constantly pretended to be something she hated because she was forced to. She studied the occult because she was forced to. She was practically forced to kill Turner. Hell, when you look deep, you realize that every moment she was playing the role of ditz, it was probably killing her on the inside, as she was reminded of her dead sister....Most people don't think of her in this light, but, well, she's a pretty tragic character.

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Plus one vote Godot.

Spoiler: T&T
"Hey, you're up. Guess what? The freakish visor covering your deformed eyeballs is the only thing that lets you see after you spent six years in a coma! Your girlfriend got whacked, and... Oh, yeah, the world thinks you're dead."

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Spoiler: PW2
Well, think about Ini's point of view.

She's forced to live in a personal hell every day, not being able to be herself, scared of someone finding out, constantly being reminded of her sister, every moment of every day......I mean, really. =\

But both are tragic.


Spoiler: Others
I would say, though, that some other notable candidates would be Franziska and Adrian, actually.

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o_0

Franzy's no killer.

Plus one vote Viola.

Come on. Blackmail, brain damage, mafia-style crime.
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Well, with Franziska and Adrian, I was thinking more along the lines of just characters rather than villains. >_> Sorry, should have clarified.
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Luke. *Shot for the pun.*
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The Blue Badger.
...Sort of.
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I actually have a vote for Yogi, and if you consider Marshall a villian...
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Acro.

*shot by everyone*

.... and Pearl, of course. She WAS an "accomplice" in a way...
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^ I second on Acro. I felt so much pity for the poor guy.
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Guess. No, really.

Mimi and Yogi are up there as well, though Yogi loses a couple points for killing someone when he didn't really need to do it.
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I second for Yanni. It's pitiful really.
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:acro: Why does everyone hate him????
Spoiler:
I felt so sorry for him, all he wanted was some justice, and to see his brother open his eyes again.


But obviously :godot: wins. Sigh.
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Konkmeister wrote:
:acro: Why does everyone hate him????
Spoiler:
I felt so sorry for him, all he wanted was some justice, and to see his brother open his eyes again.


Justice for what? What happened to Bat was a total accident, and Acro clearly acknowledges it.
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But he still wanted to kill Regina. And even though it was an accident it was still kinda her fault.
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If you count Iris as an accomplice, then I'd say Iris had the worst time (having Phoenix taken away after only 6 months).

But otherwise...Godot wins!
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Spoiler: all of T&T
I'd say probably tie between Godot and Dahlia (Don't shoot! I swear I'll explain!) Godot is pretty obvious. He gets poisoned and sent into a coma for six years only to wake up and discover his lover has been murdered. I agree that his life was not a fun one although that certainly doesn't excuse his actions.
Now for Dahlia. She spent her life basically unloved. Her father took her and her sister away from their home at a young age to spite their mother even though he didn't seem to particularly want them (he leaves Iris- the only person who ever truly loved Dahlia unconditionally- at the temple because having three daughter is simply too much trouble for him after all. He was not the loving father type). There is no evidence that Morgan fought for her daughters. Had she truly been distressed and made any noise about having her children taken from her, then she would at least have gotten visiting rights. Dahlia and Iris didn't have enough spiritual power to be used in Morgan's plans to take back the position of Master, so they didn't really matter to her. Valerie helps Dahlia with her plans, but as far as I can tell she does so for her own benefit and not from any desire to help her step-sister. I can't even imagine being so horribly alone, with no one that she could really turn to and lean on. I suppose its possible that Terry loved her, but by the point she met him, Dahlia had become completely twisted from being so utterly alone in the world. Does any of this excuse her actions? No, of course not. She was an evil and manipulative witch, but she only became that twisted as a result of her circumstances. I loved her as a villain because she is both sympathetic and truly despicable. She didn't ask to grow up in that situation and if the big difference with how Iris and Dahlia turned out is how they were raised after leaving Kurain (as far as we know Iris was dropped off with Bikini pretty shortly after they left), then I would say that Dahlia definitely qualifies as a tragic villain.
In my mind, I qualify Iris as more a victim than a villain, but if we're including her then she is definitely up there. She loved both Dahlia and Phoenix so much and wanted to do what was best for both, but what was best for each of them conflicted in a big way and she is forced to make an almost impossible choice. She tries desperately to protect both of them and by the time she finally makes her choice, its too late and she ends up losing them both.

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I wholeheartedly agree with Mia_Fey. You've really summed up my position on Dahlia's whole situation.
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Yeah, what Mia said. :butzthumbs:

In fact, any time Mia gives a long explanation for something, just assume it's what I would say if I weren't so frustratingly vague and concise.
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Is everyone forgetting that Edgeworth was seen as a villain for the first few cases? He's the most tragic, as I see it.
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Konkmeister wrote:
But he still wanted to kill Regina.


Which is enough of a reason already for me to respect him, IMO.
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I'm amazed I'm the ONLY person who posed Pearl. Because lets face it, she may need it explained to her first (and NO ONE will want to do that), but she was, in theory, an "accomplice" to Morgan's plans, which were to kill Maya, the person Pearl looks up to the most.

And for Acro? He wasn't mad because of Bat dying, it was rather Regina's reaction to it that caused him to seek revenge on her.
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)Topic%20Title

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Wrestlemania wrote:
I'm amazed I'm the ONLY person who posed Pearl. Because lets face it, she may need it explained to her first (and NO ONE will want to do that), but she was, in theory, an "accomplice" to Morgan's plans, which were to kill Maya, the person Pearl looks up to the most.

I actually never posted Pearl because I saw her as a victim more than a villain (very similar to my view of Iris). She had no idea what she was doing wrong and had it been explained to her, she would never have done anything. I usually define a villain as someone who knowingly does bad things despite knowing that they're wrong. The very fact that Pearl would need it explained to her is one of the things that knocks her out of being a villain, in my opinion. Dahlia, Godot, and Acro all knew on some level that what they were doing was wrong, but for various reasons they went ahead with their plans anyway and then took steps to avoid being caught. Pearl doesn't fall into this category. She was being used by Morgan and Dahlia to fulfill their wishes despite the fact that Maya's death would have destroyed Pearl. Morgan and Dahlia are the guilty parties as far as their original plan went. Pearl believed she was doing a very good thing and although she blamed herself for what happened, it really wasn't Pearl's fault. So I tend to classify Pearl as a victim and not really an accomplice (I never classify her as a villain).
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Personally? I also saw her as more of a victim, but she DID commit a crime, much like Adrian Andrews...

And for Iris? She also knew that she was a criminal. It'd be kind've like using Lana Skye or Sal Manella as examples. They KNEW they were doing things, they just had different "mentalities" towards them...

And also, I wonder why no one posted Jean Armstrong or Max Galactica... both of them committed crimes (MUCH different ones...) but still, they did them... and Viola as well.......
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)Topic%20Title

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I forgot a part of my definition before. Let's add that the person has committed a least one heinous crime (murder being the one most seen in the games) to my definition and call it a day. :edgy: I would not consider Lana, Adrian, Sal, or Iris as villains although I would not deny that they committed criminal acts of their own free will and should be punished for those acts. For me though, "villain" is a term on a whole different level, but this is more a matter of semantics now. Besides this is all just my opinion. Perhaps we need a working definition for the thread, so that we're all on the same page here.
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Criminal =/= villian. If we were including every single character in the Phoenix Wright series who did something that would be considered illegal, pretty much the entire cast would be up for nomination. Phoenix has performed unlawful searches, Maya steals knick-knacks, etc.

A villian is, by definition, someone who commits deeds with wicked or self-serving intent. Pearl and Iris clearly don't fall into either of those categories, and to be honest, I'd question whether Godot should really be considered a villian as well.
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If you take Godot's final speech into consideration, he appears to be considered a villain...

So Armstrong also doesn't exactly fit in the category... but this means that Max fits into the category...?

Assault and Battery (for revenge)

I'm not sure if "larceny" is the right word, but he stole and hid Trilo so that he had no "competition" for Regina...
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Franzise, I absolutely agree with you on what you just said except on one point. I would include Godot as a villain. He acknowledges that the best way to protect Maya would have been to talk to Phoenix, but instead he goes ahead and let's things happen so that he can "save" her. He even admits that if his true intention had simply been to protect Maya then he should never have allowed things to progress so far and the best explanation that seems to fit is that he really was doing it so that he could make up for not saving Mia. His reasoning was rather selfish and self-serving in that respect. He wasn't really saving Maya this way, but instead he was putting her in more danger. His reason for doing all this was that he needed to make up for his own failings. In the end, he wasn't really saving anyone, but putting everyone in more danger. His actions were more about making him feel better than saving anyone. At the end of all this, Misty ends up dead. His story may be sad, but I would definitely classify him as a villain.
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I was thinking more of the whole "Maybe I knew, deep down, I was about to kill Elise, and now Dahlia...". But that theory works well too!

I am also glad I can FINALLY read the looong posts ye make, because I have my glasses back since a little while ago. :larry2:
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This is what I get for trying to give Goggles a break. :yuusaku:

I thought he was too blinded by his hatred of Phoenix to realize going to him would have been the best way to avoid all the suffering that took place in 3-5 until after it was too late.

Ehh...he's on the line.
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I still like my theory:

If the magazine was never viewed by Phoenix, he never would've been convinced to accompany Maya and Pearl.

And thus, the solution has been elegantly revealed to me!

.......

Godot and Elise should've made sure that Maya and Pearl never obtained a copy of "Oh! Cult!".
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Didn't Dahlia claim that she convinced her dad to send Iris to Hazakura?
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Pearl would have flipped out about Phoenix not caring about Maya and started slapping the hell out of him until he gave in.

Inigo - I was wondering how long it'd be until I'd see someone ask about that.

Dollie probably just had a fight with Iris and said she didn't want to see her anymore or something, and since their father didn't really want them anyway, he took that as a reason to dump Rissy off at Hazakura. No father who gave a damn about his daughters would abandon one just because the other asked him to do it.
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She might've slapped him, but still, he is pretty adamant when something he KNOWS doesn't involve him, means he has to stay out (3-2 green envelope. He didn't examine it until Atmey told him to). Also, would Pearl and Maya reeeeally know about the place if they never saw the add speaking about it, and the "Special Course", etc.?
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Phoenix has less trouble saying no to Maya since she doesn't physically abuse him.

And, uh, yes, Pearl at least would have known about Hazakura. Morgan told her she had to go there for the plan. The "Special Course" was just extra incentive for Maya.

Also, we should probably start another thread or find a related existing one if we're going to go into this.
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As far as Dahlia's comment goes, there is little that she says which can be taken as face value. She sees herself as being constantly in control and completely self-reliant. People are simply there to be used. Dahlia would never admit that she needed and relied on someone else, particularly to Phoenix, because that would make her seem weak. I can't remember now exactly what she said, but wasn't a part of her rant toward the end how she was disgusted by Phoenix's faith and reliance on people (very like Iris). She believes in herself and relies only on herself or so she would like people to believe. Remember that Dahlia never really had anyone to rely on after Iris left, so its not really shocking that she develops this view point. As a result, if her father had given Iris away against Dahlia's wishes, would she ever have admitted it? Not if I'm reading Dahlia correctly. Saying that losing Iris was not something she wanted would means that she has to admit that she does not always have complete control and acknowledging that it hurt means that she has to confess that she really does need someone to rely on despite her outward demeanor. Dahlia would never concede such a thing as she seems to view this as a major sign of weakness. On top of all that, Dahlia goes through a very complex scheme to get back at her father for "revenge" she tells us. I have trouble believing that she organized all that at such a young age and then made sure things ended with her not returning to her father simply because he ignored her (I don't think Dahlia ever specifies what the revenge was for but I could be wrong or if she does mention it she could be lying about her reasoning since, as I mentioned, she's unlikely to confess to relying on anybody). It makes far more sense if she was getting back at him for giving away her sister.
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Mia_Fey wrote:
Franzise, I absolutely agree with you on what you just said except on one point. I would include Godot as a villain. He acknowledges that the best way to protect Maya would have been to talk to Phoenix, but instead he goes ahead and let's things happen so that he can "save" her. He even admits that if his true intention had simply been to protect Maya then he should never have allowed things to progress so far and the best explanation that seems to fit is that he really was doing it so that he could make up for not saving Mia. His reasoning was rather selfish and self-serving in that respect. He wasn't really saving Maya this way, but instead he was putting her in more danger. His reason for doing all this was that he needed to make up for his own failings. In the end, he wasn't really saving anyone, but putting everyone in more danger. His actions were more about making him feel better than saving anyone. At the end of all this, Misty ends up dead. His story may be sad, but I would definitely classify him as a villain.

I think the question here is whether this hero-complex of his was conscious or unconscious. If his INTENT was to be the hero by putting everyone in danger, that puts him closer to if not right in the middle of "villain" territory. If he only realized he was doing this after the fact, though, I think that pegs him as more of an antihero than a villain.

(Do they clarify this is the game? I don't really remember...)
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She says the kidnapping was to get revenge for the way their father treated their mother. That was when she was pretending to be Iris, though...

Now I'm imagine little Dahlia and Iris being pulled apart at the temple and their father driving off and Iris running after them and Dollie trying to reach for her through the back window and oh god :larry: :larry:
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I agree that it's certainly plausible she was lying.

Alternatively, her father might have been hinting at getting rid of one/both of them and Dahlia, being likely more prone to take the initiative than Iris, could have suggested leaving Iris at the temple in an act of self-preservation. I keep thinking of the bit in The Shining where it explains that, as a child, Jack loved his drunkard father, even though he did cruel things. Dahlia was a frightened child, just taken away from her home, clinging to the one bit of security she had left -- even if he wasn't much of one, he was still her father, and better than braving the great unknown.

And since I've always sort of imagined Dahlia being the outgoing child, and Iris being somewhat shy, I can see Dahlia being protective of her. So in yet another alternate theory, assuming she was already distrustful of Hawthorne, Dahlia could have suggested leaving Iris in an attempt to protect her.

Regardless, I think Iris's departure hurt Dahlia deeply. It may even have contributed to her downward spiral by amplifying the loneliness she felt.
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Iris DID always believe in Dahlia, I think that much is said at the end... and personally? I think Dahlia eventually became more and more insane (There, might as well just admit it already!) overtime from all the events. I mean, she DID say that she hated her mother... so I dunno.
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Sig by Elriel. Avatar taken from a YouTube video of Rawk Hawk's Theme.
Sig changed on December 08, 2008. Avatar changed on December 14, 2008.
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 Board index » Phoenix Wright » Defendant's Lobby » Hazakurain (GS3)

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