No, of course you didn't. I'm just mentioning how this thread is already turning into a raging debate...

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at least they didn't do this

*shudder*


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as for the topic; I WANT EXPLANATIONS. :c
where are maya and pearl? what exactly happened to everybody?
i want all questions answered, be it in aj or pp.
i don't think they can escape doing this, it's what the fans want.

If I remember correctly, Phoenix never actually makes the decision... In fact, I'm pretty sure that it was left up to the player...

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And you have offically missed the entire point of case 2-4.

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Here's a hint- it's not SUPPOSED to be. There's a reason it's called fiction. XD How is a prosecutor literally whipping a judge and defense attorney without being called on contempt of the court? It's fiction, not supposed to be realistic.

I agree, but how do we even get to tell them? It's not like we have contacts for the GS Producer. GS4 was never really designed for anyone who played the PW Trilogy. Arguably I think they were trying to kill off 'old' players' attachment to Phoenix?

I'm beginning to think maybe the best strategy is to both call for Phoenix to get out of the AJ games and get Phoenix and Maya to return in a semi-major capacity to GK aka like Edgeworth in game 2 and 3. (which will HOPEFULLY be a series. If only GK is a success and can support a second game! Unfortunately we have no way to discern this or even if GK will be good. But the target market for GK already included those who miss old chars.)

I agree, the games are fiction, this is nothing like real lawyers or legal systems. Arguably many of the more 'realistic' stuff in GS4 was more boring and the less realistic stuff (MASON System, flashback, inexplicable 'disappearing' chars) was dumber. But hey, if you liked Apollo for whatever reason, good for you, I'm glad some people could enjoy him rather than finding him a generic avatar compared to Phoenix. "My name is Apollo Justice, and I'm fine!" He would have been okay in a game where Phoenix was in a better role/not at all. [I don't want to argue on this one, let's have differing opinions if needed...]

As for the 'decision', I confirm THE PLAYER MAKES IT though regardless of the player's input some event happens next to prolong stuff. And I hate to nag, but that's getting off-topic, which I mention only because a lot of separate topics are ALREADY kindly confined to this thread.

And I wrote something more productive for this thread (keyword: wrote. on paper since I was marooned on train.) hoping to discuss the various fanbase positions on the Phoenix 'vs' Apollo issue and the rationales for and reasons against various possible 'resolutions'. Because hey, I want some kind of resolution, even if it's to only figure out what we should wish from the producers (not that they're likely to listen to us, but it's better than mere fanbase 'civil war' which helps nobody, arguably) so I will post ASAP.

I think it would be interesting plot wise if Gumshoe was made the chief detective.

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The only character I want to come back is Pearl because it'd be interesting to see how they'd write an older version of her. Past that, I don't want to see the whole Kurain storyline coming back because all of the characters important to it (Misty, Morgan, Mia) are dead.

If the writers want to do something with Phoenix, I'd like to see them do something inventive to tell me what the hell happened to Iris. They should find some way to make it relevant to everyone else though.


Write more about Apollo Justice. I don't know enough about him.

It was inevitable. Let's hope this is the last thread. Anyway, further ones on this topic will be locked, I imagine.

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I find it amusing that since the banning of anymore new cast vs. old cast topics that the GS5 forum is basically dead.

Yeah...

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SCENARIOS FOR PHOENIX IN GS5 AND FUTURE GAMES

Instead of making a genuinely separate new Arc for Apollo Justice, writers returned the high status ‘Phoenix Wright’, in a vastly different guise and role, to closely interact with the new Ace Attorney. Reactions to the effect such an action played on the reputation, status and power balance of both Phoenix and Apollo is perhaps the single most divisive issue in the fanbase.

Instead of greater redemption, Phoenix is left in a state of un-resolution (it’s unclear if he’ll ever be a lawyer again, and there seems to be little possibility anything will return to anything resembling his original canon ending of 3-5 and that whatever was taken from him is gone permanently.) Thus his future is still unclear.

People seem to fall into 4 vague categories on this issue:

-It was so insulting to Phoenix’s character to carry out such extremes of life and character assassination on the very character which helped drive the success of the series that they refuse to play or refuse to recognise as canon (unofficially AU)

-People who feel it might have been tolerable to treat Phoenix as such for one game, since said game was already created, but only if Phoenix is given more acceptable redemption of his character (stronger indication that the relationships, dignity, respect, life purpose, ability for empowerment he earned over the course of the trilogy were restored.) Without such redemption, it’s like the entire trilogy was futile, since there’s no meaningful reference to his achievements or intense relationships he formed by virtue of it – things which he should have been able to retain regardless of disbarring but ‘vanished’ from his ‘new’ character model.

- People who hated Phoenix’s portrayal but transferred that resentment to his ‘new’ character, annoyed that the writers took too much spotlight and development off Apollo to effect this character ‘direction’. Phoenix is a lost cause, so they simply want him out by death or whatever means, they don’t care.

- People who simply don’t care about Phoenix’s demotion, insisting that it’s ‘Apollo’s ‘arc’ now, and actually derive satisfaction from the concept of Phoenix being further subordinated and ursuped by Apollo. These people are often vehemently against anything which might improve the status or dignity in any way or move him to a game-level empowerment of anything greater than 4-4. By sheer virtue of the reputation Phoenix continues to carry even after the writers’ assault on his character downgraded by game 4, they fear plans for Apollo might be subverted/scaled down, and instead or merely desiring a genuinely separate Apollo ‘arc’ , they wish the arc to culminate in Apollo asserting ‘absolute dominance’ over the 'remains' of Phoenix’s character (possibly motivated by a sense of injustice that Phoenix drew so much attention in ‘Apollo’s game.’). There’s a sense that Apollo should not merely be a separate lawyer who builds up his own separate character reputation (like Edgeworth), but now he must be the literal ‘replacement’ for Phoenix, displacing his character and legacy effectively entirely from the franchise in the minds of players and the action of the game.

Obviously, most people fall in some kind of continuum in these extremes. The big question is:

HOW CAN FUTURE GAMES PLACATE ALL FANS OF THE SERIES Re: PHOENIX?

First of all, we must concede GS4 was a strange, hybrid game. Apollo and vague (Gramarye) storylines involving him were originally conceived as happening separately from the Phoenix ‘universe’. Though Phoenix was required to be included at a fairly early stage of production, it was not the writers’ original intention to return him at all. 3-5 was intended to be the explicit ending for Phoenix as well as his cast, not a window to Phoenix Wright 4. A policy is strictly adhered to of not returning or referencing characters or events from the previous trilogy even on a conceptual level, except in vague Easter Eggs (with sole exception of the DS-only 1-5, created later as a GS4 pilot.)

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STRATEGIES RE: PHOENIX IF HE APPEARS IN GS5

SCENARIO: Let Phoenix again be a lawyer, even if cases are all off-screen.

RATIONALE: Being a lawyer again is closely tied with our concept of Phoenix’s character in games 1-3. Even if we don’t see or take his cases there’s a sense his character has achieved some (many believe deserved) redemption closer to that in game 3. It’s symbolic to his character of such redemption and we can assume other areas of his life also more closely align to his 3-5 status. It’s also more conceivable that he could play a positive mentor role more akin to Mia, if required.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST:
-Even as only a concept, Phoenix again being a lawyer drastically increases his status in the current ‘game universe’, decreasing any chance of in-game subordination to Apollo.
-Since he turned up in ‘Apollo’s’ arc, there’s the sense Apollo doesn’t even get to be ‘top lawyer’ in his ‘own’ game, which Apollo fans see as a gross injustice.

SCENARIO: Have Phoenix’s involvement in 4-Apollo-centric cases minimal or not at all, then a 5th ‘bonus’ case played as Phoenix as an EXIT STRATEGY for his character from the arc, where his character receives greater redemption.

RATIONALE: Apparently ‘losing’ his close connections with characters such as Maya and Edgeworth is seen by many as both unreasonable and an injustice to Phoenix, especially since no explanation is given. Phoenix could play as a lawyer, or maybe an ‘investigation only’ phase.
The purpose of the case is an exit strategy for his character from the arc, but only after the writers have given conclusive evidence that his character has received a greater level of redemption slightly closer to the ending people feel his character really deserves: meaningful connection with his closest friends from the old arc, a sense of some level of dignity or respect for his character, and the sense of empowerment he was so blatantly lacking and desiring in GS4.

To avoid his new found ‘status’ risking ‘taking over’ Apollo, he then effectively ‘leaves’ the arc. ie either doesn’t appear on-screen or have fundamental interactions in game plot. This gives a more acceptable CLOSURE on his character.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST: -Even one bonus case tacked on the end can be seen as risking Apollo’s status as THE Ace Attorney, even though in this case he will ‘leave’ the Apollo universe.
- Even if Phoenix’s bonus case is conclusively designed as a re-closure, people might demand a Phoenix-centric GS6, in lieu of potential AJ3, making AJ3 less likely.
- People don’t want Phoenix to leave the arc, especially not in any ‘redeemed’ format, as they want Apollo to conclusively become a total ‘replacement’ to Phoenix’s role, not merely a separately respected lawyer who will always be regarded as lower in status than Phoenix.

SCENARIO: Keep Phoenix as a Hobo-Mentor role to Apollo in the arc, not allowing him further status or ‘redemption’ risking a closer alignment with his 3-5 character, as it interferes with Apollo’s status

RATIONALE: The writers had this as their ‘vision’ for Phoenix in game 4 and so, supposedly this is also their vision for him game 5, which they should carry out uncurtailed. If he is the Mia-style mentor in this arc he should stay ‘dead’ and willingly allow Apollo to ‘eclipse’ him in status and relevance.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST:
-Although Mia’s death was an injustice, it was irreversible and she died before we formed significant attachment to her character, furthermore, her ‘spirit’ remains very similar to pre-death personality.
-Arguably, Phoenix suffered a fate far worse than Mia’s literal death- character assassination and his former life (and it seems, relationships) taken from him, rendered in a manner many saw as disrespectful and insulting to his character. (Mia, by contrast, was handled with far greater dignity and respect by the writers.)
-Also, unlike Mia, he is repeatedly show to be ‘frustrated by the disempowerment brought on by his ‘character role death.’ Since, unlike Mia, there’s the entirely plausible possibility of some REVERSAL back to a life slightly closer to 3-5, people find it insulting and unjustified that he must continue to languish in the role of ‘spiritually DEAD mentor.’
-The Phoenix-Apollo mentor relationship was in some ways not a positive one and Apollo was manipulated.

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STRATEGIES RE: MINIMAL/NO PHOENIX IN GS5

SCENARIO: Have Phoenix die

RATIONALE: There would be no chance of Phoenix hogging the spotlight or role from Apollo ever. And Mia died. It would make an Apollo arc like it ‘should’ have been originally.

REASONS AGAINST: People like Phoenix, killing him after arguable character assassination would be the final insult to his character. Phoenix’s role and dynamic was already established as fundamentally different to Mia.

SCENARIO: Have Phoenix leave, somewhere specified or unspecified without detail

RATIONALE: It’s 'cutting losses', but it allows those unhappy with Phoenix’s role in game 4 to largely imagine their own future for his character. This is better for many fans than an even more undesirable future for Phoenix specified onscreen, as it’s unlikely they will give him any redemption at the ‘expense’ of main char Apollo. Could be something vague like ‘Phoenix has gone to live with a friend’ (fans decide themselves who friend is.)

ARGUMENTS AGAINST: People assume this may subvert existing the writers had ‘plans’ involving Phoenix <-> Apollo in GS5. They like the concept of an explicitly ‘proven’ succession as ‘top lawyer’ as they feel Apollo deserved one to a greater extent in GS4.

SCENARIO: Have Phoenix ‘leave' the action of GS5 (largely no references or appearances, vague reference to being father to Trucy off-screen?) but use the platform of the potential GK ‘series’ to provide some attention or redemption for his character, either set pre or post game 4. This would include re-affirming his relationships with close friends (Maya, Edgeworth) and possible other rectification.

RATIONALE: GK is already conceived with a target audience including ‘those who miss characters from the old arc.’ Precedent is already set in that chars from that arc are returning. Unlike claims in GS4-5 that showing continued connections between Phoenix and Maya/Edgeworth would be irrelevant, the very people who would have missed such relationships are part of the key target market for GK. It’s already fanservice, so it is not unreasonable to call for further attention to Phoenix in this game.

REASONS AGAINST: GK might be only game in ‘series’; quality and success still unknown. Might be ‘rights’ and ‘losing face’ issues preventing permission to return Phoenix or Maya to that side ‘series’. Risks timeline ‘conflicts’. Even though it’s a sub-series, still improves standing for Phoenix as ‘top lawyer’ over Apollo.

SCENARIO: Declare the Apollo Justice Arc and official alternate scenario/AU/reality. Yes it happened – this is not denial the arc existed. In one reality, Phoenix was disbarred. Much like the ‘bad end of 2-4, in another, separate reality, the scenario happened that Phoenix continued to be a lawyer (little detail required.).

This effectively renders Apollo’s arc genuinely separate, like it was intended to be and arguably should have been originally, and frees all fans to enjoy the new arc whilst retaining the ability of appreciation of the old arc as a satisfactorily completed story (and marketable product), without having to devote any time to ‘rectifying’ Phoenix in the ‘Apollo’ arc or having any risk of Apollo not rising to status of The Ace Attorney with regard to his own universe as Phoenix fans will cease to complain whatever they do to Phoenix. No more fighting between fans over any points in becoming THE Ace Attorney. There is room for only one LAWYER in the universe (‘lawyer’ being conceptual here) so they have been moved to separate ‘realities’ in this particular regard. Precedent set in 2-4, 4-4 multiple reality ends, 1-5 time conflicts, oddities of MASON System.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST:
-Initially sounds INSANE. (I can only point to the series precedents however.)
-Some fans think it means AJ ‘didn’t happen, even in only one version of reality.
-Risks more blatant admission than GK that GS4 so divisively divided fans (but the target market of GS4 was already mainly new players anyway)
-Some fans want Apollo to be THE genuine ‘replacement’ to Phoenix in Past and Future terms in the minds of all series players, and think it’s unfair if this doesn’t happen.


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Well, that seems to be the kind of summary (biased, of course) from all the arguments we've had here. Probably better to look at the 'potential scenarios'.
DISCUSS?

and it's probably better if we try to be 'constructive' instead of starting some unproductive argument, that was kind of why I wrote it

You forgot "To hell with Apollo, AJAA never happened and never will happen. Now back to your regularly scheduled Phoenix Wright series." AKA the "hide the bodies" group, or the "sweep the mess under the rug" group. I propose rendering AJAA an AU, and then making a GS5 that introduces him in the present Phoenix-verse proper, perhaps as an intern or rookie you have to control for a couple cases with Phoenix as help.

Wow, icer, what an incredibly well-thought out and well-written post!!

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First of all, I like that post of yours, icer. That will help the discussion a lot... I hope.



That's about the same as saying that AJ happened in a alternate reality. And it sounds quite insane. One can't "hide the bodies" when you have caused a complete massacre, so to speak. AJ existed, trying to deny the events happened will leave a) a lot of pressure on the writers to clear things out and b) Apollo fans (which exist in a large number) deserting the GS series, rendering AJ a complete failure.

I still say there are some unsolved things from the old trilogy, but they will be forgotten in lieu of the massive holes that are in Apollo's story. I say we keep Hobo-Nick and we keep him in the background, maybe try to work him into GK, maybe not.

The McD

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I'm fine with GS4 being an AU as long as it does not include 1-5. That case is very important to me, and I want it to be canon. ;_;

The AU does not make it any less 'canon' it just means it only happened in one of the timelines.
It would have still happened just not as part of the "Phoenix got to remain a Lawyer" timeline.
And that honestly makes sense to have 1-5 be the splitting off point for the AU, it puts games 2 and 3 in the "Still A Lawyer" timeline, and removes some of the continuity errors from them. Not to mention some of it's themes are more reflected in AJ then in the rest of the series, and it's easy to see Phoenix going down a slightly different path after that case's whole "evidence law" thing.

I'm not saying it was a bad case, I enjoyed it, and it doesn't devalue the case to be put in the other timeline at all, at least that's how I look at it.

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Unless a lot is done in GK, that doesn't solve the problem, merely tries to deny (and accentuates) it.
-The trilogy is still essentially 'gone' as a separate and appreciable story. It's like it 'can't' or 'is not allowed to' exist any more in presence of 'Apollo Arc'.
-People will always continue to WANT proper redemption for Phoenix, even if he's only in the background. Killing his trilogy and character will always be seen as an injustice, both because it's reversible AND was a stupid and destructive decision to start with, benefiting nobody (not even Apollo) beyond superficial sales figures.

Having Phoenix just hang around in a 'dead mentor' role is pretty much the worst case scenario (which worsens with how much he'd forced into this role). In game 4, he's still 'rebelling' against his forced 'death' role, what can the writers do to stop him gaining empowerment and Apollo's spotlight other than invoke worse injustice to suppress him. Unlike Mia, there is the 'threat' he could return to life and take over the spotlight of the game. A different, less negative role might be okay, if it's kept to a bare minimum of interaction with the new cast, but really it would be more dignified for him to just not appear without explanation (precedent: all old chars in GS4) if they can't be bothered to give him back proper association with his old arc.

Declaring it an AU is a good idea, 'assimilating' Apollo into the Phoenix Wright Lawyer Continuity is probably not good from a marketing or fanbase perspective (personally I wouldn't care, but we should be reasonable here.). Compromising the arcs by doing a messy and destructive 'assimilation' of one character and destroying the rest of their game would effectively repeat the 'Phoenix Mistake' on Apollo. This would cause resentment on part of Apollo fans, even if GS4 was declared an AU.
The fact that GS4 was NOT a separate 'series' but one which 'assimilated' and then destructed the previous arc, meaning that basically it's 'gone' as a separate, appreciable story is the worst problem with it (really you have to temporarily forget GS4 existed to enjoy replaying the series, especially since the original ending is so well designed). Instead they should just do what should have happened originally and keep them as separate, marketable properties.

Your idea might have worked as a GS4 concept with Phoenix originally, but it's too late for it now. Apollo fans now envisage Apollo getting to be THE Lawyer (preferably usurping Phoenix, though 'killing' him didn't seem to achieve this yet.).

While I thought 1-5 was a great case (and the writers did a lot better on it than GS4) it's a logical AU point since it is literally the 1.5 'arc' of the series as GS4 pilot, and you will note that there is little meaningful reference to anything in games 2 and 3 in GS4 and does indeed seem to follow a vague timeline like game 1 ->1-5->>>GS4. I don't think the GS4 writers ever took games 2 and 3 into account at all, they based Phoenix's new character model on facets of the one they made for 1-5, which was based by necessity only on game 1. But some other AU could just be declared where the evidence fiasco was prevented after 3-5.

You missed a few scenarios Icer, in my opinion.

SCENARIO: Nick heads up the Jurist System (or some other law thing).
Rationale For- After being exonerated, and the success of the jury system being apparent, Phoenix could become the head of that, or something else. This puts him on a much more agreeable mentor status with Apollo, as well as securing him financially and (crucially) allowing Apollo space to breathe and grow.
Reasons against- Some people consider that even this would not please him, only lawyerness will do for them.
Others hate the Mason system, and this option would lead to more uses of it.

SCENARIO: Nick becomes a Judge
Rationale For- It's in law, gives spotlight to both Phoenix and Apollo and it also fits in with the real world, as Judges are generally picked from former attorneys. This also means Nick has no hold over Apollo, or the case itself
Reasons against- It's generally less likely for a defence attorney to be a judge, compared to a prosecutor
No/Less Udgey

SCENARIO: Nick finds another well paid job that he enjoys.
Rationale For- Nick needs stability one way or another, and it's clear being a pianist is no fun for him. But there are other jobs that he could go for, especially with his good work ethic and CV
Rationale Against- Once again, many people think he should be a lawyer.
It'd have to be a job that was alluded to before, otherwise it's an ass-pull

Also, you forgot one type of person.

-People who trust the developers to do their job, and worry that Capcom listening to the fans will cause things to go wrong. They generally accepted Nick's fall from grace, but want him to better himself again.

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Wow, crowley, what an incredibly enriching addition to the conversation!!


I think the best solution for the old cast is a tragic-yet-well-played airplane crash into a soup kitchen.

There. Problem solved, let's see some Ace Attorney 5.

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Better yet, It could tie in with G. Kenji airplane scenes.

AJ2: Tragedy for all.

I discussed these in one of those other topics (I think it was a reply to you, actually). The Jurist System one seems a bit too difficult to implement, (not only is half the fanbase convinced the MASON system was some kind of literal rigging of the jury system, which would be way more criminal than forging evidence, but he's set the precedent of putting 'impartial' jurists in it. Nobody would trust it). Also, we don't know how or even if the jury will make it to GS5, it was required by Capcom to tie in with the Govt promotion/grant. I assume he's just off-screen when he's not doing this? There wouldn't be much cause to actually show the jury during the game, except if Apollo turns up to try and brainwash them.

With another job, unless it's something with similar properties to lawyer (eg. unspecified job in legal reform, maybe given by Edgeworth) where it's demonstrated he has the empowerment to help people in a similar manner, then it's still just unacceptable. With either scenario, it's best that involvement and screen time with new cast is kept minimal. For minimal involvement, this is similar to 'leaves' and with lots of involvement with new cast, it's still 'hobo mentor'.

Udgey acts dumb and I'd find it unrealistic. Judges are old and have risen high up the ranks over many years, surely the GS legal system isn't that different. But it's better than some other scenarios.

Hmm.. that's probably a mid-range thing.

The developers have lots of other people they have to 'listen' to. Phoenix's return was no doubt demanded by the marketing department, as a hook to make old fans play, since the developers were planning a genuine separate arc largely targeted at new players. It's Capcom/Capcom marketing which was at fault here but the writers' fault for returning Phoenix the way they did. (I have no idea if the marketing department was motivated by actual fan input, I think they just decided it would lure old fans, and I doubt any old fans demanded a Phoenix like in GS4.) Also, the writers have written themselves into a very difficult position here. And 'listening to fans' won't necessarily make 'things go wrong'. 3-5 is regarded as a great case and it included lots of fanservice. (Also, if we can have a decent discussion here, maybe we can figure out the kind of things we should be asking for, instead of ill-fated demands which will make things worse.)

Just wondering what you do think of some kind of split re: Phoenix, like a dual reality AU or taking him to the non-existing 'GK series'? I'd much prefer him to get proper resolution in GS5 but Apollo fans don't want that and it really does seem to have split the fanbase into two separate and incompatible markets re: Phoenix/Apollo, but people will be fine if they are in separate games/AUs again and even buy both.


...
I forgive you, because you quoted my insanity in your sig (!)

I'm sorry. I just wanted to compliment Icer's post and say that I liked it. I know that you're mocking me, but I'm sorry for making you upset.

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^Awww, well I appreciated your post

I actually think my idea would be a good compromise. You please your Phoenix fans by making AJ non-canon, and his actions there thus irrelevant, and please your Apollo fans by keeping him in. Maybe even have the last case be a version of the case where Phoenix used forged evidence, but with a decidedly better outcome- perhaps even due to Apollo noticing something, like perhaps the edge tears not lining up correctly. Again, just ideas.

Crowley, if there's something I've learned from the internet, is that you really don't need to apologize for yourself. I mocked you for a laugh, and I got it. If you think I'm upset, well, you're wrong.


Robbie, that's not that great of an idea.

Because, if it's non-canon, then why the fuck did I just waste $40 buying the game and beating it? To have the next game say "lol, it didn't matter, lol!"
Since we're seeing a bunch of the returning cast show up in Perfect Prosecutor, I suspect that even more of the good ol' cast will show up in spin-off games (a game where you play as Maya? Could be true...).

If that is the case, I am perfectly fine with a few casual references to the old crew here and there, maybe even a cameo or two, but am more interested in seeing the new cast mature into the characters I wanted them to be in Apollo Justice.

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Frankly, neither was , or Apollo hijacking the series, but Capcom did it. And now they need to fix it. That's the method I think would best be a happy medium. And hey, at least it didn't happen to 20+ YEARS of backstory (A couple thousand dollars and issues at least), the way we Spidey fans had it. <_<

Look, Capcom knows what they're doing. It's done, I'm afraid. While the future could please PW fans, you can't change the past, I'm sorry to say.

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Yeah, but it would just look like a concession and piss more people off than anything.

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Not the real life past, but fiction is another territory altogether. Retcons- Love 'em or hate 'em, they have their uses, and wallbangers like are the reason they were invented.

So, you're saying they should just scrap the game they've wasted pretending it never happened? I don't think so. I'm 99.9% certain they won't scrap Apollo, but they might bring Nick back. That's what I'd be hoping for, should I be a Nick fan.

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It would make the series infinitely more retarded.

Remember when people wanted to write 1-5 as non-canon?

Same thing. There's no point.

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Yes. Exactly. The same way Superman's done the same thing to get rid of similarly idiotic things like "rebuild-the-Great-Wall-of-China-vision", "super-weaving", and who can forget "super-hypnotism".

I think that seems kinda foolish. If you ask me, I think it will make people more unhappy, like Ing said. Not only would it leave questions unanswered, but it would make no fucking sense.

Let me ask you this: What are the benefits of just scrapping Apollo's arc?

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Completely obliterating the bad taste of Phoenix's "closure." Letting us know they realize they made a big mistake. Enabling further use of Phoenix and his extensive cast of characters we CARE about. And Apollo could easily as a character be given an intro into the Phoenix-verse proper, as described, while seeming far less like "Hey, here's a guy you know and care nothing about. We're going to do bad things to the people you like so we can shove him onto you!"

There are questions unanswered in AJ. Just forgetting it would make no sense, and would piss LOADS of people off, including myself. Plus, what they did to Phoenix was not exactly a bad thing. It may have been very unfortunate for Nick, but it was for plot. The solution is for Phoenix to become a lawyer again and having his golden days back. Apollo Justice happened, end of story, stays like that. Somethings can be bad choices, but we can't just rewrite them, I'm afraid.

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Yes, we CAN. That's my point. Retcons have a bad rep because some people misuse them, but situations like this, where people make major missteps in direction are why they exist!

Look, have you played AJ? I believe you said you hadn't, no? Well, I WOULD before arguing, and you might see how it's not necessary at all! As I said, it would piss FAR more people off than not, so it really is not necessary. At all.

Random: I miss the times when this place had more than just Phoenix vs. Apollo everywhere.

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Robbie's full of shit.

EDIT:

@Dramatica:

It was bound to happen.
Can't say I like the constant battling either, but it will probably be arguments like that until a NEW protagonist is announced, and then everyone will say how much more character Apollo had than this loser wannabe.

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Or how about "Think realistically before you post here?"

Just because you have one of the dumbest reasons (and I really do mean that, it's a stupid reason) to hate Apollo, doesn't mean that anyone's going to listen to what you, "a fan," has to say. I know a lot of you hate Apollo and what happened to Phoenix, but guess what? IT'S GONNA STAY THAT WAY. I'm tired of "WAHH WAHH! PHOENIX IS RUINZED! APOLLO SUX AND IS GENERIC! APOLLO IS NOT PHOENIX, AND THATS WHY HE SUX! APOLLO IS INFERIOR EVEN THOUGH HE HAS ONE GAME TO HIS NAME!!!!!" It's tiring to see this. APOLLO IS THE NEW PROTAGIONIST. FINAL.

And it'd be totally stupid to retcon AJ or make it an AU because some people didn't like it. It'll remain GS4 and always GS4: The sequel to GS3. And I like what they did to Phoenix after Trials and Tribulations. Up until then, Phoenix, despite having some deep character development, was essentially just a no-name hero with a sarcastic attitude. Since we were in his head the entire time of the original trilogy, we didn't see how he came off to other people as much as in AJ. Giving him proper screen time in AJ developed his character just as much to me as the original trilogy. And from a likely perspective which likely resides in Capcom: they're just going to press on.

Next, guess whose going to be in GS5. Come on, come on! Have you come up with an answer? If you guessed "Apollo and friends" you'd most likely be right. If you're one of those "UH, WE DON'T KNOW SINCE APOLLO'S NOT CONFIMRED YET" maybe you need to read this:

You know about common sense, right? That's what I'm using to guess whose going to be in GS5. AJ is NOT a one shot game, no matter how much you hated it. If Phoenix was given his own trilogy, then logically, Apollo would be given one too. It's only fair, after all, since we still don't know too much about the poor guy. He'll be in GS5, alright? It's only logical, and no matter how much you may not like him (or like someone not shown in the will-be-trilogy yet), it'll probably happen.

Now, as for my idea, I see GS5 as a continuation of GS4. Apollo will still be practicing law with Trucy as his sidekick, Phoenix will still be trying to clear his name (which actually got cleared a bit in AJ), and working up to his former glory, and Klavier will be sort of a returning prosecutor, while a new one fills the ropes, you know, the usual AA stuff. I doubt Capcom will change it that much, so that it doesn't fill this statement (after all, they took a big risk with Polly and co. in the first place), besides maybe introducing some inhancements and/or new elements to the series (like the return of profile presenting). After all, this is CAPCOM. The people who really haven't done anything revolutionary with Mega Man in years, and just like spewing out sequel and spin off after sequel and spin off hoping for it all to tie together one day (with the exception of Mega Man X6, which was retconned out of the plot >_>;). I doubt they'd take such a big risk (after all, AJ wasn't a mediocre game with a bad story and bad gameplay and level choices like X6).


EDIT: Robbie, AJ IS NOT A MISTAKE. IT'S A FULL-FLEDGED PART OF THE TIMELINE AND SERIES. GRR.

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