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A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title

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Hello there! Logged in here since an idea about GS5 just couldn't stop boggling my mind. I'll unravel my mind's ideas.

The Jurist System in GK4 will be composed of 3 Patience Bars pretty much like the Judges Bars, each time you make a wrong choice when cross-examining/pressing the witness, it goes down and it will affect the choices made like increasing the penalty and being forced to explain why the testimony contradicts the statements/evidences manually.

Also, the sizes of the Jurist Health Bars will increase or decrease depending on the various events of the court(prosecutor dashes the defenses' evidence or presents damaging statements/evidence/witnesses, the Witnesses' true colors are showing, etc)

There.... Presented the Theory...
Any Objections your honors? :phoenix:
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Lazi Al Knight wrote:
Hello there! Logged in here since an idea about GS5 just couldn't stop boggling my mind. I'll unravel my mind's ideas.

The Jurist System in GK4 will be composed of 3 Patience Bars pretty much like the Judges Bars, each time you make a wrong choice when cross-examining/pressing the witness, it goes down and it will affect the choices made like increasing the penalty and being forced to explain why the testimony contradicts the statements/evidences manually.

Also, the sizes of the Jurist Health Bars will increase or decrease depending on the various events of the court(prosecutor dashes the defenses' evidence or presents damaging statements/evidence/witnesses, the Witnesses' true colors are showing, etc)

There.... Presented the Theory...
Any Objections your honors? :phoenix:


It's a start yeah to how it could be done while keeping the Jurist system in it.
Though now that GS5 is actually happening we should probably consider how they are going to keep the Jurist system in it.

Though I'm not sure having 3 health bars would be good, the penalties would have to be increased exponentially to maintain difficult and I'd feel cheated when it was lowered as a result of nothing I did.

Also most convictions in Ace Attorney universe tend to happen as a result of confession don't they?
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Pierre wrote:
Though now that GS5 is actually happening we should probably consider how they are going to keep the Jurist system in it.


This. Personally I'm not a big fan of the Jurist System, since it takes away the suspense of having to present that climactic piece of evidence that either makes or breaks your case. Hopefully GS5 finds a way to make the Jurist System more interesting.

As for your suggestion, I'm not entirely sure it'll work. I also think that 3 health bars might not be a good idea.
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Explaining your theory manually WOULD be fun, but how exactly would it work? :P


Anyway, my guess is that the Jurist System isn't going to actually change anything. Just make it so that the jury isn't convinced enough to give a "Not Guilty" verdict unless you basically get a confession out of the killer, and everything is just as it was before.
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Bad Player wrote:
Explaining your theory manually WOULD be fun, but how exactly would it work? :P


Anyway, my guess is that the Jurist System isn't going to actually change anything. Just make it so that the jury isn't convinced enough to give a "Not Guilty" verdict unless you basically get a confession out of the killer, and everything is just as it was before.


Seems about right.

Also yeah since the majority of them are confessions then it really doesn't matter so much what the jury think, it's enough to convict unless the jury is just UTTERLY crooked.

Which make make an interesting case+finale case like how

Spoiler: Trials and Tribulations
Dahlia got off with a crime but was convicted chronologically later.

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Re: A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title

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Pierre wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Explaining your theory manually WOULD be fun, but how exactly would it work? :P


Anyway, my guess is that the Jurist System isn't going to actually change anything. Just make it so that the jury isn't convinced enough to give a "Not Guilty" verdict unless you basically get a confession out of the killer, and everything is just as it was before.


Seems about right.

Also yeah since the majority of them are confessions then it really doesn't matter so much what the jury think, it's enough to convict unless the jury is just UTTERLY crooked.

Which make make an interesting case+finale case like how

Spoiler: Trials and Tribulations
Dahlia got off with a crime but was convicted chronologically later.


Hmmm...
The manual explanation of theories would be like the Logic system of Ace Attorney Investigations except you would have to use the evidences and the profiles to make a good theory about the crime.

Either that or the Jurist System will be purely a event, like a WHAM scene or a Shocking Swerve.

But then again, my theory is just a theory.
P.S :I do hope they make both 3DS and a DS games of GS5.
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For the Jurist System to work as a gameplay element, there has to be some sort of interaction with the jury. I'm kinda playing around with this idea for my fan trial where the jury sort of acts as the Judge's eyes. If they see something wrong in the proceedings (or want to give the defense/prosecution a hard time), they'll speak up and let the Judge know about any misconduct. This opens a large window of opportunity for twists in the trial, such as a juror who was previously assumed to have nothing to do with the case at hand suddenly becomes a major player in the events that transpired.

The only problem is that my fan trial is a tribunal of spirits, not an official court system. In court, the jury does not influence the proceedings. They only have to listen and reach a verdict. It's true that the Phoenix Wright series was never supposed to recreate an actual court system, but my idea could have people scratching their heads and make the game more complicated than it needs to be.

So unless there's a section with Jurist Deliberation a la 12 Angry Men (which I don't see happening, seeing as you wouldn't be playing as the protagonist), I'm gonna go with Bad Player's assertion. The most that will change due to the Jurist System is the dialogue at the end of the case/at a Game Over, where instead of handing down a verdict, the Judge will ask the jury if they have reached a verdict.

But that doesn't mean that aforementioned window of opportunity is closed. I still think it would be interesting to have a juror be a surprise witness/the culprit. :godot:
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Little_Thief wrote:
But that doesn't mean that aforementioned window of opportunity is closed. I still think it would be interesting to have a juror be a surprise witness/the culprit. :godot:

The problem is there is a clear conflict of interest if a juror is connected to the incident. (In fact, they explicitly state in 4-4 that a juror isn't allowed to be directly connected.) If it turns out that a juror is related to the incident, then they would probably need to redo the entire trial with a whole new jury.
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Bad Player wrote:
Little_Thief wrote:
But that doesn't mean that aforementioned window of opportunity is closed. I still think it would be interesting to have a juror be a surprise witness/the culprit. :godot:

The problem is there is a clear conflict of interest if a juror is connected to the incident. (In fact, they explicitly state in 4-4 that a juror isn't allowed to be directly connected.) If it turns out that a juror is related to the incident, then they would probably need to redo the entire trial with a whole new jury.


Hmm. Yes, I see how that may be frustrating not only to the player, but to the characters as well. However, I can think of two scenarios where it could work:

1. Someone (perhaps the prosecutor) deliberately plants someone else in the jury to ensure that the defense loses.

2. The juror in question continues to deny their involvement in the case, either honestly (they had no idea they were connected) or falsely (the aforementioned conflict of interest).

Either way, the villain would have to make a convincing argument to not restart the trial with a new jury. It doesn't negate the problem, but instead makes it part of the focus of the case.
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It's a good idea, but probably a bit too complex to actually be implemented in the Ace Attorney series.
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I don't think the Jurist system will even be significantly referenced in GS5.
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They writers most likely will include the jurist system somehow, seeing how they made it such a big deal at the end of AJ. Most likely though, it will be used as another plot device. I do like the idea of having a jury with health bars, however, and mabey we could have some sort of game-play mechanic that effects them. Perhaps something performance related?
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I like the idea of a jury bar, although I don't know if I would make it that complicated. Here's my idea for the Jurist system:

I want the Jurist System to come back, and I think that it probably will. If it doesn't it would completely ruin the impact of Case 4-4. However, I do think it needs to change in order to work:

1. YOU ARE NOT THE JUROR. I think we all can be sure this one will happen. We won't be the Juror/decide the verdict in most cases. (Although doing it again would be interesting and thought provoking if the case wasn't as obviously deserving of a "Not Guilty" as most AA cases are. It could add even more depth and thought to the series.) So basically it will work almost the same way as the judge. And, as is the norm, the Judge still decides what is allowed and not allowed in court.

2. THE PENALTY SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE ALTERED. One thing that didn't work for me in 4-4 was the fact that the Judge can pronounce a guilty verdict. I think the judge shouldn't be allowed to pronounce the defendant guilty. However, in order to still have the game over, I would suggest that they change it to this:

3. WHAT YOU DO STILL AFFECTS THE JURY AND THE CASE. If you change the penalty system, you still need a way to monitor how you're doing with the case. I don't know if anyone else has played it, but Telltale games released a game called Law & Order: Legacies, based on the TV show. In court, there is a "jury bar" which shows how the jury is leaning on the case. The better you do, the more the jury sides with you. If you make mistakes, the jury leans more with the prosecution. I think something like this would work very well for GS5. If your penalty bar runs out, it signals the Jury has a unanimous opinion on the case and in that case the jury can give a verdict early. (which sounds outlandish in regards to real-life court systems, but the 3 day system probably wouldn't have a problem with it lol) The only problem I see with this: If you're this close to a game over (say, one bit of green bar left) and you win the case, why does the jury pronounce a not guilty if most of them aren't leaning towards you.

Sorry about writing all of that, but I figured I might as well tell my whole idea about the system.
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ADA McCoy wrote:
3. WHAT YOU DO STILL AFFECTS THE JURY AND THE CASE. If you change the penalty system, you still need a way to monitor how you're doing with the case. I don't know if anyone else has played it, but Telltale games released a game called Law & Order: Legacies, based on the TV show. In court, there is a "jury bar" which shows how the jury is leaning on the case. The better you do, the more the jury sides with you. If you make mistakes, the jury leans more with the prosecution. I think something like this would work very well for GS5. If your penalty bar runs out, it signals the Jury has a unanimous opinion on the case and in that case the jury can give a verdict early. (which sounds outlandish in regards to real-life court systems, but the 3 day system probably wouldn't have a problem with it lol) The only problem I see with this: If you're this close to a game over (say, one bit of green bar left) and you win the case, why does the jury pronounce a not guilty if most of them aren't leaning towards you.


Well that's because the final act in court results in the criminal breaking down resulting in a confession, or an argument so persuasive it convinces the entire jury at once. This could also apply in reverse so that one-shot answers (that cause a full bar penalty and game over if wrong) could still occur with the Prosecution/witness presenting something so severe that the Jury will be decided if it cannot be rebuked.
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Pft. There's an easy walk around the Jurist system. So easy it becomes a "There when they want it, gone when they don't mechanic"

Remember the whole "3 Day Trial System"? To speed up the legal process. Trials are split into the Pre-Trial and the Real Trial. If a defendant cannot be acquitted within a 3 day trial, the Judge passes his Guilty verdict, and then the defendant is moved on to the lengthly 'real' trial.

Here's where things fit like butter. A Jury can only serve to slow the process down. Thus a Jury is only involved in the large trial and stay out of the speed trials. So far, the only cases where a Jury likely should've been involved would be GS3-3, Byrd's appeal trial. That's really clean.
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Wooster wrote:
Pft. There's an easy walk around the Jurist system. So easy it becomes a "There when they want it, gone when they don't mechanic"

Remember the whole "3 Day Trial System"? To speed up the legal process. Trials are split into the Pre-Trial and the Real Trial. If a defendant cannot be acquitted within a 3 day trial, the Judge passes his Guilty verdict, and then the defendant is moved on to the lengthly 'real' trial.

Here's where things fit like butter. A Jury can only serve to slow the process down. Thus a Jury is only involved in the large trial and stay out of the speed trials. So far, the only cases where a Jury likely should've been involved would be GS3-3, Byrd's appeal trial. That's really clean.


It is, although I would find this slightly upsetting considering the emotional weight of the introduction of the system, considering it's introduced as a new gameplay mechanic.(And the fact that I much prefer the jurist system to the single judge anyway. One thing that has always bugged me about the games is the fact that the judge just throws "guilty"s around and then will switch over to the inevitable "not guilty". I really love the jury idea, but that might stem from my hard-core Law & Order fandom.) It would be a shame not to get to use it in-game.

I think it would be completely acceptable in the story though to not have a jury trial for lesser, non-murder cases, ie. the original mask demask trial. (which might give an excuse for another "non-murder" trial in the series to change things up a bit.)
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I'm not saying the Jury system isn't a good mechanic. But I am saying it should only be used if the story calls for it. (While I feel it has no place in GS1, I've already got something in mind for GS5-5, where the Judge is on trial, and the replacement judge is the guilty party, a la Von Karama. But how do you indict the Judge? Why, that calls for a Jury!

On the other hand, there are a few cases where a Jury not only wouldn't fit, would actually damage the story telling.

GS1-2: Redd White 'owning' the system.
GS2-4 Phoenix fighting the truth.

I say, use the Jury where it fits, skip it where it doesn't. The 3-Day Trial system means that with some half thought out back story they can credibly turn on or off the system on a case by case basis.
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Wooster wrote:
I'm not saying the Jury system isn't a good mechanic. But I am saying it should only be used if the story calls for it. (While I feel it has no place in GS1, I've already got something in mind for GS5-5, where the Judge is on trial, and the replacement judge is the guilty party, a la Von Karama. But how do you indict the Judge? Why, that calls for a Jury!

On the other hand, there are a few cases where a Jury not only wouldn't fit, would actually damage the story telling.

GS1-2: Redd White 'owning' the system.
GS2-4 Phoenix fighting the truth.

I say, use the Jury where it fits, skip it where it doesn't. The 3-Day Trial system means that with some half thought out back story they can credibly turn on or off the system on a case by case basis.


I totally agree that it wouldn't work for those cases. In fact, I think most of the cases in previous games do rely on the tension of the fact that the Judge is the most powerful (and clueless) man in the room. I also think though that the cases will probably be written differently due to the new system, so it would be easier to use it. I know what you mean, though, about now using it if it doesn't lend itself well to the story; In fact, it would be cool to have some variety in trials. I just meant that I don't want it to be a talked-about-but-never-used mechanic.

The judge story sounds cool, and would give the judge some more backstory. I think there was a fan case with a similar story, although I never played it.

While I love the gameplay of the games, AAI showed me that the series could use for the occasional new gameplay mechanic or ability, so I think things like this would benefit. (In fact, I think it would be great if they could somehow sometimes implement AAI's investigaiton style, as during my replay through the games its during the investigation phase that I will sometimes get a bit bored in.)
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ADA McCoy wrote:
Wooster wrote:
I'm not saying the Jury system isn't a good mechanic. But I am saying it should only be used if the story calls for it. (While I feel it has no place in GS1, I've already got something in mind for GS5-5, where the Judge is on trial, and the replacement judge is the guilty party, a la Von Karama. But how do you indict the Judge? Why, that calls for a Jury!

On the other hand, there are a few cases where a Jury not only wouldn't fit, would actually damage the story telling.

GS1-2: Redd White 'owning' the system.
GS2-4 Phoenix fighting the truth.

I say, use the Jury where it fits, skip it where it doesn't. The 3-Day Trial system means that with some half thought out back story they can credibly turn on or off the system on a case by case basis.


I totally agree that it wouldn't work for those cases. In fact, I think most of the cases in previous games do rely on the tension of the fact that the Judge is the most powerful (and clueless) man in the room. I also think though that the cases will probably be written differently due to the new system, so it would be easier to use it. I know what you mean, though, about now using it if it doesn't lend itself well to the story; In fact, it would be cool to have some variety in trials. I just meant that I don't want it to be a talked-about-but-never-used mechanic.

The judge story sounds cool, and would give the judge some more backstory. I think there was a fan case with a similar story, although I never played it.

While I love the gameplay of the games, AAI showed me that the series could use for the occasional new gameplay mechanic or ability, so I think things like this would benefit. (In fact, I think it would be great if they could somehow sometimes implement AAI's investigaiton style, as during my replay through the games its during the investigation phase that I will sometimes get a bit bored in.)


Part of the point of the Jurist system was that it could not be 'owned' as such. That's partially why Kristoph broke down as he realised reason and sense would triumph in court as he lost a lot of his power in the courtroom. I'm not sure, I still think it would end up undermining everything Apollo and Phoenix did if they went back on it as a main mechanic even if it was simply a matter of degrading them to 'real' trials. Besides while the film does so there's nothing to suggest the trials have to be three days in game, sure most of them are solved within that time or so but I'm positive at least one lasts beyond 3 days so for it to suddenly appear would seem odd without explanation or reason considering it's such an unusual system.
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The three day trial limit is mentioned many times in GS1. After that, all the trials lasted 2 days in all proceeding games.
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Wooster wrote:
The three day trial limit is mentioned many times in GS1. After that, all the trials lasted 2 days in all proceeding games.


What is this? I Don't? Er....really? I swear this is just a blank spot in my mind....

*slinks off shamefully*
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Pierre wrote:
Wooster wrote:
The three day trial limit is mentioned many times in GS1. After that, all the trials lasted 2 days in all proceeding games.


What is this? I Don't? Er....really? I swear this is just a blank spot in my mind....

*slinks off shamefully*


It's alright. I always thought it was funny that all the info about trials and the future in general was squeezed into like two text boxes per case. I guess they wanted to focus more on the plot and less on how things have changed. (It also had the benefit of not making you think about it too hard, because the idea that most of our constitutional rights would be altered or denied to that extent is probably the hardest-to-believe part of the games. Makes the spirit medium stuff look like The Weather Channel in terms of normalcy.)
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Did they establish that GS5 will take place after Apollo Justice? I wasn't aware of that. :edgeworth:
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Logic Chess wrote:
Did they establish that GS5 will take place after Apollo Justice? I wasn't aware of that. :edgeworth:

No, that's just an assumption. As far as I know, we still don't know anything about GS5.
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Quote:
[..]being forced to explain why the testimony contradicts the statements/evidences manually.


I would absolutely love that. And I'd like to do that from the very beginning, not decided to accidently-on-purpose screw up, so I can explain why I think everything is wrong and end the cases so much more faster. (Especially ones like 2-1: victim has a broken neck, incapable of writing - case closed. Or 1-3: That photo cannot prove the defendant's guilt at all - mistrial.)

As for the 3 bars, I find that interesting. It would be nice to have a bar that represents how the Jury might be leaning towards the case.
The bar begins generally in the middle, but depending on who the defendant/victim is or how the murder took place, it would vary. For example, a case where the defendant is a known mob boss or something, the Jury would automatically be leaning towards Guilty.

Just a way to show the bad aspects of having a Jury System - you know, people influenced by prejudice, personal opinions, morals, previous relationships, etc... to make the attorney's job to not just prove his client's innocence, but also his ability to persuade the Jury Members.

C-A
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Jozerick wrote:
Logic Chess wrote:
Did they establish that GS5 will take place after Apollo Justice? I wasn't aware of that. :edgeworth:

No, that's just an assumption. As far as I know, we still don't know anything about GS5.

...But now we do!
Yes, GS5 will take place after Apollo Justice. One year after it, to be more precise.
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CatMuto wrote:
Just a way to show the bad aspects of having a Jury System - you know, people influenced by prejudice, personal opinions, morals, previous relationships, etc... to make the attorney's job to not just prove his client's innocence, but also his ability to persuade the Jury Members.

C-A


I've been wondering if maybe the new Emotions game play might have something to do with a jury mechanic. Mind you, I still have no idea how the emotions thing is supposed to work, but it would be interesting if the way a witness reacts on the stand matters because that's something that jury would take interest in.

I know when they talk about court cases on the news there's often a lot of focus on if someone cried, or didn't react, or looked angry, etc. A jury might find emotion more convincing as opposed to the judge who might be interested in contradictions and evidence. Balancing both could be interesting. (Although that'd probably get pretty complicated :-P ).
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Beautiful_Blue wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Just a way to show the bad aspects of having a Jury System - you know, people influenced by prejudice, personal opinions, morals, previous relationships, etc... to make the attorney's job to not just prove his client's innocence, but also his ability to persuade the Jury Members.

C-A


I've been wondering if maybe the new Emotions game play might have something to do with a jury mechanic. Mind you, I still have no idea how the emotions thing is supposed to work, but it would be interesting if the way a witness reacts on the stand matters because that's something that jury would take interest in.

I know when they talk about court cases on the news there's often a lot of focus on if someone cried, or didn't react, or looked angry, etc. A jury might find emotion more convincing as opposed to the judge who might be interested in contradictions and evidence. Balancing both could be interesting. (Although that'd probably get pretty complicated :-P ).



I think it's meant to indicate whether an individual's emotional status matches their testimony, like a less detailed version of Apollo's power.

BECAUSE HE LEARNT A FORM OF IT FROM TRUCY!

Done I've just called exactly the mechanic it will be.
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Re: A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title
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Beautiful_Blue wrote:
I've been wondering if maybe the new Emotions game play might have something to do with a jury mechanic. Mind you, I still have no idea how the emotions thing is supposed to work, but it would be interesting if the way a witness reacts on the stand matters because that's something that jury would take interest in.


Wonder what the Jury will say to all these witnesses who overreact when just a small fib is revealed by Phoenix. Or how they react when people like :april: go to :may: It'd be nice to not have to listen to the Judge going "Oh you obviously lied, but that's okay, you just testify again until the lies sound right." every single time and making me want to go :scratch: on him.
Really, there's a limit to how much stupidity is tolerable or even funny...

C-A
Re: A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title
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Close enough...

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CatMuto wrote:
Beautiful_Blue wrote:
I've been wondering if maybe the new Emotions game play might have something to do with a jury mechanic. Mind you, I still have no idea how the emotions thing is supposed to work, but it would be interesting if the way a witness reacts on the stand matters because that's something that jury would take interest in.


Wonder what the Jury will say to all these witnesses who overreact when just a small fib is revealed by Phoenix. Or how they react when people like :april: go to :may: It'd be nice to not have to listen to the Judge going "Oh you obviously lied, but that's okay, you just testify again until the lies sound right." every single time and making me want to go :scratch: on him.
Really, there's a limit to how much stupidity is tolerable or even funny...

C-A


You look for trouble so much I wonder why you even play this series when it just seems to drive you made with inconsistencies and illogical things.
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Re: A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title
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Not really - although I repeatedly find myself getting into fights with people over stuff they seem to misunderstand about the way I "talk". And I really enjoy the Phoenix games. I am interested in Law and the game is supposed to be entertaining and all, but that doesn't mean that even a mediocre amount of Real-Life Law would make the game incredibly difficult. (Case 1-5 I do not count)

C-A
Re: A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title
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Close enough...

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CatMuto wrote:
Not really - although I repeatedly find myself getting into fights with people over stuff they seem to misunderstand about the way I "talk". And I really enjoy the Phoenix games. I am interested in Law and the game is supposed to be entertaining and all, but that doesn't mean that even a mediocre amount of Real-Life Law would make the game incredibly difficult. (Case 1-5 I do not count)

C-A


If you say so, I just hear you emit more complaints than positives about the game, I wonder if you can really enjoy it with so many niggling problems weighing on you.
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Re: A Crazy Mechanic for GS5Topic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:

If you say so, I just hear you emit more complaints than positives about the game, I wonder if you can really enjoy it with so many niggling problems weighing on you.


Constantly looking for innuendos or subtext amongst all possible things in the games keeps me amused and ignoring the bad parts. Kinda like the horrible linearity of FF XIII.

C-A
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