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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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There's a key flaw in your premise. All of the examples you named? None of them have sequels (except for Other M, but Metroid Fusion was made before that). The reason these series don't have retcons is because there isn't a next game in those series to attempt a retcon (and in the case of Mass Effect 3, there never will be, at least from what I hear). Short of that or the Word of God, at least two of these series are still open for retcon in the next installment, at least to my thinking.

Well, firstly, you're incorrect about Mass Effect, as plans for the game have already been announced, as well as that the main character(obviously) won't be Commander Shepard.

Secondly, there are many more examples that I chose not to list due to spacing and the fact that I was kind of lazy at the time, but, since it's being brought up, here are several other games that were poorly received, not retconned, and had continuations in their franchises afterwards.

Devil May Cry 2: Yes, I know, DMC is being rebooted, but the reboot doesn't seem to have anything to do with DMC2's poor reception/lack of any sort of decent plot line. Why do I say that? Cause 8 years and two more Devil May Cry games passed before the franchise was rebooted. And DMC2 was never retconned.

Mirror's Edge: Mirror's Edge 2 is confirmed, for the record, and the ending to Mirror's Edge sucked, and has yet to be retconned(as well as has existed for a while). ME2 is supposed to build off the ending for ME as well, so, that would seem to suggest that it won't be that way.

Far Cry 2: Had quite possibly one of the suckiest endings for a survival game ever. You don't even get a chance to survive. Malaria just kills you...blah blah, sucks to be you. The end. Far Cry 3? Released, and no signs of retconning for Far Cry 2.

In short, there are far more examples of bad video game plot lines that were not retconned than those that were. While we're on the subject of bad game plot lines, since retconning seems to be such an obvious choice, would you care to list some games that were retconned for story purposes?

(Keep in mind retconning =/= rebooting)

Quote:
Not to mention that your argument is stating that game companies are slow to employ retcons. Apollo Justice was made in 2007. It's now 2012. Are you saying that five years is too short a time to employ a retcon, especially considering that Apollo Justice was supposed to be the last game in the Phoenix Wright series? Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

...five years would generally be considered an ESPECIALLY long time for changing the ending to a series, especially considering that there's already a sequel announced to Apollo Justice that has been confirmed to build off of the ending to Apollo Justice, as in: Ace Attorney 5.

So, no, that argument falls rather flat on its face.

Besides, my point was that the level of outcry over AJ is nowhere near outcry that has come to other video game producers over stories that they've created. Simply put, some people wish to play as the character they know. They don't like it when the character they know is changed in a way they're not used to. They complain when these things happen, as it did in AJ. That's why Phoenix Wright is back for AA5 in the first place.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Besides, my point was that the level of outcry over AJ is nowhere near outcry that has come to other video game producers over stories that they've created. Simply put, some people wish to play as the character they know. They don't like it when the character they know is changed in a way they're not used to. They complain when these things happen, as it did in AJ. That's why Phoenix Wright is back for AA5 in the first place.


That I have no argument with. And the rest of your point is better illustrated with these new examples. I just think that if Capcom is smart, they'll realize that they have more stories to tell with Apollo, and that this kind of thing should not have to be relegated to fanfic writers.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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That I have no argument with. And the rest of your point is better illustrated with these new examples. I just think that if Capcom is smart, they'll realize that they have more stories to tell with Apollo, and that this kind of thing should not have to be relegated to fanfic writers.

I sincerely hope Apollo does get another game, as he definitely deserves it(after all, he was the one who got Phoenix's name cleared in the first place). I just find that unlikely to happen as everyone will cry for "more Phoenix."

Heck, considering the outcry for Maya as well, I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom caved there and threw her back into a role as Phoenix's partner somewhere down the road.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
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That I have no argument with. And the rest of your point is better illustrated with these new examples. I just think that if Capcom is smart, they'll realize that they have more stories to tell with Apollo, and that this kind of thing should not have to be relegated to fanfic writers.

I sincerely hope Apollo does get another game, as he definitely deserves it(after all, he was the one who got Phoenix's name cleared in the first place). I just find that unlikely to happen as everyone will cry for "more Phoenix."

Heck, considering the outcry for Maya as well, I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom caved there and threw her back into a role as Phoenix's partner somewhere down the road.


I find that fear unjustified. GK got a sequel too, despite the problem of people complaining about a lack of Nick. And GK's sales in Japan were actually weaker than AJs, if I remember right... :lana:

I am hoping that Apollo will be given a spin-off for himself as well, and, to be honest, I don't think the chances for that are too bad. With Nick being busy with Kokone, there's even more of an excuse for Apollo to go and do stuff with Trucy while keeping Phoenix off-screen and thus unable from taking the spot-light. *caugh* Who knows, maybe we'll even get a game consisting entirely of Apollo going abroad with Trucy and getting tied up in a greater mystery there. There's tons of potential to be harnessed.

(In the ICQ Chat we once came up with the title "Ace Attorney Anthologies: Apollo Justice" for this concept. We then proceeded to laugh at the overaboundance of "A"s in this title... :yuusaku: )
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title

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Apollo Justice was kind of a mixed bag for me. Although I like the gameplay and certain aspects of the story, I had problems with the main character. :yuusaku: Simply put, he acted too young and rookie-like. Apollo did almost nothing by himself and only won because other people helped him. If a sequel does happen, they should make him more experienced.
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Well, Apollo was a rookie in terms of being a Defense Attorney, after all. So was Phoenix - and that guy kinda got help from tons of people for the majority of three games! Maya, Maya channeling Mia, Pearl channeling Mia, tips and hints from Edgeworth, easy to obtain info from Gumshoe ....

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:objection:
Yeah, that's true. But Phoenix did do some things by himself. What about "Rise From the Ashes?" That case is the longest in the series and he did most of it on his own! :will: Sure he had some help, but not for the majority of it.
Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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I find that fear unjustified. GK got a sequel too, despite the problem of people complaining about a lack of Nick. And GK's sales in Japan were actually weaker than AJs, if I remember right...

It wasn't so much that people were upset at a lack of Phoenix in general, they were upset that Phoenix had been pushed out of the way to make room for Apollo.

With Investigations, you play as a prosecutor, and Phoenix was never a prosecutor, so there's less outcry over that than AJ.

Quite a few people who disliked Apollo(as someone pointed out before) disliked him because of his personality and the way he was portrayed. For example:

Case 1: Apollo does nothing while Phoenix takes over the entire courtroom and single handily convicts Kristoph.

Case 2: Apollo does virtually nothing while Klavier guides him into figuring out who to convict.

Case 3: Apollo actually was kind of cool in this case, but sort of loses it at the end.

Case 4: Phoenix's secret plan takes down Kristoph for good.

Now, as was pointed out before, Phoenix received lots of help as well. But the help in the previous 3 AA games...the help there was so much less pointed and direct(with the exception of the end of 1-2). When Edgeworth bailed you out in 1-3, you still had to figure out what really happened and how things went down. In 1-4, after Larry jumped in, you still had to figure out how many shots were fired, and then prove Von Karma's connection to DL-6. In 1-5, it's nearly all Phoenix while Gant kind of shuts Edgeworth down.

I could go on and use examples from 2-2, 2-3, 2-4, 3-2 and 3-5, but I think the point's fairly clear. Apollo never finishes anything by himself. Either Phoenix or Klavier has to step in and either do it for him or show him what to do.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
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I find that fear unjustified. GK got a sequel too, despite the problem of people complaining about a lack of Nick. And GK's sales in Japan were actually weaker than AJs, if I remember right...

It wasn't so much that people were upset at a lack of Phoenix in general, they were upset that Phoenix had been pushed out of the way to make room for Apollo.


Uhm, but in the end, Apollo didn't even get all that much spotlight. It was still mostly Phoenix' story. In fact, case 1 and 4 were entirely solved by Phoenix. Apollo didn't even get a CHANCE to shine. "Make room for Apollo"? Apollo spent the entire game floating on a tiny log on a sea made of Phoenix and desperately not trying to drown. Hah.

Quote:
With Investigations, you play as a prosecutor, and Phoenix was never a prosecutor, so there's less outcry over that than AJ.


I doubt the profession matters that much. AAI was originally going to star Ema if I may remind you. Last time I looked, Ema was not a prosecutor. So, yeah.

Quote:
Quite a few people who disliked Apollo(as someone pointed out before) disliked him because of his personality and the way he was portrayed. For example:

Case 1: Apollo does nothing while Phoenix takes over the entire courtroom and single handily convicts Kristoph.

Case 2: Apollo does virtually nothing while Klavier guides him into figuring out who to convict.

Case 3: Apollo actually was kind of cool in this case, but sort of loses it at the end.

Case 4: Phoenix's secret plan takes down Kristoph for good.


None of this has anything to do with Apollo's personality. Apollo never asked for any help. In fact, Phoenix asked for more help than Apollo ever did. ("Hey Maya, any luck with Mia?") Apollo did not WANT to be babied. Actually, he even hated it. He expresses resent whenever someone shoves him an answer to a question he wanted to figure out himself (Except when it's Nick in case 1, because Nick is Jesus) and Apollo is even upset at how little far he has come at the end of the game. Apollo's personality has NOTHING to do with how much help he gets. The problem is that he's paired off with Trucy, who, despite her outward persona, is by far the most intelligent (I mean practical intelligence, not theortical intelligence, like Ema's) of the Assistant!Girls that we got until Kokone. Trucy is up to par to Apollo when it comes to deductions, but she's not as easily flustered or hesitant as him, and that's why she often ends up voicing her deductions before he does. Maya was never on the same level of practical intelligence as Phoenix and I think it's obvious that Kay is far from an intellectual match for Edgeworth, so this problem never occured with either of them. The problem's not that Apollo's helpless, the problem is that he's being helped too much.
Had Mia not been killed in 1-1, Phoenix would have comes off exactly the same, trust me. The fact that Trucy has the best attendance-rate of all the assistants in general does saddly not help. (Trucy is almost never absent from Apollo's side after her formal introduction, while Maya spent almost more time kidnapped, in-training or in jail than investigating with Nick and Kay's attendance rate is only around 50%, if you are gracious.)

However, now that Phoenix is busy with work again, all we need is to get Trucy occupied (And that should not be hard to do, given she's a walking target with those Gramayre rights in her pocket), then Apollo can finally, FINALLY do some investigating on his own for once.

Quote:
Apollo never finishes anything by himself. Either Phoenix or Klavier has to step in and either do it for him or show him what to do.


"Has" to step in? Actually, that's not really true. Apollo isn't stupid. If you read his inner monologue, you often realize that he's already come to the same conclusion by the time the clue is handed to him. His problem is that he's hesitant, because he wants to do everything right and is afraid of being "Incorrect" or making a bad mistake. Some fans have even propsed before that he might have "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder", since he's often the only one bothered with really small things that nobody else would pay attention to, and it's heavily hinted in game dialouge that he, unlike Phoenix, is very orderly and clean at home. Due to his compulsatory "perfectionism" (which he likely got from Kristoph), he's too afraid of failure to act with the speed he should act with, and that's his problem. He doesn't dare to take any risks. That's likely why he was paired off with Trucy, a character who constantly takes risks and is not afraid of crossing any lines.

Apollo doesn't miss all his chances to shine because he's too incompetent. He misses them because he's trying too hard to be hyper-compentent, which causes him to be over-careful, which causes him to act too slowly, which causes Trucy and Klavier to constantly get impatient and spell out the answers to him.

Just for one case, remove Phoenix, Trucy and Klavier from Apollo's accute proximity. Then, put pressure on him to act quickly.

I bet my japanese skills that he'd quickly preform way, waaaaay differently.

It's just that the game, saddly, never did give him the chance to do so.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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Uhm, but in the end, Apollo didn't even get all that much spotlight. It was still mostly Phoenix' story. In fact, case 1 and 4 were entirely solved by Phoenix. Apollo didn't even get a CHANCE to shine. "Make room for Apollo"? Apollo spent the entire game floating on a tiny log on a sea made of Phoenix and desperately not trying to drown. Hah.

Which is exactly the point. Phoenix got kicked out of the main character's role, which never gave Apollo a chance to develop any sort of personality. They never gave the fan base a reason to like the new character, so people were upset.

Quote:
I doubt the profession matters that much. AAI was originally going to star Ema if I may remind you. Last time I looked, Ema was not a prosecutor. So, yeah.

I think you're missing the point.

When AJ came out, Phoenix was, in essence, being dumped for Apollo, to put it bluntly. Phoenix had to give up the main character role.

When AAI came out, Phoenix was never intended to be a main character, as you pointed out, it was Ema. So not as many people were upset.

It all has to do with whomever the main character's role is being replaced by.

Quote:
None of this has anything to do with Apollo's personality. Apollo never asked for any help. In fact, Phoenix asked for more help than Apollo ever did. ("Hey Maya, any luck with Mia?") Apollo did not WANT to be babied.

Yes, it does have to do with his personality. It basically portrays him as a skill-less, childish attorney who literally cannot get anything done without the help of others.

It's basically the same reason as to why people were so upset at the characterization of Samus in Metroid: Other M, albeit in that case it was a drastic change of personality in the same person, whereas here its changes in personality from different people.

Quote:
Actually, he even hated it. He expresses resent whenever someone shoves him an answer to a question he wanted to figure out himself

First off, I would like some examples of that, because I can't find any of that anywhere.

Secondly, even if that is true, that doesn't alter his personality one bit. Just cause he hates being incompetent, doesn't mean that he is or isn't.

Quote:
The problem's not that Apollo's helpless, the problem is that he's being helped too much.

Apollo's not helpless? Are you kidding me?

He couldn't have made it through a single case without ridiculous amounts of help from varying sources, which generally consisted of coming from the person who was supposed to be opposing him instead of helping him out. If he had gotten stuck with any prosecutor besides Klavier, he likely would never have won a single case after Turnabout Trump.

Quote:
Had Mia not been killed in 1-1, Phoenix would have comes off exactly the same, trust me.

I disagree. Phoenix(literally, by himself) gave Edgeworth all he could handle without any help from Mia in his second case(obviously, there was the receipt at the end), and took down a corrupt, 40 year old perfect record who rigged every witness and piece of evidence against Phoenix(something that Apollo never had to deal with) completely without Mia as well. Phoenix never had any help from a prosecutor in his first few cases save for the end of 1-3, whereas Klavier was virtually babysitting Apollo through his first three trials.

Apollo, on the other hand, was in very much the same situation as Phoenix after his first trial, except he had a more intelligent assistant. And in the end, he STILL couldn't finish anything off without Klavier's help.

The point here isn't to say Apollo is a fool, or that Phoenix is the only great character, it's that comparing Phoenix's first few cases to Apollo's isn't even a realistic comparison. Phoenix was by far the more impressive attorney, dealing with forged evidence/autopsy reports, rigged witnesses who were told to hide things from the court by the prosecutors, and having to do it all with a much less intelligent assistant(no insult meant towards Maya, but Trucy is a far better thinker).

Quote:
"Has" to step in? Actually, that's not really true. Apollo isn't stupid. If you read his inner monologue, you often realize that he's already come to the same conclusion by the time the clue is handed to him. His problem is that he's hesitant, because he wants to do everything right and is afraid of being "Incorrect" or making a bad mistake. Some fans have even propsed before that he might have "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder", since he's often the only one bothered with really small things that nobody else would pay attention to, and it's heavily hinted in game dialouge that he, unlike Phoenix, is very orderly and clean at home. Due to his compulsatory "perfectionism" (which he likely got from Kristoph), he's too afraid of failure to act with the speed he should act with, and that's his problem. He doesn't dare to take any risks. That's likely why he was paired off with Trucy, a character who constantly takes risks and is not afraid of crossing any lines.

Actually, it's very true. Apollo is completely lost at the end of cases 2, 3, and 4, and at those times is attempting to find anything to throw out there to extend the trials when Klavier steps in. Even when its Trucy intervening, he himself states that "she flipped the case on its head while I was still trying to figure it out."

I'm not saying he's stupid, but he's not at the level that Phoenix was.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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Case 3: Apollo actually was kind of cool in this case, but sort of loses it at the end.


Really? .... my main memories of this case is the Serenade Video and the Hair-Whipping in the final breakdown. What was it that Apollo did that made him cool? Watch somebody die?

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Really, reading most of what you guys argue with, I feel like the real problem is that you're compare Apollo to T&T's Phoenix, who, just for the record, is a very, very different one from AA1's Phoenix.

Playing AJ and AA1 back to back recently, I honestly don't see how Phoenix was that much better than Apollo in the beginning. He constantly misses crucial points (Am I the only one who notices that Edgeworth actually never altered any Autopsy reports in the second case, but that Phoenix just missed a giant contradiction in the version Gumshoe gave him?!), he comes off with so off-the-wall deductions that even his own future self three years later would smack him for it and he often fails to investigate his crime scenes or evidence thoroughly on first go, which later causes him troubles in court. The movie didn't depict him as chronically battling more against the diarray of his own court record moreso than against the prosecution for no reason, you know. The thing that Phoenix has that Apollo doesn't is the ability to quick action (Object first, think later) and the will to cross lines if necessary. Phoenix bluffs whenever he can't come up with anything, while Apollo seems strangely averted to this tactic. Also, I really doubt Apollo would have crossexamined the parrot. He'd have demanded the parrot be made evidence to the case, but he'd not crossexamined it.


TheBlarghMan wrote:
Which is exactly the point. Phoenix got kicked out of the main character's role, which never gave Apollo a chance to develop any sort of personality. They never gave the fan base a reason to like the new character, so people were upset.


That is very true, but I'd argue Apollo *does* have very much of a personality. The thing is, it can barely ever shine because, truly, he wasn't the true protagonist. He was a so-called "Supporting Protagonist"... A side character who just happens to be the narrator. Which is a pity, because Apollo has enough conflicts going on to be very, very good protagonist material (Even moreso than Edgeworth, I'd argue.)

But if people never give him the chance to, he's never gonna be able to show it. That goes in-universe like on the meta-level.



Quote:
I think you're missing the point.

When AJ came out, Phoenix was, in essence, being dumped for Apollo, to put it bluntly. Phoenix had to give up the main character role.

When AAI came out, Phoenix was never intended to be a main character, as you pointed out, it was Ema. So not as many people were upset.

It all has to do with whomever the main character's role is being replaced by.


I think you missed my point too. When AAI came out, there were a lot of people still upset of how Nick was reduced to "Guy in Blue" in Game Dialouge and many said they didn't want a spin-off and would rather have another main game (An, actually, the opinions were pretty split about a main game with *who* that should be. It's not like everybody hates Apollo, you know. Not by far. At least 60% of the Fanbase were not averted to another game with him.).

And still, AAI got made and a sequel.

So, as Edgeworth would say "Your logic doesn't necessarily flow. It is mostly subjective conjuncture."



Quote:
Yes, it does have to do with his personality. It basically portrays him as a skill-less, childish attorney who literally cannot get anything done without the help of others.


I wish I had the time to read through the entire AJ script and point out every point that contradicts the claim that he's portrayed as "Helpless" or childish, but I unfortunately have an exam on monday and have to study. An endeavour like this would cost me an entire day and I could just as well play the entire game again, so I'll refrain from it, but I'll try to argue regardless. :yogi:

"skill-less" He constantly tries to think everything through before he raises an Objection. He never makes any horribly off-the-wall claims without having strong evidence. He seems to know his law very well and does not fret when he sees Mia's law books in the office. They seem to fascinate him, rather than scare, like they did with Nick. Now, he's Skill-less, how...?

"childish" He's constantly the only one noticing when the court turns into Kindergarten and trying to restore some sanity to the discussion. Trucy has to force him to do a lot of the more daring things they do, because, as I already mentioned several times, he does not feel comfortable crossing any lines. He does complain a lot, but that's because he's meant to be a hot-blooded character, which I find quite refreshing a change from Phoenix, who only turned aggrevated when things became personal for him. Hot Blooded =/= Childish. Then, there's the fact that Apollo, in comparision to other characters, cries a lot, but he never cries in-court, only during the recesses when noone but his Defense Team is watching. Now, are you saying only children cry? Is being sensitive really so a bad thing? Yes, Apollo is younger than Phoenix. He's in his early twenties.
But, may I remind you of Phoenix in his early twenties?!

Image

I think next to this Apollo looks almost overly mature for his age. My point stands. Thank you.

(While we're at it, passing the bar exam with 22. Is a feat. Especially when you're as prone to nervousness as Apollo. The only two known Defense Attorney Characters who passed even younger are Kokone Kizuki and Tateyuki Shigaraki, both of with are not even remotely as easily to fluster as Apollo is. Apollo in a test situation would probably be just as close to a "Cardic arrest" as he put it as when he first met Phoenix, and he still passed. So, "skill-less" and childish"? Ahahahah, come again, please.)

"who literally cannot get anything done without the help of others." There are a lot of times, especially during Turnabout Serenade, where Apollo picks up on things nobody else notices and also points them out. He does have quite some moments to shine and, my friends, I found it quite amazing when he actually momentarily turned against Lamiroir when she was actually testifying for Machi, when Trucy said they should just leave the testimoney like this, take the win and be happy. But Apollo actually stood up and said "No, this is not how I want to win this case.". AA1 Phoenix would not have done that. AA1 Phoenix would have tries to let it slide and then have the Prosecution scold him to the face for trying to win with a flawed testimony like that. Same goes for young Mia, by the way.
During Turnabout Serenade, Trucy is far less active than she was in Turnabout Corner, which is a good thing, because most of the deductions Apollo actually makes by himself. The only crucial one that he misses is Lamiroir's blindness, and, if I may remind you, Klavier, too, only figured out because he had much more time to examine the witnesses and Defendant thoroughly. Then, towards the end of the case, Trucy is boarderline clueless and Klavier is stunned because he doesn't want to believe that Daryan, one of his best friends, did it. Apollo does most of the work himself at that time. It's also Apollo, who (with a bit confirmation by the judge) convinced Machi to confess to the smuggling.

If you don't believe me that Apollo did this himself, that Klavier was in denial and that Trucy was clueless, take a little look at this scene:


Quote:
Apollo:
Look at the lyrics sheet,
at the top of the second
verse.

Apollo:
See where it says "Pleasure,
Pleasure..."?

Apollo:
Now listen again!

When you stole away the keys
my heart held on to so tight.

Pleasure...
But a fleeting melody

Judge:
...This is evidence indeed!

Judge:
I believe we are guilty of
making a terrible mistake.

Apollo:
The crime didn't happen
during the third set.

Apollo:
It happened during the second,
during Lamiroir's ballad.

Judge:
If that is true...

Judge:
...then no one on stage during
the second set could have been
the shooter!

Apollo:
Which means that Daryan
Crescend could have done it!

Apollo:
He wasn't on stage for the
second set!

Klavier:
......

Apollo:
Well, Prosecutor Gavin?

Klavier:
...Fascinating.

Apollo:
!

Klavier:
I don't believe I've ever
seen a trial turned around
quite so thoroughly.

Klavier:
...Yet one problem remains.

Judge:
What's that, Prosecutor Gavin?

Klavier:
Herr Forehead's theory does
have a certain kind of logic
to it.

Klavier:
Yet it is entirely based upon
Lamiroir's testimony.

Judge:
Yes? Is there a problem with
that?

Klavier:
Well, it's quite simple,
though it pains me to say it.

Klavier:
What if she is lying to
protect the defendant?

Apollo:
*OBJECTION!*

Apollo:
But you have no proof...!

Klavier:
All I'm saying is that the
truth is as yet unclear.

Klavier:
...Until we hear directly
from the man himself.

Judge:
The man... you don't mean!?

Klavier:
...Yes.

Klavier:
Though he is a friend, and
band member, Daryan Crescend
must take the stand.

Klavier:
I see no other way.

[...]

Trucy:
Apollo!
I can't believe it!

Trucy:
It really happened during
the second act?

Trucy:
A-And right in the middle of
Lamiroir's performance!?

Apollo:
Why she was in that
air vent...

Apollo:
...and that "switch" and the
flaming guitar.

Apollo:
When you link it all together,
that's what you end up with.

???:
...I knew you had what it
took.

Trucy:
Ah... Daddy!

Apollo:
Mr. Wright!



We have Klavier in denial and Trucy surprised at the turn of events herself. Then we have Phoenix, who usually only teases Apollo, actively congratulating him at his efforts. Now tell me again he "can't do anything on his own".

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Actually, he even hated it. He expresses resent whenever someone shoves him an answer to a question he wanted to figure out himself

First off, I would like some examples of that, because I can't find any of that anywhere.


Well, then.

As I said before, I really can't read the entire script right now. What I however do remember is that Apollo was very disappointed at the outcome of "Turnabout Corner". If I may quote?

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Apollo:
(I think he already knew...)

Apollo:
(He'd figured out she was the
killer a while ago...)

Klavier:
Some advice: Now's a good time
to review all you know.

Klavier:
...Everything you've learned
over the last two days.

Apollo:
(He lost... but I didn't
exactly win, either.)

Klavier:
...Hmm? Something the matter,
Herr Forehead?


Is this the reaction of someone who wants all the answers shoved into his hands and doesn't care if his achievements are his own or not? I don't think so.

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Secondly, even if that is true, that doesn't alter his personality one bit. Just cause he hates being incompetent, doesn't mean that he is or isn't.


"Incomptent"? Do you have any proof for that? I bet you that for every single instance that Apollo was "Incompetent", I can find you one where Nick was incompetent in AA1. And I mean the original AA1, "Rise from the Ashes" not counting.


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Had Mia not been killed in 1-1, Phoenix would have comes off exactly the same, trust me.

I disagree. Phoenix(literally, by himself) gave Edgeworth all he could handle without any help from Mia in his second case(obviously, there was the receipt at the end), and took down a corrupt, 40 year old perfect record who rigged every witness and piece of evidence against Phoenix(something that Apollo never had to deal with) completely without Mia as well. Phoenix never had any help from a prosecutor in his first few cases save for the end of 1-3, whereas Klavier was virtually babysitting Apollo through his first three trials.


You just contradicted yourself. Nick would NOT have won "Turnabout Sisters" without Mia's help, as you said yourself. Hadn't she come and given him the final evidence, he'd have lost and there'd not have been a thing he could have done. How is that any different from how Trucy saved the trial in 4-2? I am sensing Phoenix favoritism from your side her, I am sorry. In fact, Phoenix was prone to something in game one that Apollo never fell victim too: Under great pressure, his mind shut down and he'd go into "It's hopeless" mode, until someone snaps him out of it. This almost cost him the trial a few times. While Apollo is very nervous in everything he does, he never really paniced to the point he couldn't think anymore.

And, of course, we are ignoring the fact that in "Turnabout Goodbye"'s case Phoenix already HAD lost the case, technically. TWICE. Only reason he managed to pull through both times? Because the wild cards Maya and Larry caused commotions until Nick found something to argue with. He did NOT take down Von Karma completely on his own. It was a team effort by him, Larry, Maya and even Edgeworth. Oh, and Gumshoe!
On his own, Nick would have crashed and burned.

Also, Nick got never help from Edgeworth throughout the entire game? I would beg to differ, as would she:

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Apollo, on the other hand, was in very much the same situation as Phoenix after his first trial, except he had a more intelligent assistant. And in the end, he STILL couldn't finish anything off without Klavier's help.


There's a difference between "couldn't" and "not being allowed to".
At no point was Apollo really close to losing the case in the ways that Phoenix often was in AA1. At no point did he screw up so badly, the judge's Gavel was already hovering over his client's head.

The situation was much differently. It's not like Apollo couldn't have handled the case on his own. It's just that neither did he get a chance, not was there any need to, because the situation lacked a lot of the "urgency" that "Turnabout Sisters" had. Because, as we will probably all agree, Klavier is a *bit* (understatement) too positive of a character to make "villain" material in any way. He's up there with Post!Developement Edgeworth in kind of morals.

The main problem with Klavier was that they failed to play the "You got my brother into jail and I refuse to believe that he was really guilty, therefore you must be corrupt"-angel. Had they done that, Klavier would have been a much more interesting opponent to face. But that's not a problem with Apollo, that's a problem with Klavier.

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The point here isn't to say Apollo is a fool, or that Phoenix is the only great character, it's that comparing Phoenix's first few cases to Apollo's isn't even a realistic comparison. Phoenix was by far the more impressive attorney, dealing with forged evidence/autopsy reports, rigged witnesses who were told to hide things from the court by the prosecutors, and having to do it all with a much less intelligent assistant(no insult meant towards Maya, but Trucy is a far better thinker).


I'd be repeating myself if I tried to tell you why exactly this isn't absolutely correct, so just look above. Also, even if you say now "The point is not to make Apollo look like a fool", that's exactly what you have been doing the whole post. ^^;

I replayed AJ and AA1 a lot of times, several of them were parallel. I don't understand where you get your idea that Phoenix was that much superior to Apollo from. I agree that he was a bit better, but, well, Mia outright called Nick a "genius" and Nick also had had 2 years more to study law by that time. No wonder he is better at a few things. I really get the impression that you are actually comparing Apollo to the Phoenix of T&T, which is really far from fair, since the Phoenix from T&T is a very experienced attorney. That's like comparing Strawberries to Bananas.

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Actually, it's very true. Apollo is completely lost at the end of cases 2, 3, and 4,


He's lost at the end of 2-2 or 2-3? Come again? If you refering to the tense climaxes where you have to present the final couple of evidence, and your partner or the prosecutor giving you minor hints: Those are there in almost EVERY Ace Attorney Case. That's why they are called "Turnabout Trials", you know. For every moment where Apollo was geniuely "lost" (And I'd argue those weren't as common as you think by far) I can give you one where AA1's Nick was just as lost. It's really just a matter of which character you like better and that doesn't make the other a worse character, you know.

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Even when its Trucy intervening, he himself states that "she flipped the case on its head while I was still trying to figure it out."


As for that moment with Trucy, can I just argue that this line was different in the japanese version? I immediately noticed that when I played the game in japanese, at no point Apollo stated there that he couldn't have figured it out on his own, he was just surprised by the sudden shift in behaviour that Trucy displayed (Which was really a very sharp one in the japanese version, because she usually plays the cutesy-angle up much stronger than in the english version there. Imagine a 7 years old suddenly jumps down from her pony and beginns talking quantum physics to you out of nowhere. That is pretty much the impression japanese Trucy left on me when she voiced her deduction in this scene. It would have been much weirder if Apollo had *not* been shocked in the face of that.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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Also, I really doubt Apollo would have crossexamined the parrot. He'd have demanded the parrot be made evidence to the case, but he'd not crossexamined it.


Which also doesn't make any sense, because in terms of substantial evidence, the parrot was useless .... unless he got GSR on him, but that would only prove that a gun was shot close enough to him that he got residue on him. Which doesn't even count as a good excuse that the crime scene wasn't a boat but the rental shop - after all, a bird, he can fly and be in other places.

I was gonna say, remember that Franziska passed her bar exam at age 13 and Edgeworth at 20, but then I re-read and you were talking about Defense Attorneys, so nyeh. I dunno, it's simply because AJ never gave me that much info about Apollo - what do we know about him?
22, kind of a hot head, goes super for Justice, has a half-sibling ... a-n-n-n-d that's kinda it. AJ was rushed, Apollo became a bland character.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Also, I really doubt Apollo would have crossexamined the parrot. He'd have demanded the parrot be made evidence to the case, but he'd not crossexamined it.


Which also doesn't make any sense, because in terms of substantial evidence, the parrot was useless .... unless he got GSR on him, but that would only prove that a gun was shot close enough to him that he got residue on him. Which doesn't even count as a good excuse that the crime scene wasn't a boat but the rental shop - after all, a bird, he can fly and be in other places.


I'd never claim it would have been better had the parrot not been crossexamined, I just said this would not have been a method Apollo would have used. I still don't think he'd have done worse than Nick on the case. He's different, but not dumber. He would have approached the case very differently from the very beginning and the need to crossexamine the parrot might not have come up at all. (Had it, though, he'd either have had Trucy force him to do it or been very screwed, I admit that.)

Oh, but I have to object against the Parrot being able to fly. Domestic parrots usually lack this ability, because their wings are clipped soon after birth. They can't really go very far with their wings. It's enough to get on and off the stalk, that's all.

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I was gonna say, remember that Franziska passed her bar exam at age 13 and Edgeworth at 20, but then I re-read and you were talking about Defense Attorneys, so nyeh. I dunno, it's simply because AJ never gave me that much info about Apollo - what do we know about him?
22, kind of a hot head, goes super for Justice, has a half-sibling ... a-n-n-n-d that's kinda it. AJ was rushed, Apollo became a bland character.

C-A


I don't find Apollo bland. He was underdeveloped, yes, but not bland. He has some very strong, noticable character traits, but he never really is put into any crucial situations where they could shine nicely. As I said, he's a supporting protagonist and that hurt his development. A lot.

So yeah, AJ was rushed. Apollo being bland? Eh, not really. He's not anymore "bland" than Kay is by the end of AAI, and she's not exactly "bland" either, just not very well used as a character. And that's why I exactly think Apollo is. Not very well used as a character. He has a lot of potential there, they just didn't really give him much of a chance.
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Re: Will Apollo ever get another game?Topic%20Title
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Really, reading most of what you guys argue with, I feel like the real problem is that you're compare Apollo to T&T's Phoenix, who, just for the record, is a very, very different one from AA1's Phoenix.

Since we're doing that so much, perhaps you can point out a few instances in my replies where I've used anything besides AA1 Phoenix as a comparison.

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(Am I the only one who notices that Edgeworth actually never altered any Autopsy reports in the second case, but that Phoenix just missed a giant contradiction in the version Gumshoe gave him?!)

Er, no, Edgeworth did. He specifically requested "another autopsy report" be done, which you'll notice after the first Gumshoe cross examination. Whether or not he forged this is something we will never know for sure, but there was no contradiction missed by Phoenix.

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I think you missed my point too. When AAI came out, there were a lot of people still upset of how Nick was reduced to "Guy in Blue" in Game Dialouge and many said they didn't want a spin-off and would rather have another main game (An, actually, the opinions were pretty split about a main game with *who* that should be. It's not like everybody hates Apollo, you know. Not by far. At least 60% of the Fanbase were not averted to another game with him.).

While the term "lot of people" is, of course, relative, I would invite you to go on the Capcom Unity message board and take a look through some of the topics on both the AAI forums and AJ forums. You will find far more complaints about AJ than you will AAI in that regard.

More people were upset about what happened to Phoenix in AJ than they were AAI.

It's also worth pointing out that AAI actually did sell fairly well in Japan, and only got a sequel in Japan. Where it sold poorly, it did not get a sequel.

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So, as Edgeworth would say "Your logic doesn't necessarily flow. It is mostly subjective conjuncture."

Considering the topic seems to have shifted from whether AJ will get another game to whether Apollo has a good personality, the entire topic IS subjective.

Although there really isn't much conjecture. Not sure where that's coming from.

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"skill-less" He constantly tries to think everything through before he raises an Objection. He never makes any horribly off-the-wall claims without having strong evidence.

...er...no. Just no.

His accusation against Kristoph came without strong evidence. His accusation against Alita came without him knowing that he had the evidence(Klavier had to point it out to him at the end). His accusation against Daryan came without any decisive evidence whatsoever, and the entire case against him was built on conjecture, as Klavier notes before the end. And his second accusation against Kristoph came with him relying on an envelope he had gotten from Phoenix.

So, no, he does that quite a bit.

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"childish" He's constantly the only one noticing when the court turns into Kindergarten and trying to restore some sanity to the discussion.

I assume you have some examples of this.

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Now, are you saying only children cry? Is being sensitive really so a bad thing? Yes, Apollo is younger than Phoenix. He's in his early twenties.

I have a new friend I'd like you to meet. His name is Mr. Straw Man.

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(While we're at it, passing the bar exam with 22. Is a feat. Especially when you're as prone to nervousness as Apollo. The only two known Defense Attorney Characters who passed even younger are Kokone Kizuki and Tateyuki Shigaraki

In comparison to what, exactly? We only know the dates of passing the bar test of two defense attorneys in the entire series, and while we can guess with Phoenix that he got it sometime around 23 years old, keep in mind he had to redirect his entire college career from studying art to studying law, and still got it only 1 year afterwards.

In short, the bar exam age doesn't really seem to be all that impressive in AA land.

Anyways, your next point is far too long to mention, so I'll keep it short. I said that Apollo looked good in case 3. I conceded that. I'm not saying he looks like a failure throughout. But I'm comparing the game as a whole, not on one scene of the game.

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Is this the reaction of someone who wants all the answers shoved into his hands and doesn't care if his achievements are his own or not? I don't think so.

Allow me to return the quote favor.

"Can you stop insinuating things and just tell me them?"
-Apollo to Phoenix, Case 2, Investigation Day 1.

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"Incomptent"? Do you have any proof for that? I bet you that for every single instance that Apollo was "Incompetent", I can find you one where Nick was incompetent in AA1. And I mean the original AA1, "Rise from the Ashes" not counting.

At the moment, I don't have anywhere near the time to do this, but I'll keep a record and get it posted sometime.

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You just contradicted yourself. Nick would NOT have won "Turnabout Sisters" without Mia's help, as you said yourself. Hadn't she come and given him the final evidence, he'd have lost and there'd not have been a thing he could have done. How is that any different from how Trucy saved the trial in 4-2? I am sensing Phoenix favoritism from your side her, I am sorry.

Allow me to repeat myself, then, since you missed it.

I'm not saying Phoenix never gets help. I'm saying the degree of help he receives is significantly less than Apollo.

Case 1: Mia helps him once.
Case 2: Mia helps him once.
Case 3: Edgeworth helps him once.
Case 4: Larry interjects once.

So, in essence, there are four times where Phoenix receives help in trials throughout the first AA game. Now, just compare that to AA case 2 alone.

Trucy flips the case on its head by figuring out where the killer was shot and from where he was standing.
Trucy fakes her own kidnapping in order to stall the trial.
Klavier forces the witness to testify again after Apollo runs out of questions.
Klavier stalls the trial so Apollo can search through the evidence and find something else.

So, Apollo receives as much help in one case as Phoenix does in the entirety of his first game(not including RftA, just like your requested). So, no, there's no favoritism, just simple comparison.

I already said I would like another game with Apollo where he was expounded upon as a character.
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