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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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This is an interesting questions, especially someone like me who has very specific reasons for disliking many of the filler cases.

(For the record, I liked 1-3 and 4-3, was indifferent on I-3, and hated 2-3 and 3-3).

The problem with the middle cases (as many of you pointed out) is that they often feel like filler and out of place compared to the rest of the cases, which generally revolve around the main plot of the game. So one possibly would be to simply remove them and replace them with a case that further follows the plot.

The problem with that, though, is that those filler cases, like them or not, is part of what makes the PW games so different other in terms of feeling connected to the characters. Each game (specifically the first one) covers a lot of ground compared to most crime/legal games. Because of this, at the end of it you have not only solved the main important story, but also have also had a couple of non-important cases which nevertheless built up character development and makes the characters more endearing. You not only see them in the important things but also living their lives (which since Phoenix makes his living as a lawyer, the filler cases basically are him working every day) so they feel much more real than the characters in, say, a Law and Order game.

Taking this into account, I think the key to getting a better case 3 is making even less connected to the main characters. 1-3 really didn't have anything to do with any of the characters, if I remember correctly. it was just them working, pretty much. I understand why people don't like this case, but that's mainly due to characters' bad logic used in the game rather than the plot itself. I don't think case 2-3 has any personal ties to the characters, but then again I just don't like that case. I know some who do. Case 3-3 is that stupid one where the guy impersonates Phoenix. I mainly dislike it for the stereotypical depiction of Armstrong, but it also has that tie to Phoenix being framed that makes it too much. While I really liked 4-3, it could have easily been done without making the prosecutor a rock star and could have been a separate rocker that got wrapped up into it. And I-3 was too involved in Edgeworth's friend Amano and introducing TWO of the main characters of the game, which is overkill for one case in the way that they did it.

My favorite filler case is actuallly 1-5, because once again it lets you get to know Phoenix a little better, doesn't have any ties to the main story, and actually shows that even after the ending of the main plot Phoenix is going to be going to work every day taking on cases. Considering I hated all the phoenix cases in 3 with the exception of Bridge to the Turnabout, I would have almost preferred them release 3 as:
1. Mia Case 1 (Same as Game)
2. a good filler case involving Nick and everyone else
3. Mia Case 2 (Case 4 in released game)
4. Bridge to the Turnabout (Case 5 in released game)
5. Another filler case that is an extra kind of like RFTA.
(Of course, this makes the ending less grand and final, but I would be ok with that considering what happens in AJ. If you don't like the post BTTT case you could always substitute it by taking it out and instead releasing a 4 case game with a supersized, RFTA-sized case 2)

So really, I don't want the filler cases to go away or get more relevant to the main plot because they are integral to character development, but when they write the filler case(s) they should keep these things in mind:
1. Do not introduce characters relevant to THAT PARTICULAR GAME in the filler case. (Shi Long-Lang, Kay in I-3)
2. Do no write the filler case as if it's fan-fiction. Don't make it revolve around one of the main characters (Phoenix being impersonated, 3-3)
3. Make sure the logic in the filler case is as well-thought out as in the important cases (Samurai Photo, 1-3)
4. Keep in mind that the case not only makes the game longer but offers a chance to see a different side of the characters (Phoenix working alone, 1-5)
5. This is a break from the main story. Make it as removed from the characters as it is from the audience and don't make any connections to the main plot.
6. Just because it's a filler case doesn't mean it can't come after the main plot's finale, as long as it isn't ruining the narrative. Since GS5 is not a finale and most probably the start of a new trilogy, this is not an issue, so they'd have no trouble doing a "case 5" like in GS1 again.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
4. Keep in mind that the case not only makes the game longer but offers a chance to see a different side of the characters (Phoenix working alone, 1-5)


Wait... how can he be working alone if he, once again, has a hyperactive, underaged girl glued to his side, giving weird-ass comments outside of the courtroom and not-so-subtle-hints inside the courtroom? To me, working alone would mean he wouldn't have a sidekick at all and really stand at the defense's bench all alone.

I have to say, if the Filler Case is supposed to be "as far away from the characters as possible" I would wonder even more what it has to do with this entire thing. I mean, every player basically knows subconciously that Edgeworth, Franziska and Phoenix and such all work their lawyer jobs outside from the ones we witness. So having a case inserted that is basically, "Yeah, just so you know, they are just doing their jobs here." feels weird.

Godot is an exception to this rule, seeing as he says he would never go to court unless it was to face Wright.

C-A
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
4. Keep in mind that the case not only makes the game longer but offers a chance to see a different side of the characters (Phoenix working alone, 1-5)


Wait... how can he be working alone if he, once again, has a hyperactive, underaged girl glued to his side, giving weird-ass comments outside of the courtroom and not-so-subtle-hints inside the courtroom? To me, working alone would mean he wouldn't have a sidekick at all and really stand at the defense's bench all alone.

I have to say, if the Filler Case is supposed to be "as far away from the characters as possible" I would wonder even more what it has to do with this entire thing. I mean, every player basically knows subconciously that Edgeworth, Franziska and Phoenix and such all work their lawyer jobs outside from the ones we witness. So having a case inserted that is basically, "Yeah, just so you know, they are just doing their jobs here." feels weird.

Godot is an exception to this rule, seeing as he says he would never go to court unless it was to face Wright.

C-A


I didn't mean actually being alone, but rather the fact that Maya isn't around anymore, and that influences the plot a little bit (really just to get Ema in the Maya section). i really just meant it offers a glimpse into another bit of Phoenix's life (a time when he is trying to work without Maya there).

I just used that as a way of getting across that it shouldn't be really plot heavy. I obviously don't want to see Phoenix handling mundane divorce cases or something, but I want more "filler" cases in the style of GS1/GS4 than GS2 or GS3. As in the museum that gets robbed doesn't have to be featuring Kurain merchandise and have the kids breaking the jar and all that. I guess what I could equate it to is a legal drama on TV. In one season you might have an over-arching plot, probably taking up 10 episodes altogether. But you also have 10 episodes of non-related "new case of the week" cases that are less about how they affect the characters and more about how the characters solve them. That's what the middle cases are for me, so when I say stay away from the characters' backstories I just mean give us a "case of the week" kind of case in the middle. There needs to be a "calm" in the narrative in between the setup and the finale, and I feel like the best way to do this is a case that is relatively uneventful in the character's lives but is well-written and important to conveying how "normal" should feel so that when the shit hits the fan in the final cases it feels properly different.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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So in order to bring some clarity to one of the more frequently presented points in this debate, I'd like to share this video with you, which touches on the subject and might give rise to some new ideas about the subject.

So after that incredably unspecified intro, enjoy:
http://extra-credits.net/episodes/pacing/
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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beterbomen wrote:
So in order to bring some clarity to one of the more frequently presented points in this debate, I'd like to share this video with you, which touches on the subject and might give rise to some new ideas about the subject.

So after that incredably unspecified intro, enjoy:
http://extra-credits.net/episodes/pacing/


Daniel, if you are talking about pacing you have to make sure your own voice isn't too fast and has pacing itself...

It makes sense to have pacing in videogames.
But in Ace Attorney, it doesn't make sense. Each GS Game itself has 4-5 Cases, a total amount.... let's say GS1, it has a total amount of 15-20 hours. The introduction part of that game? 10 minutes long and it's boring as hell. We see this guy whom we have apparently known for "as long as we can remember" and have to defend him... although, in reality, we don't care what happens to him. Does he get better in the game, when he appears more often? No... he's quickly turned into the "Comic Relief" role.

And in a game that is only 20 hours long, it's really a bad idea to try to give us "breathers". Why? Because then we might lose the tension or interest we got from the previous part and just leave the game alone, pick it up later and remember that terrible, boring case we stopped at and wonder why we picked it up again.
If the game is 20 hours long, you have to make use of every minute you have.

In long, long games like Tales of the Abyss (approx. 60 Hour Gameplay if you do some sidequests) it's absolutely understandable to have slower pacing. Although bad example, the beginning is pretty boring - I know people who stop after 10 hours of playing the game and give up on it because A) the Protagonist gets really, really annoying at that part and B) nothing supremely exciting happens during that time. And At the 11th Hour, we get the first really big Plot Twist and shock.
But there, it makes sense to do slow scenes at a time.

Knight of Ratatosk, a game I finished with a total of 24 hours. It never gave me a proper breather (at least not one that lasted more than 2 minutes until the next important scene came up) but it didn't result in making me more hyped on what'll happen next. What I did get was extremely annoyed cause I wanted this damn game to finally end...!
Although I don't think that was a pacing problem...... more like The Entire Game problem..

C-A
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
It makes sense to have pacing in videogames.
But in Ace Attorney, it doesn't make sense. Each GS Game itself has 4-5 Cases, a total amount.... let's say GS1, it has a total amount of 15-20 hours. The introduction part of that game? 10 minutes long and it's boring as hell. We see this guy whom we have apparently known for "as long as we can remember" and have to defend him... although, in reality, we don't care what happens to him. Does he get better in the game, when he appears more often? No... he's quickly turned into the "Comic Relief" role.

And in a game that is only 20 hours long, it's really a bad idea to try to give us "breathers". Why? Because then we might lose the tension or interest we got from the previous part and just leave the game alone, pick it up later and remember that terrible, boring case we stopped at and wonder why we picked it up again.
If the game is 20 hours long, you have to make use of every minute you have.

In long, long games like Tales of the Abyss (approx. 60 Hour Gameplay if you do some sidequests) it's absolutely understandable to have slower pacing. Although bad example, the beginning is pretty boring - I know people who stop after 10 hours of playing the game and give up on it because A) the Protagonist gets really, really annoying at that part and B) nothing supremely exciting happens during that time. And At the 11th Hour, we get the first really big Plot Twist and shock.
But there, it makes sense to do slow scenes at a time.

Knight of Ratatosk, a game I finished with a total of 24 hours. It never gave me a proper breather (at least not one that lasted more than 2 minutes until the next important scene came up) but it didn't result in making me more hyped on what'll happen next. What I did get was extremely annoyed cause I wanted this damn game to finally end...!
Although I don't think that was a pacing problem...... more like The Entire Game problem..

C-A

Keep in mind that the AA games belong in the Visual Novel genre. There's much more story than game, and it has to follow a different pacing. It's in essence like reading a book or watching a TV series. Some people want to marathon it; others prefer a much laxer pace. The developers are smart to choose the latter, as jumping too quickly through the story can cause some room for confusion. Though, I agree that it's annoying at certain moments when flashbacks review on moments that had just happened some minutes ago.

Also, a question: You say the "introduction" of GS1 is more than 10 minutes long, but the exposition isn't the same as an introduction. Or do you mean the tutorial in the beginning? It's a necessary addition for a new player, but yes, the developers could have added an option to skip it. Then again, the GS games filled so much of their GBA cartridges that even designing character sprites had to be limited during production.

Btw, Larry was most definitely introduced as a comic relief character right off the bat.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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No, I meant the entire Case 1-1 was only 10 minutes long. And it was boring - not the best way to start a game or a visual novel.
Most books I read start with something a little more exciting. I mean, this is a game about Law that should be totally exciting... but this is AA Law and it's terrible, but I won't go there again. A lot of people say that Kafka's "Metamorphosis" had a brilliant way of getting interest in the first sentence.
"I woke up today as a bug." Personally, I found that sentence to be extremely boring...

Well, Visual Novels should focus on story elements and not on something absolutely random - The Steel Samurai Case feels like a fanfiction. Ignoring the plot holes it has, it just feels weird. What sort of purpose would such a "chapter" have a book? None. You'd read it and then wonder WTF happened there and why was it put in.

It's okay if they want to put in Cases as breathers, to show us a bit more of their normal life, but couldn't they at least try to make it seem a bit important to the story? None of the 3rd Cases I have played had any big important story thing happening in them. Maybe in 3-3 where we learn of Godot's LASERBEAMS but come on... one look at his mask and you know those things are freaking lightbulb.. stuff things. I-3 introduced Kay but...... well I feel she has NO story importance in the entire game, so I'm ignoring that.

C-A
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title

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Erm...I actually liked the 3 case for the first 4 games. ^^; (Bite me!)

Maybe they were all meant for comic relief since it would be weird of Phoenix's entire lawyer career revolved around the Fey clan. (Or in Apollo's case, Phoenix's past.)

And the 3rd case of T&T was probably the only case from the game that I liked. :snackood: (Something bugged me about the second case, I just can't wrap my fingers around it.)

Since GS5 will have a new story that possibly has nothing to do with the Fey clan...I dunno, we can't really predict if the third case of GS5 will be filler, but if it is......you win cookies CatMuto for being a good forshadower. ^^;
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
The Steel Samurai Case feels like a fanfiction. Ignoring the plot holes it has, it just feels weird. What sort of purpose would such a "chapter" have a book? None. You'd read it and then wonder WTF happened there and why was it put in.
C-A

I think you're missing the point. That case wasn't about a case, it was about fleshing out the characters. Say, for example, the player were to skip 1-3 entirely, and go straight to 1-4. The result? Maya's childish behavior seems to have come right the frak out of nowhere (if you didn't already feel like that), the player has no incentive to defend Edgeworth (well maybe Nick does, but YOU wouldn't; why would you defend the guy who almost got you declared guilty for murder in the last episode), and Gumshoe suddenly helping you would feel completely spontaneous.
The point: that case was about making you understand the characters and give a damn about them before the game throws you into the climax.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title

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sumguy28 wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
The Steel Samurai Case feels like a fanfiction. Ignoring the plot holes it has, it just feels weird. What sort of purpose would such a "chapter" have a book? None. You'd read it and then wonder WTF happened there and why was it put in.
C-A

I think you're missing the point. That case wasn't about a case, it was about fleshing out the characters. Say, for example, the player were to skip 1-3 entirely, and go straight to 1-4. The result? Maya's childish behavior seems to have come right the frak out of nowhere (if you didn't already feel like that), the player has no incentive to defend Edgeworth (well maybe Nick does, but YOU wouldn't; why would you defend the guy who almost got you declared guilty for murder in the last episode), and Gumshoe suddenly helping you would feel completely spontaneous.
The point: that case was about making you understand the characters and give a damn about them before the game throws you into the climax.


May I have permission to hug you? :pearly:
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Emiko Gale wrote:
sumguy28 wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
The Steel Samurai Case feels like a fanfiction. Ignoring the plot holes it has, it just feels weird. What sort of purpose would such a "chapter" have a book? None. You'd read it and then wonder WTF happened there and why was it put in.
C-A

I think you're missing the point. That case wasn't about a case, it was about fleshing out the characters. Say, for example, the player were to skip 1-3 entirely, and go straight to 1-4. The result? Maya's childish behavior seems to have come right the frak out of nowhere (if you didn't already feel like that), the player has no incentive to defend Edgeworth (well maybe Nick does, but YOU wouldn't; why would you defend the guy who almost got you declared guilty for murder in the last episode), and Gumshoe suddenly helping you would feel completely spontaneous.
The point: that case was about making you understand the characters and give a damn about them before the game throws you into the climax.


May I have permission to hug you? :pearly:


This is a little bit of what I was talking about before in another topic, in which I called for more cases like this. This is a kind of "case-of-the-week" case that has no real bearing on the character's lives other than giving us a chance to see them in their "normal" life. It's filler, but neccesary filler. The other AA games have all found some way of trying to make the filler cases important to the overall plot of the game, but the connection was thin and it often made the case less interesting because of the boundaries the connection set up. This was the reason why 3-2 and 3-3 felt so strained. As many problems as 1-3 has, it and 1-5 were still much better cases than 3-2 and 3-3, in my opinion.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title

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I liked case 1-3 because those were the cases that got me to love Maya and Edgeworth. We learn how crazy Maya can be and we learn that Edgeworth has his dramatic moments.
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sumguy28 wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
The Steel Samurai Case feels like a fanfiction. Ignoring the plot holes it has, it just feels weird. What sort of purpose would such a "chapter" have a book? None. You'd read it and then wonder WTF happened there and why was it put in.
C-A

I think you're missing the point. That case wasn't about a case, it was about fleshing out the characters. Say, for example, the player were to skip 1-3 entirely, and go straight to 1-4. The result? Maya's childish behavior seems to have come right the frak out of nowhere (if you didn't already feel like that), the player has no incentive to defend Edgeworth (well maybe Nick does, but YOU wouldn't; why would you defend the guy who almost got you declared guilty for murder in the last episode), and Gumshoe suddenly helping you would feel completely spontaneous.
The point: that case was about making you understand the characters and give a damn about them before the game throws you into the climax.

Thank you.

The same can be applied to other intermediate cases in later games. JFA gives the players a chance to see other characters outside the original main cast to grow. Admittedly, the ties between its cases are veeeeeery loose, and Capcom should have used something else beside 2-4 to tie them together. Still, this is the game where we first meet Franziska and Pearl, and 2-3 helps to ease relationships between them and the players. Throughout this game, Pearl remains in the shadows of others - wanting to help out, but ultimately unable to. Franziska remains in the shadow of Edgeworth forevermore, and with Edgey's triumphant return, Franzy's role is thrown aside. Of course, while Pearl persists with good will, Franzy persists with the less comfortable kind.

Without 2-3, Franzy would be thrown away before she could attempt to redeem herself. This case also proves her to be a foil to Edgeworth; blindly following the legacy of the Von Karma name. And yet, like him, she was clued in to have little remaining attachment to her father after the events of 1-4. Thus, as she puts it, it's up to her to clean up the "mess" that Edgeworth "caused". However, the dev team didn't want to stuff everything about her into 2-2, as there's still a trial to be handled. (Dammit, Capcom, why did you have to send Pearl out of the picture for most of it; so much lost potential! Though, this case is rather serious for her eyes and ears...)

Moving on into T&T... Case 3-2 is definitely the weakest in this game, but it too serves its own purpose well: showing how Pearl is growing in the shelter of Nick and Maya's company. (This almost makes up for her absence in 2-3, almost...) She realizes that, despite her refined demeanor and long-sought independence, there's so much she still has to learn before she can call herself an "adult". Even once glance at Adrian, and she immediately shifts to the thought of a scandal.

Case 3-3 has Pearl absent again, with focus on character development of the game's main prosecutor. In 3-2, Godot was already shown to have a great amount of unexplained hatred for Nick. In 3-3, it goes even further by including the point that he doesn't care for anything else but his hate of Nick. That's unhealthy obsession there. All in the meantime, he's waiting for his plan to activate in 3-5. (For parody's sake, the guy named "Godot" ends up being the one to wait instead. /derp) Two losses in a row against the same guy doesn't bother him for long because he's already planned out so much for the finale.

Interesting to note that the only time Mia shows up in this case is outside the courtroom, so Godot doesn't have that to complain about when he faces Phoenix again. That's probably the actual reason he threw that mug at him at the end; Nick essentially proved for once that he didn't always need Mia's help during a trial.

Okay, on to AJ now... 4-3 is definitely the weakest in this game. No need to concern with little girls under the age of 10 now; the char dev spotlight is still on Klavier. Unfortunately, it's in this one where I go from not caring much about him to despising him for being such a whiny brat. Still, I have to give him some leeway; he's pretty unfortunate to have strong connections to the wrong people. Thankfully, he redeemed himself in the final case when he finally broke out from being in Kristoph's control. Notice the not-so-subtle parallels between him and Edgeworth? (But Capcom, if you even consider giving him a Great Revival-like theme in a future game, I will break down in rage... and pelt him with snackoos.)

Oh, yeah, there's also Thalassa and Valant who make their first appearances here, but their problems are resolved by the game's end too. All that about Lamiroir being blind and amnesiac, gone; that's the biggest disappointment of all, actually. All the development for them in case 4-3, thrown out the door. Nevertheless, it wouldn't be a proper concert for Klavier without a beautiful songstress and a magic trick, right? (Actually, the only purpose Valant had in this one was the magic trick that plays a part into solving the mystery. The trick had more importance than the magician. That is shameful.)

I agree that the cases in AAI & GK2 don't match up that well compared to cases in the original trilogy, but Capcom still did a decent job in cleaning up loose ends in both games. But I disagree that I-3 is the weakest of the bunch in AAI; that dishonor goes to I-1, since it's so simple and boring. (I'll skip on commenting on GK2 until I've replayed through it again. There's so much that I missed the first time through.)

Wow, I haven't typed this much for a single post outside of translations. I need a break.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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sumguy28 wrote:
I think you're missing the point. That case wasn't about a case, it was about fleshing out the characters. Say, for example, the player were to skip 1-3 entirely, and go straight to 1-4. The result? Maya's childish behavior seems to have come right the frak out of nowhere (if you didn't already feel like that), the player has no incentive to defend Edgeworth (well maybe Nick does, but YOU wouldn't; why would you defend the guy who almost got you declared guilty for murder in the last episode), and Gumshoe suddenly helping you would feel completely spontaneous.
The point: that case was about making you understand the characters and give a damn about them before the game throws you into the climax.


Actually, I figured out Maya was gonna be the 'crazy' behavior and energetic girl pretty early on. So her randomly yelling, "HI, I'M NICK!!" into a microphone never struck me as odd behavior... at least, odd behavior for her.

I cared for Edgeworth instantly cause... he's pretty. Also he's a snarky jerk in 1-2 and seems to know the law in comparison to Phoenix. So I really wanted to defend Edgeworth.

Gumshoe helping me.... well, even without 1-3, just a look at his character design I'd notice that he's the bumbling good hearted Detective that helps me, although he shouldn't. Him doing it willingly? Eh, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me, never mind if I played 1-3 or didn't.

Quote:
And the 3rd case of T&T was probably the only case from the game that I liked. :snackood: (Something bugged me about the second case, I just can't wrap my fingers around it.)


:godot: "I am the new prosecutor. Like all of them, I act like a dick. But I am acting even more like a dick towards you, Trite. Yeah, I have a personal reason to hate you, but I will not tell you what it is until halfway through the final case. However, I will keep constantly referring to how you fucked up in regards to this reason. Now suck my dick coffee!!" :trapcardcoffee:
Could it possibly have been that?
Or maybe it was this Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuy~ :accordion-head:

C-A

Last edited by CatMuto on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CatMuto wrote:
sumguy28 wrote:
I think you're missing the point. That case wasn't about a case, it was about fleshing out the characters. Say, for example, the player were to skip 1-3 entirely, and go straight to 1-4. The result? Maya's childish behavior seems to have come right the frak out of nowhere (if you didn't already feel like that), the player has no incentive to defend Edgeworth (well maybe Nick does, but YOU wouldn't; why would you defend the guy who almost got you declared guilty for murder in the last episode), and Gumshoe suddenly helping you would feel completely spontaneous.
The point: that case was about making you understand the characters and give a damn about them before the game throws you into the climax.


Actually, I figured out Maya was gonna be the 'crazy' behavior and energetic girl pretty early on. So her randomly yelling, "HI, I'M NICK!!" into a microphone never struck me as odd behavior... at least, odd behavior for her.

I cared for Edgeworth instantly cause... he's pretty. Also he's a snarky jerk in 1-2 and seems to know the law in comparison to Phoenix. So I really wanted to defend Edgeworth.

Gumshoe helping me.... well, even without 1-3, just a look at his character design I'd notice that he's the bumbling good hearted Detective that helps me, although he shouldn't. Him doing it willingly? Eh, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me, never mind if I played 1-3 or didn't.


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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title

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It wasn't just the new prosecutor in case 3-2 and me making the most dramatic reaction I made when I found out that my precious Edgeworth was in Europe. :larry:

Something bugged me about the urn...I suppose.
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I felt the Kurain involvement in 3-2 was unnecessary. Same with Phoenix being impersonated in 3-3. I felt like they made too much of an effort to get the characters "involved" with the case, and have it be about them. It gave me this feeling of "Can you guys not go anywhere without getting into trouble?" I'm not saying I want every case to be a client coming to them or them seeing something on TV, but it would be nice if it wasn't always directly relating to them. This happened even in AJ (which I played first, which is why I felt like 1-3 was so refreshing. 1-3, 1-5 and 2-3 are really the only filler cases that don't have some weird stuff happen to the main cast, and I don't like 2-3 lol.)

[Just for the record, I also didn't care for Godot much. He's the only prosecutor in the games who I don't like. I even like Payne a little, but Godot bugs me. He's a badly-written character with sexist attitudes and a half-assed problem with Phoenix that doesn't hold any water, in my opinion.]

I probably would've defended Edgeworth instantly, because the game tells me I'm supposed to, but I didn't become to care about his character personally until the end of case 3, simply because I had spent a lot of time with the character in court. (I think even Rise from the Ashes is helpful too, because it's the first time Edgeworth is "New Edgeworth" and he's obviously grown from his trial). The kind of characterization AA excels in is usually focused on minute quirks of a deeper personality, which slowly gets drawn out as the game progresses.

This is why the Phoenix Wright film was so flawed. It wasn't really the creator's fault, but rather a flaw of the medium itself. Phoenix Wright made a bad movie because there's no way you can care for the characters in the film in 2 hours. (Edgeworth is arrested like 45 minutes into the film - only like 25 after we first are introduced to him as the "bad guy".) Watch the movie and pretend you haven't played the games before. You'll start to feel like "Why am I supposed to care about this character? Why am I supposed to be moved by this? They've only had 5 minutes of screentime and they're playing it off exactly like it happens after 3 hours of gameplay."

I think the real solution which will make everyone happy with GS5 is to make sure all the cases are GOOD. Once that happens, we can nitpick at them but at least people can think "Well, that case still had unnecessary attachments to the characters, but at least it was still a good case" or "That character was bad, but at least it was a good case."
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title

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ADA McCoy wrote:
I felt the Kurain involvement in 3-2 was unnecessary. Same with Phoenix being impersonated in 3-3. I felt like they made too much of an effort to get the characters "involved" with the case, and have it be about them. It gave me this feeling of "Can you guys not go anywhere without getting into trouble?" I'm not saying I want every case to be a client coming to them or them seeing something on TV, but it would be nice if it wasn't always directly relating to them. This happened even in AJ (which I played first, which is why I felt like 1-3 was so refreshing. 1-3, 1-5 and 2-3 are really the only filler cases that don't have some weird stuff happen to the main cast, and I don't like 2-3 lol.)

[Just for the record, I also didn't care for Godot much. He's the only prosecutor in the games who I don't like. I even like Payne a little, but Godot bugs me. He's a badly-written character with sexist attitudes and a half-assed problem with Phoenix that doesn't hold any water, in my opinion.]


This! It just pains me to say it because I do adore Maya and Pearl. And Phoenix being impersonated made it kind of obvious that Tigre was the killer. (I said I like the third cases from the first 4 games...I never said they were flawless.)

I also cared for Payne a little, I wish he could've got more character development. (Overall character development matters more to me than whether or not a character's character design is pleasing to the eyes...I'm looking at you Iris.) I also love immitating Payne's "OBJECTION!"
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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ADA McCoy wrote:
I think the real solution which will make everyone happy with GS5 is to make sure all the cases are GOOD. Once that happens, we can nitpick at them but at least people can think "Well, that case still had unnecessary attachments to the characters, but at least it was still a good case" or "That character was bad, but at least it was a good case."

Objection. A game tends to be more successful if it includes filler at moments. What happens when everything in a game is about the same level of quality? That leaves the player yearning for something even greater to conclude the game, but there isn't. That's how I felt about the AAI games. The range of quality feels flat, and I believe that's why it doesn't in any way trump the previous games. It's not to say that these games are of any poorer quality; they simply don't stand out as well. Basically, for a case to be decent, it just needs to match on par with most other cases. For it to be truly "good", it needs to stand out against the decent crowd.

As for the rest of that nitpicking, there's no solution to that. Fans will forever be picky.

Whew, now I'm confused about which "side" I'm on.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
ADA McCoy wrote:
I think the real solution which will make everyone happy with GS5 is to make sure all the cases are GOOD. Once that happens, we can nitpick at them but at least people can think "Well, that case still had unnecessary attachments to the characters, but at least it was still a good case" or "That character was bad, but at least it was a good case."

Objection. A game tends to be more successful if it includes filler at moments. What happens when everything in a game is about the same level of quality? That leaves the player yearning for something even greater to conclude the game, but there isn't. That's how I felt about the AAI games. The range of quality feels flat, and I believe that's why it doesn't in any way trump the previous games. It's not to say that these games are of any poorer quality; they simply don't stand out as well. Basically, for a case to be decent, it just needs to match on par with most other cases. For it to be truly "good", it needs to stand out against the decent crowd.

As for the rest of that nitpicking, there's no solution to that. Fans will forever be picky.

Whew, now I'm confused about which "side" I'm on.


I don't think there are any real sides, to be honest. The subject is so random and the opinions are so based on personal preference that no one is going to agree on everything.

I think if we're just using different words; I don't mean "good" to be the pinnacle of amazingness. If you substitute your uses of "decent" with "good" and your use of "good" with "great" then you have the same opinion. I would argue that quality doesn't have to be worse to make a filler case less impact-full than the finale, it just plays with different themes and ideas. I consider both 1-4 and 1-5 to be great cases, but for different reasons. There is no question that 1-4 is the more important, more impactful case, and I would argue it is the better of the two. But that doesn't mean 1-5 is of lesser quality (in my opinion), it's just a different type of case.
Here are my opinions on if a case was great, good, unremarkable, or bad.
1-1: unremarkable
1-2: great
1-3: good
1-4: Great
1-5: Great

2-1: Unremarkable
2-2: good
2-3: Bad
2-4: Great

3-1: Good
3-2: Unremarkable
3-3: Bad
3-4: good
3-5 good

4-1: good
4-2: unremarkable/bad (I hate the case because of the trucy panty jokes, but the case itself is a little more solid than others I'd say are flat out bad)
4-3: good
4-4: great

I-1: good
I-2: good
I-3 Unremarkable
I-4: good
I-5: good

In my opinion, the first game still has the best cases and the best quality overall. Not all the cases are great, but they are (in my opinion) all good. Personally, Apollo Justice is next in line for case quality, although I know a lot of people will disagree with me on that. What I was saying was that if GS5 can get an average case quality similar to GS1, then there's a good chance the game will be well-recieved.
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Quote:
(I think even Rise from the Ashes is helpful too, because it's the first time Edgeworth is "New Edgeworth" and he's obviously grown from his trial)


That's exactly the problem I have with 1-5 Edgeworth.
He's not supposed to be New Edgeworth. Play 1-5, then play JFA and you'll say, "Why are you making such a big deal out of Edgeworth seeking truth/justice more than just wanting to win a case?" Because that's nothing new to us at that point. What would be the point of his leaving for a year to "find himself as a prosecutor" if he already had his Answer/New Personality displayed before he even left?
It doesn't make sense and that's what ruins 1-5 as canoninity for me. Also, I find Damon Gant to be just a cheap excuse to make somebody worse than Karma. Really Gant and Alba are on the same level - fuck your status, I will still kill you if you do wrong with the law. (Okay, okay, haul them into jail, but really, who doesn't want to kill Alba at the end of I-5?)

C-A
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ADA McCoy wrote:
I don't think there are any real sides, to be honest. The subject is so random and the opinions are so based on personal preference that no one is going to agree on everything.

But that's why we're on forums, not in a debate competition. :maya:

Quote:
In my opinion, the first game still has the best cases and the best quality overall. Not all the cases are great, but they are (in my opinion) all good. Personally, Apollo Justice is next in line for case quality, although I know a lot of people will disagree with me on that. What I was saying was that if GS5 can get an average case quality similar to GS1, then there's a good chance the game will be well-recieved.

Yeah, though that wasn't what I was objecting to. It's just that it becomes tougher to give the overall game a certain grade when all its cases are at about the same level. Your opinion on AAI helps prove my point. It's also why I can get picky on the diction.

I really hope that's the only similarity besides a few interesting - and subtle - parallels. Overall, I'm pleased with how GS5 has been revealed to be so far, but based on the ratings from the AAI games, it's a slight concern that it may not turn out to be the "great revival" of the series. I have high hopes though. Nonetheless, GS1 will forever remain the best, not only because it started the series, but it set such a solid foundation for the series to grow on... even though GS1-1 is the most boring of all, if you exclude the player-intended mistakes he makes.

1-5 is just one of those cases where it rests in between the "good" and the "not bad" levels. After the grand conclusion of GS1 with 1-4, 1-5 definitely feels out of place - especially the ending. Also why I exclude PLvsAA from either series' timeline; it doesn't contradict anything, but it feels too out of place to fit anywhere. Hopefully, GS5 can avoid giving off that impression.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
ADA McCoy wrote:
I don't think there are any real sides, to be honest. The subject is so random and the opinions are so based on personal preference that no one is going to agree on everything.

But that's why we're on forums, not in a debate competition. :maya:

Quote:
In my opinion, the first game still has the best cases and the best quality overall. Not all the cases are great, but they are (in my opinion) all good. Personally, Apollo Justice is next in line for case quality, although I know a lot of people will disagree with me on that. What I was saying was that if GS5 can get an average case quality similar to GS1, then there's a good chance the game will be well-recieved.

Yeah, though that wasn't what I was objecting to. It's just that it becomes tougher to give the overall game a certain grade when all its cases are at about the same level. Your opinion on AAI helps prove my point. It's also why I can get picky on the diction.

I really hope that's the only similarity besides a few interesting - and subtle - parallels. Overall, I'm pleased with how GS5 has been revealed to be so far, but based on the ratings from the AAI games, it's a slight concern that it may not turn out to be the "great revival" of the series. I have high hopes though. Nonetheless, GS1 will forever remain the best, not only because it started the series, but it set such a solid foundation for the series to grow on... even though GS1-1 is the most boring of all, if you exclude the player-intended mistakes he makes.

1-5 is just one of those cases where it rests in between the "good" and the "not bad" levels. After the grand conclusion of GS1 with 1-4, 1-5 definitely feels out of place - especially the ending. Also why I exclude PLvsAA from either series' timeline; it doesn't contradict anything, but it feels too out of place to fit anywhere. Hopefully, GS5 can avoid giving off that impression.


I still believe that the AAI series' problems mostly stem from their complicated timeline spot and their inability to go to trial, but we'll see. I'm hoping that GS5 will show that under the right circumstances this team can really excel.

I think you and I have a different opinion on 1-5. Yes, tonally it doesn't fit with what just happened after 1-4, and it's a bit anti-climatic, but I still think it's a great case for the same reasons Turnabout Samurai was. It's a good filler case that shows us a little more about the characters, particularly Edgeworth and Phoenix. Now, I would not have liked it if it had come after 2-4 or 3-5, but because it was the first game it made sense to see a little bit of post-1-4 Phoenix working. I didn't feel like it was anti-climatic because when I played it all 4 GS games had been released, so the day after I beat 1-5 I started 2-1, so it had a nice "in between major plot points" effect. Of course, some of it is personal bias, too; Rise from the Ashes was the case I was playing during a particularly good time in my life, it was the longest case from GS1, and I played AJ first, so it was nice to see a "return" of the DS-specific effects and to see the backstory of LAPD Detective Skye in the same way it was nice to "flashback" to pre-piano player Phoenix.
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I actually have a few problems with 5-3, but I'll only delve on one at the moment.

Mainly, with Athena. Now the problem here stems from the very case itself, where you play as Athena. More importantly, you play her in court.

Now most would ask 'what's the problem' but I'll explain what I mean.

During 5-1, Athena is going to defend Juniper on account of the courtroom bombing. Now when she gets to the Defense Stand, she practically freezes after a few minutes.

Why?

In 5-3 she's more than capable of handling herself in court, against Blackquill, who Prosecutor Payne pales in comparison too. So why can't Athena defend her friend and it's Payne who breaks her in court?

I mean she took on a much harder case, so why did she freeze? It's not like she had any trouble before against Blackquill, so I don't see why she would have so much trouble against Payne.
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I have to say, I-3 is one of my favorite cases in the series.

Yes, I'll admit that Lance Amano is one lame ass villain. It still introduces two of my favorite characters in the series (Kay Faraday and Shi-Long-Lang) and the howdunnit in the case is very intriguing. The last section with Little Thief was very well done IMO.

GK2-3 is the best non-finale case by far and 5-3 is very good as well
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shippersdreamer wrote:
During 5-1, Athena is going to defend Juniper on account of the courtroom bombing. Now when she gets to the Defense Stand, she practically freezes after a few minutes.

Why?

In 5-3 she's more than capable of handling herself in court, against Blackquill, who Prosecutor Payne pales in comparison too. So why can't Athena defend her friend and it's Payne who breaks her in court?

I mean she took on a much harder case, so why did she freeze? It's not like she had any trouble before against Blackquill, so I don't see why she would have so much trouble against Payne.


I'd say she didn't freeze in case 3 because of this:

Image
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It wasn't that smooth for Athena in case 3 either.

About the curse of case 3, I've thought about that as well. Although not a bad case 1-3 was definitely the weakest link in the first game (1-1 was tutorial case after all, and as one I think it did its job well). 2-3... oh, the beloved circus case. Despite being what it is, I didn't find it very memorable, and the characters were either bland or annoying. I liked 3-3 though. Not the best case in the series, but I found it fun to play. I have somewhat mixed feelings about 4-3, because although some things in it was downright stupid, and I won't even get started about the video and lyrics of "Guitar's serenade" (hey, did you know the murder was committed according to the lyrics!?) I had fun playing it. But sure, I was really annoyed at times. 5-3 wasn't a favourite of mine (and I found the murder scheme overdone), but I liked it, especially the character transformation. I have nothing against AAI-3. GK-3 wasn't the best case around, but having Gregory Edgeworth and young Shigaraki in it makes it score some points in my book. So, summarizing... there's absolutely some truth to it.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
It wasn't that smooth for Athena in case 3 either.

About the curse of case 3, I've thought about that as well. Although not a bad case 1-3 was definitely the weakest link in the first game (1-1 was tutorial case after all, and as one I think it did its job well). 2-3... oh, the beloved circus case. Despite being what it is, I didn't find it very memorable, and the characters were either bland or annoying. I liked 3-3 though. Not the best case in the series, but I found it fun to play. I have somewhat mixed feelings about 4-3, because although some things in it was downright stupid, and I won't even get started about the video and lyrics of "Guitar's serenade" (hey, did you know the murder was committed according to the lyrics!?) I had fun playing it. But sure, I was really annoyed at times. 5-3 wasn't a favourite of mine (and I found the murder scheme overdone), but I liked it, especially the character transformation. I have nothing against AAI-3. GK-3 wasn't the best case around, but having Gregory Edgeworth and young Shigaraki in it makes it score some points in my book. So, summarizing... there's absolutely some truth to it.


I really disliked 4-3 because of the fucking music thing. I sat there listening for god knows how long because I didn't know which instrument and yadda yadda yadda. It was a long and boring case to me.
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shippersdreamer wrote:
I sat there listening for god knows how long because I didn't know which instrument and yadda yadda yadda. It was a long and boring case to me.


Gah, so did I. It felt as if my head was about to explode. I didn't dislike case 4-3, but there definitely were some annoying aspects.

As for 5-3, when it comes to the infamous third cases, I liked it a lot. It didn't have that "filler-ish" air 2-3 and 3-3 had. Now, I didn't dislike 2-3 and 3-3, I had more fun playing them than playing 1-3, but the latter offered some good character developement as far as I remember, and that counts for something, even if it is one of my least favourite cases.
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WaitingforGodot wrote:
shippersdreamer wrote:
I sat there listening for god knows how long because I didn't know which instrument and yadda yadda yadda. It was a long and boring case to me.


Gah, so did I. It felt as if my head was about to explode. I didn't dislike case 4-3, but there definitely were some annoying aspects.

As for 5-3, when it comes to the infamous third cases, I liked it a lot. It didn't have that "filler-ish" air 2-3 and 3-3 had. Now, I didn't dislike 2-3 and 3-3, I had more fun playing them than playing 1-3, but the latter offered some good character developement as far as I remember, and that counts for something, even if it is one of my least favourite cases.


5-3 managed to be on the better side of the Case 3 Curse, but I still found it rather weak in some areas, 4-3 I absolutely hated, and 2-3 and 3-3 I found were better than 1-3 as well, less filler and more character development.
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I had the impression that 5-3 was generally considered a good case.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
I had the impression that 5-3 was generally considered a good case.


Yes, me too, it seems mighty popular.
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WaitingforGodot wrote:
GoingforMiles wrote:
I had the impression that 5-3 was generally considered a good case.


Yes, me too, it seems mighty popular.


I'm not saying the case is bad, I'm just saying that there are still a few things that it does wrong. 5-3 is a very good case in my opinion, but there were still irks and bugs here and there.
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Me neither, I'm just saying that seems to be the exception of the third case curse.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
Me neither, I'm just saying that seems to be the exception of the third case curse.


It does look like that, but Athena's character still bugs me.
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shippersdreamer wrote:
WaitingforGodot wrote:
GoingforMiles wrote:
I had the impression that 5-3 was generally considered a good case.


Yes, me too, it seems mighty popular.


I'm not saying the case is bad, I'm just saying that there are still a few things that it does wrong. 5-3 is a very good case in my opinion, but there were still irks and bugs here and there.


Yes, I didn't mean it as a retort to you, I was just pondering a little. :sahwit: But yes, there are a few irksome aspects, even though I enjoyed the case.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
5-3 wasn't a favourite of mine (and I found the murder scheme overdone), but I liked it, especially the character transformation..


That just about sums up my opinion of the case as well. I did like the overall setting, and Phoenix's role in it was surprisingly good, but aside from the hilarious transformation, the ending was just one giant mess. I would probably also enjoy it more if you played as Apollo instead of the ever-present yellow android, but hey, the case was very fun.

I actually also like 1-3 since there's plenty of great character development and fun lines to be had, and not every case has to be of epic proportions. Yes, the support characters aren't that interesting (although I've got a soft spot for Will Powers) and the whole monkey head blocking the path is a bit dumb, but it's a solid case nonetheless.

The rest are either neutral (3-3), forgettable (every single case in the spin-off series) or downright annoying (2-3, 4-3), in my very subjective opinion. So yeah, I'd say Dual Destinies did a very good job resisting the curse of the third case. Wish I could say the same about the finale though.
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Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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I liked 5-3 a lot, mainly because of having Apollo as a partner, seeing how she copes in the lead (after 5-1's failure), and its supporting cast (especially Myriam). Also, I didn't have to deal with anything that I hated about the previous case (anything involving yokai/the supernatural).
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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Your Honor! There is a contradiction!

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NinjaMonkey wrote:
I liked 5-3 a lot, mainly because of having Apollo as a partner, seeing how she copes in the lead (after 5-1's failure), and its supporting cast (especially Myriam). Also, I didn't have to deal with anything that I hated about the previous case (anything involving yokai/the supernatural).


Ohh god I really didn't like all of that yokai bullshit from 5-2. I couldn't stand how people could stomach this and take it seriously, when I replayed the game I just wanted that case to be over with.
Re: The 3rd Link is the Weakest - even in GS5?Topic%20Title
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You know, a Mario game!

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Hey, Nine Tales Vale is no worse than Kurain Village when it comes to being "too Japanese", at least in my opinion.

Anyways, 5-3 wasn't too bad of a case, it was certainly better than 4-3, that's for damn sure. Am I the only person here who actually likes 3-3? It was a pretty interesting case, sure, the premise was stupid, but at least the game was aware that the premise was stupid, unlike 4-3.
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