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Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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Okay, looks like this thread is getting out of hand...a lot....one of my many regrets if this doesn't turn positive soon.

So that's why I'm gonna talk about something on an unrelated note! *deep breath*

Why is there no Dai Gyakuten Saiban E--
Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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Going for Miles wrote:
They're not saying only black lives matter, they're saying black lives matter too since some people doesn't seem to think they do. Saying "All lives matter" is watering it out; that all lives matter is a given, but "all lives" include "black lives", and since the issue concerns black people it is concentrated on them.


I see okay thanks I didn't really get it before but know I do. I sucks how there is still Racism in America. Not sure about sexism but I think they're still is a bit of it. Why can't we all just get along? Why do people have to comment on what someone looks like?
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The Mechanic wrote:
Going for Miles wrote:
They're not saying only black lives matter, they're saying black lives matter too since some people doesn't seem to think they do. Saying "All lives matter" is watering it out; that all lives matter is a given, but "all lives" include "black lives", and since the issue concerns black people it is concentrated on them.


I see okay thanks I didn't really get it before but know I do. I sucks how there is still Racism in America. Not sure about sexism but I think they're still is a bit of it. Why can't we all just get along? Why do people have to comment on what someone looks like?


Saying a black person has no rights is like saying is saying rocks are the emobiment of evil.

WTF guys. Racism sucks.
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The Mechanic wrote:
Going for Miles wrote:
They're not saying only black lives matter, they're saying black lives matter too since some people doesn't seem to think they do. Saying "All lives matter" is watering it out; that all lives matter is a given, but "all lives" include "black lives", and since the issue concerns black people it is concentrated on them.


I see okay thanks I didn't really get it before but know I do. I sucks how there is still Racism in America. Not sure about sexism but I think they're still is a bit of it. Why can't we all just get along? Why do people have to comment on what someone looks like?


:) Yeah, definitely. And that's a good question, for sure.
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Going for Miles wrote:
The Mechanic wrote:
Going for Miles wrote:
They're not saying only black lives matter, they're saying black lives matter too since some people doesn't seem to think they do. Saying "All lives matter" is watering it out; that all lives matter is a given, but "all lives" include "black lives", and since the issue concerns black people it is concentrated on them.


I see okay thanks I didn't really get it before but know I do. I sucks how there is still Racism in America. Not sure about sexism but I think they're still is a bit of it. Why can't we all just get along? Why do people have to comment on what someone looks like?


:) Yeah, definitely. And that's a good question, for sure.


I hope by the time I die Racism and Sexism dosn't exist in any 1st world countries anymore. But sadly that probably won't happen. People like to feel higher than others and that's exactly Trumps plan is to feel like he is the ruler of America. This is exactly why I am a equal opportunity person. This all needs to end right now but I know that this stuff won't ever stop sadly. There will always be racists, and sexists in America.
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Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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Perhaps the localization team should have explained how in this alternate universe, instead of California having the "Yellow Scare", they had the "Black Scare". Hence why there aren't many African Americans living in this LA.

I previously thought of this as a joke, but now that I think even more, it's actually a plausible hypothesis.

Will the question of race ever be brought into an AA game? Not likely, but it does seem like Capcom JP has been taking more progressive views with how they depict their characters regarding social justice. Just take Nahyuta... Not to mention, the latest interview on GS6 did show that the writers were interested in ideas dealing with different races and cultures around the world. It won't surprise me if that's the direction they come to take for GS7.

Otherwise, don't count on there being more ethnic diversity back home in Japanifornia.
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Having read through this thread, I get why the characters are fairly homogenous in terms of skincolour/ethnicity, but I disagree that more diversity in the cast would be "shoehorning", (Did Marlon feel shoehorned? I don't think so. He was there being a character just like everyone else), iin fact I think it'd be pretty neat, as long as they wouldn't turn out stereotypes or charicatures, then I'd rather not have them do it (I guess one could argue that Marlon being a rapper was stereotypical, but if so it's pretty harmless and there's more to his character than rapping).
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Not likely, but it does seem like Capcom JP has been taking more progressive views with how they depict their characters regarding social justice. Just take Nahyuta...

With Nayuta's appearance though, I'd say it had a lot more to do with the fact that Buddhism had a great role inspiring the look of the game, and giving that one of the most revered persons in Buddhism is a figure who is depicted as both male and female and is commonly seen as transcending genders...
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Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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Yep, but his comments about being a feminist to argue with Apollo in case 2 can be taken a few ways. Subtle but present signs.

Speaking of which, this discussion of race is one subject I'd like to see more prevalent in DGS, given the culture gap and all.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Yep, but his comments about being a feminist to argue with Apollo in case 2 can be taken a few ways. Subtle but present signs.

Speaking of which, this discussion of race is one subject I'd like to see more prevalent in DGS, given the culture gap and all.


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I'm so haaaaaaaaaappyyyyyy!!!

I really want to see a subject like this handled in that game!
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Yep, but his comments about being a feminist to argue with Apollo in case 2 can be taken a few ways.


?
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Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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On one hand, I'd rather believe he means it that he is a feminist as he says and advocates for women's rights without getting up in arms about social justice. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if he merely made that comment just to argue for his case;
Spoiler: 6-2 details
namely, to argue that Trucy, despite her slim and slender figure, could drag a grown man's corpse and stuff it into a coffin in a matter of minutes.

Then again, given that she moved those heavy-looking lifts all by herself, she's certainly not as weak as she looks and Apollo probably should have realized his argument couldn't really hold water.

But the fact remains that the culture of Khura'in is quite impartial when it comes to the sexes, and Nahyuta definitely reflects that.

To be honest, I'm starting to see a growing movement of social justice in Japan as well, even if it's still pretty light. The conservatives are the ones in power, though...
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Spoiler: 6-2
It annoyed me how they solved that discussion by having Ema saying she had maneuvred the lift with someone standing on it, so if she, being a woman, could do it then Trucy, also being a woman, could have done it as well. Trucy obviously is stronger than she looks but they're still comparising a short, thin teenager to a, well, small but not as small adult. I'd assume Ema to be the stronger of them if I didn't know Trucy.

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It's funny how people are talking about sexism on this thread instead of racism.
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I'd rather they keep Social Justice out of Ace Attorney, I've never had a problem with their stereotypes, and I'll probably continue to not give a damn, I really don't think Ace Attorney needs to change when it comes to this specific subject matter.
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Quote:
I'd rather they keep Social Justice out of Ace Attorney, I've never had a problem with their stereotypes, and I'll probably continue to not give a damn, I really don't think Ace Attorney needs to change when it comes to this specific subject matter.

I, on the other hand, feel that AA is fairly free from stereotypes in most cases... compared to many other games and media, at least. Which I wouldn't really call "social justice" but rather good character-building (and a bit of common sense).
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To me, the games don't come off as being progressive for the sake of it. I think gender makes for a better discussion than race considering that Japan is less diverse racially than American and European nations. There are characters like Mia, where her design shows off her breasts, but she's much more than that, as a character. Even a character like April, who seems one-note at first, has a moment where she shows a different side and you can sympathize with her (the detention center scene, in which she is afraid of disobeying White).

So I'm not worried that a character from a minority race will be included for the sake of social justice.
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...and often "common sense" gets interpreted as "social justice". Talking about treating men and women with equal respect? Social justice, keep out, not the right place! Casually bringing skin colours up? Social justice, keep out, not the right place!

Now, then, this wasn't directed to anyone specific here, just a general thought after reading some of this. I just feel like completely fair points often gets the "social justice warrior"-treatment (this, also, wasn't directed to anyone here), and I don't think that's fair.

(And no, I don't like the stereotypical social justice warriors either because that's not even true "social justice" they're talking about, but THIS. This is not the right place to talk about such things, so no further comments about that matter from my side.)

Edit: I didn't see the post right before mine! I fully agree with his post, great one, great points. I don't know if I'd even written this post if it wasn't for the fact that I didn't see previous one.
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MBr wrote:
To me, the games don't come off as being progressive for the sake of it. I think gender makes for a better discussion than race considering that Japan is less diverse racially than American and European nations. There are characters like Mia, where her design shows off her breasts, but she's much more than that, as a character. Even a character like April, who seems one-note at first, has a moment where she shows a different side and you can sympathize with her (the detention center scene, in which she is afraid of disobeying White).

So I'm not worried that a character from a minority race will be included for the sake of social justice.



Precisely.
Both men and women get to be characters with more than one dimension (well... some characters are one-dimensional, but that's besides the point), but this is done in a very casual way. Same goes, I think, with Marlon Rimes, in terms of ethnicity.
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Going for Miles wrote:
MBr wrote:
To me, the games don't come off as being progressive for the sake of it. I think gender makes for a better discussion than race considering that Japan is less diverse racially than American and European nations. There are characters like Mia, where her design shows off her breasts, but she's much more than that, as a character. Even a character like April, who seems one-note at first, has a moment where she shows a different side and you can sympathize with her (the detention center scene, in which she is afraid of disobeying White).

So I'm not worried that a character from a minority race will be included for the sake of social justice.



Precisely.
Both men and women get to be characters with more than one dimension (well... some characters are one-dimensional, but that's besides the point), but this is done in a very casual way. Same goes, I think, with Marlon Rimes, in terms of ethnicity.


I have not played SOJ so I may not know who you'are talking about. But anyway I think it's great that a lot of characters have a lot of unique differences. Now there are some Mary Sue characters I'm sure but they're probably not as bad as fanfic writers make them. I'v always wondered this though. Are the characters in Phoenix Wright White or Asian because Phoenix Wright comes from Japan were most of the population is.
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:gant-clap:
I'm pretty glad everyone here is taking this issue with respect and maturity.
Now, I just wish to say one more thing bothering me.
Why are mibority's...called "minorites" it's like a treatment of second class citizens all over again.
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HeroMan66475 wrote:
:gant-clap:
I'm pretty glad everyone here is taking this issue with respect and maturity.
Now, I just wish to say one more thing bothering me.
Why are mibority's...called "minorites" it's like a treatment of second class citizens all over again.


I've always wondered why their called minorities too. Can someone explain why other races are called minorities?
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The Mechanic wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:
:gant-clap:
I'm pretty glad everyone here is taking this issue with respect and maturity.
Now, I just wish to say one more thing bothering me.
Why are mibority's...called "minorites" it's like a treatment of second class citizens all over again.


I've always wondered why their called minorities too. Can someone explain why other races are called minorities?


I have always wondered why myself.
That's what I was wondering.
Calling races minorities, is like some sort of hypocrite thing, a step back in human evoulution, it defeats the purpose of other races having equal rights.
You know what? I'm gonna state my race right now.
No doors closed.
I'm a Muslim.
You can kill me all you want, but it's not gonna hurt one bit.

So...does that mean I'm a minority?
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HeroMan66475 wrote:
The Mechanic wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:
:gant-clap:
I'm pretty glad everyone here is taking this issue with respect and maturity.
Now, I just wish to say one more thing bothering me.
Why are mibority's...called "minorites" it's like a treatment of second class citizens all over again.


I've always wondered why their called minorities too. Can someone explain why other races are called minorities?


I have always wondered why myself.
That's what I was wondering.
Calling races minorities, is like some sort of hypocrite thing, a step back in human evoulution, it defeats the purpose of other races having equal rights.
You know what? I'm gonna state my race right now.
No doors closed.
I'm a Muslim.
You can kill me all you want, but it's not gonna hurt one bit.

So...does that mean I'm a minority?


In the context of western culture it probably means you are in a minority. Minority in my eyes as a word doesn't equate to inferiority (except in numbers).

If the discussion were going on in a different part of the world then Caucasians would be a minority. I think Minority just means a smaller group, and then when we apply this term to people and culture. Nothing inferior or insulting about it I think but you seem to think it carries negative connotations.

I could spill a bag of smarties and have 25 blue ones and 20 red ones. I would have a majority of blue smarties and a minority of red. They'd both be the same sugar-coated chocolates with basically an identical taste. The only place majority really has connotations of worth I think is when it represents an opinion and even then the term "Majority rules" is a logical fallacy, just because one idea is commonly thought doesn't mean it's the right idea.
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Pierre wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:

I have always wondered why myself.
That's what I was wondering.
Calling races minorities, is like some sort of hypocrite thing, a step back in human evoulution, it defeats the purpose of other races having equal rights.
You know what? I'm gonna state my race right now.
No doors closed.
I'm a Muslim.
You can kill me all you want, but it's not gonna hurt one bit.

So...does that mean I'm a minority?


In the context of western culture it probably means you are in a minority. Minority in my eyes as a word doesn't equate to inferiority (except in numbers).

If the discussion were going on in a different part of the world then Caucasians would be a minority. I think Minority just means a smaller group, and then when we apply this term to people and culture. Nothing inferior or insulting about it I think but you seem to think it carries negative connotations.

I could spill a bag of smarties and have 25 blue ones and 20 red ones. I would have a majority of blue smarties and a minority of red. They'd both be the same sugar-coated chocolates with basically an identical taste. The only place majority really has connotations of worth I think is when it represents an opinion and even then the term "Majority rules" is a logical fallacy, just because one idea is commonly thought doesn't mean it's the right idea.


Uhhh.....okay?
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Going for Miles wrote:
Quote:
I'd rather they keep Social Justice out of Ace Attorney, I've never had a problem with their stereotypes, and I'll probably continue to not give a damn, I really don't think Ace Attorney needs to change when it comes to this specific subject matter.

I, on the other hand, feel that AA is fairly free from stereotypes in most cases... compared to many other games and media, at least. Which I wouldn't really call "social justice" but rather good character-building (and a bit of common sense).


I feel like many secondary characters are rather stereotyped. April May and Jean Armstrong are almost offensive to me as stereotypes of "sugar-daddy lover" and "french gay guy" respectively. Some secondary characters are so stereotyped that you can't even take them seriously, like Furio Tigre.

I would agree that stereotyping is not a issue among most of the major characters, though.
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HeroMan66475 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:

I have always wondered why myself.
That's what I was wondering.
Calling races minorities, is like some sort of hypocrite thing, a step back in human evoulution, it defeats the purpose of other races having equal rights.
You know what? I'm gonna state my race right now.
No doors closed.
I'm a Muslim.
You can kill me all you want, but it's not gonna hurt one bit.

So...does that mean I'm a minority?


In the context of western culture it probably means you are in a minority. Minority in my eyes as a word doesn't equate to inferiority (except in numbers).

If the discussion were going on in a different part of the world then Caucasians would be a minority. I think Minority just means a smaller group, and then when we apply this term to people and culture. Nothing inferior or insulting about it I think but you seem to think it carries negative connotations.

I could spill a bag of smarties and have 25 blue ones and 20 red ones. I would have a majority of blue smarties and a minority of red. They'd both be the same sugar-coated chocolates with basically an identical taste. The only place majority really has connotations of worth I think is when it represents an opinion and even then the term "Majority rules" is a logical fallacy, just because one idea is commonly thought doesn't mean it's the right idea.


Uhhh.....okay?


:nick-sweat: Why do I get the impression that you say that like everything I said was irrelevant.
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dangerousoffender wrote:
Going for Miles wrote:
Quote:
I'd rather they keep Social Justice out of Ace Attorney, I've never had a problem with their stereotypes, and I'll probably continue to not give a damn, I really don't think Ace Attorney needs to change when it comes to this specific subject matter.

I, on the other hand, feel that AA is fairly free from stereotypes in most cases... compared to many other games and media, at least. Which I wouldn't really call "social justice" but rather good character-building (and a bit of common sense).


I feel like many secondary characters are rather stereotyped. April May and Jean Armstrong are almost offensive to me as stereotypes of "sugar-daddy lover" and "french gay guy" respectively. Some secondary characters are so stereotyped that you can't even take them seriously, like Furio Tigre.

I would agree that stereotyping is not a issue among most of the major characters, though.


I can think of one on the spot!
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Pierre wrote:
:nick-sweat: Why do I get the impression that you say that like everything I said was irrelevant.

1) I am dumb
2) I am what is known as...an asshole.
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HeroMan66475 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
:nick-sweat: Why do I get the impression that you say that like everything I said was irrelevant.

1) I am dumb
2) I am what is known as...an asshole.


Acknowledgement of ignorance doesn't really excuse it.

Like I was saying, I don't think there's anything wrong with the word "minority" but if you want to drop the subject that's fine.
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dangerousoffender wrote:
Going for Miles wrote:
Quote:
I'd rather they keep Social Justice out of Ace Attorney, I've never had a problem with their stereotypes, and I'll probably continue to not give a damn, I really don't think Ace Attorney needs to change when it comes to this specific subject matter.

I, on the other hand, feel that AA is fairly free from stereotypes in most cases... compared to many other games and media, at least. Which I wouldn't really call "social justice" but rather good character-building (and a bit of common sense).


I feel like many secondary characters are rather stereotyped. April May and Jean Armstrong are almost offensive to me as stereotypes of "sugar-daddy lover" and "french gay guy" respectively. Some secondary characters are so stereotyped that you can't even take them seriously, like Furio Tigre.

I would agree that stereotyping is not a issue among most of the major characters, though.


Hm, I never saw April as a sugar-daddy-lover. Jean, on the other hand... yes, I think how he was portrayed was off. He's from what I recall the only guy to all but state he's attracted to guys (he at least seemed very happy talking about how Xin Eohp had flirted with him), and he's portrayed as a bit of a creep (although I kinda liked him) and very effeminate and... over the top. If his character is a stereotype, however, it's a stereotype I haven't seen. Something off, yes, but it never crossed my mind that it'd be stereotypical.
Edit: http://www.capcom-unity.com/zeroobjections/blog/2014/10/31/ace-attorney-trilogy---surprising-tidbits-you-never-knew Janet Hsu talks about him here. It seems to be a Japanese kind of... stereotype slash way of concept? I wasn't familiar with that, I did like Janet's take on him for the localization, though, even if I'd argue he still comes off as more one-dimensional than it seems like she had intended (dunno how he comes across in the original). I wasn't aware he had a persona either, but I will keep this in mind next time I play the case.
There are certainly many characters that are more like caricatures, but I'd make a difference between that and stereotypes. Most caricature-like characters, as far as I recall, aren't really stereotyping any certain group of people in that way, but correct me if I'm wrong.
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Last edited by Going for Miles on Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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um...hi your honour?

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Pierre wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
:nick-sweat: Why do I get the impression that you say that like everything I said was irrelevant.

1) I am dumb
2) I am what is known as...an asshole.


Acknowledgement of ignorance doesn't really excuse it.

Like I was saying, I don't think there's anything wrong with the word "minority" but if you want to drop the subject that's fine.


I just think, that the word "minority" is stupid, considering that the race wars are over.
No need.

The reason for it's usage is annoying.
"Minoritie" the word, is like a support to racism.
That is all for my nitpicking.


For now.
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Going for Miles wrote:

Hm, I never saw April as a sugar-daddy-lover. Jean, on the other hand... yes, I think how he was portrayed was off. He's from what I recall the only guy to all but state he's attracted to guys (he at least seemed very happy talking about how Xin Eohp had flirted with him), and he's portrayed as a bit of a creep (although I kinda liked him) and very effeminate and... over the top. If his character is a stereotype, however, it's a stereotype I haven't seen. Something off, yes, but it never crossed my mind that it'd be stereotypical.


I think April May is an American stereotype. I think :redd: is an American stereotype too. Like, I think GS1 is full of what I would call Americanized stereotypes. Will Powers for example. Nobody can tell me the guy looks Japanese. His design isn't Japanese-like at all. His hair. His body shape.

The trouble with Jean Armstrong is that the stereotype is so exaggerated, that it doesn't even look like a stereotype at all. But I would still call him stereotyped, in the sense of how his femininity is presented as "obnoxious and shallow".
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Ahh, true. You make good points. (I added a little to my previous post before you answered, but I don't know how much relevance any of that had xD)
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HeroMan66475 wrote:

I just think, that the word "minority" is stupid, considering that the race wars are over.
No need.

The reason for it's usage is annoying.
"Minoritie" the word, is like a support to racism.
That is all for my nitpicking.


For now.


The word is just used to refer to quantities. There's nothing inferior about being a minority and it's not about racism.

You can have a minority of houses sold, skittles, almost anything. It just means less than half.
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Re: Race in AATopic%20Title
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um...hi your honour?

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Pierre wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:

I just think, that the word "minority" is stupid, considering that the race wars are over.
No need.

The reason for it's usage is annoying.
"Minoritie" the word, is like a support to racism.
That is all for my nitpicking.


For now.


The word is just used to refer to quantities. There's nothing inferior about being a minority and it's not about racism.

You can have a minority of houses sold, skittles, almost anything. It just means less than half.


I think I understand now, still bugs me though.
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AA characters always start off as caricatures anyway; it's the revelations about them that turn them human.

People may often see Jean as an affront to gay culture, but he's certainly not intended to be. His design is based off of the stereotyped view the Japanese hold of France, seeing it as a very open country when it comes to love and romance. (What reality shows is a separate matter.) This includes an openness to sexuality and is by no means implied to be offensive.

That Jean himself turns out to be a less than exemplary character shows how he's not all smiles as he makes himself out as.

Also, one can never have a minority of skittles. They're everywhere...
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Hm. So there's more depth and thought to Jean's character than one might think at first glance. (Poor heroman: starts a thread about race in AA and suddenly it's about Jean Armstrong)
To me it seems that especially games do this a lot: start off with characters that seem like caricatures/stereotypes at first and then gives them unexpected personality traits and sides to them that gives them more depth. But I really don't think that's the case with all AA-characters. Not that many of them seemed like caricatures for me, eventually multifaceted or not.
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HeroMan66475 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
HeroMan66475 wrote:

I just think, that the word "minority" is stupid, considering that the race wars are over.
No need.

The reason for it's usage is annoying.
"Minoritie" the word, is like a support to racism.
That is all for my nitpicking.


For now.


The word is just used to refer to quantities. There's nothing inferior about being a minority and it's not about racism.

You can have a minority of houses sold, skittles, almost anything. It just means less than half.


I think I understand now, still bugs me though.


Well White people will be considered part of the minority by the year 2045, would that still bug you then? If not then you're a hypocrite, and if so then you might just want to stop nitpicking everything.
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How is Armstrong deep? He is basically the owner of a bad restaurant who is involved with criminal activities and is blackmailed because of it. He has secrets, but he isn't exactly psychologically deep. Like, at no moment of the game I thought, "whoa, I didn't expect this from him". No huge surprises about his personality.

His stereotype isn't about being French. I've always interpreted it as about being effeminate and French, 'cause he wants to establish a "French maiden" persona or something. Look at how France is associated with perfumes, roses and stuff.

I don't think it was meant to be offensive. I think it was meant to be funny, but it is obnoxious imo.
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