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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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I don't mind Kay, she was a good foil for Edgeworth. It's Trucy and Pearls I can't stand. Trucy was seven when her father abandoned her after using her for a quick get away and after all that she's perfectly fine to live with a stranger and never see her father again. Pearls is a stand in Maya when she's kidnapped or missing and worse...she's a shipper.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
I mostly agree with KingRaptor - Kay didn't really forgive Calisto. What I don't really understand is that Kay actually tried to take revenge against her, Calisto attacked her, and then she was like "nevermind, her heart was a cold and lonely place anyways" - or at least that's how it felt like to me. It's such a change from all the usual diehard avengers.


Well at that point, she had already realized that she wasn't exactly capable of getting her revenge anyway (with the whole gun-to-head thing...!) That and maybe seeing Badd and Lang's conflicting reactions towards Calisto helped Kay to see her more as a person, rather than the symbolic father-killer that she grew up hating.

Plus, Lang already took a bullet for Calisto. If getting to Calisto meant taking on Lang, can't blame Kay for backing down...! :keiko:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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It's time to do some serious analysis on characters!

Now then, what is a Mary Sue? We need to get this down before we can actually go and declare someone a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a character who completely overtakes the plot and makes all of the characters bow down and worship her, even if it is out of character for them, and is never wrong. In a game like Ace Attorney, for example, a Mary Sue would be a person who solves the case long before anyone else does, using evidence that really wouldn't fly in the series, all while having all the real attorneys and detectives forget their jobs and just delegate it to Ms. Sue.

Does Kay do that? The answer is no. Kay never once overtakes the plot to a massive degree, ends up solving the cases whenever she shows up, and nobody really acts out of character around her. Kay's like any assistant within the Ace Attorney games: Perky, excited, and willing to get involved within the cases. Most of the time the assistants don't do anything while the attorneys do the investigating, so maybe this is where it all comes down to: Kay actually has a part in the investigations. She has Little Thief, which was clearly said to be designed by her father and not her.

This Little Thief actually does come in handy, given that Edgey's team is nowhere near the size of Lang's brigade. This allows Edgey to recreate a crime scene without actually having to waste so much time rebuilding the crime scene by hand, and even explain some things that he might've missed had he not used it. Does this make it into Mary Sue material? No. There are obvious flaws that show up within the system, making it far from the perfect tool to recreate crime scenes. As Kay says, it can only work with the amount of data it is given, and it can't create things on a whim to fill on plot holes.

Now, I admit, some parts of Little Thief are a bit out there, like recreating the haunted house. However, this is explained in two ways: Number one, it's the future. Number two, it was specifically designed to help the Yatagarasu enter and get past guards and security systems. So, logically, it should've had that ability.

Does she at all become a Mary Sue if you do some serious analysis? Nope. She doesn't override the plot at all (in fact, she barely does anything except for Little Thief), nobody really acts out of character around her, and Little Thief isn't exactly out there, given who she got it from and what it was used for.

I admit that I haven't completed case 5 yet (though I am at End, part 2) but I haven't seen anything out there that said for her to be a Mary Sue. She's just another assistant who can actually do something. And in the end, assistants are there to, you know, HELP YOU, instead of just sitting around eating all your burgers while you do all the work. Maya didn't really do anything besides channel Mia and get into trouble a lot, and Trucy did even less (all she did was that one neat trick with Mr. Hat, as well as tell Apollo about that special power of his).

The final assistant, Ema, was actually pretty involved in the cases, but again, she delegated the majority of the work to Phoenix. Does this make her a Mary Sue? No. And she did almost as much as Kay, with even less of an impact on the plot.

And that, my friend, is how you pull off serious analysis of characters and see if they're Mary Sues or not.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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... am I supposed to clap? Quit puffing yourself up.

You're definition of Mary Sue is very extreme, and you seem to be using an if-you-aren't-an-apple-you're-a-banana approach to your 'analysis'. Just because she wasn't piloting the plot and and Edgey wasn't spitshining her shoes doesn't mean that she doesn't have qualities that people associate with Mary Sues, and that is what this thread is about. People have been providing examples all along of characters acting strangely for Kay's sake (in particular Franziska), and you just waltzing in and declaring NOPE NOBODY ACTED OUT OF CHARACTER NOT ONE BIT and not challenging those arguments does nothing for your case. Read the thread before you post and stop making yourself look like an ignoramus.

As for your argument that the Little Thief exists in the future and there is thus nothing wrong with it, I must remind you that it exists in a future where everyone still uses VCRs and video cassettes. The Ace Attorney series takes place in the future to justify the weird court system, not a hologram device pulled straight out of Star Trek.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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General Tommy wrote:
Now then, what is a Mary Sue? We need to get this down before we can actually go and declare someone a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a character who completely overtakes the plot and makes all of the characters bow down and worship her, even if it is out of character for them, and is never wrong. In a game like Ace Attorney, for example, a Mary Sue would be a person who solves the case long before anyone else does, using evidence that really wouldn't fly in the series, all while having all the real attorneys and detectives forget their jobs and just delegate it to Ms. Sue.


I assumed a Mary-Sue was a run of the mill character that showed the same traits as most characters in their stereotype do, yet they're much better than those other characters. They're ideal characters put into their particular role, so ideal that they're predictable (eg. Princess Leia from Star Wars) and often show traits that are particularly impossible for the character archetype that they portray.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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drama drama drama it seems nobody can agree on what a Mary Sue really is (as usual) drama drama drama

I'll say this again: Having a few, or even many Sue traits doesn't necessarily make a character a Mary Sue, otherwise we'd have to create one of this thread each for a good two-thirds of the recurring cast.
In fact, even being a genuine Sue, or something close to it, doesn't necessarily make that character unlikable (which is why all of us adore Edgeworth). Before you say it: Being emo/angsty is so overused as a character flaw, especially when it comes across as a Freudian Excuse or Single Issue Psychology (DL-6 elevator anyone?), it honestly shouldn't count in this regard.

On Franziska's reaction to Kay being a Sue flag:
In my opinion, this is based on a very one-dimensional view of Franziska - namely her "whip everything that moves, twice if it's getting in my way" aspect - that's really holding back her character development. I liked her best in AAI-5 (and to a lesser extent, 3-5) where she actually shows discretion in her whipping, instead of letting people who don't fight back constantly have it because she's OMG A BULLY.
Why does everyone seem to forget than she can have empathy and/or a sense of companionship for people other than little brother Miles? As Croik pointed out, Lang calls her "sis" and she's perfectly fine with it. Where exactly did the Franziska/Adrian ship originate from, a vacuum? She has even more reason to sympathize with Kay in AAI-4, given that at that point they both looked up to their fathers as larger-than-life role models (albeit in very different directions), not to mention that being her usual self towards a ten-year-old girl who's lost her father less than an hour ago would cross the line into wanton cruelty even for Franziska, and even then she still insults Kay as soon as she's out of earshot.

Truth be told, I think it's very good that the writers are learning to reserve Franziska's whip (and general hostile behavior) for appropriate situations and the occasional comic relief, rather than leaving her as the Jerk Sue who never gets punished for her indiscriminate abuse of other people.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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KingRaptor wrote:
On Franziska's reaction to Kay being a Sue flag:
In my opinion, this is based on a very one-dimensional view of Franziska - namely her "whip everything that moves, twice if it's getting in my way" aspect - that's really holding back her character development. I liked her best in AAI-5 (and to a lesser extent, 3-5) where she actually shows discretion in her whipping, instead of letting people who don't fight back constantly have it because she's OMG A BULLY.
Why does everyone seem to forget than she can have empathy and/or a sense of companionship for people other than little brother Miles? As Croik pointed out, Lang calls her "sis" and she's perfectly fine with it. Where exactly did the Franziska/Adrian ship originate from, a vacuum? She has even more reason to sympathize with Kay in AAI-4, given that at that point they both looked up to their fathers as larger-than-life role models (albeit in very different directions), not to mention that being her usual self towards a ten-year-old girl who's lost her father less than an hour ago would cross the line into wanton cruelty even for Franziska, and even then she still insults Kay as soon as she's out of earshot.

Truth be told, I think it's very good that the writers are learning to reserve Franziska's whip (and general hostile behavior) for appropriate situations and the occasional comic relief, rather than leaving her as the Jerk Sue who never gets punished for her indiscriminate abuse of other people.


I mean, look at who Franziska whips in JFA and T&T:

Phoenix
Det. Gumshoe
Lotta Hart (totally justified)
Ini Miney (only once that I remember, when Ini gets upset over Franziska allowing Phoenix to continue the trial)
Ben & Trilo (totally justified)
Moe (totally justified)
Dr. Hotti (totally beyond justified)
Larry Butz (totally justified)

As for witnesses Franziska doesn't whip:

Morgan Fey
Acro
Bikini

Other than Phoenix and Gumshoe (who Franziska still had good reasons to dislike. Phoenix was the guy who hurt her little brother's feelings and made him fake his own suicide. Gumshoe screwed up all the time), the other people were annoying and totally in-character for Franziska to whip them, but with the other people, Franziska was respectful, even courteous. And when Pearl was rescued in T&T-5, Franziska was super nice to her and was visibly upset when Pearl hated her.

Franziska's reaction to Kay fits her character, or at the very least, not as glaringly OoC as some people seem to think. She's not some unfocused ball of hatred and loathing. She is a tightly focused ray of hatred and loathing who is a perfectly pleasant person to be around if you aren't caught in the hate-ray.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I didn't like Kay when she first showed up (oh great, another Genki girl), but I ended up finding her to be alright. I wondered at first why Edgey would let her follow him too, but as others have said, he just gave up trying to deter her. and besides, it's not like she's just a random girl he met just now, they did have a history, and she has a reason to follow him in his investigations. And he probably feels sympathy towards her due to what happened to his own dad in the same courthouse (man that courthouse is deadly!).

With Little Thief, I think it's a plot device / game mechanic as well, and you have to suspend your belief a little bit in regards to the reality of that (just like Spirit Channeling).. but Kay doesn't actually need to do much it seems, just put in a few parameters and hit Go.

As for the plot revolving around her, I don't think that's the case. Yes she's a vital part of the plot and is involved with a lot, but it's not *about* her (it's more about the smuggling ring). It's like how many cases in PW revolves around Maya (and the Fey girls in general), 1-5 digs up Ema's past, and AJ has plot around Trucy, AAI has plot that revolves around Kay, to give her more history and relevance, which I don't see why it's a bad thing.

It may seem that "everyone likes her", but it's really just Edgey, who lets her tag along and occassionally asks for help with Little Thief, Franzy in that one instance (the rest of the investigation/cases she pretty much ignores her and groups her with Gumshoe), Gumshoe who doesn't have a mean bone in his body, and Detective Badd who's like a surrogate father to Kay. (and probably Butz, who gets heart-eyed over every girl, even Pearl, anyway) You don't see people who just met her like Lang or Palaeno fawning over her.

I agree with Icarus and KingRaptor's views on Franziska, she doesn't whip everyone she meets, esp women and children, and people she's probably scared of (she doesn't whip Godot, even though he insults her, instead, she takes her anger out on Phoenix). At you have to remember that in AAI-4 she's only 13 herself, and the only people she picks on this time is Edgey, who she knows well and knows he doesn't take it seriously, and Gumshoe, because well, he's Gumshoe. She doesn't whip Calisto Yew or Detective Badd. Besides, a 10-year-old girl cries in front of you, what are you going to do, rub salt in the wound? Franziska isn't heartless like that.

Kay fills the Genki Girl assistant role that all previous AA games had (with a Thief flavour instead of Magician, Scientist of Spirit Channeler), and she's not any worse than her predecessors. Perhaps fans are less forgiving of her because Edgey is supposed to be the cold fish who doesn't put up with genki girls, and all of a sudden this girl has him warming up to her, and he adamantly defends her against accusations despite being insulted etc. I don't Edgey is as cold as fans perhaps perceive him to be. He puts up with Franzy, who, even though acts tough, is still just a little girl without her whip.

I think Kay's a good foil for Edgey's seriousness, and helps bring out his softer side (which I found is a bit like Nick in his sarcasm). As much as I love Edgey-Franziska dynamic, Franzy has her own work to do and can't follow Edgey around while he's investigating. And it's not like you don't do any investigating with her. Kay isn't the only assistant that Edgey gets, his partner changes depending on the case and what he's investigating.

I do kinda wish they would break out of the Genki Girl assistant mould though, maybe Capcom feels bad that Phoenix and Apollo both got their Genki Girls and Edgey is left out of that loop XD
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Marshmello there's no reason to get hostile. General Tommy's definition of Sue is a very old-school one. In the "old days" Mary Sue mostly applied to super perfect happy genki girls, which is why lots of fic authors started giving their OCs "flaws" in order to slip outside the label. The more that happens, the more the Sue label swells in order to keep those OCs within its definition.

It's hard to pin down what is and is not a definite sue now that fandom has evolved, but if you go only by the oldest set of guidelines, Kay just doesn't fit. She doesn't control enough of the plot for it. It's a perfectly valid stance to take (though certainly not the only one).
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Marshmello wrote:
... am I supposed to clap? Quit puffing yourself up.

You're definition of Mary Sue is very extreme, and you seem to be using an if-you-aren't-an-apple-you're-a-banana approach to your 'analysis'. Just because she wasn't piloting the plot and and Edgey wasn't spitshining her shoes doesn't mean that she doesn't have qualities that people associate with Mary Sues, and that is what this thread is about. People have been providing examples all along of characters acting strangely for Kay's sake (in particular Franziska), and you just waltzing in and declaring NOPE NOBODY ACTED OUT OF CHARACTER NOT ONE BIT and not challenging those arguments does nothing for your case. Read the thread before you post and stop making yourself look like an ignoramus.

As for your argument that the Little Thief exists in the future and there is thus nothing wrong with it, I must remind you that it exists in a future where everyone still uses VCRs and video cassettes. The Ace Attorney series takes place in the future to justify the weird court system, not a hologram device pulled straight out of Star Trek.

And apparently you are forgetting that a Mary Sue isn't one with extreme fancy qualities, it is someone who completely overtakes the plot and is far more awesome than anybody else in the storyline and nobody challenges the flaws they have or they don't even try to re-take the plot.

Learn 2 trope.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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^And we should take everything TVtropes says seriously because...?

If you put it that way, I should believe every word Encyclopedia Dramatica says? Without question or doubt? Without thinking outside of the box? Overlooking the snark? I still stand by the belief that Kay was a rather exceptional AA character. Not a Sue, but exceptional.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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TVTropes wrote:
There's no consensus on a precise definition. The closest thing to a widely agreed-on definition is a character who has too many positive characteristics, and too few genuine flaws to be believable or interesting.

Now leave poor TVTropes alone before this argument implodes.

I think we can all agree that Kay isn't a complete Sue who commands the plot and makes everyone worship her, etc. We're here to define what Sue-ish qualities Kay has, and whether they push her into the territory of a Mary Sue or if she's just an underdeveloped character.

So, points of debate:
--Kay makes other characters (mainly Edgeworth and Franziska) act OOC
--Kay has no believable personality, or at the very least is inconsistent
Spoiler: case 4
--Kay saves Edgeworth's life

--Kay has uber programming skills and
Spoiler: case 5
manages to bluff her way out of a confrontation, despite having shown no former skills of the sort

Spoiler: case 5
--Kay "forgives" Shih-na, her father's killer


Feel free to correct me if I missed anything out, which I almost certainly have :yogi:

Personally, I think the fact that Kay is a thief does affect this debate. Yes, Trucy is a magician and Maya is a spirit medium, but it seems to me that a thief is widely regarded as cooler than both of those two - breaking and entering, climbing around high places, etc.

Also, Kay leads an extremely idealized sort of life without much responsibility - Maya has to train to become the Master; misfortune befalls Ema in GS4; Trucy has to work for her family. Kay, on the other hand, can just wander around wherever she likes and pretty much do whatever she wants.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
Kay has uber programming skills

Point of contention there: We never actually see Kay doing anything that would definitely require great programming skills. We don't get to see Little Thief's scene reconstruction software up close, so for all we know it could have a really easy-to-use GUI, at least for the parts that we see her using it for (load a scene from entered data, place some static objects, display). Adding new objects not in the program's data banks would be trickier, but with a modular format and an simple modeling app, anyone could do it with a manual and a few hours of practice. (Note that the objects we see in Little Thief's recreations are all simple, untextured models - easy to make.) Or, even easier way: An off-the-shelf 3D scanner (example of one using just a webcam and software).

Byrne probably designed Little Thief exclusively for his own use (unless he thought Yew and Badd needed to be able to use it as well), so it's likely he went for ease of (developer) programming rather than user-friendliness, but it still probably wouldn't require significantly more programming skill than, say, making a PW fangame using one of the casemakers listed in Court Records' Games subforum. It stands to reason that Kay would probably have at least some programming (and/or electronics) knowledge to maintain Little Thief and maybe add new features, but it doesn't need to be on the professional level.
Spoiler: Because the thought is amusing
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Though I must say I'm rather annoyed that they didn't have enough attention to detail to make the time she spends inputting the data something approaching realistic. She gets the blueprints to a room, presses three buttons and can render the scene perfectly? I mean, we probably don't need or want to watch every step she takes, but make the screen fade to black for the "wait" or something! Damn lazy storywriters these days...
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
^And we should take everything TVtropes says seriously because...?

If you put it that way, I should believe every word Encyclopedia Dramatica says? Without question or doubt? Without thinking outside of the box? Overlooking the snark? I still stand by the belief that Kay was a rather exceptional AA character. Not a Sue, but exceptional.

It appears that nobody here seems to enjoy a calm debate. All I said was that she really isn't a Sue.

In fact, to counter the whole "illogical future" thing, I may need to give a reminder that this is a future where spirit channeling exists and can radically alter physical appearances, and also where there are some bracelets that allow extreme close-ups to see nervous twitches.

In fact, Little Thief sounds more believable than those other two. Don't get me wrong, it isn't completely believable, but certainly more than those two. Also, like others have pointed out, Franzy isn't a concentrated ball of whip everything in sight. She only whips people if it is justified or if they really, really annoy her. I have yet to see anything Kay would've done that could get Franzy annoyed.

Finally, I do agree that there are some things that don't make a lot of sense, like the fact that she can broadly walk around proclaiming to be a thief yet not get in trouble. That's a bit odd, but certainly less odd than...Franzy carrying a whip to court and never being held in contempt of court for whipping just about anyone there, like the judge.

I wouldn't say that Kay isn't a great character, there are several flaws in the design, but she isn't precisely the worst character I've seen in the series. In fact, I found it rather easy to ignore most of the flaws that she had. I do agree that while she isn't a Sue, she is a rather exceptional character. Perhaps this is where the problem lies. It's hard to tell the difference between "Exceptional" and "Mary Sue" unless you really do some hardcore analysis of characters.
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I wouldn't really say her walking around declaring herself a thief and getting away with it is a serious problem...
For one thing by her...distinctly childish attitude and lack of actually stealing anything it's kinda hard to believe her or take her seriously when she proclaims that.
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
So, points of debate:
--Kay makes other characters (mainly Edgeworth and Franziska) act OOC
--Kay has no believable personality, or at the very least is inconsistent
Spoiler: case 4
--Kay saves Edgeworth's life

--Kay has uber programming skills and
Spoiler: case 5
manages to bluff her way out of a confrontation, despite having shown no former skills of the sort

Spoiler: case 5
--Kay "forgives" Shih-na, her father's killer


Feel free to correct me if I missed anything out, which I almost certainly have :yogi:

Also, Kay leads an extremely idealized sort of life without much responsibility - Maya has to train to become the Master; misfortune befalls Ema in GS4; Trucy has to work for her family. Kay, on the other hand, can just wander around wherever she likes and pretty much do whatever she wants.


To be fair, we see Kay over the course of two days. If she has school, if she "trains" at being Yatagarasu, if she has a challenging home life - these things are not touched on because she exists in a very small bubble of time. With Maya and Trucy we're shown them at different points in a full year, so the writers need to explain what they do from month to month. For all we know Kay was on a weekend vacation.

If you looked at Maya in just 1-2 or the days surrounding it, it would look like she lives a pretty responsibility-free life, too. She was shirking her training, living on her own probably on someone else's dime, not working except to play detective with Phoenix. I'm not putting Maya down, I'm just saying, in AAI we know Kay is only there for Yatagarasu so there wasn't any reason to go into what she would do if she weren't.
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General Tommy wrote:
In fact, to counter the whole "illogical future" thing, I may need to give a reminder that this is a future where spirit channeling exists and can radically alter physical appearances, and also where there are some bracelets that allow extreme close-ups to see nervous twitches.


Sorry, but what do those have anything to do with the future?

Quote:
Also, like others have pointed out, Franzy isn't a concentrated ball of whip everything in sight. She only whips people if it is justified or if they really, really annoy her. I have yet to see anything Kay would've done that could get Franzy annoyed.


Like when she keeps declaring she's the "real" Yatagarasu and that she's out to steal something in almost every dialogue box?

Quote:
Finally, I do agree that there are some things that don't make a lot of sense, like the fact that she can broadly walk around proclaiming to be a thief yet not get in trouble. That's a bit odd, but certainly less odd than...Franzy carrying a whip to court and never being held in contempt of court for whipping just about anyone there, like the judge.


Franziska's not entitled to carry a whip as a prosecutor. She carries it as a noteworthy genius that deserves and demands respect. She hauls her weight around, true to her title as the von Karma successor. Kay doesn't do many thief-ey things, and her basic idea about Yatagarasu is that he's a thief of truth, a vigilante and "a modern day Robin Hood." And she likes focusing on his modus operandi too much. Will screenshot a sample soon.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that Kay isn't a great character, there are several flaws in the design, but she isn't precisely the worst character I've seen in the series. In fact, I found it rather easy to ignore most of the flaws that she had. I do agree that while she isn't a Sue, she is a rather exceptional character. Perhaps this is where the problem lies. It's hard to tell the difference between "Exceptional" and "Mary Sue" unless you really do some hardcore analysis of characters.


For me, the simplest definition of a Sue is not "a self-insert" or "self-fulfillment fantasy", because the former is done once or twice by great authors who don't push it and the latter is often done in certain cheesy romance novels that almost no one cares about unless they're crazy teenage fangirls or depressed housewives(coughtwilightcoughmarysuegalorecough). "Raunchy and ridiculous", that's my Sue definition. Well, Kay isn't raunchy but she's 3 feet past the borderline of ridiculous all right. I liked Maya from the beginning, got annoyed with her sometimes but I was never bothered by her being there. Ema grew on me eventually, I liked Trucy's free-spirited personality. But playing AAI, I couldn't count the number of times I rolled my eyes whenever Kay showed up. Maybe she's OK in your books but not in mine.
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Arti_Rei wrote:
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Also, like others have pointed out, Franzy isn't a concentrated ball of whip everything in sight. She only whips people if it is justified or if they really, really annoy her. I have yet to see anything Kay would've done that could get Franzy annoyed.


Like when she keeps declaring she's the "real" Yatagarasu and that she's out to steal something in almost every dialogue box?

Actually, I don't think Franziska was even on the scene for most or all of those dialogue events (especially given that she never appears in Case 3, and is in the same room as Kay for only short periods of time in Case 5) to begin with. Regardless, it seems she only whips other women if they're directly impeding the progress of one of her trials in court (Ini, Lotta),so while Kay's behavior may annoy the player, it's not reason enough for Franziska to use the whip.

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Finally, I do agree that there are some things that don't make a lot of sense, like the fact that she can broadly walk around proclaiming to be a thief yet not get in trouble. That's a bit odd, but certainly less odd than...Franzy carrying a whip to court and never being held in contempt of court for whipping just about anyone there, like the judge.

Franziska's not entitled to carry a whip as a prosecutor. She carries it as a noteworthy genius that deserves and demands respect. She hauls her weight around, true to her title as the von Karma successor.

Can't agree here. Reckless violence towards others (especially whipping Phoenix unconscious for defeating her) really doesn't go with "deserves and demands respect" or being the von Karma successor; when not done for laughs it just comes off as bullying (not to mention being, unlike saying you're a thief when you haven't stolen anything, an actual criminal offense). It's also a step down from both Manfred, who needed no violence or threats thereof to intimidate Udgey into obedience, and Edgeworth, who didn't need to manipulate the judge overtly at all.

On that note: Why is it that Udgey finds the spine to stand up to Manfred von Karma halfway through 1-4 when it's clear that something is going on, but I can't recall him ever ordering Franziska to stay her hand for once?
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Arti_Rei wrote:
For me, the simplest definition of a Sue is not "a self-insert" or "self-fulfillment fantasy".


But...AAI was written entirely by adult men. :gregory:
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KingRaptor wrote:
Can't agree here. Reckless violence towards others (especially whipping Phoenix unconscious for defeating her) really doesn't go with "deserves and demands respect" or being the von Karma successor; when not done for laughs it just comes off as bullying (not to mention being, unlike saying you're a thief when you haven't stolen anything, an actual criminal offense). It's also a step down from both Manfred, who needed no violence or threats thereof to intimidate Udgey into obedience, and Edgeworth, who didn't need to manipulate the judge overtly at all.


Oh I know that one's over-the-top. I'm implying that this is what Franziska believes she should do to get respect and demand perfection, which is how far she's gone as a prodigy. She whips Gumshoe when she thinks he's slacking off and probably whips half the force for "being too idle". This was in JFA, and she came off as a bossy, oppressive perfectionist who seemed to want all there is to make her a real von Karma. But her motive was to catch up to Edgeworth, and baws a bit at the airport about how he'll never understand what it means to be the von Karma successor. Which we can guess is a heavy responsibility after her father's prosecuting record and fame, no way could she fail him. She was in that sense, very insecure and a little uncertain about her direction deep down. Whipping people was probably her cover-up for her weaknesses.

Quote:
On that note: Why is it that Udgey finds the spine to stand up to Manfred von Karma halfway through 1-4 when it's clear that something is going on, but I can't recall him ever ordering Franziska to stay her hand for once?


Because Manny didn't have a whip.

Croik wrote:
But...AAI was written entirely by adult men.


Croik, I said "not" :sadshoe:
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Arti_Rei wrote:
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On that note: Why is it that Udgey finds the spine to stand up to Manfred von Karma halfway through 1-4 when it's clear that something is going on, but I can't recall him ever ordering Franziska to stay her hand for once?


Because Manny didn't have a whip.

Although he did have a taser. :karma:

Croik wrote:
To be fair, we see Kay over the course of two days. If she has school, if she "trains" at being Yatagarasu, if she has a challenging home life - these things are not touched on because she exists in a very small bubble of time. With Maya and Trucy we're shown them at different points in a full year, so the writers need to explain what they do from month to month. For all we know Kay was on a weekend vacation.

If you looked at Maya in just 1-2 or the days surrounding it, it would look like she lives a pretty responsibility-free life, too. She was shirking her training, living on her own probably on someone else's dime, not working except to play detective with Phoenix. I'm not putting Maya down, I'm just saying, in AAI we know Kay is only there for Yatagarasu so there wasn't any reason to go into what she would do if she weren't.

I guess that sort of makes sense... Although, Kay still doesn't seem to have much going on in her life to me. At least Maya occasionally mentioned that she needed to train her spiritual powers - Kay barely ever talks about anything other than the Yatagarasu and FUN.
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Croik wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
For me, the simplest definition of a Sue is not "a self-insert" or "self-fulfillment fantasy".


But...AAI was written entirely by adult men. :gregory:


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lol, oops. My bad.

Though I'm not sure what "raunchy and ridiculous" has to do with being a Sue either. What does that even mean? If "ridiculous" is enough then I nominate the entire AA cast, for serious.

"I don't like her" is still not enough for a character to be deemed a Sue, especially when dealing with canon.

I'm getting the feeling there's not much left to say in this debate...
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Arti_Rei wrote:
General Tommy wrote:
In fact, to counter the whole "illogical future" thing, I may need to give a reminder that this is a future where spirit channeling exists and can radically alter physical appearances, and also where there are some bracelets that allow extreme close-ups to see nervous twitches.


Sorry, but what do those have anything to do with the future?
I concur, it has little to do with the future. I was merely counteracting the point that said that this is a future that still uses VCRs and tapes with "It also has working magic and pseudo-magic".

And I agree, there really isn't much else to debate here. We have almost completely proven that Kay, while a little bit over-the-top, is not exactly a Mary Sue.
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I really disliked her character as well.

Spoiler:
When Shih-na had a gun to her head my response was...
:lana: Oh no. Please, stop.


Maybe I'm just sick of underage girls following me around in every game.

...Ema and lil' Franziska are acceptable.
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General Tommy wrote:
And I agree, there really isn't much else to debate here. We have almost completely proven that Kay, while a little bit over-the-top, is not exactly a Mary Sue.


I think that in itself is debatable! XD

On the contrary, I feel several points for her BEING a Sue have been brought up.

But hey, agree to disagree and all that~

Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Honestly I liked Kay. I thought she was underused, but I never thought of her as a sue character.

I mean no offense, but honestly if she's getting the sue label I'm blaming Edgey Fanaticism for that. After all had Kay been more developed or had it been any type of new girl whatsoever. No matter how developed that person is they would have been hated because of being paired up with Edgeworth. Who I'd say IS pretty much the most popular character in the series, and the most loved by the fandom. In a way it doesn't surprise me at all that there is fandom backlash against Kay when she's living the dream of all Edgey fanatics fanboy and fangirl alike... Well probably fangirls more...

Again no real offense or anything meant by this. It's just my observation.


I don't know about that. I think Rhoda disproves that, as a lot of people *liked* her interactions with Edgeworth. Thing is, even in their brief time together, their interactions seemed more genuine. Even with Edgeworth believing in her and fighting for her innocence, he still seemed very much like Edgeworth.

Letting some random teenage girl he doesn't even remember, whom keeps mocking him and threatening to steal things, tromp all around his CRIME scene? Not so much...
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pleadingeyes wrote:
General Tommy wrote:
And I agree, there really isn't much else to debate here. We have almost completely proven that Kay, while a little bit over-the-top, is not exactly a Mary Sue.


I think that in itself is debatable! XD

On the contrary, I feel several points for her BEING a Sue have been brought up.

But hey, agree to disagree and all that~

True, points have been brought up, and points have been shot down. She does skirt the line, but she isn't a Sue, at least not in my eyes. However, the only truly unbelievable thing I see about her is Little Thief, but then again, Little Thief doesn't seem terribly out of place when you compare it to say...spirit channeling...or Apollo's bracelet...or the fact that they still use VCRs despite the game series being made in 2001 (I'm not sure, but I'm fairly positive that VCRs were going out of style by 2001, and it makes even less sense when we examine the fact that AA in the English release is supposed to be in the future...)...actually, a lot of the AA 'verse isn't terribly logical when closely examined, it's mostly just on Rule of Cool and Rule of Drama.

While it does seem like her personality flip-flops, I don't see it being extreme. Actually, I think that most of the hate leveled at her is because of the fact that she is just another Genki Girl that can do something to help and she's working with Edgeworth. Maybe it also has something to do with the fact that she doesn't have a terribly large amount of screentime, so it's hard to put in enough character development for her without making it seem like she can't decide who she is.

Either way, she doesn't detract a lot from the story, so I can give her a pass.
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pleadingeyes wrote:
I don't know about that. I think Rhoda disproves that, as a lot of people *liked* her interactions with Edgeworth. Thing is, even in their brief time together, their interactions seemed more genuine. Even with Edgeworth believing in her and fighting for her innocence, he still seemed very much like Edgeworth.

Letting some random teenage girl he doesn't even remember, whom keeps mocking him and threatening to steal things, tromp all around his CRIME scene? Not so much...


Yeah, Rhoda proves that Edgeworth can be linked to a new character in a way the fans don't hate.

Franziska and Shi-Long Lang prove that characters can be a pain in the ass to Edgeworth and the fans won't hate them.

The reason a lot of fans don't like Kay because she's a rehashed version of characters we liked a lot more the first time around. Hell, she gets upstaged by five minutes of Ema because pretty much everyone remembers Ema and liked her a lot more than we like the pale imitation known as Kay Faraday. She's not a Sue, she's just a lame character. Rhoda Teneiro? IMO, there's actually a stronger case for her being a Sue, but she's a likable character, so nobody really seems to mind.
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Icarus wrote:
The reason a lot of fans don't like Kay because she's a rehashed version of characters we liked a lot more the first time around.


This seems contradictory. Wouldn't the fans like Kay because she has many qualities of previous female assistants?
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Icarus wrote:
The reason a lot of fans don't like Kay because she's a rehashed version of characters we liked a lot more the first time around.


This seems contradictory. Wouldn't the fans like Kay because she has many qualities of previous female assistants?


Not necessarily. Subtle differences between the assistants do exist, even if many people like to label them all as the "genki girl" stereotype and claim they're not really that different. There may not be large differences between them, but the little, precise things they say and do make different impressions on different people, and that's why many of us prefer one assistant over another.
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Icarus wrote:
Rhoda Teneiro? IMO, there's actually a stronger case for her being a Sue, but she's a likable character, so nobody really seems to mind.


If you really think so, I'm not sure what definition of Sue you're drawing from. Why does this term keep expanding...!? :beef:
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pleadingeyes wrote:

Letting some random teenage girl he doesn't even remember, whom keeps mocking him and threatening to steal things, tromp all around his CRIME scene? Not so much...


Exactly. This was so very out of character for Edgeworth, epiphany or not, he's still a responsible prosecutor. I don't understand why he was so lenient with her; she wasn't exactly close to him.


Spoiler: Minor Case 5 Spoilers?
Especially when Edgeworth was about to give up, and Kay objected. I nearly snapped my DS in half when that happened. It was supposed to be his moment, and Kay had to come in and save the day? No! NO! It was all wrong...Kay, you're only a teen. You should not be able to make a better decision than Edgeworth.

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Croik wrote:
Icarus wrote:
Rhoda Teneiro? IMO, there's actually a stronger case for her being a Sue, but she's a likable character, so nobody really seems to mind.


If you really think so, I'm not sure what definition of Sue you're drawing from. Why does this term keep expanding...!? :beef:



I don't really think she is a Sue, I just think somebody could make an argument for it that's stronger than the frankly pretty weak argument for Kay being a Sue.

And as for Rhoda, there's Sue elements, like the main character just met her and is fighting so hard for her (especially since we're not used to seeing Edgeworth fighting for the release of a suspect), and she has a crush on the main character but the main character doesn't notice (See the Twilight Saga, a story of a Mary Sue that launched a thousand other Mary Sues) and nobody likes her art, giving her an excellent excuse for some angst. That doesn't make her a Sue, even though there are plenty of Mary Sues who have qualities like that.


My point's the same as yours, that people throw around the term "Mary Sue" too easily and it's easy to find elements of Mary Sue-ism in a lot of characters both well-written and poorly-written, but that doesn't necessarily make them Sues. I guess I kinda suck at making a point clearly before I start rambling about mildly related stuff that just makes my point harder to understand.
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Icarus wrote:
My point's the same as yours, that people throw around the term "Mary Sue" too easily and it's easy to find elements of Mary Sue-ism in a lot of characters both well-written and poorly-written, but that doesn't necessarily make them Sues. I guess I kinda suck at making a point clearly before I start rambling about mildly related stuff that just makes my point harder to understand.

This sums up my thoughts. That's why I'm only going with the "completely derides the story" version. Makes it a lot easier to identify, instead of simply haphazardly tossing around the label to anyone who has some elements.
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Arthas wrote:
A sue is a character that is the author's darling, that always gets their way, never gets hurt no matter what happens, has awesome powers nobody else has, gets the main role of the story and succeeds with no effort in whatever it is they're doing.


Iwamoto wrote:
The very first character we made for AAI. Though it's obvious if you look at the sketches, we redesigned her over and over. We grasped her look once we stuck to a Japanese theme and when we pumped her with energy, we finally got it.


Discussé.
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
pleadingeyes wrote:

Letting some random teenage girl he doesn't even remember, whom keeps mocking him and threatening to steal things, tromp all around his CRIME scene? Not so much...


Exactly. This was so very out of character for Edgeworth, epiphany or not, he's still a responsible prosecutor. I don't understand why he was so lenient with her; she wasn't exactly close to him.


Spoiler: Minor Case 5 Spoilers?
Especially when Edgeworth was about to give up, and Kay objected. I nearly snapped my DS in half when that happened. It was supposed to be his moment, and Kay had to come in and save the day? No! NO! It was all wrong...Kay, you're only a teen. You should not be able to make a better decision than Edgeworth.


For that last part...didn't EVERYONE in the case do exactly the same thing? There are about 20 million unnecessary Objections in the last part of case 5! :redd:

As for Edgeworth "allowing" Kay on the crime scene, let's not forget that in case 3 Edgeworth wasn't supposed to be there, either. It wasn't his case, it was Interpol's--it was professional courtesy alone that Lang "allowed" Edgeworth to stick around (which, as some people have already pointed out, in itself seems out of character for Lang). He didn't exactly have the authority to eject her. Plus Edgeworth did try several times to get Kay to leave, but she insisted, and eventually it was easier for him to keep her around and have his eye on her than let her wander around by herself.

Plus it's not like Edgeworth has ever protested Phoenix's use of teenaged girls around his crime scenes. Maya, Ema, even Pearl in 2-4; 9 year old Pearl was there to hear Adrian confess that she tried to kill herself. Maya and Ema both appeared in court as Phoenix's assistants (against Edgeworth) even though they had no business being there.

Unless you're saying he should have gotten rid of her purely on the basis of being annoying, in which case... it's not like he's not used to that, either! Not with Franziska and Gumshoe around! Putting up with annoying teenaged girls has got to be second nature to him by now.
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I think that Kay was a great character. I wasn't annoyed at all during the entire time I was playing. I thought it was just part of the whimsy that the game seems to have <Like Von Karma whipping everybody through out the games> and other stuff like that. The interactions between everybody in this game were fun and I found nothing annoying about them. After analyzing the events in the game, I think Kay was meant to "melt" the "ice around Edgeworth's heart" judging by how he got more lenient with Gumshoe while the game progressed. For example, by the end of the game, he was saying "salary negotiations" instead of "salary cut", which implies that he would allow Gumshoe to redeem himself instead of just getting an instant cut to his salary like he use to do. I saw a lot of little things like that and thought it was great. I didn't think anybody would ever effect Edgeworth's personality that much. He did change in previous games from those events, although it was more like since he found out the truth of those events, he was freed from some kind of thing that was tormenting him and making him antagonistic to the other characters.

I think Kay might end up his girlfriend in the future based on my analysis. At least somebody got a girlfriend, I felt kind of bad for Wright when he didn't end up with anybody, kind of sad I think.

Didn't at the end of this game, when they were showing each character talking during the credits, I saw something interesting. It was the judge guy, said something like "that prosecutor teamed up with a thief and went to become an investigator," so I guess that will be what the next game is, although I thought Kay was going to team up with two other girls <Franziska and Emma> to do that, although I guess that last scene was before the scene of the judge talking.

Anyways, I think Kay was just missing a sprite for grief and a sprite for very surprise. <Although I like that sprite for when others would be agitated, she makes this weird expression, like a mild surprise, which she uses in situations were others would be agitated or frightened, she uses it for both though.>

Anyways, here is some fan art.

I used the original names.
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Anyways, I put some expressions at the right. I also tried to draw what she would look like at 22 at the bottom left.

The "super surprised" look is among them. Also, I hope in a future game, they become romantically involved, which is why I put that blushing expression too. I liked that she didn't fall "head over heels" for him and didn't show any signs of interest at all through out the game, which I think separates her from girls that would be "madly in love at first sight" like that girl at water land or that oldbag lady, lol. For that, I hope Kay and Edgeworth end up together. She is Edgeworthy in my opinion. I think they make a good pair! Her personality just fits his so well.

Wouldn't you agree?
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Holy polarized opinions, Batman!

Arti_Rei wrote:
Arthas wrote:
A sue is a character that is the author's darling, that always gets their way, never gets hurt no matter what happens, has awesome powers nobody else has, gets the main role of the story and succeeds with no effort in whatever it is they're doing.

Iwamoto wrote:
The very first character we made for AAI. Though it's obvious if you look at the sketches, we redesigned her over and over. We grasped her look once we stuck to a Japanese theme and when we pumped her with energy, we finally got it.

Discussé.

...Isn't "redesigned many times = author favorite" quite the of a leap of logic? If anything, it shows she wasn't good enough to be put into the game as is, without an overhaul.

I'd think all authors of any work have one character that they like more than the others, that doesn't make them Sues unless it adversely affects the story and the characterization (i.e. the other elements in the quoted definition).
Spoiler: Going over those other elements (spoiler tagged for space since this is a bit tangential)
Getting her way: No - nothing actually happens. She expresses kleptomania, Edgeworth goes "tsk, tsk" and that's the end of it.
Never gets hurt no matter what happens: No. She nearly gets herself killed!
Awesome powers nobody else has: Partly yes. Unlike Maya's spirit powers or the Gramarye Perceive, however, Little Thief is just a gadget that (presumably) anyone could use with some training, rather than being tied to Kay as a person. Also, Lang and Shih-na both treat its scene recreation function as a fancy toy (though Shih-na does apparently covet it, presumably for its other features)
Gets the main role of the story: Nope.
Succeeds with no effort in whatever it is they're doing: Definitely not. Even her very first appearance is in a way, an epic fail (foreshadowing her future endangerment of herself through her recklessness, actually) - she unties Edgeworth, but then ends up being stuck in the same room with him, unable to get out. (It's Edgey who gets them both out of that mess, naturally.) Just gets worse in Case 5.


Primal wrote:
After analyzing the events in the game, I think Kay was meant to "melt" the "ice around Edgeworth's heart" judging by how he got more lenient with Gumshoe while the game progressed. For example, by the end of the game, he was saying "salary negotiations" instead of "salary cut", which implies that he would allow Gumshoe to redeem himself instead of just getting an instant cut to his salary like he use to do. I saw a lot of little things like that and thought it was great. I didn't think anybody would ever effect Edgeworth's personality that much.

I really don't think Edgeworth's changed personality should be credited to Kay, though. His personality in the entirety of AAI was a change from Edgeworth as we traditionally see him - he's rather more like Phoenix now, presumably because the player character being heroic and selfless even to strangers is a series tradition. Kay gave Edgeworth a chance to show his new (and fairly often OOC) noble, chivalrous nature, but so did Maggey, Rhoda, Lauren and Gumshoe. Of course, he says/would say that it was only his duty as a prosecutor to the truth and all that.

Quote:
For that, I hope Kay and Edgeworth end up together. She is Edgeworthy in my opinion. I think they make a good pair! Her personality just fits his so well.

Wouldn't you agree?

Leaving aside the fact that Edgeworth/anyone is by definition a crack ship:
Spoiler: This is me picking holes in my own OTP
Not as is, no. Opposites may attract but similarities keep them together, and while Edgey has mellowed out a lot (like Franzy), Kay currently remains far too skippy, happy-go lucky for her own and his good. Actually, she needs a lot more character development in general (to be fair, though, we only see Kay for a total of three days of her life) - we don't get to see much of her personal values beyond her filial piety and idealistic heroism (let's not mention her ridiculous enthusiasm at a certain inappropriate moment), and it'd be nice to see some of this in future games* before we run wild with our ships.

...Though a good two-thirds of the pairings around this fandom have even less basis, so...yeah.

* Like in my upcoming AAI sequel fangame, Miles Edgeworth: Intrepid Investigator. Along with Kay's character development, explore Lang and Fraziska's family secrets, the truth behind the Cohdopian civil war, what happens to Edgeworth in the years following Phoenix's disbarment, and much more! (Coming Spring 2018.)


Nice fanart, by the way. :will:
Read my fic(s)!
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:
We have no dreams at all or interesting ones. We should learn to be awake the same way — not at all or in an interesting manner.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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justice is always wright ;)

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Rank: Decisive Witness

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:53 pm

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*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"

we've got iris,we've got apollo,we even have many of those in other game serieses,and now we have kay.

i just don't understand why many poeple keep clinging to the things they get used to and just can't have fun with new changes that keep thing's interesting and give us new types of storyline and many new interactions,they have to add new charectars with important roles in the story couse otherwise the charectars who had been almost 100% developed will be the only ones taking the roles and we won't see charectars with major development becouse most poeple think new charectars aren't good enough for main roles :sadshoe:

as for kay,what she did is no where any more sue than that of many other main charectars,maya and pearl can channel dead poeple and give you the magatma,phoenix wright can detect secrets and force poeple to confess to things they normally wouldn't confess to,even if they're hiding extremly strong secrets,and pearl and apollo can perceave the smallest and tiniest of movments so if we were able to take all that in,how does a high tecknology thieve device seem more sue?

as for edgeworth letting her invistigate with him,she helped him escape,she's the one who had him discover the movable ladder,but more importantly,freed him when he was tied up and tried to escape with all his strength screaming "NNNGGGHHHHHOOOOOOOH" :edgy: , and she afterwards told him that the yatagarasu is only after one thing,and that is the truth,where as despite all her talking about theivery,she won't steal anything other than what the yatagarasu does, and she didn't seal anything yet so edgeworth still can't treat her like a criminal thieve,and as for her being underaged invistigator,wright let pearl invistigate with him at case 2-4,nuff-said,also another reason he let her come with him was the help of little thieve(although that's after the oldbag testomony)
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