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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"

we've got iris,we've got apollo,we even have many of those in other game serieses,and now we have kay.

i just don't understand why many poeple keep clinging to the things they get used to and just can't have fun with new changes that keep thing's interesting and give us new types of storyline and many new interactions,they have to add new charectars with important roles in the story couse otherwise the charectars who had been almost 100% developed will be the only ones taking the roles and we won't see charectars with major development becouse most poeple think new charectars aren't good enough for main roles :sadshoe:

as for kay,what she did is no where any more sue than that of many other main charectars,maya and pearl can channel dead poeple and give you the magatma,phoenix wright can detect secrets and force poeple to confess to things they normally wouldn't confess to,even if they're hiding extremly strong secrets,and pearl and apollo can perceave the smallest and tiniest of movments so if we were able to take all that in,how does a high tecknology thieve device seem more sue?

as for edgeworth letting her invistigate with him,she helped him escape,she's the one who had him discover the movable ladder,but more importantly,freed him when he was tied up and tried to escape with all his strength screaming "NNNGGGHHHHHOOOOOOOH" :edgy: , and she afterwards told him that the yatagarasu is only after one thing,and that is the truth,where as despite all her talking about theivery,she won't steal anything other than what the yatagarasu does, and she didn't seal anything yet so edgeworth still can't treat her like a criminal thieve,and as for her being underaged invistigator,wright let pearl invistigate with him at case 2-4,nuff-said,also another reason he let her come with him was the help of little thieve(although that's after the oldbag testomony)


He makes a good point, and we have to remember that Kay was looking for Edgeworth before all of this happened, (read the end of the case carefully) So Kay would have stuck with Edgeworth even if the the Edgeworth Kidnapping didn't occur. Besides that, Edgeworth owes Kay for saving his life, so he's not exactly going to say "See Ya." Actually, that's really the only reason Edgeworth went to the embassy in the last case... to repay his debt.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Rarikou wrote:
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"

we've got iris,we've got apollo,we even have many of those in other game serieses,and now we have kay.

i just don't understand why many poeple keep clinging to the things they get used to and just can't have fun with new changes that keep thing's interesting and give us new types of storyline and many new interactions,they have to add new charectars with important roles in the story couse otherwise the charectars who had been almost 100% developed will be the only ones taking the roles and we won't see charectars with major development becouse most poeple think new charectars aren't good enough for main roles :sadshoe:

as for kay,what she did is no where any more sue than that of many other main charectars,maya and pearl can channel dead poeple and give you the magatma,phoenix wright can detect secrets and force poeple to confess to things they normally wouldn't confess to,even if they're hiding extremly strong secrets,and pearl and apollo can perceave the smallest and tiniest of movments so if we were able to take all that in,how does a high tecknology thieve device seem more sue?

as for edgeworth letting her invistigate with him,she helped him escape,she's the one who had him discover the movable ladder,but more importantly,freed him when he was tied up and tried to escape with all his strength screaming "NNNGGGHHHHHOOOOOOOH" :edgy: , and she afterwards told him that the yatagarasu is only after one thing,and that is the truth,where as despite all her talking about theivery,she won't steal anything other than what the yatagarasu does, and she didn't seal anything yet so edgeworth still can't treat her like a criminal thieve,and as for her being underaged invistigator,wright let pearl invistigate with him at case 2-4,nuff-said,also another reason he let her come with him was the help of little thieve(although that's after the oldbag testomony)


He makes a good point, and we have to remember that Kay was looking for Edgeworth before all of this happened, (read the end of the case carefully) So Kay would have stuck with Edgeworth even if the the Edgeworth Kidnapping didn't occur. Besides that, Edgeworth owes Kay for saving his life, so he's not exactly going to say "See Ya." Actually, that's really the only reason Edgeworth went to the embassy in the last case... to repay his debt.


wow,i forgot about that,yeah i guess kay would have found edgeworth even without coincidence :edgy:

But owing her his life wasn't the only reason,it was one of the reasons,and a very strong one,but another reason was that the fake yagaratsu was there,according to the news a yatagarasu claimed to go there and only a fake one would do such a thing :yuusaku:

Spoiler: case 4
I think it would have been better if kay ran to edgeworth and pushed him,showing a cg(or whatever you call those non-sprite scenes) of kay pushing edgeworth,considering how short she was at the time,the bench would have been the perfect cover for her,the cg would also show the bullet,flying and hitting the wall,going past where edgeworth used to sand,would have been epicly stressfull,even if it was a flashback in which we know nothing happened to edgeworth at the time

Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"


And yet, she is. :lana:

Quote:
we've got iris,we've got apollo,we even have many of those in other game serieses,and now we have kay.


I liked those two even more. One of them gets into trouble for purposefully cooperating in an alteration of the crime scene and nothing she says as the perpetrator validates her innocence, the other's a greenhorn attorney who didn't know jackshit about his talent until You-Know-Who-The-Ex-Suit-In-Blue tells him, but he still grasped straws in all four cases with only that talent to keep him going. And yet in AAI 4, Kay's Cloaked-Person-No-One-Else-Saw-But-Her testimony counted as a stable plea for her innocence.

Franziska in 3-5 wrote:
Everyone lies!


Quote:
i just don't understand why many poeple keep clinging to the things they get used to and just can't have fun with new changes that keep thing's interesting and give us new types of storyline and many new interactions,they have to add new charectars with important roles in the story couse otherwise the charectars who had been almost 100% developed will be the only ones taking the roles and we won't see charectars with major development becouse most poeple think new charectars aren't good enough for main roles :sadshoe:


Mind you, there's a difference between the introduction of new characters and the inclusion of new main characters. And sometimes, change never works out for everyone.

Quote:
as for kay,what she did is no where any more sue than that of many other main charectars,maya and pearl can channel dead poeple and give you the magatma,phoenix wright can detect secrets and force poeple to confess to things they normally wouldn't confess to,even if they're hiding extremly strong secrets,and pearl[you mean trucy] and apollo can perceave the smallest and tiniest of movments so if we were able to take all that in,how does a high tecknology thieve device seem more sue?


Hold it! Where did you get the idea that having the Magatama is a shortcut towards success? All it does is sniff out secretive people and tells the player how many secrets they have per Psychelock. Nick does a lot of legwork and persistently confronts the "target" because he wants to know the details, no matter how sketchy, behind each case. Anyone saying that the Magatama made the investigations easy either used a walkthrough, or never played the game at all. I'll sum this up: Maya and Pearl are good spirit mediums because they grew up understanding and training for it. Apollo and Trucy are good at reading body language due to their genetics.

Now if Kay was some prodigious techie-junkie and a hacker at that out to correct police investigations gone all wrong[due to some trouble with them in her past], then she would have been more than fine in my book. It's rather Sueish how a thief could heavily rely on something like Little Thief for them to navigate their way through a security building. Seriously, it knocks the art of stealth and subterfuge down by several notches. The fact that that thing also projects the whole damn crime scene in pre-murder and post-murder mode is a let-down, because it's too easy. :yuusaku:

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as for edgeworth letting her invistigate with him,she helped him escape,she's the one who had him discover the movable ladder,


After trying to do something crazy like jump down a ladder, I can hardly believe Edgeworth still let her tag along.

Quote:
but more importantly,freed him when he was tied up and tried to escape with all his strength screaming "NNNGGGHHHHHOOOOOOOH" :edgy: ,


Only an uncaring twat would ignore a person tied securely to a post.

Quote:
and she afterwards told him that the yatagarasu is only after one thing,and that is the truth,where as despite all her talking about theivery,she won't steal anything other than what the yatagarasu does,


Oh how noble. No wait. Oh the hypocrisy of a thief attempting heroism. Yeah, that's better.

Quote:
and she didn't seal anything yet so edgeworth still can't treat her like a criminal thieve,


Either to keep an eye on her so that she doesn't go wild, or because he can't take her seriously as a thief.

Quote:
and as for her being underaged invistigator,wright let pearl invistigate with him at case 2-4,nuff-said


When a worried little girl wants to come along to help in any way she can, that's cute. When a crazy girl calling herself "A Thief of Truth" prances in with a big grin on her face declaring she wants to steal the truth, that's nuts. Nuttier than Ron "MaskdeMasque" Delite. Being underaged is hardly an issue here anyway, because she and Maya are only separated by two years of age.

Quote:
,also another reason he let her come with him was the help of little thieve(although that's after the oldbag testomony)


The alternate solution: Edgeworth runs off to find a sketchpad(possibly from Ema or an officer sent by Gumshoe), and asks Oldbag to draw what she can remember of it(nevermind if she's lousy at sketching). Edgey thinks haaaaard and finds the position of the two people somewhat convincing yet feels something's missing. Contradiction sticks out, Edgey deduces. Edgey clears up the oldbag's testimony with evidence(hopefully by angled gunshots).

The AAI solution: Kay whips out her trusty cartoon projector Little Thief, punches in a series of extremely complicated object-oriented variables and other values(plus a shitload of binary coding), draws polygons with a stylus(lol), sets the resolution, adjusts the area of projection using square meters using a geometric model, and presto, instant crime scene. Boy do I wish the director took the time in his interviews to explain how the thing worked, or else fans wouldn't be trying to imagine how Kay pulls it off. Oh, and did I mention she'd have to use meshes for the modelling? Those are hard to do, and not something you make on the spot. Daddy Faraday couldn't have made Little Thief that easy to use if he created it. Because if it fell into the wrong hands, they'd find it easy to use too. An eternity code encryption would have been nice.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"


Arti_Rei wrote:
And yet, she is. :lana:


but I like new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectars :larry:

Quote:
we've got iris,we've got apollo,we even have many of those in other game serieses,and now we have kay.


Arti_Rei wrote:
I liked those two even more. One of them gets into trouble for purposefully cooperating in an alteration of the crime scene and nothing she says as the perpetrator validates her innocence, the other's a greenhorn attorney who didn't know jackshit about his talent until You-Know-Who-The-Ex-Suit-In-Blue tells him, but he still grasped straws in all four cases with only that talent to keep him going. And yet in AAI 4, Kay's Cloaked-Person-No-One-Else-Saw-But-Her testimony counted as a stable plea for her innocence.


Spoiler: case 4
she was about 8 years old and she was the doughter of byrne faraday, how could she be a Cloaked-Person-No-One-Else-Saw and how could she comit the murder,i understand the gun,but the knife?


Franziska in 3-5 wrote:
Everyone lies!


Quote:
i just don't understand why many poeple keep clinging to the things they get used to and just can't have fun with new changes that keep thing's interesting and give us new types of storyline and many new interactions,they have to add new charectars with important roles in the story couse otherwise the charectars who had been almost 100% developed will be the only ones taking the roles and we won't see charectars with major development becouse most poeple think new charectars aren't good enough for main roles :sadshoe:


Arti_Rei wrote:
Mind you, there's a difference between the introduction of new characters and the inclusion of new main characters. And sometimes, change never works out for everyone.


It worked out for me,and as long as I am easly impressed I can enjoy most new interesting changes that are given,much better than being sad by seeing many bad stuff and being hard to impress :redd:

Quote:
as for kay,what she did is no where any more sue than that of many other main charectars,maya and pearl can channel dead poeple and give you the magatma,phoenix wright can detect secrets and force poeple to confess to things they normally wouldn't confess to,even if they're hiding extremly strong secrets,and pearl[you mean trucy] and apollo can perceave the smallest and tiniest of movments so if we were able to take all that in,how does a high tecknology thieve device seem more sue?



Arti_Rei wrote:
Hold it! Where did you get the idea that having the Magatama is a shortcut towards success? All it does is sniff out secretive people and tells the player how many secrets they have per Psychelock. Nick does a lot of legwork and persistently confronts the "target" because he wants to know the details, no matter how sketchy, behind each case. Anyone saying that the Magatama made the investigations easy either used a walkthrough, or never played the game at all. I'll sum this up: Maya and Pearl are good spirit mediums because they grew up understanding and training for it. Apollo and Trucy are good at reading body language due to their genetics.


ooops,sorry about the pearl/trucy mixup,anyway the magtma is a magical tool,and i am not saying gameplay with it is easier,i am saying that storyline wise it would have been imposible for wright to win all his cases without it,maybe some but not all of them.

as for maya and pearl growing up understanding and training for their abilaties,we can't be sure that kay isn't the same,byrne faraday must have tought her or something.

Arti_Rei wrote:
Now if Kay was some prodigious techie-junkie and a hacker at that out to correct police investigations gone all wrong[due to some trouble with them in her past], then she would have been more than fine in my book. It's rather Sueish how a thief could heavily rely on something like Little Thief for them to navigate their way through a security building. Seriously, it knocks the art of stealth and subterfuge down by several notches. The fact that that thing also projects the whole damn crime scene in pre-murder and post-murder mode is a let-down, because it's too easy. :yuusaku:


as she said,it's a high tecknology device that doesn't only show things from the past and the future,but also animates things,after all,you can't have a sneaking sim without moving gourds and what not :karma: , i still can't see how the high performance device seem's stranger than magic :eh?:

Quote:
as for edgeworth letting her invistigate with him,she helped him escape,she's the one who had him discover the movable ladder,


Arti_Rei wrote:
After trying to do something crazy like jump down a ladder, I can hardly believe Edgeworth still let her tag along.


that doesn't change the fact that her mad action was benificial.

Quote:
but more importantly,freed him when he was tied up and tried to escape with all his strength screaming "NNNGGGHHHHHOOOOOOOH" :edgy: ,


Arti_Rei wrote:
Only an uncaring twat would ignore a person tied securely to a post.


that doesn't change the fact that without her,edgeworth would have failed to escape(early,without the police finding him) and would have failed to invistigate before wolf-boy wraped things up as he see's fit,after all,i tried to see what type of dialogue would show when i lose all penalty points at the begining of case 3,and it showed them being found later but being found and freed late would cost edgeworth the invistigation.

Quote:
and she afterwards told him that the yatagarasu is only after one thing,and that is the truth,where as despite all her talking about theivery,she won't steal anything other than what the yatagarasu does,


Arti_Rei wrote:
Oh how noble. No wait. Oh the hypocrisy of a thief attempting heroism. Yeah, that's better.


stealing and returning an item isn't what i would call criminal thievery,afterall,the yatagarasu is showing the truth to the public,even by means that would "look" criminalish.

Spoiler: when lang commented about edgeworth's eyes being harsh,edgeworth replayed
these are the eyes of the person that is seeking the truth.

and if at times they are judged as harsh then so be it.


Quote:
and she didn't seal anything yet so edgeworth still can't treat her like a criminal thieve,


Arti_Rei wrote:
Either to keep an eye on her so that she doesn't go wild, or because he can't take her seriously as a thief.


hmmmm,good point,personally i think he can't take her seriesly as a material thief,after all,she always announces things she claims to steal that she wouldn't,like the prosecution's badge,unlike the yatagarasu she claim's she would steal it,so it's safe to say most things(if not all) she claim's to steal she won't steal.

Quote:
and as for her being underaged invistigator,wright let pearl invistigate with him at case 2-4,nuff-said


Arti_Rei wrote:
When a worried little girl wants to come along to help in any way she can, that's cute. When a crazy girl calling herself "A Thief of Truth" prances in with a big grin on her face declaring she wants to steal the truth, that's nuts. Nuttier than Ron "MaskdeMasque" Delite. Being underaged is hardly an issue here anyway, because she and Maya are only separated by two years of age.


well,poeple kept mentioning her age so i had to include that,as for the nuttiness of her invistigating with edgeworth,she was afterall looking for him and when she found him she remembered him and was set to help him,not as cut as pearl's reason but at least is good enough reason to help edgeworth

Quote:
,also another reason he let her come with him was the help of little thieve(although that's after the oldbag testomony)


Arti_Rei wrote:
The alternate solution: Edgeworth runs off to find a sketchpad(possibly from Ema or an officer sent by Gumshoe), and asks Oldbag to draw what she can remember of it(nevermind if she's lousy at sketching). Edgey thinks haaaaard and finds the position of the two people somewhat convincing yet feels something's missing. Contradiction sticks out, Edgey deduces. Edgey clears up the oldbag's testimony with evidence(hopefully by angled gunshots).
[/quote]

that doesn't change the fact that using little thieve is much faster and more visually effective.

Arti_Rei wrote:
The AAI solution: Kay whips out her trusty cartoon projector Little Thief, punches in a series of extremely complicated object-oriented variables and other values(plus a shitload of binary coding), draws polygons with a stylus(lol), sets the resolution, adjusts the area of projection using square meters using a geometric model, and presto, instant crime scene. Boy do I wish the director took the time in his interviews to explain how the thing worked, or else fans wouldn't be trying to imagine how Kay pulls it off. Oh, and did I mention she'd have to use meshes for the modelling? Those are hard to do, and not something you make on the spot. Daddy Faraday couldn't have made Little Thief that easy to use if he created it. Because if it fell into the wrong hands, they'd find it easy to use too. An eternity code encryption would have been nice.


daddy faraday tought her how to use little thieve,and she got used to little thieve by continues uses of it untill she was finally able to master it.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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General Tommy wrote:
Actually, I think that most of the hate leveled at her is because of the fact that she is just another Genki Girl that can do something to help and she's working with Edgeworth.

... being helpful is now a reason to be hated? I'm not sure where you're coming from. But tying into what this guy said,

Phoenix_Justice wrote:
*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"

That's just plain ignorant. People can like or dislike any character they please, and just because they don't share your opinion doesn't mean that their arguments are purely superficial. On both sides of this discussion people have been making intelligent, well-formed arguments, so neither side has the right to say that the other is fundamentally wrong or to try to discredit them by saying that they're just being whiny.

Primal wrote:
I think that Kay was a great character. I wasn't annoyed at all during the entire time I was playing.

I apologize for finding this funny, but the irony of your post is that by declaring your love for Kay, you're justifying all of the traits we're debating about. To people who believe that this is how Kay was intended to be seen, it immediately qualifies her as self-insert-wish-fulfilment, which may or may not qualify her as a Mary Sue.

Quote:
I think Kay was meant to "melt" the "ice around Edgeworth's heart"... I didn't think anybody would ever effect Edgeworth's personality that much.

Doesn't every fangirl (not-so-)secretly want to take their favourite cold/serious/tragic/etc characters and be the only person amazing and pure enough to be able to to lighten them up and make them kinder, more emotionally-stable members of society? If Edgeworth did undergo a dramatic change for the better by simply being in Kay's presence, Capcom did it for the fans who wanted to do that and would use Kay as an avatar for themselves as they played the game.

Quote:
I think Kay might end up his girlfriend in the future based on my analysis.

The prospect of romance immediately raises eyebrows, and while I don't think that this was Capcom's intention, it's more evidence for her just being a personification of what fans wanted. Romance or not, Kay enjoyed a physical, emotional, and psychological proximity to Edgeworth that brings to mind the sort of fan who fantasizes things like "Gee, I wish I could get close to and share a genuine bond with someone like Edgeworth".

Quote:
I liked that she didn't fall "head over heels" for him and didn't show any signs of interest at all through out the game, which I think separates her from girls that would be "madly in love at first sight" like that girl at water land or that oldbag lady, lol.

On the subject of this, Edgeworth fans like Oldbag are probably the exact sort of person Kay was written for.

Moving on,
Cravat of Doom wrote:
Kay, you're only a teen. You should not be able to make a better decision than Edgeworth.

I have to agree. One of the things that made her so unbelievable a character was her occasionally unique competence in the face of people who should have been much more competent than her. There's no reason that teenagers can't be competent, but one of the vague cornerstones of Kay's character was her incompetence (regarding being the Yatagarasu and such), and Edgeworth was established from the very beginning as the most intelligent and level-headed character in the game. For Kay, who had just met him, to motivate him out of a moment of despair so easily puts her a rung higher than Edgeworth, and that sort of superiority makes people point to Sue finger.

Arti_Rei wrote:
It's rather Sueish how a thief could heavily rely on something like Little Thief for them to navigate their way through a security building. Seriously, it knocks the art of stealth and subterfuge down by several notches. The fact that that thing also projects the whole damn crime scene in pre-murder and post-murder mode is a let-down, because it's too easy. :yuusaku:

Back to Kay's incompetence, I also have to agree with this. At the times when Kay was not superior to Edgeworth, she didn't need to be in order to achieve the same effect. Kay was generally incompetent, and that's not a bad thing (in fact it would have given her a relatable character flaw), but her incompetence was never an obstacle to her. She only had the potential to be a "modern-day Robin Hood" because the Little Thief could do all the work for her; her goal was meaningless because she didn't need to better herself or do any legwork in order to achieve it. In the same vein, she didn't need to be some sort of tech whiz in order to do crime-scene recreations (because the Little Thief is that user-friendly), and she didn't need any sort of competence to bring down Daddy's killer (because fingerprints preserve themselves for seven years). The only true obstacle she encountered was when she ended up being held at gunpoint due to her own recklessness.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Marshmello wrote:
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
*sigh* another one of those "I hate that character becouse he/she took the spotlight from my beloved old charectars although he/she is a simple shitty new goody 2 shoes non-badass charectar"

That's just plain ignorant. People can like or dislike any character they please, and just because they don't share your opinion doesn't mean that their arguments are purely superficial. On both sides of this discussion people have been making intelligent, well-formed arguments, so neither side has the right to say that the other is fundamentally wrong or to try to discredit them by saying that they're just being whiny.


I have never said that the haters don't have grounds to stand on :sadshoe:

you said that both sides,the haters and the likers provide great explanations,if i were to choose wether to like a charectar and enjoy them becouse of their good features and for very good reasons,or to hate a charectar and get annoyed by them for their bad features and for very good reasons.

Then I humbly choose to like the charectar and enjoy their apearance in the game and thus enjoy the game more(even if by a little bit).

If there's as much reason's to like a charectar as there is to hate him/her and you guys choose to hate them and get annoyed by them and thus have less fun(even if a little bit) with the game,then so be it :edgy:

as for me,I'll be having fun so long as i have a good reason :will: (even if there's an equally good reason for getting annoyed)
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
And yet in AAI 4 5, Kay's Cloaked-Person-No-One-Else-Saw-But-Her testimony counted as a stable plea for her innocence

Nobody actually lets her off based on her claim, she isn't released until Edgeworth proves that she couldn't have done it. Gumshoe believes her because he's Gumshoe, and Edgeworth believes her because he's having a bad relapse of Phoenix Wright syndrome, but no-one else does.

Quote:
Now if Kay was some prodigious techie-junkie and a hacker at that out to correct police investigations gone all wrong[due to some trouble with them in her past], then she would have been more than fine in my book. It's rather Sueish how a thief could heavily rely on something like Little Thief for them to navigate their way through a security building. Seriously, it knocks the art of stealth and subterfuge down by several notches.

...Are we even using remotely similar definitions of "Sue" here? :lana: I've never once heard "relies on a tool that makes it easy" to be a Sue trait, or even an Anti Sue trait. How would having improbable super skills be less Sueish than having a tool to do it for you? (Also, if there's one thing the Ace Attorney universe has too much of, it's unusually young prodigies. I don't think anyone would want yet another one.)
Anyway, Kay does mention practicing at least one "traditional" thief skill (lockpicking), so she's not exclusively reliant on LT (though we never see this, figures).

Marshmello wrote:
I have to agree. One of the things that made her so unbelievable a character was her occasionally unique competence in the face of people who should have been much more competent than her. There's no reason that teenagers can't be competent, but one of the vague cornerstones of Kay's character was her incompetence (regarding being the Yatagarasu and such), and Edgeworth was established from the very beginning as the most intelligent and level-headed character in the game. For Kay, who had just met him, to motivate him out of a moment of despair so easily puts her a rung higher than Edgeworth, and that sort of superiority makes people point to Sue finger.

Not to defend that terribad scene or anything (especially since I just realized how much it reeks of Straw Vulcan, a trope I absolutely loathe), but that part wasn't a matter of competence in any field, it was simply one of motivation. Logical thinker Edgeworth has given up - try as he might, he can't figure out how to nail the bad guy, and even the ultra-persistent Interpol agent he's been working with has apparently thrown in the towel and just shuffled off - and it's up to the (inappropriately, to be sure, and probably just as Sueish in the big picture) optimistic, upbeat sidekick to convince him that he 'll get if if he just tries a little harder.
Actually, this reminds me of a certain other annoying scene where Mia comes back from the dead just to tell Phoenix to turn the damn receipt over - sure, their relationship roles are the reverse of the Edgeworth-Kay one, but even rookie!Phoenix should have been able to figure that much out on his own - hell, he could've easily flipped the paper over purely by accident at some previous point!
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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KingRaptor wrote:
Nobody actually lets her off based on her claim, she isn't released until Edgeworth proves that she couldn't have done it. Gumshoe believes her because he's Gumshoe, and Edgeworth believes her because he's having a bad relapse of Phoenix Wright syndrome, but no-one else does.


What I disliked about that scene was that Edgeworth was making her testimony count purely on the belief that she was innocent and which he isn't likely to do unless he's Phoenix Wright, and that she kept repeating the same defensive line over and over until I got sick of it. No-one else? There was Franny. :franny:

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...Are we even using remotely similar definitions of "Sue" here? :lana: I've never once heard "relies on a tool that makes it easy" to be a Sue trait, or even an Anti Sue trait. How would having improbable super skills be less Sueish than having a tool to do it for you? (Also, if there's one thing the Ace Attorney universe has too much of, it's unusually young prodigies. I don't think anyone would want yet another one.)
Anyway, Kay does mention practicing at least one "traditional" thief skill (lockpicking), so she's not exclusively reliant on LT (though we never see this, figures).


You should get out more, you're being superficial about the definition of a Sue. Is the second-generation Yatagarasu, has an awesome gadget for a trump card and has her father's diary for a guidebook. All of it acquired from a hand-me-down source that was Daddy-O. Too easy. Said super skills at least would have been acquired pertaining to only one field of expertise and that is computer hacking.

Plus, a decent motive like having an axe to pick with the law enforcements for shoddy investigations in the past where she was directly involved sounds a lot more appealing than "My father got killed by this acid-tripping woman and I'm off to take revenge on her as the second-generation Yatagarasu".

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Not to defend that terribad scene or anything (especially since I just realized how much it reeks of Straw Vulcan, a trope I absolutely loathe), but that part wasn't a matter of competence in any field, it was simply one of motivation. Logical thinker Edgeworth has given up - try as he might, he can't figure out how to nail the bad guy, and even the ultra-persistent Interpol agent he's been working with has apparently thrown in the towel and just shuffled off - and it's up to the (inappropriately, to be sure, and probably just as Sueish in the big picture) optimistic, upbeat sidekick to convince him that he 'll get if if he just tries a little harder.


Motivation? Are you kidding me? Wasn't Edgeworth the Demon Prosecutor who always got his guilty verdict, WITHOUT fabricating evidence of any sort?

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Actually, this reminds me of a certain other annoying scene where Mia comes back from the dead just to tell Phoenix to turn the damn receipt over - sure, their relationship roles are the reverse of the Edgeworth-Kay one, but even rookie!Phoenix should have been able to figure that much out on his own - hell, he could've easily flipped the paper over purely by accident at some previous point!


Lol, when was the last time you brought this up?

Tell me something. When you see a dead body for the first time with the stench of blood in the air, and you see a piece of paper with a name traced by a finger using the victim's blood, wouldn't that make a heavy impression on you? Such an eerie and terrible piece of evidence that stands out and can't be forgotten by good-natured people like Nick. How the hell could he have thought to flip the paper over when the message stands out so much at the supposed front? And why would he keep looking at it anyway since it makes him sick to his stomach knowing it's his mentor's blood and her sister's name on it? Cut Nick some slack, you'd want that too if you were in his shoes and you were squeamish about blood and murder.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
KingRaptor wrote:
Nobody actually lets her off based on her claim, she isn't released until Edgeworth proves that she couldn't have done it. Gumshoe believes her because he's Gumshoe, and Edgeworth believes her because he's having a bad relapse of Phoenix Wright syndrome, but no-one else does.


What I disliked about that scene was that Edgeworth was making her testimony count purely on the belief that she was innocent and which he isn't likely to do unless he's Phoenix Wright, and that she kept repeating the same defensive line over and over until I got sick of it. No-one else? There was Franny. :franny:

Edgeworth refused to take Lauren's confession at face value (although he already had the evidence disproving her version of events at the time), and defends Rhoda (whom he's known for even less time than Kay, has as much or more evidence implicating her, and in general appears more likely to be a killer). As I said, he really is having a Phoenix Wright experience for the whole of the game.

Replaying that scene, Franziska doesn't give any hint of thinking Kay is innocent - she's actually indifferent to the whole matter. (Also, it turns out that Kay wasn't the only one who saw the cloaked figure - Shih-na says that Babahl officers reported seeing such a figure starting the fire, although only Kay saw him/her running into Coachen's office.)

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...Are we even using remotely similar definitions of "Sue" here? :lana: I've never once heard "relies on a tool that makes it easy" to be a Sue trait, or even an Anti Sue trait. How would having improbable super skills be less Sueish than having a tool to do it for you? (Also, if there's one thing the Ace Attorney universe has too much of, it's unusually young prodigies. I don't think anyone would want yet another one.)
Anyway, Kay does mention practicing at least one "traditional" thief skill (lockpicking), so she's not exclusively reliant on LT (though we never see this, figures).

You should get out more, you're being superficial about the definition of a Sue.

Rather than argue this point, I'll just quote your own definition here:
Quote:
"Raunchy and ridiculous", that's my Sue definition.

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Is the second-generation Yatagarasu, has an awesome gadget for a trump card and has her father's diary for a guidebook. All of it acquired from a hand-me-down source that was Daddy-O. Too easy. Said super skills at least would have been acquired pertaining to only one field of expertise and that is computer hacking.

Inheriting a title, a super gadget and a thief manual is rather convenient (though far less so than a never-fails lie-detecting ability that just happens to run in the family), but is it really more ridiculous than being an expert hacker at age 17 (something that happens to be rather cliche in itself)?

Also, that doesn't answer the question: How is Little Thief as an infiltration tool Sueish?

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Plus, a decent motive like having an axe to pick with the law enforcements for shoddy investigations in the past where she was directly involved sounds a lot more appealing than "My father got killed by this acid-tripping woman and I'm off to take revenge on her as the second-generation Yatagarasu".

Wait, how is having a selfish, flawed motive a Sue trait? Makes her less likable, sure, but a Sue?

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Motivation? Are you kidding me? Wasn't Edgeworth the Demon Prosecutor who always got his guilty verdict, WITHOUT fabricating evidence of any sort?

Hey, I never said the scene made sense. Though I should note that Edgeworth hasn't been the Demon Prosecutor for two years now.

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Actually, this reminds me of a certain other annoying scene where Mia comes back from the dead just to tell Phoenix to turn the damn receipt over - sure, their relationship roles are the reverse of the Edgeworth-Kay one, but even rookie!Phoenix should have been able to figure that much out on his own - hell, he could've easily flipped the paper over purely by accident at some previous point!


Lol, when was the last time you brought this up?

Serious question? On a hunch, I went back and looked, and the answer is: never in this thread. Maybe elsewhere, but not here.

Quote:
Tell me something. When you see a dead body for the first time with the stench of blood in the air, and you see a piece of paper with a name traced by a finger using the victim's blood, wouldn't that make a heavy impression on you? Such an eerie and terrible piece of evidence that stands out and can't be forgotten by good-natured people like Nick. How the hell could he have thought to flip the paper over when the message stands out so much at the supposed front? And why would he keep looking at it anyway since it makes him sick to his stomach knowing it's his mentor's blood and her sister's name on it? Cut Nick some slack, you'd want that too if you were in his shoes and you were squeamish about blood and murder.

It's not actually Nick's first time seeing a just-dead body, he did go back to where Doug Swallow was murdered (although Dougie wasn't covered in blood).

Squeamish or not, he's been working on the case for two days before Mia shows up, and the note had already been brought up on the first day of the trial - you'd think he'd have gone over the evidence rigorously at least once in that time. I suppose I should cut him some slack (it's his second murder case, and the first that's up close and personal and all), but still.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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KingRaptor wrote:
Replaying that scene, Franziska doesn't give any hint of thinking Kay is innocent - she's actually indifferent to the whole matter. (Also, it turns out that Kay wasn't the only one who saw the cloaked figure - Shih-na says that Babahl officers reported seeing such a figure starting the fire, although only Kay saw him/her running into Coachen's office.)


And then pegs Kay to be the cloaked killer. Egh!

Quote:
Rather than argue this point, I'll just quote your own definition here:
Quote:
"Raunchy and ridiculous", that's my Sue definition.


In the shortest description, that is what makes a Sue. Especially when they act like they suffer from bipolar disorder since their mood just seems to jump from happy to serious in the blink of an eye. *cough*

Quote:
Inheriting a title, a super gadget and a thief manual is rather convenient (though far less so than a never-fails lie-detecting ability that just happens to run in the family), but is it really more ridiculous than being an expert hacker at age 17 (something that happens to be rather cliche in itself)?

Also, that doesn't answer the question: How is Little Thief as an infiltration tool Sueish?


Between abnormal DNA and thief tools, being lie detectors doesn't affect the quality of their magic tricks. And who said anything about being an expert hacker? Prodigy!=expert all the time. Just means you're ahead of everyone in class with straight A's but you don't damn well know what to really do with that knowledge. And no, being a hacker prodigy doesn't mean being able to hack into the police's mainframe system for information. There's a minefield of firewalls and anti-hacker viruses laid out for any computer whiz arrogant enough to step into their territory. And one more thing: being a computer hacker wouldn't make you out to be a hero, since you obtained information using illegal means. If anything, it's a criminal act no matter how justified and genuine the information is. That's what makes Kay the computer hacker fun: has many sources at her disposal, but can't present the dirt to the police without getting arrested. That's where Edgeworth comes in.

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Wait, how is having a selfish, flawed motive a Sue trait? Makes her less likable, sure, but a Sue?


It's selfish all right. Her relatives and the people who know her don't even get to have a say in it, except Gumshoe, who actually sees her actions as "honorable". :sadshoe: What kind of world are they living in there? Kay isn't a samurai for God's sake.

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Hey, I never said the scene made sense. Though I should note that Edgeworth hasn't been the Demon Prosecutor for two years now.


Sure still acted like a demon prosecutor in 2-4. Softened up at 3-5, but was just as clever and as witty and a quick thinker as our beloved Edgeworth. :edgeworth:

Quote:
It's not actually Nick's first time seeing a just-dead body, he did go back to where Doug Swallow was murdered (although Dougie wasn't covered in blood).

Squeamish or not, he's been working on the case for two days before Mia shows up, and the note had already been brought up on the first day of the trial - you'd think he'd have gone over the evidence rigorously at least once in that time. I suppose I should cut him some slack (it's his second murder case, and the first that's up close and personal and all), but still.


Yeah, it's one thing to see the dead body of your girlfriend's ex, but it's another to see your beloved Chief on the floor with blood dripping down from her head. And a crying girl dressed up like a shaman crouched next to her. Since I'm not as scrupulous as Nick the rookie was, I'd dismiss the note as fake if I was in his shoes because gut feeling(and the little sister crying miserable in jail!) tells me so. And then the truth of April May and her employer comes up so who needs to look at the note again? And then I get framed for Mia's murder a'gha;f. I really needed Mia to look back at the evidence from before and flip the paper over to see it was really a receipt. :eh?:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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to settle the whole kay having a smile at many times and being series at other times and being sad at other times,after playing through case 4 again,i just discovered.

Spoiler: case 4
In her promise notebook,promise III is "Always greet with a smile, even poeple you don't know."(exact quote)

so you see,the reason she smiles most of the time is becouse it's one of the promises she promised her father.

also,when i tried presenting her with evidence related to her father's death(after calming her down with a swiss role),gumshoe will prevent you saying that although she look's happy on the outside,she's "hurting deep down inside"(part of what gumshoe said),where as edgeworth appologieses and comment's about gumshoe being the voice of reason that time.


besides,in real life,there's a time when someone can be cheerfull and have fun and all that,and there's time when the person has to be series,i see nothing strange about kay's continuesly changing personallity.
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Marshmello wrote:

Primal wrote:
I think that Kay was a great character. I wasn't annoyed at all during the entire time I was playing.

I apologize for finding this funny, but the irony of your post is that by declaring your love for Kay, you're justifying all of the traits we're debating about. To people who believe that this is how Kay was intended to be seen, it immediately qualifies her as self-insert-wish-fulfilment, which may or may not qualify her as a Mary Sue.

Well, I thought all the sidekick girls in all the AA games were great. Anyways, saying a character is great doesn't specifically mean I love her. I'm saying that her qualities entertained me and I wasn't annoyed at all while watching her on screen. <Although, of course, I kinda wish she showed more emotions, which I think is why people found her hyper happiness to be annoying, some people just don't like seeing somebody that is happy on all the time I guess.>

Although, I don't think self-insertion or admiration are the only reasons for playing these games. I found that Kay has some merits over your usual anime girl. She actually wears shorts under her skirt instead of the standard pantie which is used for fanservice in way too many animes and games. So it was a breath of fresh air to see a girl with some sense of modesty and not another mass production anime girl to oogle. I don't oogle characters of any kind of course.

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I think Kay was meant to "melt" the "ice around Edgeworth's heart"... I didn't think anybody would ever effect Edgeworth's personality that much.

Doesn't every fangirl (not-so-)secretly want to take their favourite cold/serious/tragic/etc characters and be the only person amazing and pure enough to be able to to lighten them up and make them kinder, more emotionally-stable members of society? If Edgeworth did undergo a dramatic change for the better by simply being in Kay's presence, Capcom did it for the fans who wanted to do that and would use Kay as an avatar for themselves as they played the game.

Hold it! There is a reason why its in "quotes". Mostly because somebody else said that about another story with similar character personality interaction. Although its also because I would cringe to say/type those words without them being quotes. Although I say it because I think that is the reasoning behind the chemistry of "warm, happy personality" melting "frozen, hurt soul" and seeing that kind of pair warms my heart. :keiko:

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I think Kay might end up his girlfriend in the future based on my analysis.

The prospect of romance immediately raises eyebrows, and while I don't think that this was Capcom's intention, it's more evidence for her just being a personification of what fans wanted. Romance or not, Kay enjoyed a physical, emotional, and psychological proximity to Edgeworth that brings to mind the sort of fan who fantasizes things like "Gee, I wish I could get close to and share a genuine bond with someone like Edgeworth".

It is that same reason why I secretly think some fangirls are annoyed by Kay when you see it from the point of view of "self-insertion'. A girl that isn't them or doesn't share any of her qualities is near their edgeworth. : P Thats what I was thinking when I read some of these pots, although I didn't want to talk about it since it seems kind of rude. Although, I do not view or play the games from such a vantage point.

Although you could say that Kay was made to appeal to guys who want a spunky female sidekick to interact with if you want to view it from "self-insertion".

Edgeworth = Girls like him, guys wish they were him? You need to approach something from different angles. Staying secluded to a single point of view limits understanding of others viewpoints. I always approach thing from all angles, its part of the reason why I like these games<AA series>, solving all those puzzles is fun.

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I liked that she didn't fall "head over heels" for him and didn't show any signs of interest at all through out the game, which I think separates her from girls that would be "madly in love at first sight" like that girl at water land or that oldbag lady, lol.

On the subject of this, Edgeworth fans like Oldbag are probably the exact sort of person Kay was written for.

I never realized this, I thought people with Oldbag's personality would be like "Who is this happy-go-lucky, brat!? Why are you in the presence of my Edgee-poo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Noo!" In other words, I thought they would be severely annoyed by her. Which I didn't realize until I started lurking here. That is whats interesting about fansite forums, seeing all this diversity of reactions to different stories is great. Like there was this other story I was reading, for example, and I was thinking "Oh, that was neat" then when I visit a fan forum for it, I see people going "What is is this? I don't even." and "That power-up was lame!!!"<although insert lame with modern-day expletive>.

Anyways, I still don't find Kay annoying. Although, that isn't saying much since not a single character in any AA game has annoyed me at all. I always find some merit to their personality, design, and the way they are presented. Maybe I am just lenient?

Who says I'm a girl? :keiko: My gender isn't implied anywhere, although if somebody figures it out, that be neat. Its a testament to my strange personality that it isn't apparent what gender I am. Although, on the subject, I don't think of my gender.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Primal wrote:
She actually wears shorts under her skirt


I couldn't have known that, since at no point in the game does her sk--I better stop.
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Baby Bonnie Hood wrote:
Primal wrote:
She actually wears shorts under her skirt


I couldn't have known that, since at no point in the game does her sk--I better stop.


Thank God her little sprite jumps up and down and not her close-up sprite. :gant:

Phoenix_Wright wrote:
kay's continuesly changing personallity.


If you're serious about what you said(which I don't doubt you are), this is what I mean by being bipolar.
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On further reflection, while Kay's motive for chasing Yew was revenge (or more charitably, bringing her to justice; I don't think she actually thought of it in terms of personal vengeance), it likely wasn't her main (or even a major) motivation for becoming the Yatagarasu; that would be her hero worship of her father. Being hopelessly naive and idealistic is a fault in itself but it's certainly better than being vindictive.

Arti_Rei wrote:
Quote:
Rather than argue this point, I'll just quote your own definition here:
Quote:
"Raunchy and ridiculous", that's my Sue definition.


In the shortest description, that is what makes a Sue. Especially when they act like they suffer from bipolar disorder since their mood just seems to jump from happy to serious in the blink of an eye. *cough*

It's a valid enough definition on the face of it, but I don't think it's a very useful one - besides it not being commonly used, the meaning of 'ridiculous' can be stretched to encompass almost anything. Is Mask*deMasque a Sue? Larry? Oldbag? Klavier?

But I disgress-

Quote:
And one more thing: being a computer hacker wouldn't make you out to be a hero, since you obtained information using illegal means. If anything, it's a criminal act no matter how justified and genuine the information is.

A character doesn't have to be heroic (from the viewer's perspective) to be a Sue and/or well-liked though. Everyone loves Franzy and Lang, despite all the counts of assault for one and the wrongful arrests for the other.

Quote:
That's what makes Kay the computer hacker fun: has many sources at her disposal, but can't present the dirt to the police without getting arrested. That's where Edgeworth comes in.

How does Edgeworth change anything, though? He can no more accept Kay's stolen-electronically-rather-than-physically evidence than the police can, and if he starts accepting such evidence from her on a regular basis he could be guilty of anything from failure to report a crime to aiding and abetting. Reformed!Edgeworth would refuse such help under almost all circumstances anyway.
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Arti_Rei wrote:
Phoenix_Wright wrote:
kay's continuesly changing personallity.


If you're serious about what you said(which I don't doubt you are), this is what I mean by being bipolar.


"bipolar".........what does that mean? :eh?:

anyway,i am series about what i said,poeple normally have times when they are series,times when they are sad and times when they are cheerfull and other times for other types of feelings.

a person who is sad the whole time,not good.

a person who is series and busniss like the whole time,not good.

a person who is loughing the whole time,not good,especially in funerals.

there's no such thing as a fixed mood,in such poeple's mood's differ,so does kay's,and as i explained,the reason she smile's most of the time is becouse

Spoiler: case 4
it's one of her promises to her father.

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KingRaptor wrote:
On further reflection, while Kay's motive for chasing Yew was revenge (or more charitably, bringing her to justice; I don't think she actually thought of it in terms of personal vengeance), it likely wasn't her main (or even a major) motivation for becoming the Yatagarasu; that would be her hero worship of her father. Being hopelessly naive and idealistic is a fault in itself but it's certainly better than being vindictive.


Good point. I knew she got excited knowing her father was some kind of hero, but I also thought the partiality of being the second Yatagarasu means to get revenge on the murderer of the first Yatagarasu, kind of like a payback of sorts.

Quote:
It's a valid enough definition on the face of it, but I don't think it's a very useful one - besides it not being commonly used, the meaning of 'ridiculous' can be stretched to encompass almost anything. Is Mask*deMasque a Sue? Larry? Oldbag? Klavier?

But I disgress-


Nah I don't use "ridiculous" to describe most of the AA characters, except of course Redd White and Luke Atmey(actually, Klavier also fell into my list, along with Lauren Paups and Lance Amano). "Silly" sure, but not "ridiculous". And while that word's definition can be used on a broadened perspective, it does pertain to something/someone not very believable. I read a handful of Mary Sue fictions and it began to dawn on me that a lot of them fall into the "Ridiculous" category. "Raunchy" refers to the obscenity that haunts the paragraphs in several chapters(My Immortal was one of the best/worst examples of this). Well, Kay at least isn't a raunchy character, since she has the decency to wear shorts under her skirt.

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A character doesn't have to be heroic (from the viewer's perspective) to be a Sue and/or well-liked though. Everyone loves Franzy and Lang, despite all the counts of assault for one and the wrongful arrests for the other.


I like those two too, but it didn't happen until I saw redeemable qualities in them at the very end. I began to like Fran at the end of 2-4 because she actually showed a weakness she couldn't cover up anymore, leading me to think she can't be all that bad, and my respect for Lang went up when he did everything in his capability to strip Alba of his extraterritorial rights. And heroism is an act done based on a character's ideals and ambitions, whether or not for a good cause or a heroic trait that they can't rid themselves of. Sues just seem to get away with anything and come out looking good no matter what they do.

Quote:
How does Edgeworth change anything, though? He can no more accept Kay's stolen-electronically-rather-than-physically evidence than the police can, and if he starts accepting such evidence from her on a regular basis he could be guilty of anything from failure to report a crime to aiding and abetting. Reformed!Edgeworth would refuse such help under almost all circumstances anyway.


No no, I didn't say he'd just accept the evidence, though I must have implied that. Naturally, there is going to be a conflict between his embracing the laws and getting the right guy arrested without fake evidence. And while evidence illegally obtained by a hacker was the most proof anyone could find of a case, Edgeworth investigating on things based on his information could lead to something. It's not impossible. I just read a brilliant book mirroring this scenario.
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
Phoenix_Wright wrote:
kay's continuesly changing personallity.


If you're serious about what you said(which I don't doubt you are), this is what I mean by being bipolar.


"bipolar".........what does that mean? :eh?:


As a Psychology major, I'd rather not call someone "bipolar". It kind of attaches a stigma to the disorder (yes, that kind of word shouldn't be thrown around carelessly). Anyway, that aside, I'll whip out my Abnormal Psychology book (Kring et. al, 2010) to answer your question. :edgy:

There are two different types of bipolar disorder. One is characterized by a manifested episode of mania, which can mean either being intensely ticked or intensely happy. Said episode must last for a day or two and must impair everyday functioning - in short, it interferes with your daily life. The diagnosis of the other is comprised of one major depressive episode and one lesser episode of mania (but which can still be classified as mania). The bottom line is, when you say someone has bipolar disorder, their mood can indeed swing from one huge extreme to another and last for more than just a day.

And to stay on topic, in my opinion, Kay isn't a Sue; Sue-ness is relative, and though there are standards we all recognize, our lenience and personal criteria differ. I may be biased because I actually enjoyed her character, and I thought she worked very well with Edgeworth, Gumshoe and everyone else. What I think she needs is more character development; the other assistant characters got way more screen time than she did, so we're forced to argue with only the facts we have been given over the course of one game and three cases. The rest will be conjecture.

On a random note, I'd like to say that there are set criteria for Ace Assistants, it seems.

1. Teenage girl or at least below 20
2. Brunette
3. Specializing in a field that is hardly related to law (spirit channeling, magic, thievery)
4. Able to engage in banter and ladder debate with an Ace Attorney

Spoiler: The others may be spoilery for all games.
5. Lost at least one parent
6. Has a past that is intertwined with that of at least one other lawyer
7. Said past must be dark
8. Has entered the courtroom at least once for non-assistant purposes (Maya was Phoenix's second defendant, Trucy was with her father during his trial, and Kay was also with her dad while he was prosecuting)


Why did I present these criteria? It's entirely possible that someone out there will consider anyone who fulfills them a Mary Sue by default (and I mean the first three under the spoiler cut XDDDD). What is Sue-ish for one person may be tolerable and so not Sue-ish for another. It's a very strained, out-there comparison, but the point is, in this debate, there is no right or wrong answer. There are what we perceive to be right arguments and wrong tangents, but that is perception - and I don't mean the :odoroki: kind. ^_~
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wow,thank's you cleared up that one for me,I don't really think kay has any type of disorder.

and nice discoveries,i don't beleave i didn't see those many things in common :gant-clap:

I guess there's no right and wrong with the few amount of info we have,so we've got to choices:

1.enjoy the charectars with very good reasons and thus enjoy the game more.

2.get annoyed from the charectars presence with very good reasons and thus enjoy the game less.

I think the answer's obvious :keylady:
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A valid medical diagnosis, doc. So what do you call a person who swings from one mood to another in an instant?
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Arti_Rei wrote:
A valid medical diagnosis, doc. So what do you call a person who swings from one mood to another in an instant?


A normal human being who know's when to be series,when to be happy....etc

Spoiler: case 4
and sometimes forgets and other times remember's her promise to her father.

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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
A valid medical diagnosis, doc. So what do you call a person who swings from one mood to another in an instant?


A normal human being who know's when to be series,when to be happy....etc

Spoiler: case 4
and sometimes forgets and other times remember's her promise to her father.


Someone who is either on the cusp of adulthood or simply moody. ^_^

Not everyone who gets moody is diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I did mention that said episodes of mania must last for a day, not have a coherent reason (or there may be but the reaction is inordinate) or more AND interfere with daily functioning. So...let's take one case. You're the CEO of a big company and you've landed a great deal with a huge firm or something like that. It's perfectly acceptable for you to be in high spirits and be immensely proud of yourself BUT you can still go about your routine. You eat, talk to other people, work, go home and sleep like usual.

The problem with psychological disorders is that if you're not careful or observant, you can mistake normal emotional responses or even personality traits for diagnostic criteria.

(...why do I ramble like this XD :udgy: )

Going back to Kay...

Spoiler: AAI-4 and 3-5
She was ten when her father was murdered, and I can imagine her being torn between letting out her feelings (of DESPAIR) and keeping promises she made with her dad - to give everyone a smile (except prosecutors who bully nice detectives :eh?: ) and to not cry. It can be a strain for a kid, because when many kids promise, they go to great lengths to keep their end of the bargain; that's how innocent and straightforward they can be. Remember Pearly from 3-5? Her mother was sent to jail and had a plan cooked up to get rid of Maya. The poor girl had quite the inner struggle upon realizing what would have happened if everything had gone according to Morgan's plan.

So loli!Kay's mood swings? Explainable, with a situation to which she can react accordingly. Think about it - loss of a loved one can change someone's moods and way of thinking, but not permanently (unless said person is so psychologically unstable that they cave in and come down with major depressive disorder or anything that requires professional help). First, she got the news that her dad was killed. Then, she had to think of her next course of action. Eventually, grief overcame her and it just had to spill out.

But because she holds on to the promise she made with Byrne, she picks herself up again. We have no way of knowing if she truly feels that way too inside, or if that smile was just a front. You can easily imagine Kay hurting inside but insisting on putting on a brave face for everyone. Perhaps...she even had practice because of said promise that she has been keeping close to her heart for - who knows - years.

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I'm the sort of person who prefers to love characters, not hate them. I've liked ALL the AA characters so far, even the ones everyone loves to hate, like Iris. I wouldn't have had a problem with Kay if her very presence in the game wasn't so detrimental. (At least in my opinion)

Edgeworth's logic goes through these ridiculously extended and roundabout paths just so we can use Kay's Little Thief a little longer. Gumshoe's character was butchered, changed from a bumbling but dedicated detective to a completely incompetent idiot. And why? To make Kay look more competent of course! And then the fact that so much of the plot revolves around Kay, to the point that SHE has more of an emotional investment in the story than EDGEWORTH, and yet not giving us any real reason to care about her.

Again, I find Edgeworth's acceptance of her to be out of character and so jarring it broke my suspension of belief. She's a random teenager (and I mean random because when she first appeared, he did NOT remember her at all, so she was as good as a stranger) who mocked him, proceeded to display supreme idiocy by trying to jump down a ladder, and then kept threatening to steal things. WHY would Edgeworth let this girl anywhere NEAR his crime scene investigation? Yes, I know Phoenix lets young girls do so, but he had a personal connection to all of the assistants he's had, thus giving him a reason to tolerate them, and plus it's simply in his character to be a bit of a pushover. Edgeworth is NOT Phoenix.

The whole Gatewaterland scene where Lang takes Oldbag and Ema away as witnesses (despite the fact that Ema witnessed NOTHING) but then left Kay (despite the fact that Kay HAD seen the dead body) made NO sense. Lang took Gumshoe away, took Edgeworth's witnesses, but Kay? Oh she's fine. Don't worry about it.

Most characters seem to be oddly accommodating of Kay, who does little to be likeable in return. Do I think Franziska should have whipped Kay when she had just lost her father? Of course not! But really, for Franziska to praise someone like that? It seems a stretch. I don't remember Franziska complimenting Maya's strength for how she handled losing her mother, even after Pearl confronted her for being so mean. I found Kay's mocking of Gumshoe to be downright cruel. Gumshoe hadn't done a thing to provoke it, and is wasn't like she even KNEW Gumshoe to have that sort of rapport with him.

The storyline suffers to accommodate Kay even when it's illogical. (Even the creators have said they kept rewriting things around Kay.) Characterization suffers so that Kay can be everyone's darling. Her personality tries to encompass too many quirky/cute personality types and ends up being all over the map. Her entire "incompetence" schtick isn't even consistent! With Maya in AA 1, she was a consistently weak spirit medium. Maya had to work and struggle to improve her powers. Kay's level of competence seemed to depend on whatever plot device was needed at the time.

She's a self-insert wish fulfillment for Edgeworth fangirls. I love Edgeworth as much as the next gal, but you know what I love more? Compelling, organic feeling characters, even when they're in crazy situations or of ridiculous origins.

Don't get me started on Kay saving Edgeworth's life when she was just a baby.
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My dear child you are quite mistaken.

the reason the other charectars didn't have as much involvment in AAI as kay is becouse probably this is kay's big hit,and also becouse said charectars have really good chances in the next GS game,so it's save to say oldbag will have little to no involvment in gs5 at all.

as for edgeworth letting kay around the crime scene,he owed her as much becouse without her coming and freeing edgeworth,he wouldn't have even been able to make it to the crime scene,not before agent lang did what he wanted and then it would be too late.

as for her not being one of the struggling charectars,starting weak and working up to be strong,kay was excesivly training hard offscreen during the years,unlike our other assistant maya,who learned her lesson in case 1-4(she isn't useless,but it's better if master's the abilaty to call spirits)

Spoiler: end of case 5
also,kay was only joking when she threatened gumshoe to take his spot as edgeworth's assistant,as shown at the end of case 5


and how could her actions not make her likeable,she helped edgeworth in the invistigation

Spoiler: case 4
has a chummy type of friendship with gumshoe


and franziska praised her becouse she was a 10 year old girl at the time,as i am sure franziska was unable to hit 8 year old pearl when she was saying bad stuff about franziska,so how could fransizka then hit a 10 year old that didn't anger her,let alone acted strongly for her age.

as for her being all over the map,the only case in which she had almost as much screen time as edgeworth is case 3,in case's 1 and 2 she isn't introduced yet

Spoiler: case 4
in case 4 she has few apearances compared to that of the other charectars of case 4


Spoiler: case 5
and in case five she almost had as much involvment as franziska or gumshoe or agent lang

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I was thinking about this the other day and decided to put Kay through the Mary Sue Litmus Test for shits and giggles (though the test isn't so accommodating to non-fantasy characters). My opinion of her is more that she's poorly characterized as opposed to a Mary Sue, but regardless the score she received as a "Fan Character & Newcomer" was 66, which is over 30% higher than an irredeemable "Kill it dead".

I did make a few assumptions that raised her score though (like classifying the author/'you' as a typical fangirl, and the Little Thief as a weapon), so it's probably best to put her through yourself, if you're interested. I'm not using this as an argument or anything, I just thought it was funny.

Edit: Before someone draws the "but all AA characters would be Sues because of blahblahblah" card, Edgeworth got a 40 on the same test.
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Auste wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
A valid medical diagnosis, doc. So what do you call a person who swings from one mood to another in an instant?


Phoenix_Justice wrote:
A normal human being who know's when to be series,when to be happy....etc

Spoiler: case 4
and sometimes forgets and other times remember's her promise to her father.


Someone who is either on the cusp of adulthood or simply moody. ^_^


Thank you. :phoenix:
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Litmus test
How'd you get a 66 for Kay? I did the same test (Kay as newcomer character) and hit 32, which is still pretty high but not a sixty-six. (Treating her as a canon character gets a paltry 20).

Spoiler: For fun, here's the scores I got for the characters I tested (doing Kay, Trucy and Franziska as both canon and newcomer characters)
Maya: 28 (mostly due to her Fey power/role)
Ema (young and adult): 12
Trucy: 12/21
Kay: 24/32
Edgeworth: 32
Franziska: 17/32

Spoiler: Answers I gave for reference
MAYA
Score: 28

Part 1
1 e j
2
7 a
18 d
22
23 f
58
62
68
71
75
77 a
78 d

Part 2
2
3 3b
5
7

Part 5
1
2
12 12b
13

EMA (young and adult)
Score: 12

Part 1
1 c
5 a
19
28
41
77 a

Part 2
3 b
5

Part 5
1
2
12

TRUCY (canon/newcomer)
Score: 12/21

Part 1
1 c
19
44
58
70
77 a b

Part 2 (canon)

Part 3 (newcomer)
14
16 16a

Part 5

KAY (canon/newcomer)
Score: 20/32

Part 1
2
5 5a
18 c
30
32
58
62
65 a
77 a b

Part 2 (canon)
3
7

Part 3 (newcomer)
14
15
16 16g
17
30
34
38 38a

Part 5
1
2
12 12b

EDGEWORTH
Score: 32

Part 1
5 5a
6 6a
18 d
32
40
44 44a
46 (1) 46a
60
61 61a
72
77 a b d e
84 84b 84c
86 a b c
87 87b

Part 2
3
5

Part 5
1
9
12 12b
13

FRANZISKA (canon/newcomer)
Score: 17/32

Part 1
1 e
2
13 c
18 d
32
33
34
44 44a
46 (1) 46a
59
70
72
86 b

Part 2 (canon)

Part 3 (newcomer)
6
7
8
16 16a 16b
30
36

Part 5
1
2
13
14

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Last edited by KingRaptor on Sat May 22, 2010 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Arti_Rei wrote:
Auste wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
A valid medical diagnosis, doc. So what do you call a person who swings from one mood to another in an instant?


Phoenix_Justice wrote:
A normal human being who know's when to be series,when to be happy....etc

Spoiler: case 4
and sometimes forgets and other times remember's her promise to her father.


Someone who is either on the cusp of adulthood or simply moody. ^_^


Thank you. :phoenix:


I beleave Auste didn't mean to completly crush my deducation like some nonesense that came from a 6 year old :sadshoe:
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
I beleave Auste didn't mean to completly crush my deducation like some nonesense that came from a 6 year old :sadshoe:


You call having mood swings normal?
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Arti_Rei wrote:
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
I beleave Auste didn't mean to completly crush my deducation like some nonesense that came from a 6 year old :sadshoe:


You call having mood swings normal?


most normal human beings change their moods often,infact,being stuck to one mood isn't good,and as i said,there are the times she remembers her promise.
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Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
You call having mood swings normal?


most normal human beings change their moods often,infact,being stuck to one mood isn't good,and as i said,there are the times she remembers her promise.


Different moods appropriate to different situations =/= sudden and unpredictable mood swings.
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pleadingeyes wrote:
Phoenix_Justice wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
You call having mood swings normal?


most normal human beings change their moods often,infact,being stuck to one mood isn't good,and as i said,there are the times she remembers her promise.


Different moods appropriate to different situations =/= sudden and unpredictable mood swings.


ooops,my bad,you win,kay is a moody charectar.
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KingRaptor wrote:
Litmus test
How'd you get a 66 for Kay? I did the same test (Kay as newcomer character) and hit 32, which is still pretty high but not a sixty-six.

Well that's a pretty huge difference >__> I didn't record the answers I gave that time, so I'm not sure how I got her score up that high. I just re-did it and she gets between 45 and 55, depending on how freely I interpret the questions.

Spoiler:
A couple answers I gave that you didn't:
  • Name chosen because it had special meaning (applies to all AA characters)
  • Driven by revenge
  • Occupation is glamorous and exciting
  • Little Thief is unique and has special significance
  • Renowned (as the Yatagarasu, even though she's not the original)
  • Witnessed Daddy's death (well, the events immediately succeeding it, which would be just as traumatizing)
  • Little Thief is unusual for the setting
  • Remarkably similar history to Edgeworth
  • Takes over Gumshoe's job as sidekick
  • Vital to the resolution of the plot


Curious, what did Kay do that only a canon character should have done?
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Spoiler: Crack theory time!
Kay has a rare disorder which amplifies normal mood and personality changes by a factor of ten. The only known treatment is a mixture of chemical compounds commonly found in Swiss rolls, which must be consumed at regular intervals.

You can imagine Kay's horror when she found that none of the vending machines at the embassy had any.


Marshmello wrote:
Curious, what did Kay do that only a canon character should have done?

Huh. I'd actually gone back and unchecked the box, but forgot to remove the answer from my log <_<
My original rationale was the infamous "Kay gives Edgeworth morale boost at the critical moment" scene, but then I figured a canon character shouldn't have done it either.
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As much as I've enjoyed the MS Litmus Test, you really can't apply it to canon characters, despite the test having special sections just for that. The first part is all about answering questions as if you created the character, but unless you're drawing from staff interviews that's not something we can speculate on (like, if Iwamoto thinks Kay's cute enough to date, etc). And the newcomer section of the test was conceived assuming you're adding a character you created to someone else's canon, not that the creators are adding characters to their own canon. The test wasn't made with Kay's situation in mind.

Not to mention things like "Kay's name has a special meaning because that's how AA rolls" or "Kay has a special occupation because all AA sidekicks are eccentric teen girls with weird jobs" and so on. Everything that is special about Kay is a function of a roll that's been inhabited several times before, so I don't think it's fair to count it against her.
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I did say it was for shits and giggles...

Anyway, having an unbalanced personality doesn't mean that Kay has some sort of disorder. There are plenty of people on this forum on the "cusp of adulthood" who can reliably attest that that's not a justified excuse for Kay's behaviour, either. She doesn't suffer from mood swings, she's just terribly inconsistent in her characterization.
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I don't really think the Litmus Test is helping, but there are some bits there that quite frankly worry me, like "Does she save a canon character's life?" and "Does she replace a canon character's role?" Like others, I didn't like how Gumshoe was just dragged off for case 3, even with all the mean fourth-wall-breaking comments. And was it really necessary for her to save our beloved Edgey? Twice?
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pleadingeyes wrote:
She's a self-insert wish fulfillment for Edgeworth fangirls.Don't get me started on Kay saving Edgeworth's life when she was just a baby.

Interestingly enough, I think Ema is the 'assistant' who is the most the 'fangirl self insert' char. I mean, her whole fangirl crush on Edgeworth in 1-5 and even her general 'affection' for Phoenix/distaste for events in GS4.

Quote:
And was it really necessary for her to save our beloved Edgey? Twice?

How else to force the story to Edgey so keen to associate with her? Of course, this itself says something about her 'depiction'...

Shallow characterisation, yes. More like a Mary Sue than the other 'assistants', yes. IS Mary Sue? I'd say no.

Quote:
so it's save to say oldbag will have little to no involvment in gs5 at all.


I don't think so, I'm sure Matsukawa said something about liking Oldbag, or maybe it was just liking her name. I'd take Oldbag over Meekins any day anyway...
Maybe Meekins will be the victim in GS5 and Oldbag the suspect!
Tutorial case: Phoenix is taking the bar exam, but Meekins gets murdered during it. Because a murder DURING the bar exam is just the luck Phoenix would have.</OT>


Quote:
kay was excesivly training hard offscreen during the years


To do WHAT? Kay talked a lot about being a Great Thief for the 'truth' but she didn't seem to back up her talk with much action except Little Thief which was invented by her FATHER so she just supplied it. Though I AM grateful they worked these computer reconstruction sequences into the explicable plot rather than inexplicably pulling them out of thin air like the MASON System. In all honesty I got the impression Kay intended to follow in her 'father's footsteps' as the Yatagarasu but it was a sort of imaginary ideal which she had no idea of the actual details to carry out, and so was NOT 'working toward' this in any coherent manner. But she got fired up with random impulsive actions every so often, like chasing after Shih-na .
I think the failure to RESPOND to the shocking revelation of the true nature of the Yatagarasu, so different to her belief, is the biggest failure of her characterisation. The fact she took it so lightly seems to suggest also she wasn't into this Yatagarasu thing 24/7.
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icer wrote:
Interestingly enough, I think Ema is the 'assistant' who is the most the 'fangirl self insert' char. I mean, her whole fangirl crush on Edgeworth in 1-5 and even her general 'affection' for Phoenix/distaste for events in GS4.


Can't argue with that. I played Rise from the Ashes again to see what Ema was gushing over Edgeworth for, which consisted of: Edgey climbing sexily up the bookcase ladder(w/c he really can't do without sweating buckets lol), Edgey falling asleep on his sofa and having 'sofa hair'(described in great detail), and Edgey's apple-cider(??) breath when he sighs(Warning: Ema has the potential to be a stalker!). The rest probably goes quietly into her little notepad for 'forensical documenting'. :godot:

Quote:
Shallow characterisation, yes. More like a Mary Sue than the other 'assistants', yes. IS Mary Sue? I'd say no.


Yaaaaay. Makes sense.

Quote:
Maybe Meekins will be the victim in GS5 and Oldbag the suspect!
Tutorial case: Phoenix is taking the bar exam, but Meekins gets murdered during it. Because a murder DURING the bar exam is just the luck Phoenix would have.</OT>


LOL!

Quote:
In all honesty I got the impression Kay intended to follow in her 'father's footsteps' as the Yatagarasu but it was a sort of imaginary ideal which she had no idea of the actual details to carry out, and so was NOT 'working toward' this in any coherent manner. But she got fired up with random impulsive actions every so often, like chasing after Shih-na .
I think the failure to RESPOND to the shocking revelation of the true nature of the Yatagarasu, so different to her belief, is the biggest failure of her characterisation. The fact she took it so lightly seems to suggest also she wasn't into this Yatagarasu thing 24/7.


Agreed. Among all the cute assistants making it into the series so far, it's only Kay who made the Yatagarasu occupation sound like a hobby rather than a role/job to play in society for life(i.e. spirit mediums, forensics) or even a family-inherited role/job to play in society for life(i.e. spirit mediums, stage magic).
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Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:58 pm

Posts: 846

Arti_Rei wrote:
icer wrote:
Interestingly enough, I think Ema is the 'assistant' who is the most the 'fangirl self insert' char. I mean, her whole fangirl crush on Edgeworth in 1-5 and even her general 'affection' for Phoenix/distaste for events in GS4.


Can't argue with that. I played Rise from the Ashes again to see what Ema was gushing over Edgeworth for, which consisted of: Edgey climbing sexily up the bookcase ladder(w/c he really can't do without sweating buckets lol), Edgey falling asleep on his sofa and having 'sofa hair'(described in great detail), and Edgey's apple-cider(??) breath when he sighs(Warning: Ema has the potential to be a stalker!). The rest probably goes quietly into her little notepad for 'forensical documenting'. :godot:


I feel like Ema was made more to parody the fangirls than to provide wish-fulfillment fantasies for them. I mean, despite her fangirlism she doesn't really get to spend that much time with Edgeworth like Kay does, or save his life or "warm his ice-cold heart" or whatever. The fangirls don't want to be fangirls, they want to be Kay.
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