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Anyone else find the AAI games harder to replay than usual?Topic%20Title
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First, before I begin, know that I LOVE AAI. In fact, I like the first AAI equally (if not more sometimes) than T&T. Same goes for AAI2. My first time playing them, they were incredible, and after that it was still pretty fun.

However, I'm replaying them now and I'm finding I'm getting pretty burned out every time I play. This doesn't have anything to do with the story or the characters; it has everything to do with the pacing. Generally I'm into the game during the investigations but I dread when the rebuttals come up which is strange because its the core AA game mechanic and I really enjoy it in the main series. I think what it is is that in the main games you have 3 days max and the gameplay is broken up from courtroom to investigation which are separate parts of the game. In AAI, though, both can happen at any time and as many times as the developers want in a case. The part that really bugs me are the ends of cases. In the main games you always know when you're on the last day of the trial and you know when you're about to get to the final challenge. In AAI you don't usually have those clues. Case in point the infamous Alba finale, where you just keep doing it again and again and you don't know when it will end and when you eventually do it happens really fast and without a lot of buildup. For some reason the cross-examinations in AAI drive me crazy. it could be that I always press everything no matter how many times I've played the game, so maybe I've gotten a little bored of analyzing a contradiction I know the answer to for 20 minutes, but on the other hand I feel like I'm not really getting the whole thing if I don't do that. Like I said, it doesn't usually bother me in the main games though.

Anyone else feel this way or is it just me? Like I said, its purely pacing; story-wise I still think they're great.
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I've always thought that the rebuttals were the worst part of the AAI series. They lack the charm of the Cross-Examinations and don't add anything. Most of the time they feel unnecessary , because you usually have evidence that proves something quite clearly on its own but you can't use it until someone denies it, which is quite stupid. You almost never discover anything new during them, either, so what's the point? In the main series games it makes sense thanks to the setting, but in AAI it feels like the game trying to be too much like the original and failing.
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I actually remember disliking the rebuttals when I played GK2 for the first time as well. It was mainly for the reasons mentioned above, I preferred to learn new stuff then just proving stuff I already knew to other people. I mainly enjoyed seeing the case continue during Investigations segments. The only time I really like the rebuttals was the last rebuttals with the killer before you caught them, because then I usually learned new things about how the crime was committed.
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I definitely didn't mind them originally, but now that you mention it it does seem like the rebuttals tend to be more about proving your theory rather than actually uncovering new information. That might be it.

I wonder how they could improve this in a hypothetical GK3? I almost think it would be better if they included more GK elements into the main series' investigations and just went from there. Or bring court into AAI a little bit, but at that point is it really AAI anymore?
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I wasn't too fond of the rebuttals either, they always felt a bit weird too, like who shouts 'objection' outside a courtroom? Some of the theories characters came up with felt a tad tacked on, like they were there for the sake of more rebuttal sections. Whereas in the main game, those being cross examined need to have a counter theory to save their skin and whatnot, while it's not as necessary in AAI.

But I didn't mind them too much in AAI2, maybe because we had logic chess to spice things up every once in a while.
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lonechallenger wrote:
I wasn't too fond of the rebuttals either, they always felt a bit weird too, like who shouts 'objection' outside a courtroom?


Phoenix did once in 1-5, when Edgeworth was telling the 'contradiction' story. :gant:

But yeah, it felt weird to have the arguments set up as though it were an actual courtroom. Almost makes court itself pointless.
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Jean Descole wrote:
lonechallenger wrote:
I wasn't too fond of the rebuttals either, they always felt a bit weird too, like who shouts 'objection' outside a courtroom?


Phoenix did once in 1-5, when Edgeworth was telling the 'contradiction' story. :gant:

But yeah, it felt weird to have the arguments set up as though it were an actual courtroom. Almost makes court itself pointless.


See, the weird thing is, that kind of thing doesn't bother me, as I just think of it as necessary in order to get the core AA series gameplay in there. I don't actually think my issues with the game are a problem when being played for the first time, or even the second time. It only really became a problem for me upon playing it for the 3rd, 4th time, etc. and I guess that's partly my fault because with a mystery game like this you start to lose something with each replay. Or at least at the rate I've done it:
(Side story - forgive the ramble): After getting back into the series by playing AAI for the first time, I proceeded to play all of the others again over the course of 2012. Then in the fall of 2013 I played through them again (including a combination of fan translation beta and internet translation of AAI2) for DD. Then in 2014 I did it over again for VS. After that, I said I wouldn't do it over again for years, but AA6 was announced and I suddenly got the urge to play them again, but this time I didn't make the mistake of waiting and playing them all over the course of 2 months (this burnt me out pretty heavily before DD was even released, and as a result I ended up quitting DD for a month or so which normally never happens. I usually finish a new AA game in days.). This time I started AA1 last September - more than a year ahead of my estimated release date for GS6 - so that I would have enough time to lost interest and get it back a couple times. I found it more enjoyable than it had been in a long time. I played through JFA and T&T with the same level of enjoyment. I had some difficulty sometimes really enjoying VS but that's more because of the strange format and case structure.

I started feeling kind of bored through AAI, and that's when I really started feeling this issue. I was still enjoying myself, though, so I started AAI2, and looking back I shouldn't have done that because about halfway through case 2 I could tell I was done with AA for a long time. I ended up not playing for like 3 months. Now I'm in a position where I kind of want to beat it soon so that when I get the AA urge again later on I can just jump into the AJ era rather than try and finish a game I started half a year ago. So I'm playing through it now and I seriously feel a little annoyed whenever a rebuttal segment comes up. I feel like it halts the story pacing and progression for the reasons you guys have listed. But I'm having fun with it so I'll keep playing until I get bored again.

I think the problem is that having Edgeworth as the "investigator" is already ridiculous enough (Phoenix does similar things but he tends to do more interviewing and just picking stuff up rather than really getting involved in the investigation), so they need to tie it into the law and into his character somehow. If I could pick anything I wanted for the next AAI game, I'd pick the team's original idea of an investigation game with Ema. Ema wouldn't be doing rebuttals or anything to do with legal stuff, so the game would be just investigating and finding the criminal. I think the game would have a much better pace and would feel more focused. But that's never going to happen At this point I wonder if a GK3 is going to happen, for the record. with Takumi and the AAI team both working on non-GK games, I think we may just be getting DGS and AA games, and I'm ok with that.
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i just want to actually play as a prosecutor in court plz
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Mister Gruel wrote:
i just want to actually play as a prosecutor in court plz


I would too, although I've never genuinely been able to think of a gameplay system which would work with that. It couldn't be the same as the defense, but then what would the prosecutor do? Other games have done it in the past (such as the law & Order games) but they have a different legal system than AA so I'm not sure.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
I think the problem is that having Edgeworth as the "investigator" is already ridiculous enough

Yeah, that's something that made me scratch my head. I know very little about law, and even less about lawyers, but I was surprised to see a prosecutor leading an investigation (and on top of that, being the most active role in that). I always thought it was the detective who leads the investigation and the prosecutor makes a case for court out of the evidence.
But ever since AAI, I'm not sure of anything anymore...
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Nurio wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
I think the problem is that having Edgeworth as the "investigator" is already ridiculous enough

Yeah, that's something that made me scratch my head. I know very little about law, and even less about lawyers, but I was surprised to see a prosecutor leading an investigation (and on top of that, being the most active role in that). I always thought it was the detective who leads the investigation and the prosecutor makes a case for court out of the evidence.
But ever since AAI, I'm not sure of anything anymore...

Depends on the system per country. In Japan, a prosecutor has the same investigatory powers as a policeman (able to interrogate suspects, make arrests etc.) and is flowchart-wise also able to make orders to policemen (in regards of the investigation). Practically though, a prosecutor is usually busy with a lot of cases, so the police will do the primary investigation and prepare a case to send to the DA's office. There they go over the evidence, perform extra investigation (that's why they need investigative powers) and then decide whether to go to court or not.

But legally, a prosecutor can act quite hands-on if they wanted do (pre-war, the prosecutor was the one who always led police investigations, actually, like the old 'magistrates' of France). But even now, investigation for a lot of big cases start from within the DA's office, not from the police (organized crime, corruption in the police etc.).
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Mister Gruel wrote:
i just want to actually play as a prosecutor in court plz


I would too, although I've never genuinely been able to think of a gameplay system which would work with that. It couldn't be the same as the defense, but then what would the prosecutor do? Other games have done it in the past (such as the law & Order games) but they have a different legal system than AA so I'm not sure.


How about, instead of leading investigations, the prosecutor could do "logic" sequences where they piece together evidence that Gumshoe's team has collected? Okay, I realize that's basically AAI without the investigation, but it would make more sense. And if it gets too boring, the prosecutor could still visit a witness or two (like Franziska did with Acro and Adrian).
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Nurio wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
I think the problem is that having Edgeworth as the "investigator" is already ridiculous enough

Yeah, that's something that made me scratch my head. I know very little about law, and even less about lawyers, but I was surprised to see a prosecutor leading an investigation (and on top of that, being the most active role in that). I always thought it was the detective who leads the investigation and the prosecutor makes a case for court out of the evidence.
But ever since AAI, I'm not sure of anything anymore...


I'm not even sure there is a reason. They probably just used Miles Edgeworth because he's a popular character. Supposedly they were considering having adult Ema Skye as the main character, which would have made more sense.
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No, since AAI is my favourite game in the series. In fact, whenever I replay all the Ace Attorney games, AAI is the one I look forward to playing the most!

Apollo Justice on the other hand...
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
No, since AAI is my favourite game in the series. In fact, whenever I replay all the Ace Attorney games, AAI is the one I look forward to playing the most!

Apollo Justice on the other hand...


I really love AAI as well, especially from a story sense, but I just don't really like the rebuttals anymore. I'd love an AAI game with just investigations (and probably some new mechanic to shake things up). It's strange, I am playing AJ right now and court isn't bugging me so I know that it isn't that I'm tired of the AA gameplay (which is usually what happens when I try and play them all 2 months or so before a new one comes out.)

I actually love Apollo Justice as well (in fact I think it's my favorite AA game) although I see why people have issues with it.
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First of all: yes, I agree that the Rebuttal sequences were reduced to just "proving your theory right" instead of the classic feeling of a Cross-Examination: to find out about something and later use it in your favor on your case.

The feeling of "finding stuff out" from a Cross-Examination was segregated into the Logic system. You placed one and one together and reached to conclusions that either clarified a doubt, or discovered something new.

So that's why Rebuttals feel like a chore: because they're Cross-Examinations, minus the new information segments.

Jean Descole wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
Mister Gruel wrote:
i just want to actually play as a prosecutor in court plz


I would too, although I've never genuinely been able to think of a gameplay system which would work with that. It couldn't be the same as the defense, but then what would the prosecutor do? Other games have done it in the past (such as the law & Order games) but they have a different legal system than AA so I'm not sure.


How about, instead of leading investigations, the prosecutor could do "logic" sequences where they piece together evidence that Gumshoe's team has collected? Okay, I realize that's basically AAI without the investigation, but it would make more sense. And if it gets too boring, the prosecutor could still visit a witness or two (like Franziska did with Acro and Adrian).

^^^ I like this idea. We can have Ema or Gumshoe work on the investigation, and when they're ready, they present Edgeworth with all the evidence they've gathered and Edgey goes into a broader logic sequence and pieces the case out. And if he has any doubt, he himself can go and question the witness (or the police questioned the witness and Worthy can listen to a recording).

Perhaps GK/AAI could work like the investigative segments of Trauma Team with Naomi Kimishima? Gumshoe could be our Little Guy. xDD
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
I really love AAI as well, especially from a story sense, but I just don't really like the rebuttals anymore. I'd love an AAI game with just investigations (and probably some new mechanic to shake things up). It's strange, I am playing AJ right now and court isn't bugging me so I know that it isn't that I'm tired of the AA gameplay (which is usually what happens when I try and play them all 2 months or so before a new one comes out.)


I don't see how the rebuttals are any different from witness cross-examinations, especially as they both use the same mechanics.
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
I really love AAI as well, especially from a story sense, but I just don't really like the rebuttals anymore. I'd love an AAI game with just investigations (and probably some new mechanic to shake things up). It's strange, I am playing AJ right now and court isn't bugging me so I know that it isn't that I'm tired of the AA gameplay (which is usually what happens when I try and play them all 2 months or so before a new one comes out.)


I don't see how the rebuttals are any different from witness cross-examinations, especially as they both use the same mechanics.


That's true, but in court often you are cross-examining in hopes of getting new information - as in, by pressing and presenting at the statement you will suddenly have the case turned on its head, often shocking you just as much as the prosecution and putting some suspense into the mix. Often in AAI, it is the opponent who is arguing against your theory and instead you are trying to disprove their argument to match up with your reasoning - thereby meaning that rather than the shocking twist being a reward for completing a cross-examination, you get the twist beforehand and then have to defend it against scrutiny, which can be very fun but also doesn't have nearly the amount of mystery factor as the court segments, and it is the mystery that generally keeps me going.

That said, both series use both styles of cross-examination at times, so they aren't mutually exclusive, and that's just a small part of it for me. Most of my issues with it are about pacing, because in court you know when the timer is counting down and when the final showdown occurs. In AAI you really don't know how many rebuttals will be in a chapter, where they will be in the chapter, and how long they will be. It would be the same thing as if there were trial segments during the investigation portion of the main games, which would bug me just as much as the ones in AAI. It's all about the suspense of knowing the ending is coming for me.

But like I said, this is really only a problem for me on my 3rd, 4th, 5th replay. During my first couple times playing the games I didn't notice that much because it was all new.
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People who have known me over the course of the last couple of years will know exactly what I think about this. In short, the biggest strength in Ace Attorney to me is the characters, their interactions and the dialogue in general and naturally with some pretty great individual cases or plots there was a great sense of the whole of everything in the first couple of games, but what kept me invested was Nick's constant bantering with Maya, the dramatic twists and turns along the way. Then Mr. Yamazaki took the helm and well... while the dramatic twists and turns are kept, the constant bantering between the characters are just less than entertaining to read. In my opinion he and whoever scriptwriters he works with just can't capture that same genuine sense of great natural character interaction or sense of wit that Takumi has. The tell of the scripts and the character voices are not up to par either. The characters and the stories are great on paper but I find the execution to be rather hamfisted and robotic.

The result is that in both AAIs and DD to some extent the characters tend to drone on and on, their dialogue too often fixates on repeating the facts and whatever humor is going on often feels forced or just plain weird with smart characters saying weird things and dumb characters being so dumb it becomes farcical instead of genuinely funny.

A problem I had with AAI and AAI2 as opposed to DD is also something about the art and the tone of the story. It's okay because it's a spinoff which gives it some liberties to break out from the traditional formula but to me it feels like it doesn't have a very strong identity somehow. Whereas DD and the other mainline games have a very vibrant and playful cast I find both the locations and the characters of AAI and AAI2 to be kinda dull in their aesthetic and the level of energy to the writing is missing.

I think that's the biggest reason why I think the pacing suffers. The moment to moment quality of the script is downright bad IMO but it's on paper that it's actually rather good and it's in the longevity of it that the bigger plot-reveals and dramatic beats feel earned because they are reinforced and built up the hard way as the story moves along.
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I don't mean to start some kind of huge Yamazi vs Takuni debate, but I seriously don't notice a difference between the two. Neither of them seem worse than the other to me, and GK2 might still be my favorite game. But I suppose that could just be me.
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Planetbox wrote:
I don't mean to start some kind of huge Yamazi vs Takuni debate, but I seriously don't notice a difference between the two. Neither of them seem worse than the other to me, and GK2 might still be my favorite game. But I suppose that could just be me.


I'm of the opinion Yamazaki handles his own characters well. But it gets messy when he starts playing with Takumi's.
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Jean Descole wrote:
Planetbox wrote:
I don't mean to start some kind of huge Yamazi vs Takuni debate, but I seriously don't notice a difference between the two. Neither of them seem worse than the other to me, and GK2 might still be my favorite game. But I suppose that could just be me.


I'm of the opinion Yamazaki handles his own characters well. But it gets messy when he starts playing with Takumi's.

I think that's the key. Becuase whatever Yamazaki creates on his own stands on its own, and whenever he continues something that he didn't create there's always some slight change, maybe a different interpretation of it.

As for the pacing in AAI and GK2 being more exhausting, I have already argued it's the change in writers ad nauseum, but to be more specific, I'd say it has something to do with how events are revealed and how the game switches in a more impulsive way between investigating and arguing the facts, so whereas there's always that sense of buildup in the trilogy and DD from investigating to going to court where things get relatively stale before everything goes crazy, AAI has more of a pace of constantly being in the same atmosphere, and I think that makes it feel less exciting to sit through.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Generally I'm into the game during the investigations but I dread when the rebuttals come up which is strange because its the core AA game mechanic and I really enjoy it in the main series.


Well, the problem I have with the rebuttals in AAI1 is that they're kind of redundant. Edgeworth usually figures out everything before the rebuttals even start and you just have to repeat what he already told you.

Good thing they mostly fixed that for AAI2.
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Lusankya wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
Generally I'm into the game during the investigations but I dread when the rebuttals come up which is strange because its the core AA game mechanic and I really enjoy it in the main series.


Well, the problem I have with the rebuttals in AAI1 is that they're kind of redundant. Edgeworth usually figures out everything before the rebuttals even start and you just have to repeat what he already told you.

Good thing they mostly fixed that for AAI2.


Yeah this is kind of how I feel about them, although you could argue the main series cross-examinations have a lot of that too.

For me it isn't a Takumi vs. Yamazaki thing at all, as while I see their differences I tend to prefer the stand alone cases which have interesting hooks and don't focus as much on the main characters developing a lot (what I might call the "Law & Order" narrative style where Phoenix and Co. are making the story continue but aren't the stars of it) so I think I like Yamazaki's style as much if not more than Takumi's so it's not so much that as just the pacing and anticipation part of it. For me the cross-examinations in DD and T&T are equally interesting, it's just in the AAI style where I start to get tired and just want to go back to investigating.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Often in AAI, it is the opponent who is arguing against your theory and instead you are trying to disprove their argument to match up with your reasoning


Quote:
you get the twist beforehand and then have to defend it against scrutiny


As someone with a somewhat scientific mindset, I have no problem with both of these at all. In fact, I prefer it this way.

Quote:
Most of my issues with it are about pacing, because in court you know when the timer is counting down and when the final showdown occurs.


I was fine with the way AAI presented itself. Also, instead of comparing AAI with the main series like you do, I treat AAI as its own completely separate entity (like I do with the Mario platformers and Mario RPG series).

Quote:
In AAI you really don't know how many rebuttals will be in a chapter, where they will be in the chapter, and how long they will be.


Which I'm also fine with.
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That makes sense. Shows how this series can appeal to different interests and storytelling techniques. Personally I'm most interested in the Myster/Plot twist aspect so I almost like to be taken for a ride rather than actually come up with the theories by themselves. For example often in the game I'll spot a contradiction but after Phoenix points it out he'll go off in a completely different direction and I almost prefer that to knowing the contradiction myself since it's new to me as well.

And like I said, don't get me wrong, I love the AAI games (I've been rating all the games as I played through them over the last 6 months or so and I give AAI an 80% and AAI2 an 88% (compared to 92% for AA1, 85% for JFA, 88% for T&T, 75% for VS, and 95% for AJ (Haven't finished DD again yet)) so in my opinion the AAI games are still great games. This is only a problem for me after I've played multiple replays. 3-2 was a similar situation; I really liked it originally, but upon replays the case has really only one massive plot twist and then a reversal of the twist (Atmey is Demasque, oh wait actually it is Delite after all) and now after many replays of the case I tend to get bored of it. That's why I try not to factor that into my score, but it does mean personal enjoyment is taken away a bit.
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That's the problem with stories that live or die by their plot-twists. If that's all you care about then typically replays get underwhelming becuase now you know the story from inside and out. I find the humor and character interactions to be why I go back to stuff like 3-2. Luke Atmey is just too funny, but aside from those things it's stuff like seeing the characters struggle or when you reach a dramatic point in the story becuase you love seeing these characters react to the events as they unfold as opposed to being shocked. I don't even think shock/twist impact-value is very good in itself. It can be what makes a story keep you paying attention because you never know what's going to happen, but I think it's important that a story doesn't peak at the twist.

For example, KOTOR, dunno if anyone here played that. I find it kinda hard to replay it because really the first time it was kinda about its mystery and then it has a game-changing twist right at the end that I really liked, but then when you know that and see it coming, the story is actually kinda generic.
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linkenski wrote:
That's the problem with stories that live or die by their plot-twists. If that's all you care about then typically replays get underwhelming becuase now you know the story from inside and out. I find the humor and character interactions to be why I go back to stuff like 3-2. Luke Atmey is just too funny, but aside from those things it's stuff like seeing the characters struggle or when you reach a dramatic point in the story becuase you love seeing these characters react to the events as they unfold as opposed to being shocked. I don't even think shock/twist impact-value is very good in itself. It can be what makes a story keep you paying attention because you never know what's going to happen, but I think it's important that a story doesn't peak at the twist.

For example, KOTOR, dunno if anyone here played that. I find it kinda hard to replay it because really the first time it was kinda about its mystery and then it has a game-changing twist right at the end that I really liked, but then when you know that and see it coming, the story is actually kinda generic.


I played KOTOR and really enjoyed it (although in all honesty I knew about the twist beforehand but I bet it would have been a really big moment if you hadn't known about it). I think I'm also a little different in that I actually actually got a little sick of the zany characters in T&T (specifically Atmey, the guy with the strap fetish, Armstrong, and especially Godot - which I know is a very controversial opinion) and if you don't find a lot of enjoyment out of those characters then something is lost on the game, specifically 3-2 and 3-3. I actually like the characters much more in JFA but the circus case itself drags my score of it down a lot so T&T comes out in third place (with AA1 in 2nd and AJ in 1st) - especially because of the fantastic 3-4 and 3-5 which is also really good. I really enjoy cases like 1-3, 3-5, all of AJ, 5-2, etc. so I know it's not that I'm not into that kind of over-the-top, convoluted cases. (I even like the borderline X-Files-ish tone of 5-2, 3-5 and 4-3 (that creepy intro with the bodies disappearing and reappearing on the stage makes up for the massive "dislocating the shoulder" inconsistency in my opinion). So in theory, AAI should be right up my alley and in general it is, I only get bored of the rebuttals.

I don't personally have this problem with DD, either, which makes it clear to my that my problem is with how they're incorporated into the investigation segments. I think for me it's just that in the context of AAI I like investigating and all the gameplay involved more than the rebuttals.
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Strangely, you're not the first person I've seen who didn't find Godot funny. Normally it would puzzle me, but humor can be so subjective and Godot's sense of humor is quite errm... unique, so I get it.

i think in general, writers aside, AAI's structure kinda bored me too because there's just not the same tension during a rebuttal. The basic fun of figuring out where the logic hole is, is still there, but there's no stakes in the argument. There's no "No, I can't save my client" or anything should Edgeworth fail and it often felt like they came out of nowhere anyway, like "hey, let's say X character disagrees and comes up with a counterargument" and at times it feels like the game is just stretching itself thin with it.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
linkenski wrote:
That's the problem with stories that live or die by their plot-twists. If that's all you care about then typically replays get underwhelming becuase now you know the story from inside and out. I find the humor and character interactions to be why I go back to stuff like 3-2. Luke Atmey is just too funny, but aside from those things it's stuff like seeing the characters struggle or when you reach a dramatic point in the story becuase you love seeing these characters react to the events as they unfold as opposed to being shocked. I don't even think shock/twist impact-value is very good in itself. It can be what makes a story keep you paying attention because you never know what's going to happen, but I think it's important that a story doesn't peak at the twist.

For example, KOTOR, dunno if anyone here played that. I find it kinda hard to replay it because really the first time it was kinda about its mystery and then it has a game-changing twist right at the end that I really liked, but then when you know that and see it coming, the story is actually kinda generic.


I played KOTOR and really enjoyed it (although in all honesty I knew about the twist beforehand but I bet it would have been a really big moment if you hadn't known about it). I think I'm also a little different in that I actually actually got a little sick of the zany characters in T&T (specifically Atmey, the guy with the strap fetish, Armstrong, and especially Godot - which I know is a very controversial opinion) and if you don't find a lot of enjoyment out of those characters then something is lost on the game, specifically 3-2 and 3-3. I actually like the characters much more in JFA but the circus case itself drags my score of it down a lot so T&T comes out in third place (with AA1 in 2nd and AJ in 1st) - especially because of the fantastic 3-4 and 3-5 which is also really good. I really enjoy cases like 1-3, 3-5, all of AJ, 5-2, etc. so I know it's not that I'm not into that kind of over-the-top, convoluted cases. (I even like the borderline X-Files-ish tone of 5-2, 3-5 and 4-3 (that creepy intro with the bodies disappearing and reappearing on the stage makes up for the massive "dislocating the shoulder" inconsistency in my opinion). So in theory, AAI should be right up my alley and in general it is, I only get bored of the rebuttals.

I don't personally have this problem with DD, either, which makes it clear to my that my problem is with how they're incorporated into the investigation segments. I think for me it's just that in the context of AAI I like investigating and all the gameplay involved more than the rebuttals.


Who is the guy with a strap fetish you are talking about?
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linkenski wrote:
Strangely, you're not the first person I've seen who didn't find Godot funny. Normally it would puzzle me, but humor can be so subjective and Godot's sense of humor is quite errm... unique, so I get it.

i think in general, writers aside, AAI's structure kinda bored me too because there's just not the same tension during a rebuttal. The basic fun of figuring out where the logic hole is, is still there, but there's no stakes in the argument. There's no "No, I can't save my client" or anything should Edgeworth fail and it often felt like they came out of nowhere anyway, like "hey, let's say X character disagrees and comes up with a counterargument" and at times it feels like the game is just stretching itself thin with it.


I actually generally like Godot's humor; the part that got old for me was his overall character arc, the whole hating on Phoenix thing, the (in my opinion) weak basis for why he hated Nick, etc. He's the only prosecutor that I don't find interesting or care about. But I will say some of the humor was good. My favorite part is when he pulls the trademark AA line of "I've never lost a case!" and then when the judge asks "how many cases have you prosecuted?" and he replies "None!" with the slam of his coffee mug. If Godot had been a witness in a case rather than the main source of conflict for Wright for the majority of the game I would have liked him a whole lot more.

Regarding AAI, I agree. Worst case scenario for Edgeworth (at least the immediate scenario) is simply that he can't offer a convincing rebuttal and has to start again, rather than get a guilty verdict. Also unlike trials, there's no 3 day limit, which goes towards the problems I have with pacing. In theory Edgeworth could take months to solve a case, which could actually be cool if done the right away but it doesn't give the same feeling as when in the main series you know you're on the final cross-examination and then it's over (it's even worse if you don't know the answer because every time the evidence bar goes down I feel my spirit decrease a little haha).

What would interest me is incorporating some of the main series' non-court-related gameplay mechanics to the series. Specifically I was thinking that the Mood Matrix would almost be a better fit for the investigation: It's doing the same thing (at least if you're rebutting a witness) but it offers a more exciting and visually intense version and it would feel more like you were actually making progress if you were giving someone "therapy" to find the truth rather than just having a chat.

Slammer wrote:

Who is the guy with a strap fetish you are talking about?


Looked him up and it's Victor Kudo.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Slammer wrote:

Who is the guy with a strap fetish you are talking about?


Looked him up and it's Victor Kudo.


I actually remember him being attracted to waitresses and good-looking women in general.

D.A. McCoy wrote:
Regarding AAI, I agree. Worst case scenario for Edgeworth (at least the immediate scenario) is simply that he can't offer a convincing rebuttal and has to start again, rather than get a guilty verdict. Also unlike trials, there's no 3 day limit, which goes towards the problems I have with pacing. In theory Edgeworth could take months to solve a case, which could actually be cool if done the right away but it doesn't give the same feeling as when in the main series you know you're on the final cross-examination and then it's over (it's even worse if you don't know the answer because every time the evidence bar goes down I feel my spirit decrease a little haha).

What would interest me is incorporating some of the main series' non-court-related gameplay mechanics to the series. Specifically I was thinking that the Mood Matrix would almost be a better fit for the investigation: It's doing the same thing (at least if you're rebutting a witness) but it offers a more exciting and visually intense version and it would feel more like you were actually making progress if you were giving someone "therapy" to find the truth rather than just having a chat.


I agree with you here. Despite liking both AAI and GK2, I felt rebuttals were unnecessary most of the time. Like if I, as a prosecutor, can't arrest someone unless I prove my argument to him; and this seems even more odd, if you consider the fact that, in the main series, the defendant is immediately arrested and imprisoned.

The only times I've found rebuttals to make more sense, is when you were up against Alba, who was virtually untouchable thanks to the diplomatic immunity, and when you had to prove your innocence to Rhoda Teneiro.
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Slammer wrote:
I actually remember him being attracted to waitresses and good-looking women in general.

If I remember correctly, during one of cross examinations, you get the option to ask the witness three things, and one of the "red-herring"/"just for laughs" one is Phoenix asking for more information regarding Kudo's attraction and the straps come up. I think then the judge tells Phoenix to stop asking about the witness' strap fetish and Kudo gets all angry and yells that he doesn't have a strap fetish.

Slammer wrote:
The only times I've found rebuttals to make more sense, is when you were up against Alba, who was virtually untouchable thanks to the diplomatic immunity, and when you had to prove your innocence to Rhoda Teneiro.

Yeah those make perfect sense.

I think in general if they had a set amount you'd do at a certain time like in the main series (say, at the end of each chapter there's going to be three rebuttals barring surprises or "bosses") and they didn't pop in during investigations, they wouldn't bother me one bit.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
I actually generally like Godot's humor; the part that got old for me was his overall character arc, the whole hating on Phoenix thing, the (in my opinion) weak basis for why he hated Nick, etc. He's the only prosecutor that I don't find interesting or care about. But I will say some of the humor was good. My favorite part is when he pulls the trademark AA line of "I've never lost a case!" and then when the judge asks "how many cases have you prosecuted?" and he replies "None!" with the slam of his coffee mug. If Godot had been a witness in a case rather than the main source of conflict for Wright for the majority of the game I would have liked him a whole lot more.


Okay then we're actually 100% on the same page. I also thought as a character, if you know what I mean, Godot was rather weak, but his personality and the way he was written in general was just hilarious. I was generally kind of underwhelmed at 3-5's biggest reveals. I thought Godot's principles were too unrelateable to really get. The first time I beat the game I didn't understand his reasoning at all.
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linkenski wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
I actually generally like Godot's humor; the part that got old for me was his overall character arc, the whole hating on Phoenix thing, the (in my opinion) weak basis for why he hated Nick, etc. He's the only prosecutor that I don't find interesting or care about. But I will say some of the humor was good. My favorite part is when he pulls the trademark AA line of "I've never lost a case!" and then when the judge asks "how many cases have you prosecuted?" and he replies "None!" with the slam of his coffee mug. If Godot had been a witness in a case rather than the main source of conflict for Wright for the majority of the game I would have liked him a whole lot more.


Okay then we're actually 100% on the same page. I also thought as a character, if you know what I mean, Godot was rather weak, but his personality and the way he was written in general was just hilarious. I was generally kind of underwhelmed at 3-5's biggest reveals. I thought Godot's principles were too unrelateable to really get. The first time I beat the game I didn't understand his reasoning at all.

I agree with you guys. Godot was a weak character, but had an awesome personality. I specially like the way he conducts court proceedings. He gets randomly aggressive whenever "Trite" has the advantage over him. :basil: I like how he goes all von Karma on the Judge and just brushes him away as he oversees the trial, and only gives Udgey instructions to declare his verdict, or penalize Nick.

What I like most of Godot is how his personality contrasts with Diego Armando's. Sure, they're the same person, but not the same character. Diego is a suave and smooth operator. Godot, on the other hand, was bitter and harsh. It's like Diego and Godot were meant to be opposite cups of coffee, or in this case, two different types of Godot blends. Diego's the creamy type of blend, while Godot is the bitter and harsh cup of Joe.

Now the question is, how to get back on topic? Haha.

I guess since we're talking about characters in an AAI thread, I guess the best I can do is say that I can go back to AAI2 anytime than with AAI. AAI2 feels like an adventure to play, while AAI feels like a chore. It's like AAI is bare bones, while AAI2 is where the beef is at. :basil: The only good things about AAI were the last two cases. There's actually dramatic build-up in those cases. And I'm part of the group of people that think that the drama of chasing down the Yatagarasu should have been left as the finale of the game, instead of chasing down Alba.

That aside, I prefer AAI2 because of the characters. You can feel sympathetic with them. AAI felt like a visual novel. AAI2 felt like a journey. You could sympathize with the characters. AAI2 had charm. AAI was the start of Miles' own franchise (or was, seeing as how AAI3 may, or may not, be about him).

In summation: the Ace Attorney Investigations spin-off line has issues, but I trust that, if they were to release more titles under this brand, then they're make a job at improving them.
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I found Diego and Godot to be internally similar characters, only that the rival arc towards Nick and his prosecutor status causes him to bring up his offensive side and he has all that "Trite" and "Hell" stuff going on with Nick. As Diego he's still such a derp character.

Diego: "Men always stab others in the back."
Mia. "...But we're talking about a woman here."
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linkenski wrote:
I found Diego and Godot to be internally similar characters, only that the rival arc towards Nick and his prosecutor status causes him to bring up his offensive side and he has all that "Trite" and "Hell" stuff going on with Nick. As Diego he's still such a derp character.

Diego: "Men always stab others in the back."
Mia. "...But we're talking about a woman here."

Yeah. Guess his cryptic never shrugged off with the poison. :basil:
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I don't know about replaying AAI (what with having just finished it for the first time recently), but when I first tried it out a few months ago, I just wasn't getting into it for some reason. Then I picked it up again just a week or two ago and then I ended up liking it just fine; I plowed through the rest of the game in a few days. If there is one complaint that I have about the game though, it's that the very end of the game drag on longer than it needed to.

It basically boiled down to:
Edgeworth: I know this thing you did.
Alba: Yeah, but you can't prove that.
Edgeworth: F**K!

And repeated that for about an hour or so.
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Captain Zvarri wrote:
I don't know about replaying AAI (what with having just finished it for the first time recently), but when I first tried it out a few months ago, I just wasn't getting into it for some reason. Then I picked it up again just a week or two ago and then I ended up liking it just fine; I plowed through the rest of the game in a few days. If there is one complaint that I have about the game though, it's that the very end of the game drag on longer than it needed to.

It basically boiled down to:
Edgeworth: I know this thing you did.
Alba: Yeah, but you can't prove that.
Edgeworth: F**K!

And repeated that for about an hour or so.

Like the hiimdaisy comic would put it: "MY EXTRATERRITORIAL RIGHTS ARE TOO POWERFUL TO LET THIS GAME END!!!" :basil:
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It might be because it's one of the slower AA games.
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