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GK2'S Villain (spoiler)Topic%20Title
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So...what are your opinions on this character?

Personally,I loved him.He was a pretty funny character in case 2,and...

Spoiler:
He is one of the best villains in the series.I loved how much of a manipulative bastard he was,and how he was one of the few villains that have a reason to be the way they are.Also,the confrontation against him was 10000000000 times better than Alba's.Not to mention his awesome villain theme...

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Last edited by Cesar Zero on Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Simon Keyes (MAJOR SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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I think emphasising the thread title with (MAJOR SPOILERS) is a major spoiler in and of itself :/

The point of Keyes is to not know how important he actually is.
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linkenski wrote:
I think emphasising the thread title with (MAJOR SPOILERS) is a major spoiler in and of itself :/

The point of Keyes is to not know how important he actually is.


Edited it.
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Re: Simon Keyes (MAJOR SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Change the title to "The Mastermind (SPOILERS)" or "The Final Villain (SPOILERS)." It'll be just as bad if someone stumbles into this thread about Simon and sees tags up everywhere

Anyway, he's definitely in the top tier as far as villains go. I'd say he ranks with Von Karma, Gant, and Calisto Yew. He also probably has the best motive out of every villain thus far

Immensely evil while also remaining immensely sympathetic, he was smart, hilarious, tough, had a great design, came out of a great twist, and had one of the best themes in the entire series. What's there not to love about this guy?

If I had one complaint it would be that his clown personality is so drastically different from his "regular" one. Like, when I look at Case 2, I don't even see this guy as the same character from Case 5. In Case 5, Edgeworth could've deduced the killer was whoever controlled the balloon at the Berry Big Circus and we could've met Simon for the first time there. Nothing would've been lost besides the insanely good twist (ok, so a great deal would've been lost, but I hope you get my point)

Also, I don't like his patch name, especially considering we now have two Simons in the series. I prefer Simeon Traill
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Change the title to "The Mastermind (SPOILERS)" or "The Final Villain (SPOILERS)." It'll be just as bad if someone stumbles into this thread about Simon and sees tags up everywhere

Anyway, he's definitely in the top tier as far as villains go. I'd say he ranks with Von Karma, Gant, and Calisto Yew. He also probably has the best motive out of every villain thus far

Immensely evil while also remaining immensely sympathetic, he was smart, hilarious, tough, had a great design, came out of a great twist, and had one of the best themes in the entire series. What's there not to love about this guy?

If I had one complaint it would be that his clown personality is so drastically different from his "regular" one. Like, when I look at Case 2, I don't even see this guy as the same character from Case 5. In Case 5, Edgeworth could've deduced the killer was whoever controlled the balloon at the Berry Big Circus and we could've met Simon for the first time there. Nothing would've been lost besides the insanely good twist (ok, so a great deal would've been lost, but I hope you get my point)

Also, I don't like his patch name, especially considering we now have two Simons in the series. I prefer Simeon Traill


Ok...I guess yo are right.

Also,yeah,I agree his personality is too different for the most time,except where he acts all shy in some parts just to mock Edgeworth. Also,did anyone notice how he is,technically,the most "successful" villain in that he had revenge on everyone he wanted to have revenge against,and the only thing where he failed was,well,that he got convicted.

Another thing that kinda bothered me was how he actually killed the body double.I mean,it would have been way more interesting and original if they kept the whole "I didn't directly make them kill each other,so I am not responsible for anything" theme.That way he would have been much more like his father,who could not be prosecuted because of the statute of limitations,and thus the only way to convict him was to look at things from another perspective.
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Re: GK2'S Villain (spoiler)Topic%20Title
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I was also a little disappointed that he actually did directly kill a person, the whole thing with him just pulling the strings and get the people to kill each other was way more interesting and would have differentiated the take-down from past ones, especially with trying to figure out how to do it. That being said, he's a great villain and character. I loved the way he was introduced in case 2 - kind of charming, but not super-memorable, and that Edgeworth and co. was tricked to go to lengths to prove his innocence. Seeing that he was the final villain genuinely shocked me. His scheme and background story was great as well, and he manages to balance between creepy super-evil and sympathetic villain. I also love his wicked sense of humous, with the impersonations, the fake-breakdown and how he sometimes seemingly went back to his timid persona. And yes, his theme is great. Definitely my favourite killer of the games, and the only thing I can think of that would improve him would be 1. Making him not directly kill anyone and 2. Get rid of that incredibly stupid and cringe-worthy breakdown. I mean, getting slapped by circus animals? Come on. Even von Karma's breakdown was more worthy than that.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
I was also a little disappointed that he actually did directly kill a person, the whole thing with him just pulling the strings and get the people to kill each other was way more interesting and would have differentiated the take-down from past ones, especially with trying to figure out how to do it.

Adding to this, he's the only villain to call the "heroes" out on one specific detail:
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Had he not directly killed anyone, this would only have served to strengthen his character. That said, for reasons stated above this post, he still remains one of the most memorable villains in this series.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
2. Get rid of that incredibly stupid and cringe-worthy breakdown. I mean, getting slapped by circus animals? Come on. Even von Karma's breakdown was more worthy than that.


I know,right?I mean,the first part of his breakdown was super sad and emotional and then we get..that?It would be funny if he was just a lame starter villain,but after the writers obviously wanted to make him an unique villain,I don't know why the hell they would give him such an over-the-top breakdown.
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I might be the only one who liked the fact that Sota killed the body double. I mean, if he didn't do it, De Killer would've, and then we'd just have to prove that he's his client. That's 2-4 all over again. If you wanted to prove that he instigated murder, then you'd need a recording of him saying "kill." That's just underwhelming

Plus, think about it. Simon is the "mastermind." The one time he puts matters into his own hands is what gets him convicted in the end. Plus, he meticulously planned everything out and in the end, he relied on chance to kill the body double, and got caught for it. I don't know. I thought that was really cool and kind of played into the theme that the world of Ace Attorney is way smaller than we think it is (like in 4-2)

Plus, the twist that he crushed the double with the hot air balloon was just cool. It took me forever to figure out that contradiction, though (I figured Shigaraki was saying that double had to die for Simon to carry him in the balloon, but I didn't put two and two together because the time of deaths didn't match up >:( )

And c'mon! That's one of the best breakdowns ever! (Not as satisfying as Von Karma's, but who's is?) After Yogi, Mimi, and Acro, the last thing I want is a villain who just cries instead of giving a proper breakdown
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Dang... I did NOT see this coming. Not to mention he was the kid of the murderer from case 3. He was involved in everything and I just thought he was this strange man I had to defend in the second case. That animal arm rest though...
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Hell YEAH the animal arm rest.
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And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.

And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.

Poor Simon. This one ---> :simon: , not that other one.
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TheBlackquillz wrote:
And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.

And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.

Poor Simon. This one ---> :simon: , not that other one.


Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
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TheBlackquillz wrote:
And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.

And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.

Poor Simon. This one ---> :simon: , not that other one.


Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?
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I personally want to call him Simon Keyman. Same pun (and even one extra one), and yet looks more like real surname.

Shame I wasn't there when characters were named, really.

His name might also mean "sly monkeys" or in case of my name "sly monkey man" in the same manner
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cesar26100 wrote:
TheBlackquillz wrote:
And the squirrels. The squirrels that juggle themselves.

And yeah, I agree on the double Simon thing, especially since every time I just say "Simon" in reference to Blackquill, I get a bunch of blank stares because they think I'm talking about Keyes.

Poor Simon. This one ---> :simon: , not that other one.


Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?

De Killer says in Case 1 his client is a "monkey person." I heard they changed this line to "curious person" in the fan translation because of Curious George (the monkey). Dowolf changed the line to say that De Killer was following a trail from his client (cause his name in that is Simeon Traille. Traille also has liar backwards)
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I'm not gonna lie, he's one of my favorite Ace attorney villains, i felt actually sorry for the guy when he was acting sad, but when the big reveal came up i was like. "You son of b*tch!"
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Yeah,I agree.They should have just called him "Simeon" like in Dowolf's translation.
Btw,does anybody know the meaning behind his fan translation name? I read in Tvtropes something about it sounding like "shy monkeys",but is there any foreshadowing that he is the villain in that name?

De Killer says in Case 1 his client is a "monkey person."[/quote]

IIRC, it's actually just 'a certain' person in Japanese (saru, which is used less often than aru for 'a certain'). Saru also happens to be the word for monkey, but in a first reading of the original text nobody fluent in Japanese would think of a monkey and just read the phrase 'a certain person'. It only becomes a slightly oblique reference in hindsight (and not actual foreshadowing).
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Ash wrote:
IIRC, it's actually just 'a certain' person in Japanese (saru, which is used less often than aru for 'a certain'). Saru also happens to be the word for monkey, but in a first reading of the original text nobody fluent in Japanese would think of a monkey and just read the phrase 'a certain person'. It only becomes a slightly oblique reference in hindsight (and not actual foreshadowing).

Interesting. Is this a clever trick by the writers? Like, did De Killer actually say, "monkey person" but 99% of JP readers would see "certain person", even though that's not what he meant?

Edit: Here's the line
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Ash wrote:
IIRC, it's actually just 'a certain' person in Japanese (saru, which is used less often than aru for 'a certain'). Saru also happens to be the word for monkey, but in a first reading of the original text nobody fluent in Japanese would think of a monkey and just read the phrase 'a certain person'. It only becomes a slightly oblique reference in hindsight (and not actual foreshadowing).

But then, with Sarushiro appearing, wouldn't someone connect the dots?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Interesting. Is this a clever trick by the writers? Like, did De Killer actually say, "monkey person" but 99% of JP readers would see "certain person", even though that's not what he meant?

Edit: Here's the line
Image


Very unlikely. In the context of Koroshiya's speech style throughout the game, it's clear he really is just talking about 'a certain person' here and not playing word games. The 'monkey person' idea wouldn't make sense grammatically, either. (For those who know a bit of Japanese: note how he is using honorifics when he is talking about his client. Also keep in mind Koroshiya's speech style in general, and you'll see that さるお方 is meant just as 'a certain person'. 猿お方 would make no sense, as the words just clash because of the honorific forms).

Nearavex wrote:
But then, with Sarushiro appearing, wouldn't someone connect the dots?


No, because 'saru okata' (a certain person') is a fairly standardized phrase. Almost like saying "A certain person? The word 'son' is in 'person'! That means that Kazama's son is the murderer!!". There are relatively few mora in the Japanese language, so there are a lot of homophones and admittedly, sometimes people do play around with that, but some just make no sense. For example, the screenshot above starts with "その” (sono, that), but you could also read it as 園 (sono, garden). Or 祖の (sono, of the forefathers). Would it make sense in most situations? No. Would anyone remotely fluent in Japanese read it as those words? No. Is it technically possible and can it in some circumstances sorta seem significant? Yes.

Edit: that said, it is funny it seems like a reference to Sarushiro, but it seems like only people who aren't very advanced in the Japanese language would catch the saru link, because their vocabulary is more limited, so they'd be more prone to just read saru as monkey instead seeing the word in the complete context of Koroshiya's speech style (and slightly advanced honorific Japanese).
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I still think that was intentional, though I didn't catch onto it as any sort of pun either. Does that mean my Japanese is decent? :D
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Ash wrote:
No, because 'saru okata' (a certain person') is a fairly standardized phrase. Almost like saying "A certain person? The word 'son' is in 'person'! That means that Kazama's son is the murderer!!". There are relatively few mora in the Japanese language, so there are a lot of homophones and admittedly, sometimes people do play around with that, but some just make no sense. For example, the screenshot above starts with "その” (sono, that), but you could also read it as 園 (sono, garden). Or 祖の (sono, of the forefathers). Would it make sense in most situations? No. Would anyone remotely fluent in Japanese read it as those words? No. Is it technically possible and can it in some circumstances sorta seem significant? Yes.

So the equivalent being if De Killer said "My client is a certain person" and his localized name being Samson or something?

Informative post, though. Every time I learn a little about Japanese, I just get more and more confused
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At first I was lead to believe that de Killer would be the main villain, and then Gustavia, and then Blaise... I never wanted to believe that Keyes was the true mastermind. At least unlike the Phantom or Alba, he actually has a reason to be evil, and what an evil person he is. And he might have gotten away with it all if he wasn't convicted for the double's murder.
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I loved him. He's definitely one of my favourite villains - he's more than just evil, he actually has a "human" side - and yet he certainly is evil... as well as creepy. Also funny as heck at times, what with the imitations, the timid persona coming back, the "Uwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... just kidding" - that fake breakdown was the best. Too bad his real breakdown... wasn't even a breakdown, just pure Disney-villainesque silliness. He deserves better than that. And something that did disappoint me was the fact that he actually killed a person himself instead of just masterminding the game, pulling the strings without having killed someone directly. Anyhow.
Each time I talk about him I have to mention how disappointed I am to have accidentally spoiled myself some year ago. I know that I, if I hadn't figured it out beforehand (which I don't think I would, even if there are small hints), would have been very shocked in the best way possible with the reveal. I found his persona quite adorable, so the dissonance was wonderful. I loved it when he just let his hair down (or, well, had the animals help him with it), grinned that wicked grin and used the trained animals as a armseat. How the heck can a damn clown look so wonderfully badass (and, ehrm, good)... while resting on a pig, a chipmunk and a cat?
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Missed my chance but seeing it's necro'd I'd also like to state my support for this villain.
He was pretty wonderful overall, fun design, looks wonderfully evil when he turns and yes his theme is amazing.

Only sad part was...(and this is more due to the game itself) they had so many cameos it would have had to have been him. The final roster is literally people you know who are innocent or already considered "below" the Mastermind (like Justine and Lang or Blaise) or cameos (Penny, Will, Regina) so as the only remaining original character who isn't cleared I felt there wasn't really much room for speculation. I was thinking for most of the finale "It's him...but HOW is it him?"

Overall I still really enjoyed him, dominating the animals really worked well with his "Mastermind" theme and the Clown makeup was used to make him look fairly sinister but also indicates how he is laughing at the law. Plus he actually felt like sufficient INTELLECTUAL opposition for Edgeworth. Most people Edgeworth goes up against I feel are either clearly going to lose (Prison Warden) or only have the advantage on Edgeworth in terms of authoritative power (Alba and Blaise) and will use that to obscure the truth and make life difficult for them. Simon matched Edgeworth blow for blow for the most part and it made for a wonderful finale to see a true rival for Edgeworth.
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Really, he's like the once-in-a-lifetime, perfect villain. Interesting motive and background story, evil yet symphathetic, unexpected, powerful without being an authority, and really clever. But help, I had totally forgotten his insane clown laughter sprite. Scheisse. :udgey:
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Going for Miles wrote:
Really, he's like the once-in-a-lifetime, perfect villain.

Exactly. That makes me even more pissed when it comes to his breakdown. I was looking forward to it; oh, that one must be really cree... no. How undignifying.
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Yeah... As I said before, even von Karma's breakdown was more dignified. After all, there's a time and a place for slapstick and there and then it was just... Dumb and awkward. At least he's got an animal armrest and an awesome themesong to weigh up for it. Also, I can't help but find it morbidly funny that he killed someone by landing on them with a hot-air balloon.
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Going for Miles wrote:
I can't help but find it morbidly funny that he killed someone by landing on them with a hot-air balloon.

That's how clowns kill.
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Sorry for necro, but I loved the twist.
All through the case I was thinking "Why did he reappear? He's not a simple cameo after the second case, he can't be" then everything fell into place. Up to that point no one associated with Knightley as a friend.
And his relationship with Knightley...or Knightley's relationship with him was pretty nice, even if Simon ultimately couldn't care less about him. Knightley seemed to think of him as an actual friend, being happy to watch his show.
And ultimately, he became my third favourite character. AAI2 has too many good characters. :edgey:
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Is it just me, or does he (along with Katherine Hall) provide a theme of vigilantism vs. legalism?
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One of the best goddamn villains in the series,and one that nearly got away with not even really killing anyone. A good grey area character too if you think about it. He clearly has a tragic backstory,but the game never tells you how to feel about him. His alternate persona is great,and his breakdown is freaking amazing.
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