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Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Author:  Thane [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Self-explanatory title for a question that might have been answered months ago, but I just got curious.

See, I've heard quite a few people complaining about the fourth case, mostly because of its short length, but now that I just replayed it I can't help but feel like it offers us a lot during that short period of time. The opening is brilliant, with both Apollo and Blackquill out for blood, the defendant is more or less a space-y version of Larry (which might not appeal to some, I'll admit), the main witness is pure comedy gold and there are several good twists along the way (not to mention the ending, even if it was bound to happen at some point).

Excluding the criticism aimed towards its length, which I personally think is justified, the main problem people seem to have with it is that it is not completely resolved until the end of the fifth case. I can understand why some people would dislike that, and I'll confess it surprised me during my initial playthrough, but in retrospect, is it really all that bad? Does it really make case 4 worse? If anything I'm glad 5-4 stopped where it did, because I have major problems with the final case.

So what do you all think? Good? Bad? Great? Underrated? Or just inseperable from the fifth case?

..........Also.........did someone notice.............the ridiculous overuse of.................ellipses?
Author:  Gerkuman [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
It's a case created to set up the pieces for the next one, and the fact that it does it while still being entertaining in its own right is enough for me to recommend it. Plus, I liked the characters. Starbuck may look a bit larry-ish, but I don't think he really acts like him and I wanted him to get into space. And as for the Director, I really liked him. He was a satisfying character to deflate in court, for one.

Spoiler: Case 5
But the fact that he was a good guy who was just trying to save his own men, and was just going a bit too far to do so (perjury) makes it doubly awesome. It's the sort of subversion of its own tropes that the series does well.
Author:  Jozerick [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Strange, I haven't heard any criticism towards case 4. In fact I don't see people talk about it much.
Personally I see cases 4 & 5 as one big case. Maybe it would have been better if they had been merged.
In any case I liked case 4, though I found Starbuck annoying.
Author:  LoopZoop [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I really liked Case 4--I enjoyed the whole intensity of it, suddenly the tone got a lot more serious while still having some pretty good one-liners, if I remember rightly. Starbuck was a likeable character for me, too, which probably helped in the enjoyment. That, and how it finished... wow...

I can see why it could make sense for the two to be merged, personally, I like it the way it was. I think having the two cases made it longer, and in doing so meant that you cared about the characters a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I was pretty attached to that cast by the time it'd finished XD
Author:  Thane [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Jozerick wrote:
Personally I see cases 4 & 5 as one big case. Maybe it would have been better if they had been merged.


The problem with that, at least for me, would be that case 5 is a lot worse than case 4. I would find the quality drop even more jarring if it had not been split up, I think.

Still, I wouldn't have minded another case, that's for sure.
Author:  plsontaesung [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I liked the space and cosmos theme in early case 4 and I agree with Thane.

The problem comes after some coffee break.
Spoiler: Case 4 and 5
Case 4 was actually UNFINISHED with bit rushed and unnatural verdict. That made the incident be retreated to case 5 and resolved with UR-1.

It's the one and only episode ever in AA franchise that doesn't end with the real culprit arrested nor the gimmicks revealed. Capcom should have followed the rule "Same incident = Same case(chapter)".
Author:  Cravat of Doom [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I thought for sure when the verdict was announced in this case
Spoiler:
that someone was going to object. It ended so suddenly! But they did a fantastic job at raising the intensity to 11 when it was revealed that Athena's fingerprints were on the lighter.
Author:  Sligneris [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.
Author:  Thane [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.


Never thought you and I would agree on something.

I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).
Author:  Cravat of Doom [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Thane wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.


Never thought you and I would agree on something.

I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).


Spoiler: 5-5
The kidnapping seemed like a plot point thrown in just as the script was leaving the office. It didn't have any intensity to it and the fact that Trucy was there? Come on. JFA did kidnapping so well and I actually was concerned but in DD, it made me roll my eyes. No buildup, no point; it fell flat and I think it was the worst thing about 5-5.
Author:  BonnyMono [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Thane wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.


Never thought you and I would agree on something.

I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).

I agree, I don't quite understand why people seem to like Case 5 THAT much. I mean, it was a good case but it wasn't great. (The kidnapping plot wasn't really well done. I mean seriously, robots?)
Then again, I think the best cases were Turnabout Academy and Turnabout Reclaimed (Imo of course.)

Also, the game's seems to be using the AAI kind of ellipsis. It just leaves us with awkward silence.
Author:  Going for Miles [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Spoiler: Speaking of case 5
Technically, I didn't think case 5 was that good, especially with the recycled parts from 1-4, 1-5 and 2-4. The kidnapping did asolutely nothing for me either. It was kind of thrilling the first few seconds of chaos, when we didn't know what was going on, then it was more "Ok, that again." However I found it rather emotionally engaging . Especially the Apollo part, Athena and her black psyche locks and the fact that Simon was about to be executed the following day (which put the pressure on in its own right, which make the whole kidnapping thing even more unnecessary).


On topic though: I liked case 4. Being that interwined with both case 1 and case 5 it answered some questions while raising new ones, but because of it I tend to see it as the upstart of case 5, but regardless of not finding the culprit (there and then) it's a good case in its own right as well.
Author:  Bad Player [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I don't dislike that case 4 is short in itself, but the fact that cases 4+5 are really just one big case, and I feel like the developers split it up so they could go "This game totally has five cases in it!"

Like plenty of other people, I view the last two cases as one big case... and a pretty bad one at that. The main trick was lame, the explanation for the fingerprints was lame, the big bad acted stupid, the identity of the big bad was both obvious and out of left field, and it felt like a carbon copy of 1-5, with some 2-4 and GK2-5 mixed in.

But most of that kicks in in case 5, rather than case 4.

The one good thing about the kidnapping, though, was Trucy. What does she do when she gets kidnapped by a bunch of bloodthirsty robots? Freak out? Nope, she calmly gathers information, and efficiently relays it to Phoenix at the first opportunity she gets. That's m'girl. :hobohodo:
Author:  Rubia Ryu the Royal [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Whenever Trucy appeared outside of optional dialogue, she had some stellar moments. She was one of the reasons why I think case 5 was salvageable.

As a lead-in to the last case, 5-4 did its job well. It tied in the connection to the 1st case and its aftermath much better than what I had seen in the Investigations games. While it does have an abrupt ending and makes for a shameless plug-in for promoting 5 cases, attaching the problems of case 5 to it would simply decrease its overall quality.

I'm not saying I disliked 5-5, but it ended on a relatively disappointing note compared to what was established in the case before it.
Author:  Yellow Magician [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.

Aye, same here.

Spoiler:
Cross-examining Yuri Cosmos was my favourite part of the game, without a doubt.
Author:  Cravat of Doom [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Bad Player wrote:
it felt like a carbon copy of 1-5, with some 2-4 and GK2-5 mixed in.



I keep seeing people comparing it to 1-5...it's been awhile since I played 1-5 and I don't remember much of the specifics so I I don't really understand where this connection is coming from. Can anyone explain? :shoe:
Author:  Bad Player [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Cravat of Doom wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
it felt like a carbon copy of 1-5, with some 2-4 and GK2-5 mixed in.



I keep seeing people comparing it to 1-5...it's been awhile since I played 1-5 and I don't remember much of the specifics so I I don't really understand where this connection is coming from. Can anyone explain? :shoe:

In the following spoiler tag, I've written out the plot of one of AA's cases, but with certain details replaced with blanks. Now I wonder if you can identify which case I'm talking about...
Spoiler:
Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D] discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].
Author:  Sligneris [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
1. Lana did not insist on her guilt of SL-9 and was never suspected of it.
2. Lana did not work alone while rearranging the scene of the crime.
Spoiler: GS5-5
3. The Phantom did not rearrange the scene before Blackquill arrived


Actually, you could put every case this way, with very few exceptions.

[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].
Author:  Cravat of Doom [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler:
Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D] discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].


...Wow, that's crazy.
Author:  Rubia Ryu the Royal [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Sligneris wrote:
Actually, you could put every case this way, with very few exceptions.

[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].

Your version and BP's version contrast very much because you're clearly leaving out some important points, like the flashback incident and someone's attempts to cover-up the truth because they're mistaken. Besides, what you described is almost every other crime drama fiction in history.

5-5 isn't a carbon copy of any one case, though. It shares characteristics with 1-5, 2-4, and a little of 3-5 and 4-4. Yes, I just gathered every other final case across the GS games. A case becomes big when multiple incidents coincide to a single truth, and a final case is always a big one. It's as simple as that.
Author:  zpattack12 [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Spoiler: 5-5
Apollo comes in, to find the truth about his friend, with the belief that Athena has committed the crime. You cross-examine him, you don't even present anything, and then you make the most wild guess ever, and he just... goes with it? You give him something so outrageous, with so little proof, and then bam, he's back on your side. That moment ruined all of Apollo's development, because the way he was acting felt so phony, and I really wish the writing was a little better for that, as it would've made the entire two cases that much better.
Author:  Cravat of Doom [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
zpattack12 wrote:
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Spoiler: 5-5
Apollo comes in, to find the truth about his friend, with the belief that Athena has committed the crime. You cross-examine him, you don't even present anything, and then you make the most wild guess ever, and he just... goes with it? You give him something so outrageous, with so little proof, and then bam, he's back on your side. That moment ruined all of Apollo's development, because the way he was acting felt so phony, and I really wish the writing was a little better for that, as it would've made the entire two cases that much better.


I agree 100% that the writing was a bit weak but I think maybe an excuse for that would be that he wanted so desperately to believe in her that all he needed was an alternative theory, even a really crazy one, to convince him. He didn't want to believe what he was so afraid of and so nudging him the other way wasn't hard.
Author:  zpattack12 [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Cravat of Doom wrote:
zpattack12 wrote:
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Spoiler: 5-5
Apollo comes in, to find the truth about his friend, with the belief that Athena has committed the crime. You cross-examine him, you don't even present anything, and then you make the most wild guess ever, and he just... goes with it? You give him something so outrageous, with so little proof, and then bam, he's back on your side. That moment ruined all of Apollo's development, because the way he was acting felt so phony, and I really wish the writing was a little better for that, as it would've made the entire two cases that much better.


I agree 100% that the writing was a bit weak but I think maybe an excuse for that would be that he wanted so desperately to believe in her that all he needed was an alternative theory, even a really crazy one, to convince him. He didn't want to believe what he was so afraid of and so nudging him the other way wasn't hard.

Yeah, I understand that's how he felt, but I felt that was the wrong way to do his character. To me, they needed to go all the way with Apollo's change of sides, and doing it halfway like that just wasn't good enough. It feels like a waste of my time if Apollo really was pretty much on our side the entire way, and it doesn't show anything special about his character. Really, it just further confirms the Apollo that most people dislike from his own game, showing he can't really do anything on his own.
*flame shield up*
Again, this is all my personal opinion, maybe I'll get it when I replay it or something, but as of now, this is how I feel.
Author:  Bad Player [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Sligneris wrote:
1. Lana did not insist on her guilt of SL-9 and was never suspected of it.

I never said for which incident "Person D" claims they are guilty of--merely that they insist on their guilt.

Quote:
2. Lana did not work alone while rearranging the scene of the crime.

I did not specify that "Person D" rearranged the crime scene alone; only that they rearranged it.

Quote:
Spoiler: GS5-5
3. The Phantom did not rearrange the scene before Blackquill arrived

I did not say that "Person A" rearranged the crime scene; I merely said that the crime scene implied the guilt of "Person B."

Quote:
Actually, you could put every case this way, with very few exceptions.

[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].

Yes, that is the structure of every single case in the franchise. However, it is missing many, many details. I do not think there is any pair of cases that are as similar in plot in the way I've demonstrated as 1-5 and 5-5.

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
5-5 isn't a carbon copy of any one case, though. It shares characteristics with 1-5, 2-4, and a little of 3-5 and 4-4. Yes, I just gathered every other final case across the GS games. A case becomes big when multiple incidents coincide to a single truth, and a final case is always a big one. It's as simple as that.

I really can't agree with this. If you give me any pair of final cases (or heck, pretty much any pair of cases) besides 1-5 and 5-5, I think they're pretty different. My view on this is also tempered by my activity on AAO. There are plenty of really great cases there that are all different from each other and the canon cases. I just can't agree with "When you make a big, grand case, it's going to end up being similar to other big, grand cases, and that's just the way it is."
Author:  Thane [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I really must agree with Bad Player on this one; case 1-5 and 5-5 are almost identical in structure, and it's strange that nobody picked up on it during development.

Speaking of the flaws of 5-5 (I really should have just made a thread about this instead of 5-4...), was I the only one who found it weird that the police not only
Spoiler:
ignored questioning Ponco after the murder of Metis, but also didn't rewind the video tape of Blackquill leaving the crime scene? I mean, interrogating a robot I might understand, even though it seems like a waste not to ask the fairly sophisticated, very helpful machine, but to not check the entirety of a recording?! Are we supposed to believe even the Ace Attorney police force is that stupid? They find the real culprit on the tape IMMEDIATELY after Phoenix suggests looking at it again, and you can tell the killer not only couldn't look more suspicious if he tried, but that he was also wearing Metis' jacket.
Author:  Going for Miles [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Haha, no. You were not. Oh my dear. :eh?:
Author:  Bad Player [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Thane wrote:
I really must agree with Bad Player on this one; case 1-5 and 5-5 are almost identical in structure, and it's strange that nobody picked up on it during development.

There are two possibilities: either nobody picked up on it during development, or somebody did pick up on it during development... and they went ahead and did it anyway. Either way is quite disappointing.

Quote:
was I the only one who found it weird that the police not only
Spoiler:
ignored questioning Ponco after the murder of Metis, but also didn't rewind the video tape of Blackquill leaving the crime scene?

Yes, so much this. Police incompetency is at its "best" in GK2-2 hands down, but I think this is a not-very-far-behind second.

Spoiler:
It's kind of jarring about the quality difference between 5-5 and the rest of the game. I mean, you have 5-2 and 5-3, and then you have this case, where the massive trick in the present was just... switching the fingerprint cards in the most obvious and easy-to-check way possible, and the massive trick in the past was just... absolutely nothing, the killer was there on the tape the entire time.
Author:  Sligneris [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Spoiler: GS5-5
Questioning Ponco was not an option, as... they didn't know she was there at all. It was only discovered in court seven years later.

I have to agree about the recording thing though..
Author:  tiger_festival [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
was I the only one who found it weird that the police not only
Spoiler:
ignored questioning Ponco after the murder of Metis, but also didn't rewind the video tape of Blackquill leaving the crime scene?

Yes, so much this. Police incompetency is at its "best" in GK2-2 hands down, but I think this is a not-very-far-behind second.
They explained that:
Quote:
Cosmos: But there's a good reason we failed to find the real spy...
Cosmos: ...A massive cover up by the government.
Cosmos: Government officials were too embarrassed to admit...
Cosmos: ...that they had allowed such a thing to happen at the hands of a spy.
Phoenix: Don't tell me they made the police rush the investigation?
Cosmos: They did indeed. And then, to cover up the sabotage, they cleaned up the story.
Also, I'm starting to realize that this game is overusing it's ellipses.
Also considering the fact that Blackquill was confessing to the crime, meaning that the police focused all their efforts into saying that Blackquill was the murderer while ignoring evidence that doesn't fit with their view of the crime, which I thought was a staple of this series. Hell, this DARKAGEOFTHELAW (tm) shouldn't have happened because a prosecutor was found guilty. It should have happened because of how poorly the trial was handled.
Author:  Going for Miles [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. True, very true.
Author:  Thane [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
While you've got a point, Sumguy, the "Dark Age of the Law" (I stand by my explanation of this term as not having seen a blockbuster; everyone's casually referencing it and you have no idea what they're talking about) hadn't started yet, and it would've been nigh-impossible to MISS the injured man covering his face wearing a jacket with a cut on it. Also, keep in mind that Edgeworth, who had been personally trying to uncover the truth behind the case for some time, didn't even once think about rewinding the tape.

MILES EDGEWORTH!
Author:  Cravat of Doom [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Even having explained that, it's no excuse for that big of a mistake!

It's an explanation but that's all it really is (to me, at least). It was a massive example of 'tell not show' and it seemed so damn hand-wavey. Most of the elements in this case were not demonstrated, implied or anything subtle; it was straight out "Hey this was a thing that happened which lead to this". I can't think of any specific examples but I found myself thinking it could have been a lot less...expository.

I mean, why couldn't we have just PLAYED the mystery we're defending
Spoiler:
Athena and Blackquill
in? I know Ace Attorney's done the whole "7+ years ago this happened now it's all coming back!~" rather well in the past but honestly with the way the writing was, I think it would have gone a bit better if the case was during the present. It might have been more intense/better paced.

Thane wrote:
MILES EDGEWORTH!

Ughh, he totally would have looked :/
Author:  Miss All Sunday [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
I quite enjoyed 5-4. I found the space setting interesting, and while it is still just basically a setup to 5-5, I thought it was pretty tightly written compared to some of the other cases. That is, I didn't spend too much time confused about who did what and when like I did with...pretty much every other case in the game, haha. This might have something to do with its relatively short length, though. It also did a good job mystery-building for Case 5.

It's also notable that this is the first time in the series where your client is declared innocent without finding the actual guilty party (well...initially).
Author:  Rubia Ryu the Royal [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
5-5 isn't a carbon copy of any one case, though. It shares characteristics with 1-5, 2-4, and a little of 3-5 and 4-4. Yes, I just gathered every other final case across the GS games. A case becomes big when multiple incidents coincide to a single truth, and a final case is always a big one. It's as simple as that.

I really can't agree with this. If you give me any pair of final cases (or heck, pretty much any pair of cases) besides 1-5 and 5-5, I think they're pretty different. My view on this is also tempered by my activity on AAO. There are plenty of really great cases there that are all different from each other and the canon cases. I just can't agree with "When you make a big, grand case, it's going to end up being similar to other big, grand cases, and that's just the way it is."

No, I never said they'd be so similar to be considered "similar". I simply suggested that there's always room for parallel interpretations, between two certain cases more so than between two others.

I'll take you up on that challenge, then. Take cases 3-4 and 4-4. Aside from the obvious differences, what are their similarities? There's someone in each claiming guilt to cover up for another, despite that person who's being protected did some naughty things to change the state of the crime scene. Said victim was also engaged in a blackmailing scheme, which eventually led to someone's arrest. Neither lawyer heading the case succeeded with revealing the truth behind the incident because the accused died or fled (and died later).

If we're going to ignore everything in 5-5 to focus in on the points that it shares with 1-5, it would naturally seem like they're pretty similar.

I'm not trying to tie every case together as if there's anything suggesting a greater mechanism at work behind the scenes, but it's best to keep an open mind about making comparisons.

Thane wrote:
While you've got a point, Sumguy, the "Dark Age of the Law" (I stand by my explanation of this term as not having seen a blockbuster; everyone's casually referencing it and you have no idea what they're talking about) hadn't started yet, and it would've been nigh-impossible to MISS the injured man covering his face wearing a jacket with a cut on it. Also, keep in mind that Edgeworth, who had been personally trying to uncover the truth behind the case for some time, didn't even once think about rewinding the tape.

MILES EDGEWORTH!

Come on, man, it's not his fault it never reached his desk!
Author:  Bad Player [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I'll take you up on that challenge, then. Take cases 3-4 and 4-4. Aside from the obvious differences, what are their similarities? There's someone in each claiming guilt to cover up for another, despite that person who's being protected did some naughty things to change the state of the crime scene. Said victim was also engaged in a blackmailing scheme, which eventually led to someone's arrest. Neither lawyer heading the case succeeded with revealing the truth behind the incident because the accused died or fled (and died later).

Wait, who was claiming the guilt in 4-4? I thought both Zak and Valant were saying that they were innocent.

Quote:
If we're going to ignore everything in 5-5 to focus in on the points that it shares with 1-5, it would naturally seem like they're pretty similar.

...And if we take the points in 5-5 that it doesn't share with 1-5, then they end up being shared with some other case >_>


The fact that the story was the same as 1-5's is only part of it. The other part is that the foreshadowing made it so obvious that that's what the story was going to be. That thing I wrote earlier in the thread to show how similar 1-5 and 5-5 are? I could have written it before the trial in 5-2.

Playing through a story when I had already played through it before and already knew what was going to happen just made the game... boring.
Author:  Rubia Ryu the Royal [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I'll take you up on that challenge, then. Take cases 3-4 and 4-4. Aside from the obvious differences, what are their similarities? There's someone in each claiming guilt to cover up for another, despite that person who's being protected did some naughty things to change the state of the crime scene. Said victim was also engaged in a blackmailing scheme, which eventually led to someone's arrest. Neither lawyer heading the case succeeded with revealing the truth behind the incident because the accused died or fled (and died later).

Wait, who was claiming the guilt in 4-4? I thought both Zak and Valant were saying that they were innocent.

And yet, Zak vanished from the courtroom, hoping that it'd take some of the suspicion off of Valant, upon realizing that the trial couldn't continue. I don't remember the exact lines, but I do remember that conversation between Zak and Phoenix at the restaurant.

Quote:
Quote:
If we're going to ignore everything in 5-5 to focus in on the points that it shares with 1-5, it would naturally seem like they're pretty similar.

...And if we take the points in 5-5 that it doesn't share with 1-5, then they end up being shared with some other case >_>


The fact that the story was the same as 1-5's is only part of it. The other part is that the foreshadowing made it so obvious that that's what the story was going to be. That thing I wrote earlier in the thread to show how similar 1-5 and 5-5 are? I could have written it before the trial in 5-2.

Playing through a story when I had already played through it before and already knew what was going to happen just made the game... boring.

Hey, now. You were the one who insisted that 5-5 was a "carbon copy" of 1-5. I have already admitted that 5-5 resembles a culmination of various other cases, but it's not unexpected. This game has quite its share of parallels to previous games anyway. What made 5-5 exciting wasn't what we already knew, but what we didn't expect. This series isn't called Gyakuten Saiban for nothing.
Author:  Bad Player [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
And yet, Zak vanished from the courtroom, hoping that it'd take some of the suspicion off of Valant, upon realizing that the trial couldn't continue. I don't remember the exact lines, but I do remember that conversation between Zak and Phoenix at the restaurant.

Hmm... Okay, in vague terms, the implications in that resemble the stuff in 3-4. I'll give you that some similarities are there in the details, but the story, flow, and atmosphere of the two are quite different, whereas they're pretty similar in 1-5 and 5-5. On top of that, you're talking about the flashback section of 4-4, and the entire case of 3-4. You could argue that 3-4 is basically just a "flashback case" for 3-5, but 3-5 and the non-flashback portion of 4-4.

In short: I'll admit 3-4 and 4-4 have some similarities, but I don't think they're nearly on the same level as 1-5 and 5-5.

Quote:
Hey, now. You were the one who insisted that 5-5 was a "carbon copy" of 1-5. I have already admitted that 5-5 resembles a culmination of various other cases, but it's not unexpected. This game has quite its share of parallels to previous games anyway. What made 5-5 exciting wasn't what we already knew, but what we didn't expect. This series isn't called Gyakuten Saiban for nothing.

Everything in 5-5 was either expected or lame.

(For me, at least xP)
Author:  Rubia Ryu the Royal [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Everything?
Spoiler: 5-5
Even Spy Phantom? But I liked Spy Phantom... especially those decked-out glasses and watch.
Author:  Bad Player [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Eh, I don't care about visual designs that much. I admit it was one of the better transformations.
Spoiler: 5-5
At least until he started changing masks. Then I just went back into "Ugh, they're just copying other cases :nick: " mode.
Author:  coolkyledude [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
plsontaesung wrote:
I liked the space and cosmos theme in early case 4 and I agree with Thane.

The problem comes after some coffee break.
Spoiler: Case 4 and 5
Case 4 was actually UNFINISHED with bit rushed and unnatural verdict. That made the incident be retreated to case 5 and resolved with UR-1.

It's the one and only episode ever in AA franchise that doesn't end with the real culprit arrested nor the gimmicks revealed. Capcom should have followed the rule "Same incident = Same case(chapter)".


Spoiler:
I disagree. While they are closely intertwined, technically Case 4 was finished, with Athena being revealed to be the "true culprit" (albeit wrongly). The trial was finished with Starbuck's aquittal, but Phoenix took Athena's case which ended up being a separate trial until Apollo came into the scene.
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