Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Paul Sohn
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zpattack12 wrote:
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Yeah, I understand that's how he felt, but I felt that was the wrong way to do his character. To me, they needed to go all the way with Apollo's change of sides, and doing it halfway like that just wasn't good enough. It feels like a waste of my time if Apollo really was pretty much on our side the entire way, and it doesn't show anything special about his character. Really, it just further confirms the Apollo that most people dislike from his own game, showing he can't really do anything on his own.
Spoiler: 5-5
Yeah, I understand that's how he felt, but I felt that was the wrong way to do his character. To me, they needed to go all the way with Apollo's change of sides, and doing it halfway like that just wasn't good enough. It feels like a waste of my time if Apollo really was pretty much on our side the entire way, and it doesn't show anything special about his character. Really, it just further confirms the Apollo that most people dislike from his own game, showing he can't really do anything on his own.
Probably you missed the point. That's not all of the development that Apollo got in DD.(I'd like to say, that's just a tiny tip of an iceberg) In his own game he was just dopey dopey dope under Wright AND a rookie. The story was totally separated from Apollo, even thought himself was the protagonist.
Now let's see DD, which he is not a rookie and even has a junior, and main plot is focused even on him. Yes, he came back to Wright side way too easily(no pun intended), but even that short time he appealed that his character is different from Wright, by confronting Wright.
Thane wrote:
While you've got a point, Sumguy, the "Dark Age of the Law" (I stand by my explanation of this term as not having seen a blockbuster; everyone's casually referencing it and you have no idea what they're talking about) hadn't started yet, and it would've been nigh-impossible to MISS the injured man covering his face wearing a jacket with a cut on it. Also, keep in mind that Edgeworth, who had been personally trying to uncover the truth behind the case for some time, didn't even once think about rewinding the tape.
MILES EDGEWORTH!
MILES EDGEWORTH!
Did you really expected Edgeworth some sort of god or something? It's quite ridiculous request for him. I'm not sure if you played GK2, but I want you to know even that MILES EDGEWORTH was about to do false accusation once.
coolkyledude wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
Woah, I just amazed because there are several different opinions between Korean AA Fansite and CR Forum. For example nothing is worse than 5-4 in Korean Fansite I enter, but hey...
Probably you missed the point. That's not all of the development that Apollo got in DD.(I'd like to say, that's just a tiny tip of an iceberg) In his own game he was just dopey dopey dope under Wright AND a rookie. The story was totally separated from Apollo, even thought himself was the protagonist.
Now let's see DD, which he is not a rookie and even has a junior, and main plot is focused even on him. Yes, he came back to Wright side way too easily(no pun intended), but even that short time he appealed that his character is different from Wright, by confronting Wright.
Did you really expected Edgeworth some sort of god or something? It's quite ridiculous request for him. I'm not sure if you played GK2, but I want you to know even that MILES EDGEWORTH was about to do false accusation once.
zpattack12 wrote:
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Yeah, I understand that's how he felt, but I felt that was the wrong way to do his character. To me, they needed to go all the way with Apollo's change of sides, and doing it halfway like that just wasn't good enough. It feels like a waste of my time if Apollo really was pretty much on our side the entire way, and it doesn't show anything special about his character. Really, it just further confirms the Apollo that most people dislike from his own game, showing he can't really do anything on his own.
Spoiler: 5-5
Yeah, I understand that's how he felt, but I felt that was the wrong way to do his character. To me, they needed to go all the way with Apollo's change of sides, and doing it halfway like that just wasn't good enough. It feels like a waste of my time if Apollo really was pretty much on our side the entire way, and it doesn't show anything special about his character. Really, it just further confirms the Apollo that most people dislike from his own game, showing he can't really do anything on his own.
Probably you missed the point. That's not all of the development that Apollo got in DD.(I'd like to say, that's just a tiny tip of an iceberg) In his own game he was just dopey dopey dope under Wright AND a rookie. The story was totally separated from Apollo, even thought himself was the protagonist.
Now let's see DD, which he is not a rookie and even has a junior, and main plot is focused even on him. Yes, he came back to Wright side way too easily(no pun intended), but even that short time he appealed that his character is different from Wright, by confronting Wright.
Thane wrote:
While you've got a point, Sumguy, the "Dark Age of the Law" (I stand by my explanation of this term as not having seen a blockbuster; everyone's casually referencing it and you have no idea what they're talking about) hadn't started yet, and it would've been nigh-impossible to MISS the injured man covering his face wearing a jacket with a cut on it. Also, keep in mind that Edgeworth, who had been personally trying to uncover the truth behind the case for some time, didn't even once think about rewinding the tape.
MILES EDGEWORTH!
MILES EDGEWORTH!
Did you really expected Edgeworth some sort of god or something? It's quite ridiculous request for him. I'm not sure if you played GK2, but I want you to know even that MILES EDGEWORTH was about to do false accusation once.
coolkyledude wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what does the Korean fanbase seem to think about this game in general? Is there anything in particular that is discussed, disliked or well-liked?
While Apollo stands more on his own as a character in this game, I too have trouble understanding the hype surrounding his so-called development. It's true that we learned that he didn't live in a bloody void prior to AA4, and that is one of the best things we learn in this game, but his development is still sorely lacking. The idea of him confronting his boss is appealing, but it ultimately falls short since it's not only blatantly obvious he's wrong (there was an investigation sequence solely dedicated to those leaves, I mean come on) and backs down from his emo rampage even though Phoenix had yet to prove anything, but also because it ultimately served as clearing Athena of suspicion, and not developing Apollo.
Also, I'm afraid I don't see your point about Miles Edgeworth "not being god". He's most certainly not omniscient, but he's a very meticulous man who was hard at work at freeing Blackquill; he would NOT make such a rudimentary mistake as to not check all the evidence at his disposal, especially not if it would've taken him about five minutes to check a tape.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
Probably you missed the point. That's not all of the development that Apollo got in DD.(I'd like to say, that's just a tiny tip of an iceberg) In his own game he was just dopey dopey dope under Wright AND a rookie. The story was totally separated from Apollo, even thought himself was the protagonist.
Now let's see DD, which he is not a rookie and even has a junior, and main plot is focused even on him. Yes, he came back to Wright side way too easily(no pun intended), but even that short time he appealed that his character is different from Wright, by confronting Wright.
Now let's see DD, which he is not a rookie and even has a junior, and main plot is focused even on him. Yes, he came back to Wright side way too easily(no pun intended), but even that short time he appealed that his character is different from Wright, by confronting Wright.
I don't think it's that I missed the point, I know what they were trying to do. I keep on telling me that's what they were trying to do. It's how I try to think of Apollo, but the way it was executed in the game, it just never came to fruition. I was never expecting him to not come back to Wright, but really, the ease at which he came back further proves the point that he is nothing but someone who follows Phoenix. Especially since he switched sides on what was clearly Phoenix just making something up. To me, that's Apollo's defining moment, and the writers really dropped the ball. Yes, you could tell me it takes some guts to even leave Phoenix for a short time, but that alone is not enough. It has to be resolved in the right way to develop his character. In the end, he didn't show anything in his beliefs that would differ him from Phoenix, and that's what I've been waiting for since the end of Apollo Justice.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Thane wrote:
The idea of him confronting his boss is appealing, but it ultimately falls short since it's not only blatantly obvious he's wrong (there was an investigation sequence solely dedicated to those leaves, I mean come on) and backs down from his emo rampage even though Phoenix had yet to prove anything, but also because it ultimately served as clearing Athena of suspicion, and not developing Apollo.
To be fair, there wasn't much they could do for Apollo's role in this and the next case. Beside confronting Wright being the worst mistake anyone who isn't Miles Edgeworth could possibly make, Apollo admitted in court, no less, that he didn't want to suspect Athena. That means he was already accepting defeat before he even began to fight. All Phoenix had to do was take the UR-1 case to court, and wait for Apollo 11 to return home.
In fact, I doubt if Apollo hadn't brought it up in the last case, Clay's murder case would have been forgotten or left to some other "lesser" prosecutor to clean up. It just happened to coincide with the Phantom's identity.
Quote:
Also, I'm afraid I don't see your point about Miles Edgeworth "not being god". He's most certainly not omniscient, but he's a very meticulous man who was hard at work at freeing Blackquill; he would NOT make such a rudimentary mistake as to not check all the evidence at his disposal, especially not if it would've taken him about five minutes to check a tape.
It's a sad implication, with this and the above. The age of the legends is gradually coming to an end. These guys are getting old, and they're only in their 30's.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: DD-5
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Sligneris wrote:
As someone mentioned earlier, it's not stated he himself got his hands on the tape. He just got the report
Spoiler: DD-5
Which, of course, makes absolutely zero sense. The tape was used to prove Blackquill's guilt, and was presumably stored in the very same room we see in 1-5, in which case he could've easily retrieved it. That's IF he didn't have the tape, which I'm convinced he did. I'm sorry, but it remains the single most jarring moment in any case for me.
For the sake of argument, let's assume he'd never even heard anything about the video, and Phoenix proceeds to show it to him in court; footage of the man Edgeworth is trying to help supposedly caught in the act. What would he do then? Ask if he could see it for himself, of course!
Spoiler:
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Paul Sohn
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Thane wrote:
Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what does the Korean fanbase seem to think about this game in general? Is there anything in particular that is discussed, disliked or well-liked?
You're welcome. I know feelings of this game depends on respective players, but Korean usually agree with this;
Spoiler: DD
Thane wrote:
While Apollo stands more on his own as a character in this game, I too have trouble understanding the hype surrounding his so-called development. It's true that we learned that he didn't live in a bloody void prior to AA4, and that is one of the best things we learn in this game, but his development is still sorely lacking. The idea of him confronting his boss is appealing, but it ultimately falls short since it's not only blatantly obvious he's wrong (there was an investigation sequence solely dedicated to those leaves, I mean come on) and backs down from his emo rampage even though Phoenix had yet to prove anything, but also because it ultimately served as clearing Athena of suspicion, and not developing Apollo.
zpattack12 wrote:
I don't think it's that I missed the point, I know what they were trying to do. I keep on telling me that's what they were trying to do. It's how I try to think of Apollo, but the way it was executed in the game, it just never came to fruition. I was never expecting him to not come back to Wright, but really, the ease at which he came back further proves the point that he is nothing but someone who follows Phoenix. Especially since he switched sides on what was clearly Phoenix just making something up. To me, that's Apollo's defining moment, and the writers really dropped the ball. Yes, you could tell me it takes some guts to even leave Phoenix for a short time, but that alone is not enough. It has to be resolved in the right way to develop his character. In the end, he didn't show anything in his beliefs that would differ him from Phoenix, and that's what I've been waiting for since the end of Apollo Justice.
I'm very sorry for missing my actual point about 'development'.
And I disagree with you, zpattack12. Especially these italic words.
Phoenix is simple: he bluffs, and he wants non-guilty verdict to reveal the truth. His client and his near people are always who he must believe in. On the other hand, Apollo bluffs less and he wouldn't afraid even cooperating with prosecutor or doubting his junior if he could find his truth. Apollo came back to Phoenix means two 'truths' are actually one, not two 'beliefs' are actually one. He DID show something.
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
I'm very sorry for missing my actual point about 'development'. English, you bastard. What I intended to say was these: rival prosecutor Blackquill that doesn't give Apollo so much favor, sealed perceiving ability in court, yellow junior who needs his help to handle her mistake, earnest and firm personality compared with two co-workers, etc, each one respectively could be very nice example of we-call-development. The confrontation is just one of them, so even though the confrontation is bit disappointing, I doubt it would make the 'development' so poor.
Okay, so pretty much we have different definitions of what development means. I think you're confusing "personality" with character depth. Apollo has a personality, and that's what his interactions with Athena showed. He still had a personality in his own game, and that's the part of Apollo that made people like him. Everyone has a personality, even the most shallow of characters. When I talk about "developing his character", its about him gaining more complexity, gaining more defining characteristics, and really that all comes down to his confrontation with Phoenix. I'll compare Phoenix and Apollo to show what I mean.
Phoenix- Definite beliefs, protecting the innocent, at any cost. He is willing to manipulate, take wild guesses, and put himself on the line for his client. That has been established throughout the games, through things like the
Spoiler: 4-1
Apollo- What are his beliefs? What does he stand for? He just does what he must, but doesn't ever really seem to stand for his own set of ideals. Everything presented in DD that you talk about, is all about him overcoming challenges, but I don't think his ability to do that was ever in doubt. Sure, he grew as a lawyer, but what about as a person?
EDIT: I just noticed the last paragraph, and all I'm saying is this. You say he went so far to doubt his junior? The game wasn't written to show that this was the case. He was forced to doubt his junior, but he never truly did. That's the huge issue with the writing. If they had done the final showdown better, if they had Phoenix and Apollo going at it against each other, with Apollo flicking away anything Phoenix could bring up, until you were able to prove it without a doubt, I would've been okay. But that never happened, and Apollo showed that he never really did break away.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
Thane wrote:
Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what does the Korean fanbase seem to think about this game in general? Is there anything in particular that is discussed, disliked or well-liked?
You're welcome. I know feelings of this game depends on respective players, but Korean usually agree with this;
Spoiler: DD
Aw, that's disappointing. And here I thought the Korean sites have something in particular not mentioned on 2ch threads.
It's okay, Apollo. We can wait for you to get some development for once when you finally get a story centered on you.
Or, we can discuss over how much influence Phoenix has planted on him since he ditched Gavin. Clearly, there's still something left over to stamp out, though.
Phoenix, what will you do? And don't mention the name "Athena" anywhere.
...then again, I'm sure whatever more development Apollo will get, Athena will be involved. If she's going to be stuck with us forever now, she might as well make herself useful.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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5-4 was great because it broke up the typical structure of cases - instead of ending totally resolved, we ended on a huge question mark. That was a fresh original thought and I'm glad the game developers were experimenting.
Cravat of Doom wrote:
Spoiler: 5-5
I agree.
Spoiler:
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Paul Sohn
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zpattack12 wrote:
plsontaesung wrote:
I'm very sorry for missing my actual point about 'development'. English, you bastard. What I intended to say was these: rival prosecutor Blackquill that doesn't give Apollo so much favor, sealed perceiving ability in court, yellow junior who needs his help to handle her mistake, earnest and firm personality compared with two co-workers, etc, each one respectively could be very nice example of we-call-development. The confrontation is just one of them, so even though the confrontation is bit disappointing, I doubt it would make the 'development' so poor.
Okay, so pretty much we have different definitions of what development means. I think you're confusing "personality" with character depth. Apollo has a personality, and that's what his interactions with Athena showed. He still had a personality in his own game, and that's the part of Apollo that made people like him. Everyone has a personality, even the most shallow of characters. When I talk about "developing his character", its about him gaining more complexity, gaining more defining characteristics, and really that all comes down to his confrontation with Phoenix. I'll compare Phoenix and Apollo to show what I mean.
Phoenix- Definite beliefs, protecting the innocent, at any cost. He is willing to manipulate, take wild guesses, and put himself on the line for his client. That has been established throughout the games, through things like the
Spoiler: 4-1
Apollo- What are his beliefs? What does he stand for? He just does what he must, but doesn't ever really seem to stand for his own set of ideals. Everything presented in DD that you talk about, is all about him overcoming challenges, but I don't think his ability to do that was ever in doubt. Sure, he grew as a lawyer, but what about as a person?
EDIT: I just noticed the last paragraph, and all I'm saying is this. You say he went so far to doubt his junior? The game wasn't written to show that this was the case. He was forced to doubt his junior, but he never truly did. That's the huge issue with the writing. If they had done the final showdown better, if they had Phoenix and Apollo going at it against each other, with Apollo flicking away anything Phoenix could bring up, until you were able to prove it without a doubt, I would've been okay. But that never happened, and Apollo showed that he never really did break away.
For me, you seems you just want to deny the whole Apollo Justice character. He actually doubted Athena, he even accused her. All he hesitated was just to make 100% sure there's no way other than Athena killed Clay. Tell me, who on earth forced him to doubt Athena? (You might think it's Phantom, but Phantom didn't force anything. If so, why did Phoenix still defend Athena?) It's ultimately up to him to decide either believe in her or evidence/bracelet.
I still admit the confrontation is so plain and Capcom slipped with the huge issue, but I'm claiming even that weak confrontation itself shows Apollo is different with Phoenix and he grew up as a person as much as an attorney.
P. S. I'm sure that his personality doesn't appealed enough in his own game. He was inexperienced than anybody at that time; Kristoph, Klavier, Phoenix, even Trucy and Udgey were all making him tiny little dope. AA team had to advance his personality as much as deepen his character depth(that you're saying) and they did both successfully.
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Aw, that's disappointing. And here I thought the Korean sites have something in particular not mentioned on 2ch threads. Oh wait they're 2ch threads
It's okay, Apollo. We can wait for you to get some development for once when you finally get a story centered on you.
Or, we can discuss over how much influence Phoenix has planted on him since he ditched Gavin. Clearly, there's still something left over to stamp out, though.
Phoenix, what will you do? And don't mention the name "Athena" anywhere.
...then again, I'm sure whatever more development Apollo will get, Athena will be involved. If she's going to be stuck with us forever now, she might as well make herself useful.
It's okay, Apollo. We can wait for you to get some development for once when you finally get a story centered on you.
Or, we can discuss over how much influence Phoenix has planted on him since he ditched Gavin. Clearly, there's still something left over to stamp out, though.
Phoenix, what will you do? And don't mention the name "Athena" anywhere.
...then again, I'm sure whatever more development Apollo will get, Athena will be involved. If she's going to be stuck with us forever now, she might as well make herself useful.
Various blogs, AA fan forums(It's more alike boards), etc.
Phoenix could just stick in Mia position - alive and bluff too much however. That's we saw him in DD, and since DD presented the direction of AA franchise I'm sure he would be another Mia.
Original AA(GS1) focused more about Edgeworth(and Mia) more than the protagonist Phoenix, but we couldn't say that Phoenix lacks his development.. Because he too is associated to another plot: the class trial. By now, Apollo is like original AA Phoenix. Still lot to do to make him complete, like T&T for Phoenix, but he got enough characteristic to progress further.
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
Phoenix could just stick in Mia position - alive and bluff too much however. That's we saw him in DD, and since DD presented the direction of AA franchise I'm sure he would be another Mia.
He's already like Mia. I wanna see him like Grossberg. I'll probably regret saying that but I still really wanna see it.
Seeing him take up this case after Apollo was injured wasn't so inspiring as I wanted it to be. In fact, throughout this game, I didn't get to see Phoenix at the defense bench as legal aid. He'd make a great converser during consultation segments by being incredibly enigmatic with hints.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
plsontaesung wrote:
Phoenix could just stick in Mia position - alive and bluff too much however. That's we saw him in DD, and since DD presented the direction of AA franchise I'm sure he would be another Mia.
He's already like Mia. I wanna see him like Grossberg. I'll probably regret saying that but I still really wanna see it.
Seeing him take up this case after Apollo was injured wasn't so inspiring as I wanted it to be. In fact, throughout this game, I didn't get to see Phoenix at the defense bench as legal aid. He'd make a great converser during consultation segments by being incredibly enigmatic with hints.
And then we can have an alternate costume to make him look like Hobo Nick. It'll be Apollo Justice all over again!
Well? Are we going or what?
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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I think perhaps Apollo's lack of identity/characterization kind of is his characterization. What I mean by that is all of the characters have a place where they fit in and are unique, but Apollo never seemed to really figure out where his place was. It's really jarring right from the beginning in 4-1 where a trial of Apollo vs. Payne quickly erodes into Phoenix vs. Kristoph, with the former two left to essentially sit there and watch. Apollo acknowledges that he is just beginning and isn't able to make sense of what really went on yet, and as it's only the first case, that makes sense.
However, he says something similar in 4-4 during the whole 'everybody-get-philosophical' spiels after the drama of the case is over. The Judge, Klavier, Phoenix, and Kristoph (his views are presented as being wrong and outdated yet nevertheless still present) have their own clear opinions and we can see their beliefs and personalities from them. But Apollo doesn't say anything. He doesn't know what to say and he explains it is because he hasn't seen enough yet as a lawyer. So we're left with the expectation that he will indeed find himself. I don't think the lack of traits or convictions (in the moral sense, not in the legal sense) is poor writing, I think it is a great beginning for him.
But fast-forward to Dual Destinies where although more progression with Apollo would make the most sense, we're given a new character. So now we're at a point where we've got two undeveloped characters. By the end of the game, Athena's got her "development" or at least what the developers thought to be development; whatever your opinion, they did at least attempt and that's another story. But Apollo.......really got pushed out of the way. He's given the tried-and-true "childhood friend", the kind that we've seen over and over AND OVER in the GS series. But it's not real development, it's backstory that added to one and a half cases (I say a half because it's not really the focus of 5-5) but didn't do anything to change him/improve him as a character. So he had a friend...don't we all? He never improved beyond much of that.
So we became 'stuck' (kind of a negative term but it's the closest to what I mean) with a half-developed character in development limbo that didn't get a chance to shine and be the focus. The whole brooding thing started off being handled well-- it was clear how much Apollo was upset and I was hoping this would lead to Apollo-centric themes, but he was pushed to the side LITERALLY in the middle of what could have been his story (5-4 was sort of about Apollo then NOPE LET'S ADD A TWIST) and unfortunately he lost the spotlight. When he reappeared in court to
Spoiler:
It just added more to the idea that he didn't know what he stood for-- an idea that worked for him in AJ but now worked against him because it dragged on way too long and was never resolved.
I liked the way Apollo was written in terms of his dialogue in DD; I thought he was hilariously relatable in 5-2 with his internal monologue. But witty lines don't make a character, and I think if AJ was respected by these writers a little more, they would have tried to bring Apollo to a higher level. He is a main character, after all... or at least he used to be.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
But Apollo.......really got pushed out of the way. He's given the tried-and-true "childhood friend", the kind that we've seen over and over AND OVER in the GS series. But it's not real development, it's backstory that added to one and a half cases (I say a half because it's not really the focus of 5-5) but didn't do anything to change him/improve him as a character. So he had a friend...don't we all? He never improved beyond much of that.
Cravat of Doom wrote:
So we became 'stuck' (kind of a negative term but it's the closest to what I mean) with a half-developed character in development limbo that didn't get a chance to shine and be the focus. The whole brooding thing started off being handled well-- it was clear how much Apollo was upset and I was hoping this would lead to Apollo-centric themes, but he was pushed to the side LITERALLY in the middle of what could have been his story (5-4 was sort of about Apollo then NOPE LET'S ADD A TWIST) and unfortunately he lost the spotlight. When he reappeared in court to
It just added more to the idea that he didn't know what he stood for-- an idea that worked for him in AJ but now worked against him because it dragged on way too long and was never resolved.
Spoiler:
It just added more to the idea that he didn't know what he stood for-- an idea that worked for him in AJ but now worked against him because it dragged on way too long and was never resolved.
Come on, nobody says just giving him another backstory enhanced him. It sequentially showed he could think more complexly than his own game, while he was rookie,
Spoiler: AJ
Saying about his rookie days, I agree he could be sort of weak to begin, but no more. Especially when he got a junior. His identity couldn't be stuck with the lack of his identity. It'll mess up entire game direction.
Apollo 'got pushed out of the way', seriously? Even 5-5 focus more on past cases and Athena, there is still unsolved present case, Clay, and Apollo, and both appears in turn, and they are both treated very important. However the least associated character is Phoenix, just want to clear some vague thing called the dark age of the law even the case that he isn't responsible of. It's like the final trial on 4-4, Apollo had to be the one who solved the case but oppositely Phoenix took all of the importance, by no reason but the fact that Phoenix was drifted into the incident. SAME LOGIC.
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
Come on, nobody says just giving him another backstory enhanced him. It sequentially showed he could think more complexly than his own game, while he was rookie,
Saying about his rookie days, I agree he could be sort of weak to begin, but no more. Especially when he got a junior. His identity couldn't be stuck with the lack of his identity. It'll mess up entire game direction.
Spoiler: AJ
Saying about his rookie days, I agree he could be sort of weak to begin, but no more. Especially when he got a junior. His identity couldn't be stuck with the lack of his identity. It'll mess up entire game direction.
I'm not saying that people are saying that giving him backstory enhanced him, but that the developers attempted to flesh him out, and it didn't feel very genuine.
Quote:
Apollo 'got pushed out of the way', seriously? Even 5-5 focus more on past cases and Athena, there is still unsolved present case, Clay, and Apollo, and both appears in turn, and they are both treated very important.
But Apollo didn't really need to be there, did he? If he was totally absent in 5-5 it wouldn't really have changed the case in any major way. Sure, Clay was the murder victim, but it doesn't really have much to do with Apollo directly besides being his friend.
Quote:
However the least associated character is Phoenix, just want to clear some vague thing called the dark age of the law even the case that he isn't responsible of. It's like the final trial on 4-4, Apollo had to be the one who solved the case but oppositely Phoenix took all of the importance, by no reason but the fact that Phoenix was drifted into the incident. SAME LOGIC.
But like I said, that Apollo was just a bystander worked better in AJ because it showed us he was a greenhorn and it was an exploration of his coming to terms with what the system really meant. Someone else's story was told through his game, but they were able to handle it well because the game understood that it was only the introduction of a character. In DD we do not have that excuse.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Paul Sohn
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
I'm not saying that people are saying that giving him backstory enhanced him, but that the developers attempted to flesh him out, and it didn't feel very genuine.
And you are one of them who feel it very genuine or not. I'm sure most of them won't matter about developers.
Quote:
But Apollo didn't really need to be there, did he? If he was totally absent in 5-5 it wouldn't really have changed the case in any major way. Sure, Clay was the murder victim, but it doesn't really have much to do with Apollo directly besides being his friend.
Um, may I ask you why do you calculate certain character's importance by just considering they were absent in story? That's ridiculous to me as saying 'Maya had no role in 1-4 and 2-4, so pulling her out of those cases is okay'.
Quote:
Quote:
However the least associated character is Phoenix, just want to clear some vague thing called the dark age of the law even the case that he isn't responsible of. It's like the final trial on 4-4, Apollo had to be the one who solved the case but oppositely Phoenix took all of the importance, by no reason but the fact that Phoenix was drifted into the incident. SAME LOGIC.
But like I said, that Apollo was just a bystander worked better in AJ because it showed us he was a greenhorn and it was an exploration of his coming to terms with what the system really meant. Someone else's story was told through his game, but they were able to handle it well because the game understood that it was only the introduction of a character. In DD we do not have that excuse.
What excuse? If you understood as I'm justifying his still low characteristic, then you're wrong. I was constantly claiming Apollo got a character buff indeed, and in this paragraph I meant to compare Phoenix(in DD) with Apollo(in AJ) to say the least important protagonist of DD would be Phoenix rather than Apollo.
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
I was constantly claiming Apollo got a character buff indeed,
I'm sorry for interrupting you guys, but... this made me laugh more than it should have. I get what you're trying to say, but next time, be careful with what words you use.
Ace Attorney would make a terrible RPG, but I'd want to play it anyway. Imagine what an effect of being a badass in court could do to help you win! (Sadly, it's still nothing compared to the power of a turnabout, but it's still a very successful tactic.)
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Last edited by Rubia Ryu the Royal on Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Paul Sohn
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
plsontaesung wrote:
I was constantly claiming Apollo got a character buff indeed,
I'm sorry for interrupting you guys, but... this made me laugh more than it should have. I get what you're trying to say, but next time, be careful with what words you use.
Ace Attorney would make a terrible RPG, but I'd want to play it anyway. Imagine what an affect of being a badass in court could do to help you win! (Sadly, it's still nothing compared to the power of a turnabout, but it's still a very successful tactic.)
Could you just lol and ignore it? I'm not good at these English nuance things because I'm not native English speaker... *cough*
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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But, guys, there's already a thread for this topic. Please take it there.
And to leave this post on something more on-topic, no one can deny the greatness that is Captain Segway.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
Paul Sohn
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I have no problems with how you post, and your English is fine as long as we can understand your points.
But, guys, there's already a thread for this topic. Please take it there.
And to leave this post on something more on-topic, no one can deny the greatness that is Captain Segway.
But, guys, there's already a thread for this topic. Please take it there.
And to leave this post on something more on-topic, no one can deny the greatness that is Captain Segway.
I don't noticed this thread until you brought it on. I would've mess the topic, so thanks. But I don't have any desire to discuss further by now...
Captain Segway RULES!!
I'm Korean, I beg your apology for my horrible english grammer.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Just someone who actually really likes Turnabout for Tomorrow passing by...
I enjoy it as well. It has flaws, but I do enjoy it quite a bit.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Turnabout Big Top and Turnabout Reclaimed
Turnabout Beginnings and Turnabout Succession (someone else pointed this out)
The Stolen Turnabout and The Monstrous Turnabout
Turnabout Serenade and Turnabout Reminiscence
This doesn't seem like anything new to me. There are enough differences with all the cases. If you're vague enough, anything can sound the same
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
5-5 is "similar" to 1-5 but aren't other cases similar?
Turnabout Big Top and Turnabout Reclaimed
Turnabout Beginnings and Turnabout Succession (someone else pointed this out)
The Stolen Turnabout and The Monstrous Turnabout
Turnabout Serenade and Turnabout Reminiscence
Turnabout Big Top and Turnabout Reclaimed
Turnabout Beginnings and Turnabout Succession (someone else pointed this out)
The Stolen Turnabout and The Monstrous Turnabout
Turnabout Serenade and Turnabout Reminiscence
Firing off random names doesn't do anything. Details, bro.
Also, be precise: you mean the flashback trial of Turnabout Succession, not Turnabout Succession its entirety. ...Which causes Turnabout Beginnings and Turnabout Succession to be quite different.
Quote:
This doesn't seem like anything new to me. There are enough differences with all the cases. If you're vague enough, anything can sound the same
The problem is when the cases are similar, even after adding details... which I've done. The one being vague here is you :P
Also don't forget that the similarities between 1-5 and 5-5 are not only in plot elements, but also in the story structure.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: Turnabout Big Top and Turnabout Reclaimed
Spoiler: Turnabout Beginnings and Turnabout Succession (flashback)
Spoiler: The Stolen Turnabout and The Monstrous Turnabout
Spoiler: Turnabout Serenade and Turnabout Reminiscence
Spoiler: Rise from the Ashes and Turnabout for Tomorrow
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: Turnabout Big Top and Turnabout Reclaimed
I'd say this is one of the strongest comparisons. However, the fact that the animal is still around in Turnabout Reclaimed vastly changes the structure of the case when actually doing it.
Spoiler: Turnabout Beginnings and Turnabout Succession (flashback)
A fair amount of this is too general--for instance, people coming back (it happens in every game except JFA!), or the defendant being accused of murder. Still, I'll admit the parallels are clearer here than... the last time we went over this. (Forgot who it was.) However, the flashback trial in Turnabout Succession isn't a full case, and the overall game structure (3-4 is totally separate from 3-5, whereas the flashback trial is within 4-4) leads to different structures for the cases, I feel.
Spoiler: The Stolen Turnabout and The Monstrous Turnabout
Character design is a separate issue. I don't think alibis were involved in 5-2, or locked rooms in 3-2. However, while all these things are true, the theft in 3-2 creates a massive difference between 5-2 in structure.
(You also forgot to mention that both defendants claim to be guilty, and their respective reasons involve a female that's important to them.)
Spoiler: Turnabout Serenade and Turnabout Reminiscence
Again, I think things you didn't mention differentiate the case. Mainly the second corpse in I-4 and the fact that 4-3 was a themed murder. While the crimes have several similarities, the stories are different; one is just pure greed, the other is cover-up done for a larger crime organization.
Spoiler: Rise from the Ashes and Turnabout for Tomorrow
-He took Athena out of the scene. Isn't that enough? xD He also disassembled the robot, as you said, and didn't he do something with the sword? Well, he covered up Athena's involvement in the case, which is the bottom line/important part.
-Even though Ema wasn't accused of murdering Goodman, both girls were still accused of some sort of murder. The presence of a scapegoat is indeed a difference, but it's really a minor one that is more to conform the details of the crimes for the respective cases, rather than differentiate the stories. The only difference is creates is that Lana is suspected of the present incident whereas Blackquill is suspected of the past incident. It's really a minor point, though, as both of the people who messed with the crime scene to protect the young girl are being accused of murder.
-The (very basic) story structure of both cases is that there was some incident in the past, an adult mistakenly believes a child did it, a second incident crops up years later that brings all this basic, the child is suspected of murder, the adult claims that they're guilty of murder, and then Nick proves both the child and adult innocent. The fact that the child is proven innocent at the same time as the killer is proven is guilty in 1-5 whereas in 5-5 the killer isn't proven guilty until after the child is proven innocent is a minor point.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Alibis were involved in 5-2 (the moment you could accuse Florent came because you found out Filch was lying so he could no longer collaborate Florent's alibi. The reason the characters knew the exact time of the crime was because Florent let out a scream (in the Nine Tails mask). As for 3-2, I could be wrong but I believe you had to enter the room with a keycard (Atmey entered with the victim and Ron entered later). Anyway, the victim was found in a safe, which only Ron could open, which is sort of like a locked room, I guess? I don't know
Isn't 5-5 a themed murder, too? You can't get more themed than a crime...IN SPAAAAAAAAACE (or involving space stuff but whatever). And I don't think 4-3 was pure greed (though it's been a while since I played the case). Daryan was afraid the Interpol agent would catch him for smuggling so he killed him (I don't think he cared about the money from the Chief Justice. The crime failed because he had to burn the cocoon). So, Daryan's motive was self-preservation, which is the same as Yew's motive. She was afraid of being exposed as the Yatagarasu (I think. Yew's motive always confused me. This is what she says in I-4 before we found out that Faraday was also the Yatagarasu).
-Right. I forgot about the reason Blackquill took her out of the scene. Anyway, the Phantom still didn't rearrange the scene, unlike Gant
-Well, the same way I had to make some of my points general while comparing the cases, I feel like the same thing is happening here. 5-5 is a themed case. The motives for the crimes in the past are different and the motives for the crimes in the present are kind of different as well. For 1-5, you're neglecting to mention the crime in the future was committed in two places at once and the fact that Lana confessed to the crime because of Gant's threat. Simon isn't blackmailed in 5-5. Also, the reasons for protecting the little girls are different, as Simon did it out of samurai honor towards Metis and Lana and Ema are sisters. There's also differences because 5-5 has bombings and 1-5 has a serial killer. There really are enough differences to justify them being two different cases. I would've preferred if Athena was innocent of her mother's murder but guilty of killing Clay, but whatever (that was my original theory. I thought Clay was the Phantom :/ )
-Basically addressed that up there ^
So, 5-4...Yuri Cosmos was pretty funny
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Hm, I suppose alibis were involved, but it's still kind of different. The whole point of Atmey's convoluted plan was to create an alibi for himself. The point of Florent's plan was to create a locked room and pin it all on Tenma; the alibi really seems like a minor, "hey say I was with you" afterthought. And there's still the whole theft and double-crime/trial thing in 3-2 to differentiate them.
No, 5-5 is not a themed murder. I guess you could argue that 5-5 (and 5-4) had a space theme as a case, but the murders weren't themed. The only other themed murder in the franchise is 5-3. (For the record, a themed murder is a murder where the murderer sets things up to make it seem like the murder follows some outside pattern. The theme in 4-3 is the lyrics to The Guitar's Serenade, and the theme in 5-3 is Juniper's crime manuscript.) Hm, I suppose the motive behind the smuggling was money (or was it favor with the chief justice for Daryan?), whereas the motive for the murder was self-preservation. Still, I thought Yew's motive in I-4 was because Byrne knew too much for the organization's sake, and thus had to be eliminated. (IIRC, the yatagarasu's key was the straw that broke the camel's back.)
Didn't Phantom do something with the space rock?
Yeah, the reasons behind the events are different. So are the details of the crime. (Such as Goodman being 'killed' in two different locations.) The events themselves are still extremely similar. There isn't much I can say except that all these differences you've pointed out (such as the serial killer and bombs) are just differences in the crimes, which doesn't affect the massive similarities between the stories.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
No, it's not the same in 5-5. In 4-4, the Gramarye is a totally separate trial, done in a flashback. In 5-5, while they do deal with two incidents, they're done during the same trial--like 1-5.
Hm, I suppose alibis were involved, but it's still kind of different. The whole point of Atmey's convoluted plan was to create an alibi for himself. The point of Florent's plan was to create a locked room and pin it all on Tenma; the alibi really seems like a minor, "hey say I was with you" afterthought. And there's still the whole theft and double-crime/trial thing in 3-2 to differentiate them.
No, 5-5 is not a themed murder. I guess you could argue that 5-5 (and 5-4) had a space theme as a case, but the murders weren't themed. The only other themed murder in the franchise is 5-3. (For the record, a themed murder is a murder where the murderer sets things up to make it seem like the murder follows some outside pattern. The theme in 4-3 is the lyrics to The Guitar's Serenade, and the theme in 5-3 is Juniper's crime manuscript.) Hm, I suppose the motive behind the smuggling was money (or was it favor with the chief justice for Daryan?), whereas the motive for the murder was self-preservation. Still, I thought Yew's motive in I-4 was because Byrne knew too much for the organization's sake, and thus had to be eliminated. (IIRC, the yatagarasu's key was the straw that broke the camel's back.)
Didn't Phantom do something with the space rock?
Yeah, the reasons behind the events are different. So are the details of the crime. (Such as Goodman being 'killed' in two different locations.) The events themselves are still extremely similar. There isn't much I can say except that all these differences you've pointed out (such as the serial killer and bombs) are just differences in the crimes, which doesn't affect the massive similarities between the stories.
Hm, I suppose alibis were involved, but it's still kind of different. The whole point of Atmey's convoluted plan was to create an alibi for himself. The point of Florent's plan was to create a locked room and pin it all on Tenma; the alibi really seems like a minor, "hey say I was with you" afterthought. And there's still the whole theft and double-crime/trial thing in 3-2 to differentiate them.
No, 5-5 is not a themed murder. I guess you could argue that 5-5 (and 5-4) had a space theme as a case, but the murders weren't themed. The only other themed murder in the franchise is 5-3. (For the record, a themed murder is a murder where the murderer sets things up to make it seem like the murder follows some outside pattern. The theme in 4-3 is the lyrics to The Guitar's Serenade, and the theme in 5-3 is Juniper's crime manuscript.) Hm, I suppose the motive behind the smuggling was money (or was it favor with the chief justice for Daryan?), whereas the motive for the murder was self-preservation. Still, I thought Yew's motive in I-4 was because Byrne knew too much for the organization's sake, and thus had to be eliminated. (IIRC, the yatagarasu's key was the straw that broke the camel's back.)
Didn't Phantom do something with the space rock?
Yeah, the reasons behind the events are different. So are the details of the crime. (Such as Goodman being 'killed' in two different locations.) The events themselves are still extremely similar. There isn't much I can say except that all these differences you've pointed out (such as the serial killer and bombs) are just differences in the crimes, which doesn't affect the massive similarities between the stories.
Also like 1-4 (for the record, I think 5-5 is more similar to 1-4 than 1-5). For 3-4 and 4-4, they still are two trials that have similarities. Just because 4-4 is a longer case doesn't excuse it for ripping off elements. The point I'm trying to get across is that while there are similarities with 5-5 and 1-5, it's as much a "carbon copy" as 5-DLC/2-3 and 3-4/4-4
I've brought this up before but Atmey's plan doesn't even make sense (neither does L'Belle's). Atmey killed Bullard in fear of being exposed as Mask DeMasque's accomplice, but when killing him, he tries to indict himself as Mask DeMasque. So, there was no point of killing Kane because if he didn't kill Kane, he'd go to jail for larceny anyway. With L'Belle, he tried to disparage Nine Tails reputation by making him a murderer to make the merger go faster. However, he was trying to keep the fact that he Temna was Nine Tails a secret. Anywaaay, sorry for going off on a tangent there. The only thing I'd say that really distinguishes the case and really differentiates them is the two trials in 3-2
Oh. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know what a themed murder was so I just assumed it was a case built around a theme. Anyway, I'm not really sure on Yew's motive. I think in I-4 we're supposed to think it was because she was going to be exposed as the Yatagarasu but in I-5 it's revealed that Alba ordered it because the Yatagarasu became too big of a problem and was afraid that it was going to bring the smuggling ring down. So essentially, it still is two smugglers killing someone who may expose them for they are
The Phantom did steal the moon rock, but it was to save his own ass. It wasn't to make it look like Athena was the murderer (he probably should've just left it there. The police wouldn't even test it, just like the plates in the art room in 5-3. They'd just assume it was the victim's)
The bombing does affect a similarity between the story. The Phantom's primary objective was to bomb the HAT-2 and he bombed the courtroom to destroy the moon rock. The presence of the Phantom should be enough to differentiate the case, really. The only plot twist I was able to guess as a result of the similarities between the cases is that Simon and Athena were both innocent of killing her mother. It's not like I was able to guess all the motions and twists of the case (which goes for all the other similar cases I mentioned, besides Turnabout Reclaimed). The cases do have enough differences to justify them being different
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Neither 3-2 nor 5-2 making much sense doesn't really contribute much to them being similar imo xD But the two trials/crimes in 3-2 is definitely enough, I think. It breaks 3-2 up into two completely separate cases... which your argument in the first one becoming the argument against you in the second. 5-2 is just one continuous case, like pretty much every other AA case.
Eh, I-4 is still an organization and 4-3 an individual. And there's still the fact that 4-3 is a themed murder, whereas I-4 doesn't even have hints of a theme.
Well okay then. The reason behind it is irrelevant, the killer in bot 1-5 and 5-5 messed with the crime scene~ (And in both cases, the crime scene was altered to protect the girl.)
The reason Phantom doesn't differentiate the case is because he just fulfills the role of the killer, just like any other killer :P If the killer was someone else, and then Phantom was there in the background doing spy stuff and messing up the case, then I could buy it. But he doesn't. He's the killer, and fulfills the same role in the story as Gant in 1-5. Their motives are different, yes, but their roles are the same.
You keep fixating on the motives in 1-5 and 5-5, and I think you're overstating their importance. Yes, they're different. They still result in the same false-accusation/protection story between an adult and young girl.
(I guessed all the twists in 5-5 due to its similarities with 1-5... while in the middle of 5-2.)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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For the record, I wasn't saying 3-2 and 5-2 were similar because they didn't make sense. I just went off on a tangent because those parts of the case never made sense to me but I never got answers for them when I asked about it in other threads
. But yeah, admittedly, out of all the examples I listed, this one is the biggest stretch5-5 is an organization and 1-5 is an individual, too. Granted, we don't delve into what the organization is, but we can assume it's Russians trying to keep the US behind in the space race. If 1-5 or 5-5 had a theme, would you suddenly say that they are indeed different?
I just wanted to make the distinction because on page 1, you said that the killers altered the crime scene to make it look like the little girl is the killer
The reason I'm fixating on the motive is because it's different. The motive is different. The killers are different (an international spy and a cop). The means to carry out the murder couldn't be further apart. The only thing that's the same is the general story. It's still two essentially different mysteries
Wait, from 5-2 you were able to guess that Fulbright was actually an emotionless international spy wearing a mask who had killed Athena's mother and then sent a moon rock into space and then killed Clay to retrieve the moon rock and then jumped out of a moving building onto the side of a stationary building and then blew up a courtroom to destroy the moon rock? Color me impressed
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Both Edgeworth and Athena mistakenly believe they killed their parents. In reality, they wounded the real culprit. The evidence that came as a result of this wound seals the culprit's fate (in the future). The events set in motion in the current case are a result of the culprit covering their tracks. Both incidents inspire the main characters to become lawyers (Edgeworth a prosecutor). The wrong person is convicted of the crime. Edgeworth and Athena also lose parts of their memory due to the trauma. I'm not even being that vague or general
Let's see... Change "killed their parents" to "killed". I guess Ema didn't actually wound anyone. In a sense, 1-5 is the result of Gant trying to cover his tracks. (Goodman wanted to reopen the case.) I'm not sure if it's really the reason Athena became a lawyer; whenever asked, she always says it's cause of Nick. You could say "it inspired the person to their current profession (that they're striving for)". (Because Ema isn't a Mary Sue that gets everything done in a third of the time as everyone else. (Don't respond to that, this will get even longer xD)) Yanni Yogi actually wasn't convicted. Ema had trauma/memory loss, too.
Admittedly a few of these things are unique to 1-4, but a lot are either in 1-5, or can be in there with a small tweak. Add in the false confession/protection element, and I still say 1-5 is more similar.
lol3-2/5-2.
I'd say 5-5 was still sort of like an 'individual'. He attacked Metis because she had info on him, and did the whole thing with Clay in the present because of the space rock, which was bad for him. It didn't implicate his employers in any way. (Whereas Calisto didn't really have any personal motive in needing to kill Byrne; he was merely a hindrance to the smuggling ring.) As for whether 1-5 or 5-5 had a theme... Maybe? It's hard to say, because it's hard for me to imagine any theme that could be implemented without radically reworking the cases xD The theme in 4-3 added an extra layer to the story/crime, something I-4 didn't have.
No, on the previous page, I do not say that the killer altered the crime scene. I say that Blackquill/Lana did :P
Yup, the mysteries are different. The stories are the same.
(Also, the mysteries in 5-5 were laaaaaaaaaaame. It would be much easier to forgive the case if it actually had a good mystery to make up for its recycled plot.)
Okay, not that far xP Basically, that thing on page 1 with Person A/B/C/D? I could've written that while I was still playing 5-2. (Although all the other stuff you wrote I did see coming from quite a ways away, or don't consider it a 'twist' :P)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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The organization hired the Phantom because they wanted him to destroy the HAT-1 and HAT-2. Him killing Metis and killing Clay to retrieve the moon rock were just bonuses to him. Sure. I'll give you that the ring wanted Byrne dead. But you could argue that Calisto killing Mack Rell wouldn't really be bad for the ring and was more for her to cover her ass. Mack Rell wasn't like Byrne. He didn't have info to implicate the ring. I don't really think the theme thing added much to 4-3.
My mistake. I must've read it wrong the first time (and second, because I checked myself before writing the reply)
This might be the difference between you and I. You said it'd be a lot easier to forgive 5-5 if it had a good mystery. I really liked the mystery in that case and I loved the way it all came together (the moon rock being launched into space might be my favorite turnabout in the series. Also, finding out Clay was killed for the Hope capsule and then that being the reason the courtroom exploded was one of my few "OOOOOOOOOOOOH" moments in the series). I do like 1-5 more because I was newer to the series so I was less immune to the turnabouts as I am now (I knew Iris was only stabbing a corpse in 3-5, just like 1-5, and she was only an accomplice to cover up the real murderer, just like 1-5. I won't say those are rip-offs, though, because of the weird order the cases came out in). I was also able to predict that Athena and Simon would be innocent (took me until 5-4, though. Not 5-2 lol) but it certainly didn't ruin the case for me. I don't want really want to get into a debate on whether the mystery is good or bad in 5-5, so agree to disagree on that point?
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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1-4 isn't really clear on this... They always just say "not guilty", not "not guilty by insanity" or something like that. It actually confused me for quite a while. The way someone explained it to me was that Hammond didn't argue that 'Yanni killed him but wasn't responsible because of his mental state', but 'Because of Yanni's mental state, he was incapable of killing him'. Again, 1-4 isn't really clear on this. Still, whether it was a straight not guilty or a straight insanity plea, Yanni still wasn't "convicted" like Simon.
Do you mean Hammond's murder or DL-6? Because DL-6 didn't have a photo like that. But either way, 5-5 didn't have a photo where everyone the 'defendant' is actually the victim.
In other words, the murders were personal, and for Phantom as an 'individual'. Calisto's murder of Byrne was for the 'organization'; the murder of Mack was then to get away with the murder of Byrne. I-4 as a whole, though, was due to the 'organization'. In 5-5, the 'organization' just wanted to stop the rockets, or whatever it was; the murders--the actual case--was due from Phantom personally.
What are you talking about, 4-3 is great~ (You just have to pretend Machi doesn't exist.) I thought the theme in 4-3 was really important... That's the whole trick the alibi thing is based on. Plus there's the second corpse in I-4. Yeah, you can make them sound similar... but you need to omit a lot of important (imo) stuff to do so.
I suppose there isn't much choice but to agree to disagree. I thought Phantom's fixation with the moon rock was stupid, and also thought it was contrived how the schedule of the rockets/moon rock capsule fit perfectly with UR-1 and Simon's execution and everything. The explanation for Athena's fingerprints was just lame, especially considering there was really no reason to present the lighter to the court anyway. (If you're going to do a "The detective forged evidence!" trick, there are much better ways of doing it. Such as in GK2.) And while I don't have a specific complaint about the rotating space center/jumping to the ladder thing, I just found it... underwhelming. (If I had to vocalize it, I suppose I would say that even if Phantom doesn't have fear or whatever, it still seemed like an inordinately risky thing to do. I also thought it was stupid how the space center was apparently constructed so that those segments weren't closed up while they were rotating; it seemed like a massive safety hazard to me, especially considering one of those buildings was an exhibition open to the public.)
(C'mon, of course Athena and Blackquill were going to be innocent. AA is much too safe of a series to do anything like let a main character actually be guilty.)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Ok. Yogi wasn't convicted. So we'll say "tried and determined to be the killer"?
I meant Hammond's murder (the photo that Lana took. Everyone assumed the one holding the gun was Edgeworth but Phoenix proved it was the murderer). There was a photo in 5-5. It was the one of Clay and Starbuck leaving the space museum (it was more focused on in 5-4, but they're pretty much one case since the murder isn't solved until 5-5).
The ring wanted Byrne dead because he was trouble. Calisto didn't have to kill Mack Rell (he actually helped her move his body). She killed him because he was a loose end and possibly a danger to her. I'm sure Alba wouldn't give a shit if Calisto got arrested. The Phantom had to destroy the HAT-1. He killed Metis because she was possibly a danger to him. Whether or not the organization would care if the Phantom got arrested is up in the air. I doubt they wanted to lose someone as proficient as him. They could've also just been afraid of him being arrested and talking (maybe they were the sniper at the end)? I mentioned this on another thread, but 4-3 (to me) is an example of a great mystery done terribly and I-4 is an example of a bad mystery done wonderfully. 4-3 was just kind of boring and I really don't remember much. It doesn't make much sense with Machi, the killer is boring, Lamiroir is boring, and a lot of the twists could be seen from a mile away. Plus, Klavier put up zero opposition, even though it would be totally understandable if he did. Anyway, you can make 1-5 and 5-5 sound similar too, but you have to omit a lot of important details (space, space center bombing, blackmail, spies, robots, courtroom bombing, and the mystery being different)
The fixation with the moon rock was understandable, considering him being exposed wouldn't just put his identity at risk, but his life (snipers). The fingerprints thing was kind of lame, though. Why would he frame someone else for murder when his first framing was going so well? It's the same thing that confuses me about 1-4. Why would von Karma frame Edgeworh for Hammond's murder? I understand his motives, but why not wait four days first? He put himself at a giant risk. To my understanding, the space center had stopped switching the launch pads once the second one became a museum. Maybe the doors opened in case of emergency? Like, a fire started while it was in motion? Who knows. The point is, it wasn't for the public to use and they probably trusted professionals to not be stupid enough to open while it was moving. And the Phantom is a badass spy who defies death with risky stunts everyday. Jumping from a moving building (probably fairly slow moving) to a small ladder in order to avoid a security camera is worth the risk to him. I don't think the fact that he was emotionless was necessary, though
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Well, from my understanding, Yogi wasn't decided to be the killer... It just went totally unsolved.
That photo is 5-4, not 5-5 :P
The organization wanted Byrne's murder. Mack's murder was just a mean to that end. The organization wanted HAT destroyed. Metis'/Clay's murder had no relevance to that. Does looking at it that way work?
Heh, I think I can agree with those descriptions of I-4 and 4-3.
Space and bombing weren't really important (they were just the setting and a plot device), blackmail was in both cases, spies weren't important (it just happened to be the killer's occupation), robots weren't important (they were a plot device in the present, and in the past the foundation of the mystery, which I've admitted is different), and the mystery is different--it's the same story, with a different mystery draped over it.
It was just some blood. They would then need to capture him and compare the blood to figure out it was him. Oh, and there wasn't really much to suggest that the blood on the rock would've belonged to the Phantom anyway. The motive behind the whole thing is just very vague and uninteresting.
Von Karma wanted Edgey convicted of murdering his father. That's why he didn't wait 4 days. He never expected anyone would be able to solve his perfect crime!
I just found the whole ladder trick extremely underwhelming. Like I said, I wasn't very confident in my ability to vocalize why xP You can justify the things I said in ways that wouldn't be too bad, but... it doesn't change the fact that the trick was underwhelming.
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