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Re: GS5 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

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gems_01 wrote:
Case 4
Spoiler:
Space is cool. I liked that Apollo was so involved in the case since it was his best friend who died, but it would have been better I think if we'd been able to meet Clay. Like if Apollo had got everyone together to meet his best bud and we'd heard all his dreams of going into space (he could have given a tour around the station) and how much Apollo helped him out back in their school days... and then next thing we know Clay's been murdered...? That would have been a holy sh!t moment for me.
Spoiler: In retrospect...
...that would've been nice. All previous AA games had a case where you meet the victim before they're killed. But now DD has gone and... didn't. Well, unless AAI2 already broke this tradition, but I haven't played that yet.

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Bolt Storm wrote:
Cormag, I don't think BP meant it to mock you - he just meant that compared to the GK games, GS5 has a low number of returning characters. Which is true - GS5 only has 6 returning characters (7 with the judge), 4 of which are basically cameos, as opposed to say, GK2's 14.

This.

Sorry, Cormag, you're right--I definitely could have phrased my post better and made it more substantive.

Also I agree with you that most of the returning characters in GS5 basically didn't have a role. However, I don't think GS5 had "many" returning characters, no matter what angle you look at it from.
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I have to agree, the game forgot the "play, don't show" rule. They had obvious spots for mini games and they just didn't do it. There was almost no 3d evidence examination either. Kinda sad given that this is a game exclusively for the 3ds.

And yeah, the voice acting was horrible. It's not that the actors did any exceptionally bad jobs, but just bad casting. I suppose that at least Widget got a matching voice actor...
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henke37 wrote:
I have to agree, the game forgot the "play, don't show" rule. They had obvious spots for mini games and they just didn't do it. There was almost no 3d evidence examination either. Kinda sad given that this is a game exclusively for the 3ds.

And yeah, the voice acting was horrible. It's not that the actors did any exceptionally bad jobs, but just bad casting. I suppose that at least Widget got a matching voice actor...

Partly agree. I'm okay with the acting, though not particularly impressed but I agree the game feels soooo railroaded.

I mean, what is the point of having the "notes" feature if the game constantly just takes you to the next place of interest and if every examination area is completely pseudo-linear (aka. check everything conveniently laid out in one spot to progress)... wait... I feel like I've said this before?
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linkenski wrote:
henke37 wrote:
I have to agree, the game forgot the "play, don't show" rule. They had obvious spots for mini games and they just didn't do it. There was almost no 3d evidence examination either. Kinda sad given that this is a game exclusively for the 3ds.

And yeah, the voice acting was horrible. It's not that the actors did any exceptionally bad jobs, but just bad casting. I suppose that at least Widget got a matching voice actor...

Partly agree. I'm okay with the acting, though not particularly impressed but I agree the game feels soooo railroaded.

I mean, what is the point of having the "notes" feature if the game constantly just takes you to the next place of interest and if every examination area is completely pseudo-linear (aka. check everything conveniently laid out in one spot to progress)... wait... I feel like I've said this before?

Don't forget that a fair chunk of talk options disappear after you've done them!
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That didn't really bother me though. It's mostly just the fact that investigations no longer has the illusion of freedom and instead just moves the player forward with all the tools he/she needs available at ever instance that's kinda lame, and bad gameplay-design.

Also in just about any Witness Testimony you end up hearing another piece of music before you get to the actual cross-examination because the dialogue back-and-forth just goes on and on forever... but oh wait, I'm in the wrong topic here.

Spoiler: Aura
Just at the end of case 4 now and I have to say I liked Aura quite a lot. I can see how the plotline is starting to show the patterns of the franchise ("seven years ago" *sigh*) but so far the story still has done a lot to stand on its own... and Athena isn't as much of a Sue as I initially thought after seeing the rough story-arc in the Japanese version.

Anyway, Aura is nice, but it baffles me she's Blackquill's older sister. She does feel very sinister though so I guess there's a similarity there :P

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linkenski wrote:
Spoiler: Aura
Just at the end of case 4 now and I have to say I liked Aura quite a lot. I can see how the plotline is starting to show the patterns of the franchise ("seven years ago" *sigh*) but so far the story still has done a lot to stand on its own... and Athena isn't as much of a Sue as I initially thought after seeing the rough story-arc in the Japanese version.

Anyway, Aura is nice, but it baffles me she's Blackquill's older sister. She does feel very sinister though so I guess there's a similarity there :P

Spoiler: Case 5
You mean how the plot is exactly the same as 1-5's?

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What they did was to remove examination from areas where it isn't needed. That's all they really changed. The examinations are still like before, investigate all important spots to move on. The only thing removed is a little extra flavor text.

The "jump to any location" thing doesn't change squat. Events still happen in the correct order using a lot of flags, just like before. All it does is letting the player skip unimportant middle steps. I like that, because I hate tedious menus.

The new investigation notes feature only exposes how linear the game is. The thing is, I don't care. Visual novels are linear. Some let you mix a few threads at a time, but ultimately things need to happen in order. You don't play them to change the story, but to experience the story. It is more of a book than a game.
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Bad Player wrote:
linkenski wrote:
Spoiler: Aura
Just at the end of case 4 now and I have to say I liked Aura quite a lot. I can see how the plotline is starting to show the patterns of the franchise ("seven years ago" *sigh*) but so far the story still has done a lot to stand on its own... and Athena isn't as much of a Sue as I initially thought after seeing the rough story-arc in the Japanese version.

Anyway, Aura is nice, but it baffles me she's Blackquill's older sister. She does feel very sinister though so I guess there's a similarity there :P

Spoiler: Case 5
You mean how the plot is exactly the same as 1-5's?

BP, consider that having the dynamic of the three protagonists and having Apollo's leave of absence, the whole theme of The Dark Age of Law and all that does do things for DD to differentiate it even if it is awfully similar to 1-5 in its overarching plot. I've not understood every bit of detail in the JP livestream so after I've beaten case 5 fully (i'm at the investigation still -_-) I might agree with your claim, or not. But it certainly is an issue that the AA team needs to move away from in the future if it is as bad as you make it sound!
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henke37 wrote:
What they did was to remove examination from areas where it isn't needed. That's all they really changed. The examinations are still like before, investigate all important spots to move on. The only thing removed is a little extra flavor text.

The "jump to any location" thing doesn't change squat. Events still happen in the correct order using a lot of flags, just like before. All it does is letting the player skip unimportant middle steps. I like that, because I hate tedious menus.

The new investigation notes feature only exposes how linear the game is. The thing is, I don't care. Visual novels are linear. Some let you mix a few threads at a time, but ultimately things need to happen in order. You don't play them to change the story, but to experience the story. It is more of a book than a game.


It sure made the game go by faster, but I did miss some of the extra investigation stuff. It just adds character, which is half the point. Don't get me wrong, fast travel is great and I'm glad that it let you know once you'd investigated everything necessary, but if the game is going to say, "I should show him THIS" at every chance, it might as well present the evidence for you. A little illusion of free will goes a long way.
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henke37 wrote:
What they did was to remove examination from areas where it isn't needed. That's all they really changed. The examinations are still like before, investigate all important spots to move on. The only thing removed is a little extra flavor text.

B-b-but Charleeeeey! :larry:

Yeah, in hindsight, it's just more time spent wandering everywhere, but it's that little freedom in a rather linear visual novel that makes it more of a game than just a book. If this series was a literary series from the start, that would have been fine. However, that's not the case. Visual novels in general aren't as popular among video game fans because there's a limit to actual interactive play. The anime scenes also add a little taste to things, as it helps better visualize the scenes, but that doesn't do much for the game specifically.

I keep repeating it, but Logic Chess in GK2 felt like wasted opportunity. If they do enhance - as in diversify - it in GK3, then that'd be so wonderful. Likewise, let GS6 have more optional things to do. I enjoy sidequests; that's why I always take forever when I'm playing an adventure RPG.
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henke37 wrote:
The only thing removed is a little extra flavor text.

Yes.

I suppose we simply differ in how much we valued said flavor text.

linkenski wrote:
BP, consider that having the dynamic of the three protagonists and having Apollo's leave of absence, the whole theme of The Dark Age of Law and all that does do things for DD to differentiate it even if it is awfully similar to 1-5 in its overarching plot. I've not understood every bit of detail in the JP livestream so after I've beaten case 5 fully (i'm at the investigation still -_-) I might agree with your claim, or not. But it certainly is an issue that the AA team needs to move away from in the future if it is as bad as you make it sound!

I didn't find the dynamic of the three protagonists too different (we usually only see 2 at once, in which case they tend to have similar dynamics to that we've already seen), and even if they spam "DARK AGE OF LAW!!" at us, forgery and corrupt prosecutors/policemen/attornies/judges isn't anything we haven't seen before.

In the following spoiler tag, I've written out the plot of one of AA's cases, but with certain details replaced with blanks. Now I wonder if you can identify which case I'm talking about...
Spoiler: Case 5
Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. [Person A] framed the crime on [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D] discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].

(Also, the problem isn't just that the plot was basically copied from 1-5. It's also that the foreshadowing they did was TERRIBLE. I had the entire contents of the spoiler tag figured out by the end of the first investigation of case 2.)
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Alright that's some spot-on analysis you've got there and I can already recognize it with the case 5 stuff I know so far.
And like you say the "End justifies the means" and "DARK AGE AF LAEW" gets so annoying when the term is so vague. It makes it sound like everything's gone to shits but it's basically the exact same problem GS1 portrayed and I felt like it did it in a much more IRL-reflecting way.
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At least in this game they've gotten to a theme of space. I don't think they could go any further out there than that. I just remembered one of the early concept arts had a courtroom in the clouds, though. Is that what they call "divine judgment"?
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I heard of that as well... Holy hell I'm glad that's likely never happening!!! But yes, as you say, the Space theme is a nice change of pace. I just wish the story didn't have to feel so... patterned. All the cases pay too much homage to earlier GS cases IMO.
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I found a little Easter egg of sort during the third case.
Spoiler:
They quote some lyrics of "Don't Stop me now" of Queen, and I'm pretty sure it's a reference to this Osu! Don't Stop me now. (Feat Phoenix Wright)
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McNarrow wrote:
I found a little Easter egg of sort during the third case.
Spoiler:
They quote some lyrics of "Don't Stop me now" of Queen, and I'm pretty sure it's a reference to this Osu! Don't Stop me now. (Feat Phoenix Wright)

Ah, I love that video. Such a perfect crossover.
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About the last case...

Spoiler:
I'm skeptical about Phantom surviving the sniper attack. Is that what happened in the original Japanese version?

Truth will come to light.

William Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice.
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SwordKing wrote:
About the last case...

Spoiler:
I'm skeptical about Phantom surviving the sniper attack. Is that what happened in the original Japanese version?

Yup.
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Something just came to my mind.
Spoiler: In case 3
Apollo says to Klavier "It's a shame you guys stopped playing together, really!" (paraphrasing) referring to the Gavinners but he MEANS it? WTF. That's really out of character for Apollo. He might've been envious be he outright hated their music in AJ:AA, he called it glam and he thought it was too loud.

How did they not get that right?
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linkenski wrote:
Alright that's some spot-on analysis you've got there and I can already recognize it with the case 5 stuff I know so far.
And like you say the "End justifies the means" and "DARK AGE AF LAEW" gets so annoying when the term is so vague. It makes it sound like everything's gone to shits but it's basically the exact same problem GS1 portrayed and I felt like it did it in a much more IRL-reflecting way.


Exactly... this supposed "dark age" has really been going on for a while. Manfred von Karma and Damon Gant were both guilty of murder and forging evidence, Edgeworth had been rumored to be forging evidence (and was on trial twice in the same day for two different murders), and Calisto Yew was also guilty of murder among other crimes and deceit. I could buy that the dark age hit a peak with Phoenix's disbarment and Simon's conviction happening within a year of each other. But come on. Really.
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linkenski wrote:
Something just came to my mind.
Spoiler: In case 3
Apollo says to Klavier "It's a shame you guys stopped playing together, really!" (paraphrasing) referring to the Gavinners but he MEANS it? WTF. That's really out of character for Apollo. He might've been envious be he outright hated their music in AJ:AA, he called it glam and he thought it was too loud.

How did they not get that right?

And then
Spoiler:
Klav replied: "I know just how much you... adored our music." If the hesitant pause didn't give it away, I dunno what would.
So, there's no prob here, right?
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
linkenski wrote:
Something just came to my mind.
Spoiler: In case 3
Apollo says to Klavier "It's a shame you guys stopped playing together, really!" (paraphrasing) referring to the Gavinners but he MEANS it? WTF. That's really out of character for Apollo. He might've been envious be he outright hated their music in AJ:AA, he called it glam and he thought it was too loud.

How did they not get that right?

And then
Spoiler:
Klav replied: "I know just how much you... adored our music." If the hesitant pause didn't give it away, I dunno what would.
So, there's no prob here, right?

Correct
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Oh yes, that's right. I was just remembering it off the top of my head, So I forgot that detail.
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So! I finally played through it and I'm anxious to discuss everything that comes to my mind about this game. I've actually written most of it out in another topic and just found this one just now ( though I must admit it's hard to miss, being at the top and all.. :ron: ) so i'll just copy and paste here.

Sahnie wrote:
Well, after a long, long time I post again. I played DD through yesterday and I have to say, I think it's 'okay', but not more IMO.
I'm gonna elaborate on the reasons for that, because i just love to list things :D

Spoiler: the negatives. Spoiler for the whole game
- It was way too easy. Am I the only One one who thinks so? They literally pointed out the next step every Single time. 'Let's Talk to XY next!' 'Why don't we present THAT PHOTO to him?' And if you didn't pick up on those *subtle* hints you could always look it up in the Notes. It's a shame because i really loved to present random stuff to get different reactions, but it seemed ridiculous to do that when they tell you exactly what to present.
- Same in the courtroom. After pressing some statements or at the end of the Testimony, Most of the time they tell you what's wrong.
- it's sad that we are just able to investigate the Crime scene and Nothing more. I loved to investigate EVERYTHING just to get dialogue.
- the Lack of minigames. When Athena pulled out that fingerprint powder, i thought we could finally do something, but nope. Or repairing the Statue..i had hoped we'd be able to fix it like in 1-5 with the Vase. It's nothing big, but i just think those were opportunities missed.
- too many lawyers. They tried to give each of them an equal Share of time and Story, but it's hard with three lawyers and just Five cases.
- and with that, too many gadgets. I like each gadget on it's own, but it just seems that defending somebody is impossible if you don't have a superpower. PW1 had nothing of the sort and was great, and after that, one gadget (the magatama) was more than enough.
- no punishments for magatama/perceiving/moodmatrix. Made the game even easier.
- i felt like they couldn't decide between Hobo!Phoenix and the old Phoenix.. They showed two completely different Characters, especially if you looked through Athenas POV.
- the cameos were nice, but Pearls cameo was forced and so random. She Shows up to clean his Office. Then she goes home.
- somehow, i didn't Feel like Blackquill was much of a rival. He helped us even most of the times, got mad at the witnesses when they were lying and wanted the truth. I get that he has to be 'good' in this 'dark Age of law', but being used to the von Karmas who rather explain why the lie still made Sense than forcing the witness to say the truth.. He didn't feel like a challenge, and i was glad when edgey showed up.


Spoiler: the positives. Spoilers for all cases
- as somebody who didn't like AJ, this game made me like his character and Klavier a lot more
- i loved maya's Letter.
- the 3D stuff felt great, and although we could only investigate the Crime scene, i like how thoroughly we could do that with different angles.
- very good twists. I was shocked when I realized that Fulbright is the Bad Guy.. I got quite attached to him.
- i love that the cases are all connected somehow and emotionally build up, and that Apollo keeps mentioning Clay in previous cases. Made me feel sorry for Apollo, and at some point even think that Clay maybe didn't *really* die.
- the explanation of the black Psyche locks. Bit weird though, huh? So Kristoph has a buried memory?
- the theme songs. They were full of awesome.


That's my opinion on the game, i guess. I know the negatives are more than the positives, but i still did enjoy the game, i just think it Comes after the Original Series in my Personal Ranking.. But still in front of Apollo Justice.

Spoiler: random thoughts
- edgey and Nick totally have their Moments. I might start to ship those two if Maya doesn't come back ;).
- why does nobody react when a freaking sniper shoots around in the courtroom? They didn't even look for him, or, idk, run away.
- Nick doesn't care at all that his daughter is held hostage, does he? I even forgot it sometimes. I have to say that his strengthens my Nick/Maya ship - when Maya was kidnapped, it was way more important ( even to him, it seems ) ;)



And I didn't See the 1-5 /5-5 similiarities until just now... But written like that, i guess they are very similar.
I'm german.. so please forgive me mistakes etc. x)
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Spoiler:
I second a lot of posts beginning with "Cykes was too present" and "suspects were too obvious".

Once again, the game lacked ambition and did a "one-shot plot lines for only one video game"
When will we have a coherent saga, with a threaded mystery lasting for 3 games (but better done than the first trilogy, which was piecing some fragments together, hoping for coherence)
Now that the game is mature and the staff knows it can easily make a saga without (utter) financial loss, why not more emphasis in it ? Wish that phantom thing would have not been resolved till GS6... But the so-called "dark age of law" was eventually resolved kinda poorly in the same game it "appeared" (even though it's been a long time ago as well outlined before). Way to lose 7 years for nothing... With such time gaps, I expect Phoenix to be 50 years old in GS6 just to avoid any plot miscoherences considering the amount of information from both GS and GK series.

Too much importance in the mood matrix (i was like wtf when the judge said "it weighs the same as evidences", srsly wtf...)

Still no correction about the clear lack of "potential suspects". About the lack of stake around penalties, that's inherent to the game mechanics unfortunately.

About "returning characters were not given any role" : that's true. But imo, Trucy and Klavier are nothing more than rag dolls/fillers, ever since they've come to the series. What has proven their usefulness, both in terms of scripts & character interest, so far ? Nothing I can see. Except if you're fan of dumb panties running gags (how can someone actually talk about "gag") and empty bragging personnalities with no balls to hold for... (weakest rival so far in the series)

The lack of a real face to put on the "bad guy" is really dramatic for the whole charisma of the game, i'd say.

Cases 4 and cases 5 shouldn't have been separated, seriously...

Eventually, Apollo wasn't as developed as he could be. Think about it. He's just "cooler", but that's pretty much about it. Recalling one's memories doesn't make up for char dev. Now we barely only know he had a friend and that he likes space. Wow. What about the frigging unused plot holes left in GS4 mah boy ? Your mother, your father, etc. ? How is Clay anyway ? We read about 3 lines of the guy from his 10 year former self. How is it an important character ?

Really appreciated the work on some animations, most notably Means' board and Cosmos' segway

It doesn't bother me that much that the game is railed : after all, as previously said, there are no real stakes to define. Come on, we're playing a novel and there's nothing we can do about it. Cause that's what we like. (henke37 said it all, heh). HOWEVER the incessant removal of evidences stroke me, in a bad way. I would also have expected little more toughness on the use of special powers (especially Apollo's ring)

gems > Fulbright was needed everywhere so to be emotionnally tied, blablah. THATHZ TEH PHANTOM CMON
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Spoiler: Apollo's arc
I also felt like they could've gone much further with Apollo. It was more like he got some depth in this game but IMO his friendship with his contrived friend Clay felt too sappy, and seriously, couldn't they have made that bro-picture with the two more dude-bro'ish or something? Now people are all over it shipping the two because of its "Yaoi" appeal. I dislike that. Of course when I say contrived it spring to light that it couldn't really have been much different. He was left as a blank slate because of poor planning by Takumi with AJ:AA so they had to make something "contrived" to develop his character.

But I honestly think he should've gone more "to the dark side". I get that he left because he needed peace to gather his thoughts, look for his own answers and stay away from Athena so he didn't percieve her and get the wrong impression, but I wish he'd gone so far that he'd have done something to regret making it harder for him to go back to being his good ol' self. I would've loved it if DD ended on a cliffhanger with Apollo's future still being left as a mystery.

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Re: GS5 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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Wait... When does the DLC case take place? It seems like Nick just got his badge, but they already know Ban, but I thought Nick had his badge back by case two?
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Spoiler:
What happened with the Jurist System? Is it implied or is it gone?
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Bad Player wrote:
Wait... When does the DLC case take place? It seems like Nick just got his badge, but they already know Ban, but I thought Nick had his badge back by case two?


It takes place between case 2 and case 3. Nick gets his badge back shortly after case 2.

Lumine wrote:
Spoiler:
What happened with the Jurist System? Is it implied or is it gone?


Spoiler:
It's gone.


That question might be better suited for the "I just want to know one thing" thread, by the way.
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Spoiler: case 5/case 1
Actually, now that I think about it, who is responsible for the courtroom bombing? The Phantom or Ted Tonate?
The way I understood it, the phantom had the remote switch, and tonate activated the bomb again. Now, how did the Phantom know that / did Tonate even plan on bombing the court room? Because the Phantom bombed it to get rid of the moonstone, didn't he..? Looking back, that part is kind of confusing.

I'm german.. so please forgive me mistakes etc. x)
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Sahnie wrote:
Spoiler: case 5/case 1
Actually, now that I think about it, who is responsible for the courtroom bombing? The Phantom or Ted Tonate?
The way I understood it, the phantom had the remote switch, and tonate activated the bomb again. Now, how did the Phantom know that / did Tonate even plan on bombing the court room? Because the Phantom bombed it to get rid of the moonstone, didn't he..? Looking back, that part is kind of confusing.


Spoiler:
At the end of Case 1, we all suspected Tonate to be the bomber. It wasn't until we heard about the Phantom when he was a possible suspect. Tonate said he didn't bomb Courtroom No. 4; the current evidence said otherwise at that moment. We then proved it was the Phantom behind it all. He detonated the bomb to destroy the moon rock: the one imcriminating evidence against him. The only things Tonate is guilty of is second-degree murder and selling bombs to the black market.

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linkenski wrote:
Spoiler: Apollo's arc
I also felt like they could've gone much further with Apollo. It was more like he got some depth in this game but IMO his friendship with his contrived friend Clay felt too sappy, and seriously, couldn't they have made that bro-picture with the two more dude-bro'ish or something? Now people are all over it shipping the two because of its "Yaoi" appeal. I dislike that. Of course when I say contrived it spring to light that it couldn't really have been much different. He was left as a blank slate because of poor planning by Takumi with AJ:AA so they had to make something "contrived" to develop his character.


Spoiler:
I found the picture to be pretty dude-bro'ish already. Anyway, the very existence of a best friend already means "yaoi" for most people, so I'd say the picture is pretty much irrelevant to the whole case.
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Aside from the previous notes...
Spoiler: My opinion
It wasn't the best but it was a good Ace Attorney game. I can't say I'm disappointed with it at all. Im only disappointed that the Gramarye/Jurist thing was thrown away... and come on, in the Dark Age of Law, the Jurist system isn't being implemented? What the ****? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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Did anyone else just know Aristotle Means was gonna be the culprit for the case the second they saw him??
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You put that in spoiler tags right now >:o

But to answer your question,
Spoiler: Case 3
I thought Means was going to be blackmailing the students since his ideology differed from Prof. Courte.
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poptdp wrote:
Did anyone else just know Aristotle Means was gonna be the culprit for the case the second they saw him??

I saw him on the japanese live-stream and didn't understand a whole lot, but I knew his english name was Means at the time, so I kept writing "The end justifies the Means" and silly stuff like that, so it was a surprise to me that they went with that in the translation. It was obvious he was the killer from the second he smiled, and because the writer was dumb enough to make Athena point it out. Not suspicious at all. :shoe:
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On an unrelated Note, I thought it really weird that they always had photos of the Crime scene with UNCONSCIOUS victims. You'd think the first reaction would be to help them, but apparantly, they take a Photo before saving any lifes.
I'm german.. so please forgive me mistakes etc. x)
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"The end justifies the means" has been present long since someone in this game popularized the phrase. I suppose that extends to "Preserving the crime scene by all means!"

...Now I have a really silly theory that Professor Means isn't 48 (or however old he's labeled as); he's muuuuch older. I dunno who's older; him or the judge...
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
"The end justifies the means" has been present long since someone in this game popularized the phrase. I suppose that extends to "Preserving the crime scene by all means!"

...Now I have a really silly theory that Professor Means isn't 48 (or however old he's labeled as); he's muuuuch older. I dunno who's older; him or the judge...

I thought he was a moving mannequin when I first saw him.
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