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Re: Case 5 discussion thread (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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I really like the motives, too. Furio Tigre's was a particularly clever one. It was also disappointing for me in DD. The team can do motives, though, since AAI2 and AAI-5 had good motives. I did like the Phantom's motive, though (and his theme). He killed Metis not because he was ordered to; it was a side job while taking out the HAT-1. He killed her to get the psych profile. If he was exposed, he would've been killed by the other assassins. I thought it was clever how Clay was killed to get the moon rock because the Hope Capsule seemed pretty irrelevant. Plus, NO other villain in the series would go as far to kill a courtroom full of people to get rid of a piece of evidence. The Phantom is a really interesting and malicious villain, but they didn't explore him enough so it was kind of flat

With Takumi, EVERY final villain (if you count Dahlia as the final villain and not Godot, and you count von Karma as the final villain instead of Gant) was very petty. That's what their motives boiled down to. I'm not trying to bash Takumi because I know some people like that about his writing, but there is a difference. With the final villains that the new team has made, you actually feel like there was a need for the villains to kill the victim. Alba killed Coachen because Coachen was going to usurp him as ambassador and pin the entire smuggling ring on him, and I already explained the Phantom's motive above. Von Karma was upset about his broken win record, Dahlia was a bitch, Engarde was just evil and didn't want to be besmirched, and Kristoph had wounded pride/an inferiority complex towards his brother (I actually do like Kristoph's motive, though, unlike others)

I do think Takumi had better villains, though (except Dahlia). Gant was perfect, Engarde was very threatening and had control over you, von Karma is the biggest opposition, and Kristoph is always calm, cool, and collected (he also never gets cornered or gets a contradiction in his testimony). When it comes down to the motives, though, the new team does it better with the final villains
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JesusMonroe wrote:
With the final villains that the new team has made, you actually feel like there was a need for the villains to kill the victim.

I... still don't see this at all with Phantom. Okay, so the psych profile can identify him... but they would still need to catch him first. It's not like they can psycho-analyze the voice of every single person in the world. And he's a master of disguise--he can always adopt a new identify if necessary. And even then the psych profile didn't seem like it should be that big a deal to him, because even if they catch+test him, he can still fake emotions in his voice.
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Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
With the final villains that the new team has made, you actually feel like there was a need for the villains to kill the victim.

I... still don't see this at all with Phantom. Okay, so the psych profile can identify him... but they would still need to catch him first. It's not like they can psycho-analyze the voice of every single person in the world. And he's a master of disguise--he can always adopt a new identify if necessary. And even then the psych profile didn't seem like it should be that big a deal to him, because even if they catch+test him, he can still fake emotions in his voice.


I'd always assumed he'd went to stop the psych-profile being made but was merely too late to prevent it being complete and sent away. Sure it's not the end of the world if it gets out but it's still a big clue I can still see him going after it.

Alternatively he went after it to sabotage ATHENA-DROID-001 seeing how the emotion tech in her would be crippling to espionage if it got mass produced. Of course he hadn't counted on Athena being armed and had to settle for killing the creator if not the created and them being unable to reverse-engineer the phenomenon.
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Re: Case 5 discussion thread (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Now that I think about it, why couldn't the Phantom be an android? It explains why we don't get to see his face after his breakdown: HE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING UNDER THOSE FACES. I mean, little Athena being covered in blood is one thing; imagine a metallic skull with laser/light sensors for eyes, that's trauma right there. And finally, it explains how he can have so many masks without suffocating in them. It's the perfect theory!
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Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
With the final villains that the new team has made, you actually feel like there was a need for the villains to kill the victim.

I... still don't see this at all with Phantom. Okay, so the psych profile can identify him... but they would still need to catch him first. It's not like they can psycho-analyze the voice of every single person in the world. And he's a master of disguise--he can always adopt a new identify if necessary. And even then the psych profile didn't seem like it should be that big a deal to him, because even if they catch+test him, he can still fake emotions in his voice.

Well, I was more referring to the murder of Clay Terran. In the AA universe, you don't need a criminal record to have your DNA on file. The police have all of that (when they find out the moon rock blew up in the courtroom, they analyze the blood on it and realize it belongs to the Phantom)

With Metis, it's possible he didn't know how damaging the psych profile was. Evidence piles up. The psych profile could've led to something else (maybe a story about a young Phantom in Juvy who registered no emotion) and people would start putting pieces together

--------------------------------------------------
Anyway, there were a few things that bothered me about this case

1. The Phantom rips up the psych profile in front of the entire courtroom and nobody says anything. The Judge doesn't even go, "You can't do that!" and then get intimidated. They just accept it. What's to stop the Phantom from ripping Athena's ear off and destroying the moon rock?

2. Someone mentioned it earlier, but during the courtroom lobby, Nick and Blackquill have a nice heart to heart where they talk about how they started the Dark Age of the Law. Later in court, they repeat the exact same conversation, which diminished the first one

3. (This didn't bother me until a replay)
Fulbright "admits" to being the Phantom's accomplice. He says that the Phantom kidnapped his family, ordered him to lower the emergency ladder, and then frame Athena. This clears up ALL of the contradictions in the case, yet Phoenix and Apollo are like, "What? How does anyone believe this?" There's NO evidence to prove otherwise. The worst part is, if Fulbright actually was the accomplice to the Phantom, Phoenix and Apollo would've accepted that argument and said, "Darn. He really is his accomplice, huh? I wonder who the real killer is, then?"
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Now that I think about it, why couldn't the Phantom be an android? It explains why we don't get to see his face after his breakdown: HE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING UNDER THOSE FACES. I mean, little Athena being covered in blood is one thing; imagine a metallic skull with laser/light sensors for eyes, that's trauma right there. And finally, it explains how he can have so many masks without suffocating in them. It's the perfect theory!

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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Now that I think about it, why couldn't the Phantom be an android? It explains why we don't get to see his face after his breakdown: HE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING UNDER THOSE FACES. I mean, little Athena being covered in blood is one thing; imagine a metallic skull with laser/light sensors for eyes, that's trauma right there. And finally, it explains how he can have so many masks without suffocating in them. It's the perfect theory!

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JesusMonroe wrote:
I really like the motives, too. Furio Tigre's was a particularly clever one. It was also disappointing for me in DD. The team can do motives, though, since AAI2 and AAI-5 had good motives. I did like the Phantom's motive, though (and his theme). He killed Metis not because he was ordered to; it was a side job while taking out the HAT-1. He killed her to get the psych profile. If he was exposed, he would've been killed by the other assassins. I thought it was clever how Clay was killed to get the moon rock because the Hope Capsule seemed pretty irrelevant. Plus, NO other villain in the series would go as far to kill a courtroom full of people to get rid of a piece of evidence. The Phantom is a really interesting and malicious villain, but they didn't explore him enough so it was kind of flat

With Takumi, EVERY final villain (if you count Dahlia as the final villain and not Godot, and you count von Karma as the final villain instead of Gant) was very petty. That's what their motives boiled down to. I'm not trying to bash Takumi because I know some people like that about his writing, but there is a difference. With the final villains that the new team has made, you actually feel like there was a need for the villains to kill the victim. Alba killed Coachen because Coachen was going to usurp him as ambassador and pin the entire smuggling ring on him, and I already explained the Phantom's motive above. Von Karma was upset about his broken win record, Dahlia was a bitch, Engarde was just evil and didn't want to be besmirched, and Kristoph had wounded pride/an inferiority complex towards his brother (I actually do like Kristoph's motive, though, unlike others)

I do think Takumi had better villains, though (except Dahlia). Gant was perfect, Engarde was very threatening and had control over you, von Karma is the biggest opposition, and Kristoph is always calm, cool, and collected (he also never gets cornered or gets a contradiction in his testimony). When it comes down to the motives, though, the new team does it better with the final villains


Believe it or not I'm not always disagreeing with you just for the hell of it, honest! I just really hate case 5-5.

I think the Phantom was an insult of a villain, in all honesty. As Bad Player already pointed out, the psych profile wouldn't do much on its own, and if the police magically were beginning to close in, it'd be easy for him to literally change face.

The problem with the Phantom is that, in the end, we just took down a big unknown. We don't know his name, age, nationality or anything that would make him more sympathetic and memorable. He was just a lackey of (presumably) some government, and catching him didn't feel as satisfying as wiping the smug smile off of Kristoph's face. We defeated a blank slate, and chances are its going to remain blank forever.

Also he's by far the most incompetent final villain to date. Not only did he hand over unedited, incredibly revealing video footage of himself, but he also apparently faked his emotions whenever he talked to Athena before the trial, but stopped doing it when it mattered the most (which was revealed thanks to Athena's and Blackquill's amazing teamwork! Lucky they had such a close bond and interacted so often on screen...oh wait). And then there's the lighter, but you get what I mean. Argh, the more I think about this case the angrier I get.
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I may have been joking in my last post, but on second thought, I have to wonder why this enemy nation didn't just send over a substitute in place of an actual person, who could still be influenced by emotion, despite his training. Heck, there could even be someone to activate the detonation process equipped on the android/cyborg/something, and BOOM! Game over, yeaaaaaah! (And give Ted Tonate an actual role.) It would have added to the already ridiculous level that we players have to suspend our disbelief, so it fits right in.

The more I return to this game, the more I feel like it's worth a thousand parodies.
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Thane wrote:
Believe it or not I'm not always disagreeing with you just for the hell of it, honest! I just really hate case 5-5.

I think the Phantom was an insult of a villain, in all honesty. As Bad Player already pointed out, the psych profile wouldn't do much on its own, and if the police magically were beginning to close in, it'd be easy for him to literally change face.

The problem with the Phantom is that, in the end, we just took down a big unknown. We don't know his name, age, nationality or anything that would make him more sympathetic and memorable. He was just a lackey of (presumably) some government, and catching him didn't feel as satisfying as wiping the smug smile off of Kristoph's face. We defeated a blank slate, and chances are its going to remain blank forever.

Also he's by far the most incompetent final villain to date. Not only did he hand over unedited, incredibly revealing video footage of himself, but he also apparently faked his emotions whenever he talked to Athena before the trial, but stopped doing it when it mattered the most (which was revealed thanks to Athena's and Blackquill's amazing teamwork! Lucky they had such a close bond and interacted so often on screen...oh wait). And then there's the lighter, but you get what I mean. Argh, the more I think about this case the angrier I get.

Don't worry. I understand your problems with 5-5

I don't think the Phantom was an insult of a villain. He'd be my least favorite final boss if Quercus Alba didn't exist. With the psych profile, I think it was less of a means of protecting himself from getting arrested than protecting himself from getting killed. Psych profile is made, leads to new evidence, Phantom evades police, police run out of leads, police release a press story, other assassins that are better than the Phantom (and don't get bested in a fight by a little girl) get contracted to kill him. These assassins lurk in wait during a mission where there's a high probability he'll show up, like the HAT-2. I'm not making this up. It's clear the Phantom was afraid of the assassins and that was always his priority. During his breakdown, he even yells, "I know you're here!"

I understand your complaints about him being a blank slate. I didn't feel satisfied when I took him down even though he ruined the lives of Apollo, Athena, Simon, almost an entire courtroom full of people, and he started the Dark Age of the Law. Problem is that the Dark Age of the Law fell flat and Athena is a character that's been done before, so it's hard to get invested in that.

The Phantom wasn't the one who handed the video evidence over. The Phantom is pretty incompetent and I don't really know what he was trying to accomplish with the lighter. At the end of the day, though, I'm fine with all of it. I know I complained a lot, but 5-5 is still one of my favorite cases (I know I said I like it better than 3-5 before, but that's not true. I said then because I had beaten 5-5 recently). I liked Phoenix and Apollo's mono y mono, I liked the mystery, and even though the Dark Age of the Law was a mess, I kind of liked the way they tied it in at the end. Also, I really like space :p

The thing is, all of the little stuff usually doesn't bother me unless it gets absolutely ridiculous, like 2-3. I don't think we should get into the issue of who had the videotape and all that again, but I was fine with it overall. I'm not trying to make excuses for the game and say, "It's okay to have lazy writing" because I'll always prefer one that's tightly written, but these little things don't drag the whole case down for me and I don't fixate on them. Same with Athena's character. I thought she was a pretty good character that was messily written and then turned into an ok character when she ate up the plot. That being said, the videotape contradiction could've easily be solved from the writers. They could've used video footage like Rise from the Ashes or TR and have a segment of the video missing like three seconds. Then, they could be like, "somebody edited this footage!"

Though, there's one other thing I want to bring up. In the Athena thread, I keep hearing that the relationship between Athena and Simon wasn't explored, Simon had no reason to do what he did, etc. I thought it was fairly simple

Athena: "Sh-Shame on you, Simon... for trying to throw your life away like that!"
Simon: "...It was never my intention to just throw my life away. But some things in this world are more important than your own life."
Athena: "Like what...?"
Simon: "My honor-bound duty to protect with my life... my mentor's most beloved treasure."
Athena: "Huh?"
Phoenix: (That's some loyalty...this guy really is a samurai, through and through.)

I never got the impression that Simon grew to love Athena when she was little. I thought he deeply respected and cared for Metis and decided to not ruin her daughter's life by getting her thrown in a mental institution
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I always thought it was out-of-place how Blackquill was a straight-up samurai in the first place, so that whole cross between sword-slasher and prosecutor seemed kinda weird to me, and in turn it's a pretty dull aspect to attribute to his character just to explain why he protected Athena IMHO.
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linkenski wrote:
I always thought it was out-of-place how Blackquill was a straight-up samurai in the first place, so that whole cross between sword-slasher and prosecutor seemed kinda weird to me, and in turn it's a pretty dull aspect to attribute to his character just to explain why he protected Athena IMHO.

Someone begs to differ on that prospect. :edgeworth:

Well, Blacky's design as a criminal prosecutor somehow warped into another samurai-like image, and I suppose we can attribute it to the original one. As I said before, this game pays homage to the trilogy like it's a religion in its own right. either that or it's plagiarism without actually being plagiarism because Capcom
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linkenski wrote:
I always thought it was out-of-place how Blackquill was a straight-up samurai in the first place, so that whole cross between sword-slasher and prosecutor seemed kinda weird to me, and in turn it's a pretty dull aspect to attribute to his character just to explain why he protected Athena IMHO.

I dunno, it fits well into the game's prosecutors so far:
-Payne: focus on hair
-Edgeworth:... well, he seems mostly normal but still: A mix between prosecutor and attorney, anyway, that's what he feels like in AAI
-Karma: WINWINWIN
-Franny: Whippin' shit outta everyone
-Godot: Throwing and drinking coffee all day, using metaphors, dat mask
-Klavier: Yaaay, he's a (former) rockstar and a prosecutor, for no real reason...
-Simon: A dude, who's an inmate, has a bird friend, uses Samurai- and sword-quotes, breaks shackles and acts calm and collected all around.

The dull-aspect you mention is just as dull.
AA-chars always have been kinda colorful (well, Simon is kinda lacking in that aspect of his design but oh well), for no actual reason but that makes the series so unique and funny.

Aaaaaaand this went kinda off topic, sorrey!
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I was kinda underwhelmed by the end of case 5, mostly 'cause I was spoiled (teaches me to look online on what hopefully will be a next game if it's announced), but if the phantom was this awesome spy he could've got away tons of times! With that flying thing, with the masks, he could've exited the country, plus I thought it was far fetched that just because he had 'no fear' he could leap twenty feet and land on an unstable ladder fifty feet from the ground, with perfect timing and momentum, and only did it from the Robotics Lab. He may have no fear, but he's no superhuman. Wait, it just occurred to me, he could've changed masks and then used the flying propeller thing to escape from the Space Museum! He's a spy! Ahh, whatever.
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Speaking of flying, I wish the flying Tenma Taro in case 2 wouldn't have been resolved and it turned out to be a glimpse of the Phantom scouring across the sky or something like that.

Just anything that could've made him feel less hamfisted in at the final case. I'd even have liked it if he really had been L'Belle and Means and all the other killers in the end, although that would've been too much of a Layton-esque twist I guess, because it's far-fetched as hell.
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I kind of wish they stopped putting flying things in their cases because I never like the twist that reveals it. It was a clever reveal in AAI2 but other times it always feels unrealistic (or in 5-2's case, underwhelming and tacked on)

Oh and AwesomelyAwkward, he didn't leap a straight twenty feet on the ground. Keep in mind he was the air so his path would've been parabolic. All he'd have to do is leap like fifteen feet and then fall eight (his momentum would carry him forward)
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But that still doesn't get rid of the fact that he jumped onto an unstable ladder and grabbed onto it without it toppling over, and without anyone seeing him. What a convoluted plan...
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I think that the way this was the tipping point to discovering Phantom was a bit... stretched. "We have to figure out how the killer got from spot A to spot B! I mean they couldn't possibly have jumped all the way, duh. Unless... they were incapable of feeling fear! Oh, I can see everything so clearly now!" Seriously?
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AwesomelyAwkward wrote:
But that still doesn't get rid of the fact that he jumped onto an unstable ladder and grabbed onto it without it toppling over, and without anyone seeing him. What a convoluted plan...

Everyone was in the basement shelter (they explained that's why nobody saw the launch pads moving). As for the ladder being unstable, it was hooked to the wall, so it wouldn't fall over. Sure, it would be hard to actually latch onto it, but a guy with no fear doesn't care
GoingforMiles wrote:
I think that the way this was the tipping point to discovering Phantom was a bit... stretched. "We have to figure out how the killer got from spot A to spot B! I mean they couldn't possibly have jumped all the way, duh. Unless... they were incapable of feeling fear! Oh, I can see everything so clearly now!" Seriously?

Well, the leaves proved that the door was opened while the launch pad was in motion. People were wondering why the bomber would bomb the stairs; it was to make sure a ladder would be put to use. The fact that the only ladder used was an unstable one on the fourth floor shows someone must've utilized it, so I can see the deduction there

As for going from, "Someone must've jumped on the ladder" to "It must be the Phantom!", yeah, it's kind of a stretch. I think Edgeworth was just trying to say that nobody would take the risk and Phoenix proved that the Phantom could be involved
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So I quickly replayed a part of this case and I just couldn't bear it. I've already expressed my utter dislike for this case, so I don't want to beat a dead horse, but does ANYONE actually like the part which I'm about to explain?

The Phantom comes up with a blatant lie and isn't really told off by anyone (not the first time in the Ace Attorney world mind you, so that part is not too bad - but), Simon pretends to believe it because he somehow knows he would fake happy emotions and that Athena would pick up on it, which of course leads to several questions: how did he know that? Why did the Phantom not fake his emotions on demand like he does literally two minutes afterwards? And are you seriously telling me Athena never picked up on that before OR that the Phantom faked it every single time he met Athena before, only to not to it when it matters the most? How could Simon count on Athena to do that when they had practically not talked in seven years? - Then Athena shoves Apollo out of the way, which seems to be a running theme in the game, and starts counseling in the middle of the court in the "dark age of the law" even though it's not proof in any way, shape or form AND the spectators are clearly against it! Do they seriously expect to restore faith in the court system by doing something nobody trusts?!

This, coupled with lackluster writing, the kidnapping which you keep forgetting about, lack of any twists, the bloody video nonsense and the feeling that the case really, really loves itself, make this the worst case in the entire franchise, like I've said numerous times. I don't mean to necro a thread only to voice my dislike and spew out negativity, but I need to make sure that this wasn't an issue only for me.
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I got the impression that Athena selectively heard the emotions when she needed to. When she encountered Fulbright before, he wasn't faking his emotions, but she wasn't listening in. Simon counted on Athena to do it because she's been listening into the hearts of every suspect for every case. It's not like he wouldn't expect her to not listen in on the man who (probably) murdered her mother. As for the peanut gallery being against the use of emotions, I feel like it was an idea they had that the writers never fully implemented into the structure of the case. Anyway, in the end, it was the Judge's final call on whether or not the emotions were admissible as evidence, and he decided to go for it seeing as it worked for the past five trials

I don't feel like saying the case loves itself should be a valid complaint, though, because that could be said about any other finale case in the series
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I don't feel like saying the case loves itself should be a valid complaint, though, because that could be said about any other finale case in the series

It's okay when it's justified :P

But yeah, after having Athena do it for the previous 2 (and a half? (and DLC)) cases, I guess he could figure that she'd do it then. And yeah, there's no reason Phantom couldn't have just faked his emotions. The stupidity of the dark age of the law also returns in terms of the gallery not believing in Athena's power... (We restore the public's trust by doing the exact opposite of what they want?) And Udgey never considers the possibility that maybe Widget wasn't actually showing the "true" emotions, and maybe in that moment Athena specially programmed it to say that Fulbright wasn't displaying emotions when he was...

And there's also all those other things you mentioned at the end. Yeah, the deeper you dig into 5-5, the worse it just seems to get.

I'm not expecting much from GS6, but at least we still have DGS to look forward to
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Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I don't feel like saying the case loves itself should be a valid complaint, though, because that could be said about any other finale case in the series

It's okay when it's justified :P

There's no proof of it, though. I'll acknowledge the case actually does have flaws, but that just seems like a pointless one to tack on. Why can't I say Bridge to the Turnabout is pretentious? Turnabout Succession? Farewell, My Turnabout? When Takumi made 3-5, do you think he was humble about it or was proud of the fact that the entire series he wrote came together in a fantastic way? Now, I'm not saying Takumi (or any other artist) shouldn't be proud of his own work, but arguing that something is pretentious just seems like something else to tack on as a complaint. There's not really any proof of it

Quote:
But yeah, after having Athena do it for the previous 2 (and a half? (and DLC)) cases, I guess he could figure that she'd do it then. And yeah, there's no reason Phantom couldn't have just faked his emotions.

Faking emotions seemed difficult (and obvious on what he was plotting). Plus, what part of the Phantom made you think he was smart?

Quote:
The stupidity of the dark age of the law also returns in terms of the gallery not believing in Athena's power... (We restore the public's trust by doing the exact opposite of what they want?) And Udgey never considers the possibility that maybe Widget wasn't actually showing the "true" emotions, and maybe in that moment Athena specially programmed it to say that Fulbright wasn't displaying emotions when he was...

I kind of don't like what they're doing with the finale trials in general in the recent GS games. The Jurist system was an incredibly lazy way to acquit Vera (and I guess they had one more to convict Kristoph?) and the emotions are just another way to bring down an "untouchable" villain. I thought they did it better than 4-4, but it was still poorly executed in the end and wasn't used as propaganda
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Plus, what part of the Phantom made you think he was smart?

This pretty much seals the deal for me. "I'm going to go to court with some fake fingerprint data and risk blowing my cover even though I could just as easily pretend I had nothing to do with the case other than being the detective here."

Seriously, if it wasn't for those forged fingerprints, he wouldn't be suspected at all. The case would lead nowhere if Phoenix couldn't find some excuse to inspect the lighter up close and find out it was a gun. At that point, they had nothing to indict Foolbright with. It'd then leave Athena as the only suspect, leading to Blackquill pleading guilty on her part, and thus help him accomplish all his intended goals.

Now, if he had simply announced that they were Clay's fingerprints in the first place, suspicion would land on Clay, who was dead. More investigation would need to go into the Phantom's identity, but the police would be chasing the wrong ends, and Foolbright could easily lead it even further off. It'd give Apollo a good reason to investigate the following case because it's Clay who'd be suspected. (Heck, maybe even give Pearls a role at one point by having her summon his spirit directly.) Lots of possibilities for this to play out without the cheap cop-out (pun intended).

By the time he was found out, there's no point to justifying his character. He's just a douche.

As to why Athena hadn't noticed anything at all before then, why would she need to? At this age, she clearly needs to hone in her hearing to pick up on slight changes in a person's tone of voice, so it's not a reflex. And if she doesn't have any reason to suspect him, then he's in the clear all the same.

Blackquill may have been rather suspicious of Foolbright, but he'd have nothing at all if it wasn't for his and Athena's odd bait-and-switch tactic. Even if it wasn't under the ruling of a jury, some level of suspicion can justify further investigation. He wouldn't be indicted right then and there, but he'd also have less room to maneuver or forge evidence.

But whatever. Still one of the best breakdowns I've ever seen, and I am sticking by that opinion.
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I think it still boils down to what Thane said earlier, that the Phantom is extremely unsatisfying to bust because he's not a proper character. The final hour of Dual Destinies felt like one big cop-out to me. I think Dual Destinies had some of the best plot setups in the franchise but it has a weak way of following up on its premise and the resolution is the worst I've seen in the entire series.

All the details about inconsistencies in fulbright's actions before the final twist are just icing on the cake. In the end it still comes down to the fact that there was just a hamfisted anf unpersonal motive behind everything that started the plot of the game and especially that the culprit is not memorable because he isn't a proper character. The Phantom himself has nothing to do with the Dark Age of the Law either, and I don't see why Blackquill's arrest caused anything different than what the arrest of Kristoph or Von Karma did, not to mention Phoenix' disbarment.
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Hmm the more I read the more I do wonder what the hell he was thinking about in bringing that lighter to court. :ron:
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He was thinking that he had to end the case on a major cliffhanger
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JesusMonroe wrote:
He was thinking that he had to end the case on a major cliffhanger


I'm not trying to sound pretentious when I say this - I fully expect a lot of people thought the same thing - but that didn't surprise me at all. Considering how Athena's role in the game up till that point, I had fully expected her to be accused sooner or later, although I will concede that it happened more suddenly than I had imagined. The same holds true for the so-called villain, although really, calling him that is giving him too much credit.

The Phantom not faking his emotions still doesn't make sense since he's fully aware of Athena's powers, and he's been shown to do that effortlessly, being able to trigger even multiple conflicting emotions at once on a moment's notice. And Athena has been listening in to practically everybody she has ever talked to; the fact that she hadn't heard anything beforehand is a stupid plothole. She even states that she can hear what Phoenix is feeling (god that sentence would make no sense without context, and it still barely does) in the first case when they're cross-examining Juniper.

Also, I'm fully aware the Judge allowed the Mood Matrix nonsense to take place, but that's just stupid. Imagine being a spectator for that case: the seemingly cheerful police officer is being barraged by questions from a clearly desperate defense lawyer, then all of a sudden they take out a device that can supposedly read someone's emotions, and only the accused can operate it. All of this happens during a time where practically everyone forges evidence because hey, screw logic, and after a while the supposed culprit is captured. Now I don't know about you, but that'd make me mighty suspicious.

Also, do you like this case more than 4-4? How come? I love that case, while 5-5 is an eldritch abomination worthy of being a C'thulhu afternoon snack.
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Thane wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
He was thinking that he had to end the case on a major cliffhanger


I'm not trying to sound pretentious when I say this - I fully expect a lot of people thought the same thing - but that didn't surprise me at all. Considering how Athena's role in the game up till that point, I had fully expected her to be accused sooner or later, although I will concede that it happened more suddenly than I had imagined. The same holds true for the so-called villain, although really, calling him that is giving him too much credit.

The Phantom not faking his emotions still doesn't make sense since he's fully aware of Athena's powers, and he's been shown to do that effortlessly, being able to trigger even multiple conflicting emotions at once on a moment's notice. And Athena has been listening in to practically everybody she has ever talked to; the fact that she hadn't heard anything beforehand is a stupid plothole. She even states that she can hear what Phoenix is feeling (god that sentence would make no sense without context, and it still barely does) in the first case when they're cross-examining Juniper.

Also, I'm fully aware the Judge allowed the Mood Matrix nonsense to take place, but that's just stupid. Imagine being a spectator for that case: the seemingly cheerful police officer is being barraged by questions from a clearly desperate defense lawyer, then all of a sudden they take out a device that can supposedly read someone's emotions, and only the accused can operate it. All of this happens during a time where practically everyone forges evidence because hey, screw logic, and after a while the supposed culprit is captured. Now I don't know about you, but that'd make me mighty suspicious.

Also, do you like this case more than 4-4? How come? I love that case, while 5-5 is an eldritch abomination worthy of being a C'thulhu afternoon snack.


It does come across as a particularly ham-fisted attempt to finger Athena as the culprit considering how abrupt it is.

As for the Phantom faking his emotions and Athena never clocking it once, I'd assumed she needs to engage her powers as such. She needs to focus in order to finely tune into emotions, which she will clearly do when talking to a suspect or a witness but officers of the law who are far from suspicion get a free pass.

Then again it all boils down to the fact we don't have a clue how her powers operate at all.

The use of the Mood Matrix in court comes across even worse when you consider it's the ACCUSED Desperate Defence Attorney who is giving evidence. It just looks ridiculous and likely to just make the papers talk about what a farce the trial was. Of course the last case has the excuse that "well hey, it's barely an official trial because of the circumstances" and of course the bizarre fact that Fulbright didn't just say "Hey this is stupid, I refuse to go through with this" that means it worked. :ron:
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Ugh, yes. I absolutely hated when she - the accused - just barged in and started accusing someone else. If they felt she was absolutely neccessary during that trial, she could at least have been her own lawyer like Phoenix was in case 1-2.
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On a little side note that's also one of the moments that just make me think they shouldn't have 3 playable lawyers in the next game. It's too jumbled and "all-over-the-place" and the accusation of Athena might've felt better if she had been the assistant for the whole game and if you only played as either Apollo or Phoenix so the chemistry and bond between the protagonist and assistant had been more consistent. I just didn't like how Athena was always either on your side or you were playing as her, and then suddently, "oh of all people!" she gets accused right before the final case.
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Pierre wrote:
of course the bizarre fact that Fulbright didn't just say "Hey this is stupid, I refuse to go through with this" that means it worked. :ron:

Well, even if he had done that, they would've just dragged him into court for Athena's official trial in the next day or so. So Fulbright could've just said that, but it would've just been delaying the inevitable.
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Thane wrote:
I'm not trying to sound pretentious when I say this - I fully expect a lot of people thought the same thing - but that didn't surprise me at all. Considering how Athena's role in the game up till that point, I had fully expected her to be accused sooner or later, although I will concede that it happened more suddenly than I had imagined. The same holds true for the so-called villain, although really, calling him that is giving him too much credit.

The Phantom not faking his emotions still doesn't make sense since he's fully aware of Athena's powers, and he's been shown to do that effortlessly, being able to trigger even multiple conflicting emotions at once on a moment's notice. And Athena has been listening in to practically everybody she has ever talked to; the fact that she hadn't heard anything beforehand is a stupid plothole. She even states that she can hear what Phoenix is feeling (god that sentence would make no sense without context, and it still barely does) in the first case when they're cross-examining Juniper.

Also, I'm fully aware the Judge allowed the Mood Matrix nonsense to take place, but that's just stupid. Imagine being a spectator for that case: the seemingly cheerful police officer is being barraged by questions from a clearly desperate defense lawyer, then all of a sudden they take out a device that can supposedly read someone's emotions, and only the accused can operate it. All of this happens during a time where practically everyone forges evidence because hey, screw logic, and after a while the supposed culprit is captured. Now I don't know about you, but that'd make me mighty suspicious.

Also, do you like this case more than 4-4? How come? I love that case, while 5-5 is an eldritch abomination worthy of being a C'thulhu afternoon snack.

It surprised me even less than it did for you. Before I played the game, I wanted to see a cutscene with Edgeworth in it and I ended up seeing the one where Phoenix and Edgeworth are in the ruined courtroom and the Judge yells, "Trial of Athena Cykes!" I thought them standing in a ruined courtroom was symbolism, though

He's not able to do it effortlessly. The first few times he tried it, he messed up and was really happy while crying, sad while angry, etc. That would've been more suspicious if he had constantly tried to fake emotions in front of her

Hey, I didn't say The Dark Age of the Law made sense. Maybe in the next game they'll address the fact that Kristoph and the Phantom's convictions weren't solid because they were used for illegitimate means I doubt it for the latter, though. I actually do expect that bloody ace to come back into play at some point, though

Though, as for Athena (the accused) being the one using the Mood Matrix on the culprit, it's not as fishy as it seems. Athena was already proven Not Guilty at that point (if you lose the trial, the Phantom goes free. That's it) and Fulbright was already proven to be the Phantom's accomplice

I do like it more than 4-4, though I won't trying to change your opinion on it. The only section of 4-4 I like is Phoenix's trial and the second investigation (which is the best investigation in the series IMO. I don't care what people say about the Mason System not making sense. I want it back. It was really fun). I loved learning the tragic backstory behind Troupe Gramarye and the way the piece of the puzzle slowly came together was amazing. I also have a black sheep opinion because I think Kristoph's motive was amazing (I hate it when people say it was because he lost poker. That's not the bigger picture). Kristoph was an amazing villain but the entire final trial fell flat. You present two pieces of evidence, Klavier and Kristoph talk, the game asks you if you want to win, and that's it. Takes no more than 20 minutes. Very underwhelming

I don't really *hate* any case in the series, though (and yes, I know that makes me sound like a fanboy). Every case has something I like in it. If I hate a case, it's in comparison to others in the series
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Bad Player wrote:
Pierre wrote:
of course the bizarre fact that Fulbright didn't just say "Hey this is stupid, I refuse to go through with this" that means it worked. :ron:

Well, even if he had done that, they would've just dragged him into court for Athena's official trial in the next day or so. So Fulbright could've just said that, but it would've just been delaying the inevitable.

There was really only two purposes of this "trial": (1) keep Aura happy so she won't start gutting hostages for parts, and (2) give Simon some clear indications that the detective he was always with was, in fact, a dirty, lying, good-for-nothing excuse of a human being. They never did have direct proof on him, though; never once was it said that the Mood Matrix was given as "proof". He just needed to make Foolbright look as suspicious as possible until they forced him to crack under pressure and later, get a legit confession out of him.

So, all in all, the TRIAL was an investigator's ploy and bait. It was a trap set up all along, and Edgeworth was simply overseeing the investigation as usual.

Now, guys, stop complaining about it not following procedures. The Phantom's inexplicable deficiencies are a different story altogether.
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Quote:
He just needed to make Foolbright look as suspicious as possible until they forced him to crack under pressure and later, get a legit confession out of him.


It's a valid point, though what scares me with this is that it made me think about an article I read about controversies in the Japanese legal system (for an essay for social studies where I compared it to the system in Ace Attorney) where the author amongst other thing mentioned that it relies heavily on confessions from the defendant although the interrogation security is bad so a lot of them might be forced out of the suspect/being made out of pure pressure. I'm not saying that was what happened to Phantom, but thinking about it troubled me a little because it still somewhat relies on a similar strategy... both the Mood Matrix and Percieving in court could be abused, theoretically. I don't know what I'm trying t say with this, it was just a side-track I came to think of. Seeya.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
Quote:
He just needed to make Foolbright look as suspicious as possible until they forced him to crack under pressure and later, get a legit confession out of him.


It's a valid point, though what scares me with this is that it made me think about an article I read about controversies in the Japanese legal system (for an essay for social studies where I compared it to the system in Ace Attorney) where the author amongst other thing mentioned that it relies heavily on confessions from the defendant although the interrogation security is bad so a lot of them might be forced out of the suspect/being made out of pure pressure. I'm not saying that was what happened to Phantom, but thinking about it troubled me a little because it still somewhat relies on a similar strategy... both the Mood Matrix and Percieving in court could be abused, theoretically. I don't know what I'm trying t say with this, it was just a side-track I came to think of. Seeya.


Simon Blackquill went to Metis Cykes to learn psychology so he could BULLY, MANIPULATE and PSYCHOLOGICALLY TRAP suspects into confessing (as he tries on Mayor Tenma I believe). Metis actually agrees to this. You should totally be troubled by how these things are abused. Plus false confessions do happen from time to time. For a long time in America, there was no standardised interrogation manual for police officers and suspects. A great deal of them thought it was ok to just "smack them around a little bit" in order to achieve a confession. There's some real horror stories if you go down that route.

Spoiler: Here's one of them
One man was actually convinced by Police that he had raped and murdered his mother, he'd done neither of those things and had actually been elsewhere that night.


Quote:
Well, even if he had done that, they would've just dragged him into court for Athena's official trial in the next day or so. So Fulbright could've just said that, but it would've just been delaying the inevitable.


Not quite, the Mood Matrix is based upon the witness cracking and admitting that the defence is right. Athena herself admits she doesn't rightly know how it works, the original creator is dead and apparently left nothing behind to explain it. It would only take the slightest moment of Fulbright lying "No...no that's not how I feel at all" and him actually sticking to his guns for Athena's ploy to get thrown out.

Though sure it's just debating over procedure, but it just bothers me.
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Pierre wrote:
Not quite, the Mood Matrix is based upon the witness cracking and admitting that the defence is right. Athena herself admits she doesn't rightly know how it works, the original creator is dead and apparently left nothing behind to explain it. It would only take the slightest moment of Fulbright lying "No...no that's not how I feel at all" and him actually sticking to his guns for Athena's ploy to get thrown out.

Though sure it's just debating over procedure, but it just bothers me.

I thought the Mood Matrix is just a visual representation. It doesn't *do* anything. Athena analyzes the emotions and inputs the data into the program.

The Phantom could've claimed he didn't fear the moon rock, but they already deduced blood was on it, which led to the deduction it was sent into space, yadayadayada. At the end of the day, it wasn't like the Mood Matrix was what brought the Phantom down. He was convicted with an irrefutable piece of evidence (unlike Kristoph). The Mood Matrix just led to a deduction (or induction if you don't see it as evidence), so it's no different from the way Apollo's bracelet is utilized. Except Simon doesn't try to stop Athena.
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Not quite, the Mood Matrix is based upon the witness cracking and admitting that the defence is right. Athena herself admits she doesn't rightly know how it works, the original creator is dead and apparently left nothing behind to explain it. It would only take the slightest moment of Fulbright lying "No...no that's not how I feel at all" and him actually sticking to his guns for Athena's ploy to get thrown out.

Though sure it's just debating over procedure, but it just bothers me.

I thought the Mood Matrix is just a visual representation. It doesn't *do* anything. Athena analyzes the emotions and inputs the data into the program.

The Phantom could've claimed he didn't fear the moon rock, but they already deduced blood was on it, which led to the deduction it was sent into space, yadayadayada. At the end of the day, it wasn't like the Mood Matrix was what brought the Phantom down. He was convicted with an irrefutable piece of evidence (unlike Kristoph). The Mood Matrix just led to a deduction (or induction if you don't see it as evidence), so it's no different from the way Apollo's bracelet is utilized. Except Simon doesn't try to stop Athena.


While "how does the Mood Matrix actually work" is a big question in itself, given the context it doesn't matter whether it's detecting it or it's Athena inputting information.

She's the accused saying "This guy is afraid ergo, guilty!" of someone else. No one can verify her statement or justify how she knows this. It's just accepted at face value.
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Gyakuten$aiban wrote:
Got something to point out about the worst ending of case 5.

I'll quote my post from GameFAQs on the matter:

Spoiler: Making the darkest ending even darker
It just says "Athena left the office" but...that wouldn't happen if that bad ending took place.

All Blackquill was on the stand for was the retrial of the UR-1 Incident but after that there was STILL the murder of Clay Terran, the murder which Athena was charged with in the previous case.

So if Blackquill's verdict remains unchanged, then they don't have the opportunity to identify the Phantom (as the possibility of a third party's presence only start to emerge as a result of breaking Blackquill's testimony and then the Thought Route that follows) and thus can't indict him for either murder (since the motive for killing Clay is directly linked to the murder of Metis).

Blackquill would be executed as planned but then Athena would end up being found guilty of murdering Clay, get put in prison, and probably sentenced to death herself. Aura would probably still vanish with the hostages too because, despite Athena being found guilty of murdering Clay, her brother still died so she had no reason to follow through with releasing the hostages.


Am I right on this or did I miss something? Please be nice if I missed a detail.

Clearly that's the idea.

She would have to leave the office if she was found guilty of bombing/terrorism and murder, and put on death row, right?

Mwahahaha! *cue thunder clap* :karma:
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Gyakuten$aiban wrote:
Got something to point out about the worst ending of case 5.

I'll quote my post from GameFAQs on the matter:

Spoiler: Making the darkest ending even darker
It just says "Athena left the office" but...that wouldn't happen if that bad ending took place.

All Blackquill was on the stand for was the retrial of the UR-1 Incident but after that there was STILL the murder of Clay Terran, the murder which Athena was charged with in the previous case.

So if Blackquill's verdict remains unchanged, then they don't have the opportunity to identify the Phantom (as the possibility of a third party's presence only start to emerge as a result of breaking Blackquill's testimony and then the Thought Route that follows) and thus can't indict him for either murder (since the motive for killing Clay is directly linked to the murder of Metis).

Blackquill would be executed as planned but then Athena would end up being found guilty of murdering Clay, get put in prison, and probably sentenced to death herself. Aura would probably still vanish with the hostages too because, despite Athena being found guilty of murdering Clay, her brother still died so she had no reason to follow through with releasing the hostages.


Am I right on this or did I miss something? Please be nice if I missed a detail.

I was wondering that myself...

Spoiler:
Also, it never says anything about Apollo. From what the story of the bad ending tells us, he stops smiling. So, what else? Does he go back to the office and still be a defense attorney? :apollo: Does he give up like Phoenix? :hobohodo: Does he decide to defend Athena? :shoe: If he does, is it possible for him to get the 'not guilty' verdict? :udgey: Does he go into a coma, become addicted to coffee, and turn into a prosecutor? :godot: Is he so sad about Clay's death that he *sob* commits suicide? :larry:

Questions that will never be answered.

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