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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
You're thinking about this the wrong way. It's not that Athena isn't a Sue because Polly doubted her. It's that Athena is a Sue because Polly reacted so strongly to the fact he doubted her :basil:

I...have never thought about it this way
Still don't think it makes her a Sue, though
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Spoiler: 2-4
Phoenix lost the trial, but he won the moral victory.


Anyway, some things to add to Athena to make her a Mary Sue.

- Her traumatic past defines who she is and how she acts. Every other character is immediately aware of it and are like "Oh that's so bad for you," and then immediately ignore it.
- She wins every case with no help.
- She wouldn't be cleaning the toilet at WAA
- Everybody talks about how awesome she is.
- Characters who don't like her are stupid.
- She is never wrong. Misbehaviour is praised.

We have never seen a character like this in Ace Attorney, and I think we won't be seeing anybody like that in the future. I have stated that her power not being explained is an issue, but that doesn't make her a Mary Sue.
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Bad Player wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Speaking of Apollo, have you heard of anyone ever doubting a Sue? Let's get rid of the "Apollo leaves the agency" and instead make Apollo Athena's perfect boyfriend!

You're thinking about this the wrong way. It's not that Athena isn't a Sue because Polly doubted her. It's that Athena is a Sue because Polly reacted so strongly to the fact he doubted her :basil:


Plus ultimately Apollo was wrong in his doubts completely and had to apologise and come around to her side in the end.


Quote:
Yes, that. It's true for all the AA protags, but it was still part of the list xP


If we're going by canonical mistakes, Phoenix learned not to rely so heavily on his Magatama in 2-4, arguably learned some extremely shaky moral lessons in 4-4.

Apollo also learned those lessons to an extent in his distrust of Phoenix after the betrayal in 4-1 and since we talked about it earlier what about that time Apollo had a hissy-fit and left Wright and Co eh? Sure was wrong about that, good thing Athena made him see sense.

Though granted Athena is new, she's not had much time to make big important mistakes.
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Pierre wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Speaking of Apollo, have you heard of anyone ever doubting a Sue? Let's get rid of the "Apollo leaves the agency" and instead make Apollo Athena's perfect boyfriend!

You're thinking about this the wrong way. It's not that Athena isn't a Sue because Polly doubted her. It's that Athena is a Sue because Polly reacted so strongly to the fact he doubted her :basil:


Plus ultimately Apollo was wrong in his doubts completely and had to apologise and come around to her side in the end.


I'm lost.

Is it because of Apollo's reaction after Phoenix cleared up the doubts Apollo had about Athena?
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Nearavex wrote:
Also, when will people learn that 2-4 is merely an exception to the rule?

Err... Just to make this clear, I wasn't trying to refute your point with this or anything; I was simply pointing out a technicality.
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MBr wrote:
I'm lost.

Is it because of Apollo's reaction after Phoenix cleared up the doubts Apollo had about Athena?

I think BP is saying that if Athena wasn't a Sue, Apollo would pursue his doubts about Athena and go against Phoenix, but it wouldn't tear him up as much inside as it did. I don't think it's a big deal, because he clearly trusts people too much anyways (his boss and every single client of his in GS4 committed some crime) and he had already worked with Athena on three cases at this point (Phoenix worked on three with Maya before she left the office and he fell into a depression), so I can see it playing out the way it did
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I didn't like Athena right away but I came to like her character in the end
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JesusMonroe wrote:
MBr wrote:
I'm lost.

Is it because of Apollo's reaction after Phoenix cleared up the doubts Apollo had about Athena?

I think BP is saying that if Athena wasn't a Sue, Apollo would pursue his doubts about Athena and go against Phoenix, but it wouldn't tear him up as much inside as it did. I don't think it's a big deal, because he clearly trusts people too much anyways (his boss and every single client of his in GS4 committed some crime) and he had already worked with Athena on three cases at this point (Phoenix worked on three with Maya before she left the office and he fell into a depression), so I can see it playing out the way it did

This is the one instance where the "everybody loves Athena" problem really bothered me. Apollo had doubts about Athena. He's gone off to investigate on his own and bursts into court, opposing Phoenix. It looks like he's going to argue with Phoenix for a while and then... he just sort of... gives up and everybody is happy. He's actively trying to trust the person who was arrested for the murder of his best friend. A person who acted suspiciously in the investigation of said murder.
As for Phoenix and Maya's relationship, don't forget that they were much closer in those three cases than Apollo and Athena in their first three cases. Phoenix first met Maya in Turnabout Sisters, when she has just discovered her sister's dead body. Phoenix took her case despite her refusing at first, and successfully defended her whe nobody else believed her innocence.
In Apollo and Athena's first meeting, Athena throws a police officer on him. Apollo and Athena do work together, but they don't share a strong emotional connection like Phoenix and Maya.
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OrderOfTheNick wrote:
This is the one instance where the "everybody loves Athena" problem really bothered me. Apollo had doubts about Athena. He's gone off to investigate on his own and bursts into court, opposing Phoenix. It looks like he's going to argue with Phoenix for a while and then... he just sort of... gives up and everybody is happy. He's actively trying to trust the person who was arrested for the murder of his best friend. A person who acted suspiciously in the investigation of said murder.
As for Phoenix and Maya's relationship, don't forget that they were much closer in those three cases than Apollo and Athena in their first three cases. Phoenix first met Maya in Turnabout Sisters, when she has just discovered her sister's dead body. Phoenix took her case despite her refusing at first, and successfully defended her whe nobody else believed her innocence.
In Apollo and Athena's first meeting, Athena throws a police officer on him. Apollo and Athena do work together, but they don't share a strong emotional connection like Phoenix and Maya.

Of course they weren't as close, though

Hypothetically, let's say that Larry is killed in Case 5 of PW. While investigating with Maya, Maya says, "Wow, Nick! I've never seen a knife like this before!" BAM! Psyche-locks appear all around her (ignore the fact that Phoenix shouldn't have the magatama at this point). How would Phoenix react later in the case if Maya was accused of murder? He'd deny it and defend her for what he's worth

How did Apollo react? He objected when Athena was about to get acquitted and accused her of murder, and then presents his argument. Sure, he recants his argument later, but that's when Phoenix plants of seed doubt with the theory about the alternate escape route

It could have nothing to do with Athena, though. Phoenix and Apollo are very different characters at this point
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Oh, hi thread. We meet again.

Quote:
In Apollo and Athena's first meeting, Athena throws a police officer on him. Apollo and Athena do work together, but they don't share a strong emotional connection like Phoenix and Maya.

Why are people still comparing those two with Phoenix and Maya? The latter two were introduced in the same game and stayed with each other for three tightly knit years. Apollo barely met Athena in this game. It's more similar to how Phoenix responds to Pearl and her fantasies when they first met.

And those two were always different characters. It just took another game for people to get it.

And guys, remember how Apollo reacted when he found out about Trucy's staged "kidnapping"? I say he's more like Feenie than the rookie Phoenix, only still single and completely oblivious.
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I agree that people need to stop comparing Apollo and Athena to Phoenix and Maya because they whole dynamic between the two pairs is completely different not least because the latter pair bonded almost immediately under excruciating circumstances. They also benefit from having fairly similar temperaments as well as lacking a professional relationship, which is the exact opposite of Polly and Thena.

Apollo and Phoenix are very different men. He would like to have that faith Phoenix has but he just doesn't have it... and there is nothing wrong with that. Athena hasn't really done anything to warrant an unshakable faith from Apollo, so she didn't get it. They worked together but they haven't bonded.

None of this really answers the ever present question of whether Athena is a Sue or not. Sadly, it is hard to judge from this game as her entire back story was hurled out and presented for all and sundry to see. At the moment this is the thing that defies her the most. She has a character but it isn't anything we haven't seen before in every single Maya-clone there has ever been. We will need to see her in a another game, one that isn't so heavily centred around her before we can fairly judge her.
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By 5-4, Athena had been Apollo's coworker for eight months, and they got along pretty well. It's natural that he didn't want to believe that a friend had killed his BFF.
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@Pierre, regarding your cyborg theory

With that theory, were you thinking that Athena knew she was a cyborg all along or truly thought she was human? Sorry, random question
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JesusMonroe wrote:
@Pierre, regarding your cyborg theory

With that theory, were you thinking that Athena knew she was a cyborg all along or truly thought she was human? Sorry, random question


Oh she thinks she's human, that's why she tried to fix her mother the same way she'd always been 'fixed'.
Of course in the upgrade period between her mother's murder and her reintroduction into society, they'd have fixed any anomalies in her definition of 'human' to avoid any obvious problems. After all a good lawyer needs to have some basic understanding of the human body when dealing with Murder victims and the like.
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Who would be "they"?
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Nearavex wrote:
Who would be "they"?


The Government/her benefactors, whoever pays the bill when they had her redesigned to be an adult.
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Yeah, expect who would that be and why would they need a robot like this? Especially if she doesn't seem to be helping 'then', but just operates on her own? :sahwit:
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Nearavex wrote:
Yeah, expect who would that be and why would they need a robot like this? Especially if she doesn't seem to be helping 'then', but just operates on her own? :sahwit:


Hey man the answers are all a few pages back when I set it out originally. I don't think either of us want to retread this old ground. I didn't restart the debate I just answered a question. Its just a fun fan theory at the end of the day.
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Athena has the potential to be a great defense lawyer all she needs is some experience once she has that she's good to go
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Pierre wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Who would be "they"?


The Government/her benefactors, whoever pays the bill when they had her redesigned to be an adult.

"'Cause screw puberty. We need her to be hot right now!"

Nearavex wrote:
Yeah, expect who would that be and why would they need a robot like this? Especially if she doesn't seem to be helping 'then', but just operates on her own? :sahwit:

Do you not understand how mind-blowing the idea of a self-operating cyborg is? This is meant to be set at a time in the near future, and it's just about the right year to expect tech on that level. The fridge logic that goes into this theory is brilliant!

But seriously, unless you wish to expand on this theory, there's very little benefit to debating it. If it's the former, though, I'm always up to inspire ideas.
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MBr wrote:
Spoiler: 2-4
Phoenix lost the trial, but he won the moral victory.


Anyway, some things to add to Athena to make her a Mary Sue.

- Her traumatic past defines who she is and how she acts. Every other character is immediately aware of it and are like "Oh that's so bad for you," and then immediately ignore it.
- She wins every case with no help.
- She wouldn't be cleaning the toilet at WAA
- Everybody talks about how awesome she is.
- Characters who don't like her are stupid.
- She is never wrong. Misbehaviour is praised.

We have never seen a character like this in Ace Attorney, and I think we won't be seeing anybody like that in the future. I have stated that her power not being explained is an issue, but that doesn't make her a Mary Sue.



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Just a bit of trivia: Athena is based on Takumi's other character in the NDS game Ghost Trick
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BadLuckExpert wrote:
Just a bit of trivia: Athena is based on Takumi's other character in the NDS game Ghost Trick


Oh actually? I mean I'd always suspected what with the matching colour schemes and outgoing attitude but I didn't realise Takumi had confirmed that anywhere.
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I usually mistake Lynne for Athena... anyway, Takumi didn't have a hand in Dual Destinies, did he?
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I don't think they did, and if you look at the concept drawings for Athena she didn't really look too much like Lynne at the beginning...

Buuuuuuuut since this thread has been semi-revived, relevant. (Obviously not definitive, but I think authoritative.)
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Ironically, I actually find it refreshing we've gotten back to talking about this. I do respect that we've largely forgotten about it, and it was made in good judgment, so I'm not complaining.

That said, I really don't see how that link you provided is that relevant, BP. Athena Cykes is no Mary Sue, by any definition. :3
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Bad Player wrote:
Buuuuuuuut since this thread has been semi-revived, relevant. (Obviously not definitive, but I think authoritative.)

So if I understand this correctly, Yahtzee is saying that a Mary Sue archetype can work for a video game protagonist because:
1. Since the player is controlling the protagonist, (s)he acts as an audience surrogate rather than an author surrogate, and
2. Unless the player is perfect, the protagonist can and will make mistakes along the way.

However, this can't apply to Athena because:
1. Athena can only work as an audience surrogate in Turnabout Academy, the only case she is in the active role of protagonist.
2. All three protagonists are pre-defined characters due to the nature of the game.
3. The drop in difficulty makes the player less likely to screw up.
4. It's debatable whether wrong answers in the Ace Attorney series canonically happened.

I'm not saying Athena is a Mary Sue, I'm saying that if she was, the structure of the game makes it very unlikely for her to successfully be an audience surrogate.
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I realize my previous post doesn't say enough, so thanks for elaborating further, sumguy.

This thread never had the question whether or not a Mary Sue is good or bad, though. It wasn't even about whether or not Athena is a Sue of some sort. The fact remains that she comes off as thus because the plot ended up circulating too much around her, but as I've said before, that's a separate issue from the one plaguing her character.

She's just too gimmicky and doesn't stand out on her own without some tie-in to the plot. Hence why things end up so that she HAS to be the center of attention. The only one who deserves to cling to Blackquill is Taka, and he does it on his shoulder.
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This thread....this thread never changes /falloutvoice.

All of the above only applies if we go by Yahtzee's speculations. Also being labelled "Mary Sue" isn't what makes her unlikeable. Anytime Athena is NOT playable all her Sue traits would still be there, it just means that she's not capable of making player-controlled mistakes.

Also bear in mind this series is a visual novel, the player will spend a lot more time without control. That's plenty of time for Athena to be "on-the-nose" and right in her suspicions and trusts about people and be "the most special snowflake". Additionally since mistakes in AA are impossible to claim as canon or uncanon it's entirely possible she still retains her perfect status. It's entirely possible she doesn't but it's not a matter worth debating about as every player's experience will be different there with no absolute answer.

"Mary" or "Gary" Sue is a matter of opinion at the end of the day. There's no hard and fast rules for it, only a general vague set of terms. Even in that article Yahtzee isn't trying to define "Sue" he's trying to argue whether it's acceptable for the unique form of media of Video Game Protagonist due to a player's ability to make mistakes.
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I never really thought Athena was definitely totally 100% completely totally a Mary Sue; I only used that term because it was much easier to write "Mary Sue" than something like...
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
The plot ended up circulating too much around her, but as I've said before, that's a separate issue from the one plaguing her character. She's just too gimmicky and doesn't stand out on her own without some tie-in to the plot. Hence why things end up so that she HAS to be the center of attention. The only one who deserves to cling to Blackquill is Taka, and he does it on his shoulder.

that every single time I wanted to refer to what was wrong with her.

And that got construed as me simply saying that Athena was a Mary Sue, and so the argument simply became about whether Athena was a Mary Sue (with people picking definitions that kind of pre-empted their answer), rather than actually addressing the issues with Athena.

But if they all wanted to debate Athena through the lens of "Mary Sue," so be it. The issue was that there is no true definition of Mary Sue, but if we're going to have a Mary Sue discussion, I think that Yahtzee article at least gives us a neutral, authoritative base to work from.

Key quotes:
Quote:
In truth, what marks the Mary Sue is that the world revolves around them. They might not necessarily be universally loved, but they universally provoke a strong reaction. . . . There will be very few people in the world who are indifferent and don't really give a toss about them either way.

(This is a response to the "Athena can't be a Sue! There were characters that hate her!" argument.)
Quote:
[T]he other hallmark of the Mary Sue is that they must be a tragic figure that demands sympathy, but are never flawed or impeded by their tragedy in any way.

(I still maintain that Athena's trauma wasn't a true flaw, considering it happens a whopping two times in the entire game, each time lasts a minute, and outside of those two instances there's absolutely no effect on Athena.)


...And what the hay, for the sake of thoroughness:
sumguy28 wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, Yahtzee is saying that a Mary Sue archetype can work for a video game protagonist because:
1. Since the player is controlling the protagonist, (s)he acts as an audience surrogate rather than an author surrogate, and
2. Unless the player is perfect, the protagonist can and will make mistakes along the way.

However, this can't apply to Athena because:
1. Athena can only work as an audience surrogate in Turnabout Academy, the only case she is in the active role of protagonist.
2. All three protagonists are pre-defined characters due to the nature of the game.
3. The drop in difficulty makes the player less likely to screw up.
4. It's debatable whether wrong answers in the Ace Attorney series canonically happened.

I was referring to the article more for his definition of Mary Sues than his conclusions about him (see above), especially since he's talking about The Witcher 3, which is incredibly different from Ace Attorney, but if I was going to apply his arguments, I'd actually put it like:

A Mary Sue character is forgivable as a video game protagonist, as opposed to those from other forms of media, because unless the player is perfect, the protagonist can and will make mistakes along the way, naturally adding in "flaws" to the supposed Sue.

However, this can't apply to Athena because:
1. All three protagonists are pre-defined characters due to the nature of the game.
2. The drop in difficulty makes the player less likely to screw up.
3. It's debatable whether wrong answers in the Ace Attorney series canonically happened.

Therefore, even though she's a video game protagonist, Athena is closer to the 'unforgivable' Mary Sues of traditional media than the 'forgivable' Mary Sues of video games.
(Of course, the conclusion is taking for granted that Athena is a Sue, but you could also say something like "No matter where on the Sue-ness factor she falls, the 'type' of Sue she's closer to is...")
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Is Athena = Mary Sue a meme? I honestly don't know how people can see her as a perfect being. She's loud, annoying, noisy, often talk without thinking and reeeeaaallyy made me doubt how she got her badge. Even in court she sucked more than Apollo. I don't know if it's because of the writing in DD but Athena basically just winged her case the entire time. There's no background-fade-to-black-signifying-clarity-of-the-truth moment in her actions like Phoenix always do in most of his cases back then. She basically just defend her client without any clear picture of how the case went out.
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I think that was more of a game thing, because it also happens in the rest of the cases. I liked not discovering the truth until the end, actually.

But anyway, onto Athena, I don't think everything was about her until the last case. Before, she was just there doing the standard assistant/playable character stuff. She just happens to combine a huge amount of screentime (more than anyone in the game) with an inborn ability to be the center of attention, so it looks like everything is about her when it actually isn't.
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I was focusing more on the fact that Athena only takes the case because of her personal feeling. Like she only accepted Juniper as innocent because of childhood-friend thing, not an ounce of investigations before making her decision. Now I know that Phoenix did the same with Larry but at least they kept in touch over the years so Phoenix actually knows what kind of person Larry is now while Athena has no idea what Juniper has turned into. Even Phoenix checked his future clients using magatama first before absolutely sure they're innocent.
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Objection!

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Concerning everyone saying that Athena is young to be a defense attorney...

Is the process for becoming a prosecutor any longer or shorter than a defense attorney?

I've heard it from somewhere, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true.

If it takes longer to become one or the other than it would either support that fact that Athena's character is flawed or do the exact opposite.

I'm from Canada, so the Court of Law might be different here, I honestly don't know.
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sosgirl10 wrote:
Is the process for becoming a prosecutor any longer or shorter than a defense attorney?

I've read that, in Japan at least, becoming a prosecutor takes longer than becoming a lawyer, but I can't find the source.
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I know for certain that it's more difficult to become instated as a prosecutor, but I don't remember exactly what made the exams so much harder. It's not just a matter of the content, I'd think.

In any case, becoming a defense attorney is a pretty simple process in Japan. A law degree is required, of course, as well as a proficiency test before official instatement. I can't think of what else from the top of my head, but there isn't much else. The main reason not that many DAs are in Japan is because the job ain't as profitable as a prosecutor's.
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Jozerick wrote:
sosgirl10 wrote:
Is the process for becoming a prosecutor any longer or shorter than a defense attorney?

I've read that, in Japan at least, becoming a prosecutor takes longer than becoming a lawyer, but I can't find the source.

The moment you pass the bar (= bar exam, one year of practical training, final bar exam), you can become a defense attorney by registering yourself as one at the right places. To become a prosecutor, you 'simply' need to hired as one by the Ministry of Justice, and the selection process/interviews for that are held around the same time as the final bar exams, so ideally, it shouldn't matter time-wise hether you become a prosecutor or a defense attorney. It's basically the same.

(It does take a lot longer to become a prosecutor if you take the government worker -> assistant prosecutor -> prosecutor route though)
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Ah, this thread brings back memories.
I feel like her character, seeing it now when we have two games with her present, is kinda all over the place. In GS5 I got a little Athena-overload with how she's in every case, mostly as the assistant, while not really having the chance of going anywhere as the lawyer, save for one case. She does feel forced into the main-main character gallery. When GS6 came around I assumed that it was mostly the way her character was smashed into the inner circle that bothered me and that I liked her better in GS6 because I had gotten used to her being a thing, but having just played GS5 she was pretty annoying. I mean, she had her funny moments, and she could be really kind and empathetic when she wanted to be. But for the most part she was acting like a wind-up toy, always on, and it made it feel like she was taking up all the oxygen in the room, exhausting.
I thought she was many times better as a playable character than as an assistant in GS5 (I didn't really have a preference in GS6). Maybe if the balance between playable and assistant had been more even I'd feel different, but I'll never know. I liked her inner monologue and narration because I thought it felt very genuine, especially compared to ho she acts when you only see her from the outside, which in contrast feels very forced. And I actually liked that contrast because it made it feel like her behaviour was forced to a large extent and that it was her way of coping. Her inscurity and resulting "shutdowns" and anxiety were really well done and felt realistic, the detail that Widget goes black is great, and that her arms go up in some fight/defense (no stupid joke intended) pose when it happens in the courtroom.
My feelings toards her improved in case 5-5 because it made her feel a bit more rounded as a character. For a while she actually believes she has killed her mother and wheni it's "proven" in court she has come to accept it as a fact even if it hurts. As Phoenix says, she is really brave for facing her past head-on, regardless of how much it scares her. Also this case involves my absolute favourite Athena-moment, even if it's only something we're told: when Starbuck tells us that as he was coming out of the detention center recently declared innocent just as Athena was going in as the new murder suspect, and she flashes a peace sign at him and congratulates him on his victory, smiling and with eyes red and swollen from crying.
In general, I very much preferred her in GS6, even though it becomes a bit weird when she's the brand new deal and center focus of most of GS5, and then in this game takes more or less a backseat role. With the game being what it is, I wouldn't really want her to have a bigger role because there wasn't really a place for that, still she once again misses out on an opportunity to really grow as a lawyer - 5-3 was like "Okay, I'm a newbie but I'll try lawyering" and 6-4 was like "Okay, now I'm almost ready to be lawyering for real". But as a character, I actually really liked her and her and Apollo's dynamics as investigation partners were great, perhaps partly because they are now more equal in terms of experience. Their different attitudes and personalities clashed in a way that was entertaining and worked better than i GS5. And she felt more relaxed and authentic, I can't really tell whether it's because of better writing or because she has started to be able to overcome her trauma or because she simply has matured during the year that passed, or a combination of these factors. If there's a GS7 (although I personally don't hope so), I hope she will finally get the chance to even more come into her own and stand on her own two feet, Miz Chickadee.
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While her backstory was rehashed material,she was an alright assistant. Very fun in 5-3 ,6-2 and 6-4, and the part where she happily cries in 5-5 is quite a nice moment.
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