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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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No, see, having Hugh scream like that was important to show the audience the power of FRIENDSHIP. Anguished, poorly acted cries is what FRIENDSHIP is all about.

@Nearavex The thing is, you're not making "basic assumptions". Far from it, in fact, since you're filling in blanks of what is the driving plot of 5-5. Look, I know I've made my distaste of 5-5 clear multiple times - and just for good measure I'll once again declare it to be the single worst case in the Ace Attorney franchise - but we're not shown ANYTHING important about Simon and Athena's relationship. Unlike Edgeworth and his father's relationship, this is really the core of the case, and it's Simon's entire motivation. Surely you must agree that it would've been wise to have spent more time showing us what they meant to each other? Like linkenski said, just a decent cutscene would've helped quite a bit.
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I thought I also agreed on that matter, that I too, would like cutscenes or flashbacks images and more description of their relationship at the time Athena mentioned Simon in the detention center.

There were many things that could be so better executed, I think that often myself, really - especially the cutscenes.
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Nearavex wrote:
I honestly don't see the point in the snark here. It's like Rubia said, there are some basic assumptions that enrich the universe. Athena and Simon's past relationship; Magatama being generally Fey domain; even Gregory's and Miles's interaction - which was never even told about, let alone shown; Miles's time with Franziska in Germany; Mia/Diego relationship; Dahlia and Iris during their time in Kurain village - I could go on.

Saying Simon covering for Athena is unrealistic, is well... it's on par with having problems with Miles's tragedy - we never had a proof of Miles's and Gregory's relationship during the time Gregory lived. How can he care about Gregory so much? Is it a flaw in the story?
But it's his emotions and actions that are proof. We know literally nothing about Gregory, aside from him being a good lawyer and Edgeworth's father, and yet, we somehow just know he was a good father to Miles. How?

These are things that naturally fit in, but these things can't involve major reveals or OCs, for that matter. Are you going to claim you see no difference? Because I honestly feel it's like I said - that this theory isn't even a theory, it's like trying to forcefully shove in your own opinion into canon information, because unlike "filling the blanks", it is really nowhere as subtle.

There is a difference. In DD, Blackquill and Athena's relationship is the driving force behind the entire game, since that's what causes Blackquill to sacrifice himself for her, and... everything else goes from there. Moreover, we're shown literally nothing--everything about their (past) relationship is merely told.

The other things you bring up are either not that important to the story, or were shown to some extent. For instance, Miles and Gregory. First, it doesn't really matter if Gregory is an amazing father or not. As long as he wasn't a terrible and abusive parent, losing a father is going to be a tragedy--especially if he's the only parent (since Edgey's mom was apparently out of the picture already). Second, we're shown how much Edgey loves and respects his father when they flashback to the class trial. (So regardless of how Gregory actually is, we still see how Edgey thinks of him.)

The magatama thing is just about game mechanics, not story. It doesn't really change much.

Edgey and Franzy's interactions in Germany don't really matter. I mean, I guess it's sorta the reason that Franzy came over, but... that's less a "plot" and more just a "character." Plus the game shows us how petty and childish is during 2-2 and 2-3, and then the scene at the end of 2-4 cinches up her character. Even if it doesn't show us their actual relationship, it still shows us her character.

We get an entire case of Mia and Diego--even if it isn't romantic.

Dahlia and Iris in Kurain doesn't really matter either. Dahlia is a jerk, Iris is nice. That's the important bit, it's what we see in the games, and how they were in Kurain doesn't really matter.

(Meanwhile, Blackquill cared about Athena so much that he threw his life away for her--and yet we're shown nothing of their relationship. Yes, they interact plenty in the present, but they've both changed a ton from 8 years ago.)
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Thane wrote:
Nah, I don't think an assistant should actually murder someone, not even by accident. Kay, however, could likely be charged with something else.

About Athena, they kept stating she had a strong desire to win cases...but so does Phoenix and Apollo; after all, they want to defend their innocent clients. If anything, Athena should've been trying to work on saving Simon from day one, and they should've shared a LOT more time on screen for the last case to have any impact. As it is, she's written like a fanfic character: a young woman comes blazing into the agency and becomes the center of attention without trying. And she's just so special, u guise.

There is a difference. I thought Athena was going to be like one of those prosecutors protecting their win record. She doesn't want the truth. She wants to win. She would lose a case, then learn from it. This could've been interesting, I think.
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Bad Player wrote:
The magatama thing is just about game mechanics, not story. It doesn't really change much.

And this is why the cross-examination mechanic to this day is the best mechanic. It integrates gameplay AND story. When Psyche-locks were first introduced, I hoped they would be able to further explore into Nick's character and his use of the Magatama. Instead, all we got was locks and secrets everywhere and more trouble to get through to people. 2-4's instance of foreshadowing was merely a ploy to introduce how unreliable it was. Pearl got way more out of it than Nick did, and she was merely following him around.

I could continue on a rant about the others, but I'll stop here.

And if we're going into the territory of how their relationship drives the story, stop. It drives Athena's story, not the story of the others. Yes, there's a difference because she's not the only character who's hogging the spotlight.

OrderOfTheNick wrote:
Thane wrote:
Nah, I don't think an assistant should actually murder someone, not even by accident. Kay, however, could likely be charged with something else.

About Athena, they kept stating she had a strong desire to win cases...but so does Phoenix and Apollo; after all, they want to defend their innocent clients. If anything, Athena should've been trying to work on saving Simon from day one, and they should've shared a LOT more time on screen for the last case to have any impact. As it is, she's written like a fanfic character: a young woman comes blazing into the agency and becomes the center of attention without trying. And she's just so special, u guise.

There is a difference. I thought Athena was going to be like one of those prosecutors protecting their win record. She doesn't want the truth. She wants to win. She would lose a case, then learn from it. This could've been interesting, I think.

We already have Franziska.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
OrderOfTheNick wrote:
Thane wrote:
Nah, I don't think an assistant should actually murder someone, not even by accident. Kay, however, could likely be charged with something else.

About Athena, they kept stating she had a strong desire to win cases...but so does Phoenix and Apollo; after all, they want to defend their innocent clients. If anything, Athena should've been trying to work on saving Simon from day one, and they should've shared a LOT more time on screen for the last case to have any impact. As it is, she's written like a fanfic character: a young woman comes blazing into the agency and becomes the center of attention without trying. And she's just so special, u guise.

There is a difference. I thought Athena was going to be like one of those prosecutors protecting their win record. She doesn't want the truth. She wants to win. She would lose a case, then learn from it. This could've been interesting, I think.

We already have Franziska.

Except Franziska is not a playable character. Or a defense attorney.
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The only thing she would learn would be "oh, I was wrong". Don't give us such a disappointing story, please.

Athena, while determined to win, is not corrupt. Her very response to Means's philosophy was clear enough: It was her own stance that the end does not justify the means and that victory can be only obtained by exposing the truth.


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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
And this is why the cross-examination mechanic to this day is the best mechanic. It integrates gameplay AND story. When Psyche-locks were first introduced, I hoped they would be able to further explore into Nick's character and his use of the Magatama. Instead, all we got was locks and secrets everywhere and more trouble to get through to people. 2-4's instance of foreshadowing was merely a ploy to introduce how unreliable it was. Pearl got way more out of it than Nick did, and she was merely following him around.

I always thought the magatama was weird because Nick doesn't need it. In the DLC, he sees that Deplume has psyche-locks and then the magatama loses power. When it regains power, he just asks questions like usual. He could've done that without it. The only times he really needs it are when he thinks to himself, "Hm...she still has a psyche-lock. She must still be hiding something"
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Psyche-Locks were actually meant as a visualization of him asking questions as usual.

GS1 investigation gameplay works pretty much the same, even without Psyche-Locks.
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Nearavex wrote:
Psyche-Locks were actually meant as a visualization of him asking questions as usual.

GS1 investigation gameplay works pretty much the same, even without Psyche-Locks.

There's even a section in 4-3 that works like a Psyche-Lock sequence.
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Percieve was basically just a differnt form of Psyche lock. There are multiple times where you had to find the nervous tic and then show some evidence to make the witness spill his/her beans.
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I don't want to invade the Athena fanclub thread, but I just can't not respond...
MBr wrote:
It's kind of hard to explain, but Mary Sues are characters that are always right, liked by every other character, have a one of a kind power or item that isn't explained, are never punished for bad actions (and are even praised for them), have a trauma that goes away easily and is used to make the reader pity them, and can do everything by themselves.

Those things are exactly Athena, except for the last one. (And no, being disliked by the killers and Aura doesn't count.)
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Did MBR say that just to explain what one was or did they not realise how much their description fits Athena?
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...Both, maybe? :ron:
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Drat, and here I thought another debate started
BP are you secretly stalking the Athena fanclub behind people's backs
I don't have much else to add except for one little thing I've been meaning to mention. Sometimes the differences between a shojo heroine and a Mary Sue are very small. The main difference, though, is that they take different roles; one has a story revolve around her because it's her story and perspective, and the other has a story revolve around her even though it's not hers.

The problem is presentation. If the viewers don't think a story is about her, then she becomes a Mary Sue. Likewise, vice versa is also technically just as valid.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
BP are you secretly stalking the Athena fanclub behind people's backs

...Maybe.
I have to make sure to add everyone who posts there to... the list. :viola:


Also I'm not sure I'd really agree with that. Don't stories usually revolve around the Mary Sue, too?
(I also don't do shojo at all~)
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(I prefer shonen myself primarily because a lot of shojo tend to discuss romance subplots more often than shonen titles do. There are exceptions, obviously.)

In those cases, I question whether or not the Mary Sue type of character is really the star of the story she's in. She can be the main character, but if the main character simply ends up as a narrator of events without providing a particular perspective on such events that help define the character's build or encourage development, then she still becomes a Mary Sue. Likewise, if she is the only one communicating or otherwise giving a unique impression on the audience - that is, every other character is just a person with a name - that's another example. These are extreme cases, but are common nonetheless.

What I notice is most obvious about a Mary Sue is that the readers or viewers don't like her in the way that she can be erased from the story altogether and the rest of the cast and plot can be tweaked to work regardless. However, if the rest of the main cast can't manage without her, then it becomes an imbalance of roles and is not a well-drafted story in a completely different sense. The Mary Sue may have something to do with it, but there's plenty more problems where she came from.
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Bad Player wrote:
I don't want to invade the Athena fanclub thread, but I just can't not respond...
MBr wrote:
It's kind of hard to explain, but Mary Sues are characters that are always right, liked by every other character, have a one of a kind power or item that isn't explained, are never punished for bad actions (and are even praised for them), have a trauma that goes away easily and is used to make the reader pity them, and can do everything by themselves.

Those things are exactly Athena, except for the last one. (And no, being disliked by the killers and Aura doesn't count.)

Why doesn't being disliked by Aura count? She's not portrayed as a villain; more of an anti-hero

I think the idea is that Mary Sue is a term that's thrown around waaaaaay too much these days, especially on these forums. It's gotten to a point where people are just like, "Hm. I don't really like this female character. Mary Sue, it is!" I mean, I've seen Kay called a Sue just as much :payne: I don't disagree because I like Kay. I honestly don't think she's a Sue at all

Anyway, pretty much every female character in the series has Sue tendencies. I think the term "Mary Sue" should only be reserved for the absolute worst of those characters. Granted, the reason Athena is so polarizing is probably because she is the most Sue-ish character the series has had thus far, but she's not a Sue. She's definitely not always right, she's not liked by every character (nobody dislikes her, but nobody dislikes Apollo in this game either. It's just a coincidence with the cast. If people like Filch, Fulbright (while he wasn't acting as the Phantom), or even Cosmos were praising Athena all the time, then there'd be an argument here. Plus, Aura), the trauma is something that applies to Athena as I definitely thought her breakdowns were only there to make her character "complex" so you got me there (but like Rubia said, the plot can't really be rewritten without Athena), and Athena can't do everything by herself. They make that clear in Case 1, 3, and 5

--------------
On another tangent, I had an idea to improve Athena's character but I didn't really wanna revive this thread before. Basically, people have mentioned before that they thought Athena would go the "You killed my mother" route with Simon. I think that would've been a cool motivation for Athena to become a lawyer; she wanted to enter the field to face off against Simon in the courtroom and embarrass him. She wanted to humiliate the veteran prosecutor when he got beaten by a rookie and let him know that nobody loved him before he got executed and that she would never forgive him for what he did to her (even throw in an explanation of how she wouldn't scan his heart because she wouldn't want to peek into his soul or something). This could even contribute to Case 5 with Simon becoming more resigned for his execution. When he's declared innocent, Athena would have an actual reason to be upset because she was wrong in a significant way. She could even hate Nick during Case 5 when he's trying to acquit the both of them. I don't know. I was just thinking it was a simple change to the story that could vastly improve it
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Why doesn't being disliked by Aura count? She's not portrayed as a villain; more of an anti-hero

She's... not really a "hero," I think. And I agree she isn't on the same level of "villain" as the killers. But she's explicitly a criminal--just like all the people who dislike Athena.

Quote:
Anyway, pretty much every female character in the series has Sue tendencies. I think the term "Mary Sue" should only be reserved for the absolute worst of those characters.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo Athena? *shot*

Quote:
Athena can't do everything by herself. They make that clear in Case 1, 3, and 5

I specifically said that that one didn't apply to Athena :yogi:

But it was the only one. Putting aside the pointless distinction over whether Athena is a Sue or just a "regular" terrible character, there's still the fact that in trying to defend Athena from the title of Mary Sue, it's a list of Sue traits, all but one of which Athena fulfills.

Quote:
On another tangent, I had an idea to improve Athena's character but I didn't really wanna revive this thread before. Basically, people have mentioned before that they thought Athena would go the "You killed my mother" route with Simon. I think that would've been a cool motivation for Athena to become a lawyer; she wanted to enter the field to face off against Simon in the courtroom and embarrass him. She wanted to humiliate the veteran prosecutor when he got beaten by a rookie and let him know that nobody loved him before he got executed and that she would never forgive him for what he did to her (even throw in an explanation of how she wouldn't scan his heart because she wouldn't want to peek into his soul or something). This could even contribute to Case 5 with Simon becoming more resigned for his execution. When he's declared innocent, Athena would have an actual reason to be upset because she was wrong in a significant way. She could even hate Nick during Case 5 when he's trying to acquit the both of them. I don't know. I was just thinking it was a simple change to the story that could vastly improve it

...That'd definitely improve her complexity and deepen her character. That alone wouldn't fix her "I somehow transformed from an isolated, traumatized 11 year old in a foreign country to an 18 year old lawyer psychologist, and I have unique magic powers along with hyper-advanced technology!!", but it'd certainly be a way to help the fact that DD's story was basically copy+pasted from 1-5.
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Is Athena really liked by everyone? The only people I thought explicitly liked her was Juniper and WAA cast. Blackquill is a special case too.

Themis people weren't even all that nice to her and Solomon felt bad for her once, because that's what you do when someone who put all their effort into defending you is arrested, while you trust they wouldn't kill - feel bad for them.

Themis people might have warmed up after the case, but also keep in mind their mutual friendships... They are literally on the "I just met you, but my friend says you're cool, so let's give it a try" level.

I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.
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Nearavex wrote:
Is Athena really liked by everyone? The only people I thought explicitly liked her was Juniper and WAA cast. Blackquill is a special case too.

Themis people weren't even all that nice to her and Solomon felt bad for her once, because that's what you do when someone who put all their effort into defending you is arrested, while you trust they wouldn't kill - feel bad for them.

Themis people might have warmed up after the case, but also keep in mind their mutual friendships... They are literally on the "I just met you, but my friend says you're cool, so let's give it a try" level.

I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.

Oh, yes, the earlier games are all about Phoenix, that means he's a Mary Sue, right?
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I had only condensed a list of traits I found on the site I linked. Mary Sue is a term that gets applied to every female character with some of those traits, without considering how the character responds to them. Honestly, most characters have some Sue-ish traits but are balanced out by realistically dealing with them. Characters need those traits to be unique, but too many or too few makes them either bland or overly perfect.

Anyway, with regards to Athena, the two traits that can't be argued are the one of a kind power and item. We are given no explanation as to how she was born with her sensitive hearing, except that her mother was researching it, but we never see the contents of said research. While Aura recognizes Widget and we can see that its expressions are the same as Ponco, we're told nothing about it either.

Contrast the Gramarye power, which is explained in depth in 4-4.

Have a trauma that vanishes easily
- Except it doesn't. She needs Phoenix to take over for her in 5-1 and Apollo and Juniper and her friends to assure her she's doing the right thing in 5-3. In 5-5 she admits that she needed people to help her face her traumatic past.

Phoenix and Apollo also don't like how she gets information out of people. She also acts like a jerk towards Myriam which makes her depressed and causes her to almost delete all of her files on her laptop. Apollo tells Athena she needs to face the consequences of her actions at this point.
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Nearavex wrote:
I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.

...What? You make a semi-decent point in the first part of the post; I'd need to replay DD to go back and fully address it. And I really don't feel like doing that. But there's plenty wrong to point out in this paragraph.

First of all, the people you're listing are basically all main characters or people Nick got acquitted. Of course they're going to like him.

Second, they didn't like him "on literally the same basis" as Athena. For example, Maya doesn't really warm up to Nick until he gets her off the hook for murder. Gumshoe doesn't warm up to him until he defends Edgeworth. Athena, meanwhile, never "proves" herself; she's accepted from the start. In the very first things we heard about Athena, they tell us how they need her because she has super-amazing superpowers that are going to save them.

Third, you're forgetting all the other characters. Go replay AA, and see how people react when Nick takes out his badge. They shut up like a clam. (Recall April, Oldbag, and Lotta, if you need specific examples.) It does die down a bit in JFA and T&T as Nick builds a bit more of a reputation, but when you get to AJ, Apollo is basically everyone's butt monkey. Meanwhile, Athena doesn't really have trouble with any witnesses.

Fourth, I have never claimed Athena was a Sue either because her win number or percentage.

Fifth, even if I did, I also called Athena a Sue for a variety of other traits, like become a lawyer-psychologist at a really young age, having unexplained superpowers, etc. Nick having just one trait would not nearly be sufficient to turn him into a Sue. (But again, this point is moot, because that was never one of the reasons I claimed Athena was a Sue.)

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MBr wrote:

Have a trauma that vanishes easily
- Except it doesn't. She needs Phoenix to take over for her in 5-1 and Apollo and Juniper and her friends to assure her she's doing the right thing in 5-3. In 5-5 she admits that she needed people to help her face her traumatic past.

Phoenix and Apollo also don't like how she gets information out of people. She also acts like a jerk towards Myriam which makes her depressed and causes her to almost delete all of her files on her laptop. Apollo tells Athena she needs to face the consequences of her actions at this point.


Needing people does not mean that it's a difficult thing. Also consider how she acts even before she met Nick. Consider the shy reclusive girl who didn't really socialise. Take that character, subject her to MORE trauma and imagine what kind of character it would make. A bright bubbly optimistic go-getter of a character right? She is already basically acting like the trauma never affected her, a girl like that should be an emotionally crippled wreck who has trouble trusting the courts and the entire system after it sentenced an innocent man. Heck I'd probably say she should be more similar in attitude to Aura considering what happened but no, Athena's trauma is reduced to just being rendered speechless whenever she doesn't have an answer. Sure it's presented all dramatically with her hollowed out eyes and her black widget but it's essentially no different from all the times Phoenix put his head in his hands and debated "Is this really over?"
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I don't see how acting like her trauma never happened is a point against her. Plenty of other characters with tragic back stories put on a façade to mask their problems. Some characters become bitter and cold, openly voicing their distaste.
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MBr wrote:
I don't see how acting like her trauma never happened is a point against her. Plenty of other characters with tragic back stories put on a façade to mask their problems. Some characters become bitter and cold, openly voicing their distaste.


That's exactly the point, though, that her trauma never really affects her in a really meaningful way. That she copes just fine with it. That her 'breakdowns' are no worse than any other moment when a protagonist has been missing evidence or an answer and someone steps in to say "Think of it from another way".
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Tiagofvarela wrote:
Oh, yes, the earlier games are all about Phoenix, that means he's a Mary Sue, right?

Wasn't it Marty Sue for male characters though?

Bad Player wrote:
...What? You make a semi-decent point in the first part of the post; I'd need to replay DD to go back and fully address it. And I really don't feel like doing that. But there's plenty wrong to point out in this paragraph.

First of all, the people you're listing are basically all main characters or people Nick got acquitted. Of course they're going to like him.

Second, they didn't like him "on literally the same basis" as Athena. For example, Maya doesn't really warm up to Nick until he gets her off the hook for murder. Gumshoe doesn't warm up to him until he defends Edgeworth. Athena, meanwhile, never "proves" herself; she's accepted from the start. In the very first things we heard about Athena, they tell us how they need her because she has super-amazing superpowers that are going to save them.

Third, you're forgetting all the other characters. Go replay AA, and see how people react when Nick takes out his badge. They shut up like a clam. (Recall April, Oldbag, and Lotta, if you need specific examples.) It does die down a bit in JFA and T&T as Nick builds a bit more of a reputation, but when you get to AJ, Apollo is basically everyone's butt monkey. Meanwhile, Athena doesn't really have trouble with any witnesses.

Fourth, I have never claimed Athena was a Sue either because her win number or percentage.

Fifth, even if I did, I also called Athena a Sue for a variety of other traits, like become a lawyer-psychologist at a really young age, having unexplained superpowers, etc. Nick having just one trait would not nearly be sufficient to turn him into a Sue. (But again, this point is moot, because that was never one of the reasons I claimed Athena was a Sue.)

@MBr: Don't have time to respond now ^^"


Well, it's Nick who says her abilities are going to be needed - kinda like Mia was nice to Nick from the very beginning in 1-1.
Perhaps I do get a bit defensive with those comparisons, but I goes I'm just surprised there are still problems with it.

Edit: Either way, I still don't get "everyone likes Athena" point:

Juniper is her childhood friend.
Tenmas are pretty neutral about her.
Themis people are kinda okay with her at the end, but I wouldn't call them nice at the start, or during the trial for that matter. There's also that thing about mutual friendships and Juniper introducing her to them.
Solomon expresses that he feels bad about her being arrested and that's it.
Blackquill was pretty stuck-up around her either way, he's even colder than what would be justified by their backgrounds.
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I believe the first post is still the best post. Athena as a character isn't a Mary Sue but her role in the game makes her seem like one.
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MBr wrote:
I believe the first post is still the best post. Athena as a character isn't a Mary Sue but her role in the game makes her seem like one.


Considering that it's the only game she's been in I'd say it's fair enough to say as a character she IS a Mary Sue.

If her status improves in the next game then sure you can say "Well she's not a Mary Sue but was only for that game" but as far as we know as she is right now, she has a lot of Sue traits.
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Bad Player wrote:
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Anyway, pretty much every female character in the series has Sue tendencies. I think the term "Mary Sue" should only be reserved for the absolute worst of those characters.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo Athena? *shot*

Just wait, BP. Takumi's gonna one-up Yamazaki on the ridiculo-scale with Iris Watson. Every one of the stories she writes will be huge best sellers, and she'll be Miss Little Perfect wherever she goes. She may even get some moments when she's the one correcting Holmes, instead of Ryuu, and rules the entirety of England with her cutesy moe charm. Then Ryuu and Susato will return home to Japan and spread rumors of Europe being a very strange place where 8-year-olds can be M.D.s and best-seller writers and a great detective whose fame is spread because of said 8-year-old.

Then again I think he already one-upped Yamazaki with Espella
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Then again I think he already one-upped Yamazaki with Espella


That's just meta-commentary. She's the Mary Sue in the Storyteller's tale (level 1, inside the town), and then Jordolla wants to reveal that to everyone, only for her actions to make her once again the Mary Sue, this time in the tale of the game itself (level 2, for the player).

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Pierre wrote:
MBr wrote:
I believe the first post is still the best post. Athena as a character isn't a Mary Sue but her role in the game makes her seem like one.


Considering that it's the only game she's been in I'd say it's fair enough to say as a character she IS a Mary Sue.

If her status improves in the next game then sure you can say "Well she's not a Mary Sue but was only for that game" but as far as we know as she is right now, she has a lot of Sue traits.


Her role and character are different from each other. As a character we can see how she acts and behaves, but she's been placed into almost every scene by the developers, when she isn't really required to be there.
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MBr wrote:
I don't see how acting like her trauma never happened is a point against her. Plenty of other characters with tragic back stories put on a façade to mask their problems. Some characters become bitter and cold, openly voicing their distaste.

It isn't really a "point against her." "Athena's trauma isn't handled and doesn't affect her in any meaningful way" was a counter to "Athena has flaws! She gets traumatized in court!", which was a defense against the initial allegations of Sue-ness.

Nearavex wrote:
Tiagofvarela wrote:
Oh, yes, the earlier games are all about Phoenix, that means he's a Mary Sue, right?

Wasn't it Marty Sue for male characters though?

The term I've heard most is "Gary Stu"

Quote:
Edit: Either way, I still don't get "everyone likes Athena" point:

Eh, they might not be gushing with overwhelming praise and adoration, but they're still relatively open with information, compared to witnesses in the first game.

MBr wrote:
I believe the first post is still the best post. Athena as a character isn't a Mary Sue but her role in the game makes her seem like one.

You're right that her role and her character are not the exact same thing, but I think both are very Sue-ish. Her character is that of a cheery 18 year old lawyer psychologist genki girl with magic powers. That's... pretty Sue-ish. Her pervasive role in DD then just exacerbated the problem.

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, pretty much every female character in the series has Sue tendencies. I think the term "Mary Sue" should only be reserved for the absolute worst of those characters.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo Athena? *shot*

-snip-

DGS talk?! :ack:
getitawaygetitawaygetitawaygetitawaygetitawaygetitawaygetitawaygetitawaygetitaway

Quote:
Then again I think he already one-upped Yamazaki with Espella

I still don't really see what the big deal with Espella was. It's not like she was character of the year or anything, but it's not like she had any special powers, the fact that she was Storyteller's daughter justified the stuff that was done for her, and her self-loathing made her a much more interesting character than the others in PLvAA.
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Bad Player wrote:
She's... not really a "hero," I think. And I agree she isn't on the same level of "villain" as the killers. But she's explicitly a criminal--just like all the people who dislike Athena.

Eh. She's as much a criminal as Adrian Andrews, just more abrasive

Quote:
I specifically said that that one didn't apply to Athena :yogi:

I....misread that part

Quote:
But it was the only one. Putting aside the pointless distinction over whether Athena is a Sue or just a "regular" terrible character, there's still the fact that in trying to defend Athena from the title of Mary Sue, it's a list of Sue traits, all but one of which Athena fulfills.

She fulfills the traits but I think the traits are too generalized anyway. Like, nobody dislikes Athena (barring Aura, who we disagree on) but for the Mary Sue trait, everybody is supposed to love and adore the Sue, which isn't the case here


Quote:
...That'd definitely improve her complexity and deepen her character. That alone wouldn't fix her "I somehow transformed from an isolated, traumatized 11 year old in a foreign country to an 18 year old lawyer psychologist, and I have unique magic powers along with hyper-advanced technology!!", but it'd certainly be a way to help the fact that DD's story was basically copy+pasted from 1-5.

My stance on this aspect of Athena is something you already touched on
Quote:
Spoiler:
Obviously I don't know for sure, but I get the feeling that the theme of "emotions" and the concept of the Mood Matrix were there from the start of development. I'm also assuming that the general shape of the overarching plot was decided.
So we need a new character. And they're going to be the one to introduce the Mood Matrix thing. So if they're going to be using emotions and whatnot, they need to know about it, so they need to be a psychologist.
But they're going to be hanging around Nick & Co., and the most sensible reason why they would be working at a law firm is that they're a lawyer.
Now how old are they going to be? Well, when the 'incident' in the past happened, they were probably pretty young, so that the memories could be repressed. We could make the incident have happened a decade+ ago, but... we want that incident to signal the 'dark times of the law'. And since that also happened with Nick's disbarment trial, the incident could've only happened at most 8 years ago. And since they were a child during the incident, in present time they can't really be older than a teenager.
And if we have a teenager hanging out with an attorney, by The Fundamental Law of the Ace Attorney Universe, they must be a perky female.


And thus, Athena Cykes was born.
(tl;dr: Athena's character can't be significantly changed without also significantly reworking the plot of GS5, and it is my belief that Athena was made by fit the plot of GS5, rather than the other way around.)


Basically, I don't think Yamazaki was thinking, "Let's make Athena amazing by having her be 18 years old!" They just made her 18 because Ace Attorney. It was meant to be normal in-universe
Nearavex wrote:
Wasn't it Marty Sue for male characters though?

Marty Stu
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Just wait, BP. Takumi's gonna one-up Yamazaki on the ridiculo-scale with Iris Watson. Every one of the stories she writes will be huge best sellers, and she'll be Miss Little Perfect wherever she goes. She may even get some moments when she's the one correcting Holmes, instead of Ryuu, and rules the entirety of England with her cutesy moe charm. Then Ryuu and Susato will return home to Japan and spread rumors of Europe being a very strange place where 8-year-olds can be M.D.s and best-seller writers and a great detective whose fame is spread because of said 8-year-old.

Then again I think he already one-upped Yamazaki with Espella

As long as she's a fun and likable character, I probably won't care that much. At the end of the day, they are video games and if I'm enjoying myself, I call it a success. That's not to say I don't think problems in the writing should be discussed, but I was never that bothered by Athena's widget or age because it's not meant to be taken too seriously and when it comes to writing problems, those aren't the ones that I focus on. Things like the Mood Matrix, bracelet, and holograms being displayed never bothered me because it's a video game and those are video-gamey elements that aren't so outlandish that I won't believe it
Bad Player wrote:
I still don't really see what the big deal with Espella was. It's not like she was character of the year or anything, but it's not like she had any special powers, the fact that she was Storyteller's daughter justified the stuff that was done for her, and her self-loathing made her a much more interesting character than the others in PLvAA.

My main problem with Espella is that she's just kind of boring. Even after beating the game only 2-3 weeks ago, I really don't remember anything about her character. She never left a significant impression on me. I wouldn't call her a Sue, though, and I didn't think it was strange at all that the quadrio had a desire to help her out
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Quote:
Quote:
...That'd definitely improve her complexity and deepen her character. That alone wouldn't fix her "I somehow transformed from an isolated, traumatized 11 year old in a foreign country to an 18 year old lawyer psychologist, and I have unique magic powers along with hyper-advanced technology!!", but it'd certainly be a way to help the fact that DD's story was basically copy+pasted from 1-5.

My stance on this aspect of Athena is something you already touched on
Quote:
Spoiler:
Obviously I don't know for sure, but I get the feeling that the theme of "emotions" and the concept of the Mood Matrix were there from the start of development. I'm also assuming that the general shape of the overarching plot was decided.
So we need a new character. And they're going to be the one to introduce the Mood Matrix thing. So if they're going to be using emotions and whatnot, they need to know about it, so they need to be a psychologist.
But they're going to be hanging around Nick & Co., and the most sensible reason why they would be working at a law firm is that they're a lawyer.
Now how old are they going to be? Well, when the 'incident' in the past happened, they were probably pretty young, so that the memories could be repressed. We could make the incident have happened a decade+ ago, but... we want that incident to signal the 'dark times of the law'. And since that also happened with Nick's disbarment trial, the incident could've only happened at most 8 years ago. And since they were a child during the incident, in present time they can't really be older than a teenager.
And if we have a teenager hanging out with an attorney, by The Fundamental Law of the Ace Attorney Universe, they must be a perky female.


And thus, Athena Cykes was born.
(tl;dr: Athena's character can't be significantly changed without also significantly reworking the plot of GS5, and it is my belief that Athena was made by fit the plot of GS5, rather than the other way around.)


Basically, I don't think Yamazaki was thinking, "Let's make Athena amazing by having her be 18 years old!" They just made her 18 because Ace Attorney. It was meant to be normal in-universe


This ^

Unlike Apollo, Athena's power has never been used against her. In the investigation preceding 5-4, Apollo covers one of his eyes to stop detecting Athena's tells. None of the villains try to exploit her hearing (I'm surprised the Phantom didn't use a dog whistle or something). Only Blackquill was able to mitigate her ability by controlling his emotions and Athena, pressing on, got them into trouble when they probed the cause of his emotions.

As long as she remains entertaining, I'll enjoy her. Maybe by the next game they can clear up the issues we have with her. I don't see any reason why she won't be in the sequel to DD.
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Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
Edit: Either way, I still don't get "everyone likes Athena" point:

Eh, they might not be gushing with overwhelming praise and adoration, but they're still relatively open with information, compared to witnesses in the first game.

Oh, oh! I know this!
Many of the witnesses in the first game couldn't talk because the detective told them not to, or because the Prosecution had already made up a script for them to say, so Phoenix usually would have to convince or force it out of them.
In this game, the detective is open with his information and the Prosecutor isn't a forging bastard. And so the witnesses are allowed to talk with attorneys properly.
That means that their only reason to lie or not open up is if they're hiding something or are just being stupid (ala Victor Kudo and Lotta Hart)
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I'm fairly neutral in the debate over whether Athena is a Mary Sue or not, though I am curious about one thing. To the people who say Athena is NOT a Mary Sue... If Athena isn't a Mary Sue, what WOULD make her one? What can be changed or added to her character to make her a Mary Sue?

Nearavex wrote:
I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.

Uh...
Spoiler: Justice for All
Didn't Phoenix lose case 2-4?

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Funnily enough, I didnn't count that case when giving the number.
Also, when will people learn that 2-4 is merely an exception to the rule?

Regarding your original point, I don't think anyone would try to make such a character, but I'll go ahead - first step would be having her a main playable protagonist in all the cases - perhaps even 5-5. Apollo and Phoenix would be her seniors, but they would be probably reduced to assistants.

Speaking of Apollo, have you heard of anyone ever doubting a Sue? Let's get rid of the "Apollo leaves the agency" and instead make Apollo Athena's perfect boyfriend!

Still... there are more handsome guys in the game, right? Klavier and Edgeworth could have a crush on her - Edgeworth will ride with her in his sports car and then Klavier takes her on his motorcycle - we will think later of a way to make Apollo relevant again.

...okay, I'm just making this stuff up, but you wanted a Sue xD
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Nurio wrote:
I'm fairly neutral in the debate over whether Athena is a Mary Sue or not, though I am curious about one thing. To the people who say Athena is NOT a Mary Sue... If Athena isn't a Mary Sue, what WOULD make her one? What can be changed or added to her character to make her a Mary Sue?

Complete the list that BP mentioned above. Make Athena do everything. And turn her into an android as a final plot twist Bonus points if after all this, she and Blackquill go off on a vacation and don't come back for the next game.

It's debatable that she's liked by everyone, though, regarding how freely this game moves along with investigations, but it's an easy game on the whole, so of course the witnesses are going to talk more freely. (Plus, Fulbright is a bright fool.) The only thing this is a big problem with is the Dark Age of Lol.

Wait, BP, how is Athena always right? Unless you mean the way that a playable defense attorney is always right.
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Nearavex wrote:
Speaking of Apollo, have you heard of anyone ever doubting a Sue? Let's get rid of the "Apollo leaves the agency" and instead make Apollo Athena's perfect boyfriend!

You're thinking about this the wrong way. It's not that Athena isn't a Sue because Polly doubted her. It's that Athena is a Sue because Polly reacted so strongly to the fact he doubted her :basil:

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Wait, BP, how is Athena always right? Unless you mean the way that a playable defense attorney is always right.

Yes, that. It's true for all the AA protags, but it was still part of the list xP
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