This... isn't really helping your case.

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I get the impression some people just want to hate on Athena using any excuse at hand.

wow
lawyer at 18
so unrealistic
prodigy mary sue much
wow
unrealistic psychological analysis
so much magic
wow

It is a mockery, but this how I see all these "problems".

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True a lot of things get used but they are often used by more intimidating people that Athena Cykes and the judge is too weak willed to argue. It's like everytime you point a flaw in the Prosecution's testimony THEY don't get a penalty. Hell so far the only thing we know they get penalties for is forged evidence. The judge panders to the prosecution indeed AA courts favour the prosecution by the default stance being "Guilty" instead of "Innocent until proven Guilty". You can twist a prosecution's theory totally out of proportion and still get a guilty when the penalties happen. There's a moment in the final case where the judge questions the use of emotion technology in the Courtroom with regards to profiling the criminal and if the judge is questioning it you can be sure the prosecution would not accept it unless the person was qualified. All the things you suggested are aggressive things that keep the judge at bay. If you use something that's obvious and doesn't threaten the judge there's no guarantee he'd let such unconventional methods slide. Perhaps that's an explanation for why Phoenix never uses the Magatama in court, because the Judge would never let 'supernatural lie chains' slide. Athena's method must be grounded in some form of science and qualified background to be permissible in court.

While it's hardly proof I suppose, the Ace Attorney Wiki described Cykes as a "specialist in Analytical Psychology". I put it to you you don't become a specialist by just doing a single module of psychology for one year. Based on the degree of praise she gets for it and how it's implemented in courtrooms it would only make sense if she was fully qualified, otherwise it wouldn't be have the amazing momentous achievement everyone treats her like it is.

Apollo's thing isn't really something physical, it's not a tool you stop the court for like the times Athena said "Your Honour I demand a quick Counselling Session!". It's just something that happens during standard cross examination. I don't even know how Blackquill knew Apollo was doing it to stop him unless he strikes some sort of 'crazy eye' pose while perceiving. Apollo never offers "This person is twitching therefore, they lie" as an argument on it's own, he just catches onto the twitch, relates it to an action (since it's a subconscious motion) and then expands upon that with theories and evidence.

Also Android theory is sound but it is just crack

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IT'S MAGIC I TELL YOU, EVERYTHING'S MAGIC IN THE AA SERIES!

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At the same time, the mood matrix isn't used as proof on its own. It is used as a tool to help understand an existing testimony so that further questions can be raised.

I think her skills are on level compared to the other players. Her lawyering is as discussed on a rookie level. Her confidence is quite high, but her ability to back it up is as usual quite shaky. Her despair episodes cement that she isn't quite as confident as she act.

With regards to her special ability it's nothing worth thinking about. It's a fairly normal power given the setting.

As for the plot, yes this game is about her and Simon. That's fine. It's not what some people were hoping for, but it's not bad in it self. It is true that perhaps a bit too much focused on her, but that does not change her as a character.

Now, what happens in the story is much more important. She has a backstory that is strongly linked to the finale of this story. She meets with a lost friend. Apollo has troubles believing in her, but want to. The ever so mystical black locks show on her. Those are all facts. It is probably a bit much for just one game, but it does not make her a bad character.

Something important here is how other characters interact with her. Most are generally friendly with her, but not because of her as a character. They are just friendly in general. They become friends because they interact with each other, not because the writer said so.

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True, in fact if I recall the incident where the Judge DOES raise an issue is The one time where they do try to use the mood matrix as proof on it's own.

My issue is more for the fact that Athena has to stop the court proceedings in a way to issue special counselling at times. I don't think she would ever be allowed to get away with such things if she didn't have some legally recognised documentation confirming her authority on the subject.

Note that I don't have much problem with her character, and I did enjoy the game in spite of how much attention was focused on her, I just think they have given her WAY too much in terms of 'genius' and 'prodigy' within such a small time frame that I'm struggling to believe it now as opposed to previous legends.





Then again I remember a particular camp of people that wanted the writers to "break the Trucy" and show her crying or cracking under pressure in someway or worse. Perhaps you belong in that camp? I think the issue in question here really comes down to individual opinions of Trucy but that's not really relevant here.

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There are PAGES of lengthy, well-thought out posts from people on both sides of the issue in multiple threads. If that's all you see the complaints as...

I get the impression some people are just too lazy to either read or properly respond to the posts

Anyway, @TheBlarghMan: Back on Widget, go back to 5-1, and look at the very first line he says in the game. Widget says exactly what Athena is thinking, with words unique and topical to the situation, with Athena saying nothing. I can't help but think it's mind-reading.

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Also in spite of what TheBlarghMan said I'm almost certain there's at least a moment where Widget speaks without Athena having spoke before as I recall a moment of her going "Shut up Widget!" when she was trying to keep something concealed.

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Fair enough, but I put it to you that using the wiki as reference material is about as founded as using Wikipedia.

At any rate, even if you make the argument that the prosecution gets away with all of this simply because it's the prosecution, there are plenty of instances where the defense gets away with stuff equally as ludicrous. I'm sure cross examining a parrot rings quite a few bells.

And as further proof, I would submit that the judge has literally no clue as to Athena's background whatsoever. The judge doesn't recognize Athena at all when she steps into court for the first time, and I believe she pulls out the mood matrix before the trial ends for the first day, so there would have been absolutely no time to research her background at all. I think you're giving the judge far too much credit for controlling what goes on in his court.

I think Athena's skill works in the same way as Apollo's, only there's more degrees of separation. For instance, in the first time it's used, Athena determines that Juniper is oddly happy, and then oddly sad, and then Phoenix relates that back to a piece of evidence: the tail on Rum Rap Rhiny or whatever it's called. Same with the Mood Matrixing of Yuri Cosmos, they go through his emotions, and eventually determine from said emotions that a certain piece of evidence (the switched lever thing on the wall) was changed while he was in there.

It certainly takes a lot longer, but it all comes around to the evidence eventually.

At any rate, once again, what I believe to be the biggest argument towards Athena only having studied it on the side is the feasibility of doing such a thing. I said before how Athena minoring in psychology was hard enough to believe, but having her doing a full blown double major in both law and psychology all by the age of 18 is utterly ridiculous. Even if you say that she skipped grades going from America to Europe; her mom was killed when she was 11(6th grade), so let's say that she got moved all the way to the start of high school (9th grade or so). She would have had seven years, provided she started school right away, to obtain both a degree in law and psychology. Even if there are special law colleges in Europe like Themis, a double major would imply that she would be taking courses from another university as well (unless Themis-knockoff provides a psychology major for some reason), and that is completely out of the realm of possibility.

So for simple time reasons...no. She doesn't have a major in psychology.

I might add to the argument saying that Athena has a major simply because she's referred to as a "specialist," that we have a perfect example of someone who's referred to as a "master" of psychology who almost certainly hasn't done a course in it during his entire life: Simon Blackquill. All he knows about psychology is what he learned from Metis Cykes teaching him, and yet, he's commonly referred to in Japanifornia as "the master of suggestion," or "a skilled psychologist."

People in Ace Attorney land are just easy to impress.

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You are correct and I wouldn't cite if it the only other option wasn't a long and detailed replaying of the game I just beat scouring for specific phrases in any scene Athena is discussed in (hint: Most of them).



I was specifically referring to things outside normal court proceedings (i.e. phyiscally abusing the judge and defendant and well...everybody). Calling a witness, sure it's an unconventional witness but is still within regular court regulations. I was a little surprised it wasn't hinted at more when they brought a robot to testify.



I'm not specifying the Judge (or if I did I was wrongly worded I apologise), the onus shouldn't be on the Judge himself the Legal system itself should determine what is allowed as part of a normal court-proceeding. It's not like the Prosecution and Defence need to flash their badges when they sit behind the desk to the judge. It is all pre-approved. Besides if we concede that the judge isn't going to stop it, surely Blackquill would. He knows Athena and her mother's research, he could easily call it farcical and move to get it dismissed early on if Athena wasn't qualified to administer such things.



That's not the thing I'm getting at. Apollo doesn't need to announce "EXCUSE ME, I AM NOW GOING TO EXAMINE THE WITNESS WHILE TESTIFYING" and then glare intently at the witness he just does it during cross examination. Athena does need to ask "I request a quick counselling session with the witness". This then needs to be approved by the judge and the prosecution. It's a recognition of her professional capacity to administer counselling.



You don't need to convince me on how ridiculous her rapid progress is, that's the problem.
Your suggestion is reasonable, but it's not feasible, not for her to be credible enough to administer 'counselling'. A minor in psychology is not worth the recognition she is given in-universe either unofficially or in official capacity. Indeed it wouldn't be worth mentioning. She probably also did a minor in modern languages for all she talks it but it's never 'lauded' the same way as her analytical psychology minor.

Here's how it rolls.
Does every profession have a unique identifying object? (Like Prosecution and Defence "badges"): No
Do people need to be qualified to prosecute or defend in court: Yes
Do people need to be qualified to provide counselling in a professional setting: Yes

We may never be shown her degree or an object that proves her accomplishment but by virtue her actions and the cast's acceptance of them, she must be fully qualified to administer counselling.



Is it confirmed how long he studied under Metis Cykes? I don't recall hearing him referred to as a 'master' of psychology or a 'skilled psychologist'. I heard he was a 'master of suggestion' and he uses some psychological elements to achieve that goal. Really its extremely shady and puts Metis Cykes under a great deal of ethical scrutiny for teaching specific elements that would be used to abuse and manipulate someone. Simon only learned what he had to, he is never really shown referencing psychology or terms or anything to really set him up as a 'master' of psychology. Besides he could have learned under Metis Cykes for a few years, with is a reasonable time to learn something, a reasonable time that Athena does not have.

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I agree, these complaints were fully worded. I just don't really see their point, despite reading all these arguments... I can't help but to feel that Athena gets picked on matters that are not anything new and only now, in her case it's interpreted as a problem.

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Yes I'm a little worried for myself.
I'm worried that what's happening to Athena is what happened to Apollo when he replaced Phoenix in GS4. Folks seemed to hate him by virtue of him not being Phoenix.

I don't hate Athena (on the contrary I quite like some of her character) but I had hoped the game would focus more on Apollo and Phoenix and Athena's interjection might be creating a bias against her for me.

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About Athena vs Apollo: there's also a difference in what their powers are used for.

In Mood Matrix, the witness is not actively against Athena & co. Usually, they're legitimately confused about what happened, and Athena is helping them clear that up through counseling.

In Perceive, however, the witnesses are actively lying and trying to hide something.

That's the difference between the two. In Perceive, Polly uses it to zero-in on where exactly the witness is lying, and then uses evidence to break out the truth. In Mood Matrix, Athena is merely fixing the witness' testimony that was unconsciously mixed up; I don't think it's a coincidence that the only time the Mood Matrix itself is used as evidence is the only time (IIRC) it's used on a killer.


I find it kind of funny how you're totally okay with getting a college degree by 18, but claiming that doing so with a double-major is totally impossible :P


Except these are new problems. Athena is probably the character most-overloaded with positive traits in the entire franchise. Even if you disagree with that, it's still the first time a "prodigy" character has been on our side. Athena's power is also the least developed/explained out of the magic lawyer powers. Athena's plot is also the first overarching plot we've had for a game that has had absolutely no ties to a previous game.

These complaints are all unique to Athena.

Going a bit broader to DD itself, this is the first time we've had "streamlined" investigations, the first time a plot for a case has been "recycled," etc.

There's plenty of new stuff here to complain about :P

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IN JUSTICE WE TRUST! I'm sorry BP but that statement isn't truly just.

Remember the first ever perceive? Olga Orly?
She kept rubbing the back of her head unconsciously. Her memories were muddled by concussion. She wasn't actively lying then was she?

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Well, what she had said was that Nick strangled Shadi, which was actually just Nick taking the necklace. But that was after Shadi had died, which meant it was after Olga had been hit. My theory is that Olga was drifting in and out of consciousness, and she happened to see it during that time.

However, even if she actually did unconsciously get that confused, at that point (IIRC) she was still actively lying about working with Shadi to set up Nick, and about getting attacked by Shadi.

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She had a reason to became a lawyer as fast as possible and encounters trouble with lack of experience, unlike Klavier who wasn't even of legal age when he was a cool rockstar lawyer without any purpose other than playing with his older brother. That's just an example.

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Whoops, I'm behind again.


I think it pretty much covers everything. Why are people still arguing the feasibility of Athena's potential for graduating with double majors at 18, when she is supposed to be abnormal, in the land of abnormality?


Indeed, there are. I still haven't forgiven Capcom for leaving out Charley, even though they have the real-life version of him sitting at HQ. Yes, I'm serious about this.

But on the other side, because all these things are unique to Athena, she stands out in that way. I doubt that the writers will ever make the mistake of duplicating her case in a future game. It does bring up the question as to why they even included a character like Thena at all. Well, why not? As much attention she can get - well-intentioned or not - she still contributes a somewhat familiar flavor to the cast, one reminiscent of young Mia. Forget all those extra perks about her; they're not important in the long run. What matters now is her position as a rookie attorney.

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Man I just saw some of Athena's concept art (with the 'antenna' hair).

I'm more convinced than ever she was at one point intended to be a robot.

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It's done in two places, if memory serves. First, Bobby Fulbright mentions it when he discusses it with Athena and Apollo during their first meeting, and then Phoenix mentions it again in the defense's lobby before the 1st day of the case 2 trial. I could be wrong on the specific instances, but I do remember for a fact that he's associated with psychology.


Well, at least in Ace Attorney world, the graduating age in Europe must be significantly lower than in America, given how every single "genius" prosecutor who graduates in their teens all happen to come from Europe. Certainly not the way it is in real life, but perhaps in this world European children start school at an earlier age.

My point is that if you were to begin early enough, or skip grades, it's possible. Highly unlikely, but still possible. However, there just flat out isn't enough time to obtain a double major in the span of seven years, regardless of how early you start.


On the contrary, how would Blackquill have any idea whether Athena was a licensed researcher or not? All Athena does in court is use Widget to identify emotions in voice; the only time she uses her own talent at all is figuring out where to actually use Widget in the first place. Considering that Blackquill and Athena almost certainly hadn't kept in touch over the past seven years, he would have had no way of telling whether she was a licensed psychologist or not, considering her emotional analysis doesn't extend that far beyond the use of a robot.

And honestly, Blackquill doesn't seem like the kind of person who would step out of his way to stop what might seem like out of form court proceedings. This is the guy who leaves on a stroll with a detective in the middle of a trial, after all.


...I question your definition of "counselling."

At any rate, just to answer that, I'd like to quote the section where the Mood Matrix first comes into play.

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Athena: Your honor, I believe her memory is simply clouded by fear! But a quick therapy session should ease her mind! With the court's permission, of course.
Judge: What a fabulous idea! Please proceed, Ms. Cykes.
======

I quote this to simply bring up the point that the Judge agrees to Athena's suggestion without any sort of questioning as to the specifics of what this so called "therapy session" would be. He has no idea what it entails, but he permits it nonetheless. Suffice to say that he doesn't even bother to check Athena's credentials, since he doesn't even bother to ask what Athena would be doing.

Another issue is that Athena, and by extension, no one else, knew that she would be on this case until the day before the trial. Athena was placed on the defense team and likely registered as an attorney the day before (if 4-4's rules still apply), meaning that the court wouldn't have time to check her credentials in the first place. Even if they were somehow going to bar unlicensed psychologists from using a robot, they wouldn't have had time to check and make sure she was actually licensed. It takes more than a simple phone call to whatever university she attended to check that, documents have to be forwarded, signatures confirmed, etc. The process would take at least a day in and of itself, but the fact that the court simply allows her to proceed with her "therapy" without even taking the time to check her background should be proof enough.

While I certainly agree that the judge needs to approve it (the prosecutor can object to the use of it, but needs a legitimate reason, while the judge makes the final call), his standards for approval are so incredibly lax that I could walk in with a Widget and do the same sort of thing.

As for Widget...I went and looked, and yeah, he does. Maybe Athena muttered something under her breath that the game didn't specifically state was audibly talking? There's at least one instance in previous games where blue text in parenthesis is translated as someone talking to themselves (Kristoph tells Apollo in 4-1 that there's such a thing as "thinking aloud too much" after a string of blue text), so it could have been that. Or maybe Widget does read expressions.

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Deleted those random last few posts :P


That's not one of the points I made at all...? When I mentioned Athena being a prodigy, I made it in the context of her being a protagonist, which Klavier (no matter how terrible a prosecutor he is) is technically not.

(And even then, regardless of how strong a "reason" someone has for wanting something, there's still the logistics of actually getting it done. No matter how good a reason I have for wanting to be an attorney, I can't be one by tomorrow.)


Yeah, they definitely do explicitly associate Blackquill with psychology. But then again, Blackquill could be a master of psychology in the same way Godot was a feared and famous prosecutor in 3-2 :P


Athena could have been "pre-licensed" to do it in court, for whenever she had her first case, maybe?


Well, "counselling" is the word the game themselves use, so... (At least in the Japanese version.)


Widget does pretty much the same thing the second time it talks in the game too, though. And I'm sure there are plenty of other instances. While there was one time in the previous games where the blue-text was changed to muttering rather than thinking to play for laughs, I don't think Athena is constantly muttering under her breath.

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Yes I'm not doubting whether he did or not, I'm wondering is he spent a realistic time studying there. Like I said it's not that he's 'associated with psychology' that bothers me. I just don't recall him ever being mentioned as a master of "psychology" just "suggestion". Even then I could believe he was a master of psychology if he'd put the proper time in...like Athena hasn't.



Ugh this is bothersome the game makes so many leniencies for Athena's character I'm starting to dislike her more. Though people have suggested that Widget is just a display and she actually uses her powers to input the information rather than the detection method you described there. There's just so much of a lack of information regarding Athena it's hard to argue anything against her.



I question her definition of "counselling" as well because she has certainly used that phrase at times to describe it. However yes...there is no concrete proof in that she holds any kind of degree in psychology. Therefore Athena now comes across as obnoxious, boasting about 'analytical psychology' when she really has a very limited understanding of it and is reliant on her magic psychology robot to do it for her. Also everyone praises her for what is only a mediocre achievement in doing a minor in psychology?

Whether the legal system doesn't go into details for conducting sudden therapy sessions in court or not isn't the matter anymore. The characters actions don't add up. Why would everyone praise her for analytical psychology if it was only a minor of her major degree? I don't know it almost makes her....more believable and less like a prodigy. Sure she graduated early but nowhere near as early as other people. WHY would they praise it if it's totally unremarkable. Majoring as a lawyer by 18 years I can buy and yes it's impressive but this is against the likes of Franziska (who started at 13) and Klavier (who started in AMERICA at 17, he might have graduated before for all we know). Why on Earth would Phoenix give her such praise when he's seen so much better in his time? Why would her psychology minor be even worth mentioning? I'm sure Klavier and Franziska probable had a minor in something as well, Phoenix had a minor in art. The answer? She did a major in both.

The other answer? Poor writing and character design



Grasping at straws a bit I think, blue text is more translated as inner thought. It would require a really good microphone to tune into Athena's whisperings under all the ambient noise. As for expressions I believe Widget's outbursts are too specific to run on expression alone.

For example at some point Gaspen Payne is being particularly cruel and Athena looks grim and furious and Widget blurts out "You Jerk!". Now from this weird 'chest mounted' camera you are suggesting assuming it analysed her face. An appropriate response would be "I'm angry!" The camera couldn't see Gaspen, or possibly know the cause of the anger from watching Athena's expression alone. Neither could this information be composed from pure emotional analysis as we know Widget only sees in Angry/Sad/Happy/Confused and variations when it comes to emotions. Nothing as specific as "Angry at him", Athena has to put in that information herself during the mood matrix.
The only conclusion is it takes that information from the Athena's mind to know her feelings and the contextual information causing that feeling as well.

Widget is a super mind-reading robot from the future...and Athena is damn blessed (like everything else) to have it.


P.S. Thanks BP XP

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Klavier started in America, but he studied/graduated in Europe, just like Athena (IIRC)

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Just like Franziska. In fact more specifically like Franziska as C-R specifies they both graduated in Germany...and she managed it at 13 so we don't know how early Klavier's courtroom debut was.

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No, his first trial was the flashback trial in 4-4... He made a big hissyfit about how he wanted his first trial to be against his brother and then Nick ruined it, remember? :P Klavier and Athena both made their courtroom debuts in America.


Also, looking at the first time Widget speaks one more time, right before Widget speaks Athena says (in blue-text) that she can't speak at all, so... no muttering, I think.

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G-Gah well my point still stands, Klavier and Franziska graduated before Athena so why is she such a special little buttercup.

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The direct quote from Fulbright is below.


You are welcome to accept your penalty at any time. :p


Not at all. You're forgetting two very key aspects of Athena, both of which likely no one else on Earth has (and even if they do, almost assuredly no one in the legal profession).

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the first time Phoenix "gives Athena such praise," which is the opening cutscene of Dual Destinies. The exact line is "her power will be our greatest weapon."

Now, you could take "her power" to mean "her infusion of a psychological degree into the law." Or you could interpret it as something else entirely. Say, for example, her ability to pick emotions out of voices. Phoenix very well could have encountered her in Europe, spent some time with her and watched her demonstrate her ability, and then decided that would be an incredibly useful tool to have. Considering how engrossed Phoenix has become in the art of "tell spotting" over the years with Apollo, Trucy, and the Gramaryes, he would likely have noticed her ability to pick emotions out of a voice and immediately related its use as a different kind of tell spotting. This could very well be the power he refers to.

Or it could be Widget, which seems to be amazing enough in and of itself. Kind of anti-climatic, but it could easily qualify as something that would attract Phoenix's attention.

At any rate, I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of praise Athena gets for her "therapy sessions." Phoenix and Apollo think it's cool, certainly. The judge makes an off hand comment or two about it, but nobody else really comments on it until the 5th case or so (when the entire point of the final boss is emotions).

But as for why they would praise her? Simple. She's got hearing that can discern emotions from voice. What part of that isn't extraordinary?


To an extent, I agree, but at some point I think it's just not worth the game's time to try and give some pseudo-scientific explanation which probably wouldn't be plausible in the first place. It's Ace Attorney, it's going to be over the top and somewhat ridiculous in the first place, and trying to have a serious debate about pointing out why something is ridiculous is almost an exercise in futility in my opinion.


Once again, not everyone does, but essentially, yes, that's how it works.

And everyone was complaining about how she didn't have any flaws. :p

To some extent, though, there's only so much psychological knowledge that could benefit a lawyer in the first place. All she would need to know his how to discern emotions and the probable causes of such, and that would be as much as could be applied to a legal profession. I'm certainly no psychologist, but I would imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to acquire a semi-firm understanding of that, and combined with a robot and a super sensitive hearing, yeah, she could probably get by with that.


Generally, it is people just thinking. However, there are a few other occurrences in which it is people actually talking to themselves in a voice loud enough for people to hear. I referenced the AJ example, and I think there's one more in JFA where Mia calls out Phoenix for doing it as well.

At some point, we have to come up with some explanation as to how Widget functions that isn't just "he reads minds," because that's completely unfeasible.

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But the whole problem with Athena is that she's too extraordinary (for a protagonist)!


They've given some explanation for the other crazy things that have happened, or at the very least expanded upon it and given it lore and whatnot. To me with Athena it seems like the writers just went "This is how Athena and her powers are going to be because we're the writers and we say so," which is lazy. And contributes to her problem of being "too extraordinary."


But... there isn't really one. And that's the problem =\

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I disagree that sticking a special sense of hearing and a robot (both of which she inherited and had nothing to do with in terms of actually earning or developing), onto a character with a special background makes her "too extraordinary."


And they gave some explanation here as well. Athena's hearing is a hereditary trait, and Widget was a machine developed by her mother. That's essentially the exact same explanation for Apollo's bracelet and where it comes from in Apollo Justice. Why is it a problem here and not there?


I disagree that there isn't one. The famous line from Godot/Spock: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, regardless of how improbable, must be the truth." It seems improbably that Athena was talking to herself in that one instance, but it's not impossible. It's also difficult to imagine that Widget can really get a grasp of Athena's emotional state by looking at her expression, but once again, it's not impossible.

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Ugh...Fulbright....why....was I not the most Just?

Fine but for all they talk of his 'psychological' ploys he never really demonstrates it well in court. He tricks THE JUDGE (oooh) into doing his Opening Statement. He pushes one defendant close to confessing (which based on the reason they took the stand on the first place, they were probably already going to do). For all the talk he hardly uses many skills and anyway my question was really "how long did he spend studying it" because therein lies the truth, is he on par with Athena? Did Athena spend as long? Did it take him a realistic amount of time?



The people who praise her are the only non-antagonistic people who know about it. Random witnesses for each case ain't going to know. Blackquill and Payne the prosecution certainly ain't likely to throw a compliment her way about it (at least until the point Blackquill throws all his chips in). Like you said the judge comments on it and with Phoenix/Apollo giving us "Wow she's so amazing" about 5 times over the course of each case it's pretty remarkable praise.

And like BP said that IS exactly the problem. She's TOO extraordinary, they've thrown all the things in the melting pot to make her the shiniest star in the night sky. Sure she's had a tragic life and is a bit quick off the mark but that only serves to make her more endearing.



Again like BP said...it's explained for the other superpowers.



Like I've said, Widget takes into account context and emotions both of which it could only derive if it could read her mind. Reading her emotions is weird enough considering it's not got electrodes strapped to her head but like you said...it's extraordinary so why shouldn't we praise her for it?


Also in response to your latest things: Drag me a quote that says Athena's power was hereditary. I don't recall her mother having it at all. HER ROBOTS (ANDROID ANDROID) had it programmed into them to an extent. Yet I don't think it was ever mentioned the power came from her mother, after all why not study herself instead of her daughter if that was the case since she clearly wasn't fond of the experiments.

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Like I said way back when, the problem isn't any one trait of hers, but rather the fact that she has all of them.


When do they say that Athena is hereditary? I kind of thought it wasn't, since it seemed like Athena was the first time Metis had encountered it.

They also don't explain the mechanics of Athena's power (besides "she hears emotions because lolmagic and widget interprets it because loltechnology"), whereas they do for Polly's power.


But it isn't just that one time. There are others. Also, knowing Athena's emotional state isn't enough for Widget to function. For instance, in the very first time Widget speaks, how does it know that Athena is mad at a prosecutor?

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Don't know. All of this was just to say that people in the Ace Attorney world are very easily impressed, therefore, all of the congratulations Athena gets in game (which I personally believe is overstated, but running with this theory) don't mean quite as much.


Which is my point, only Phoenix and Apollo praise her. And, let's be honest, if someone next to you had the ability to read emotions from voices, I think you'd be impressed as well.


I'll agree that she has a number of positive traits, certainly, some of them even extraordinary, but like I've said before I think she has plenty of negative traits to more than balance her out. As I mentioned, she's over emotional to the point of changing personalities at the drop of a hat, she loses confidence quickly and needs to be reassured of herself, she goes off on wild tangents, and at one point she went so far out that Apollo actually objected to her talking.

I'll agree that she certainly has quite a few positive traits in that she graduated earlier, has hypersensitive hearing, and a cool robot, but she's got plenty of personality faults that make up for that and balance her out as a character. I suppose if you view all of her negative traits as simply "endearing," then that's more of how you view a character, I guess, but to say that she's somehow the shiniest star in the sky because of all that is a bit off the mark IMO.

I honestly think that this exact same argument could be made for someone like Pearl Fey. She has a wealth of positive traits, many of which people on this thread have applied to Athena. She's kind, a prodigy of sorts, has an incredible ability which is impossible to explain scientifically. Perhaps she lacks the buildup of the game as a "genius," but in return, she's got the build up of JFA and T&T as someone with a wealth of spiritual power who is liable to be on the same level as Misty. And, like Athena, she has a tragic background, and most of her negative traits are also endearing ones as well (such as her incessant desire to ship Maya and Phoenix).


To the first part...give me a while. I'm only on Case 2 in a replay of DD, and getting to Case 5 will take a while (it actually timed itself pretty well earlier). :p

As for the second...correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the supposed "tests" that Metis ran on her daughter were just Aura's misinterpretations of the headphones Metis made Athena wear (which were for her own protection). Aura was looking for some motive to use in order to have Athena blamed for her mom's death, and mistook the headphones.


It's certainly not explained, but it seemed pretty obvious to me. Athena's "hears" the witnesses confused state of emotions, and uploads the recording of the voice to Widget, whereupon Widget analyzes it. Not too out of bounds, at least by AA standards.


Who's to say it does know? Widget's lines in the first day of the first case are:

"You arrogant jerk!"
"Arrogant jerk!"
"L is for loser!"
"She was about to bolt!"

None of those specifically reference a prosecutor, and even if they did, Athena actually points at Prosecutor Payne once and calls him by that name, so Widget could have simply kept that in mind.

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A bit of a side-rail to the current discussion, but about the whole "you're soo good!" stuff, I've noticed that it's just a common trope in DD's dialogue and not just towards Athena. In case 5 when Blackquill plays along with you-know-who's act Athena goes all like "Wow, it was just an act, you're so good Blackquill!" (major paraphrase here) and in the same case when you meet Pearl, and I don't know if this is part of the mandatory dialogue or not, but if you present stuff to Pearl - even irrelevant stuff - Phoenix goes "I don't know what I would do without you here Pearls" and "You've been such a good assistance" and just constant back-and-forth with forced praise to each other.

Now it might be true that Athena gets the most "attention" regarding this praise-back-and-forth but my point is just that it seems like a thing that the writer just does a lot in general without thinking about it, or maybe it stems from him being a polite person IRL or something.

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"Don't Know" is not a valid ANSWWWEEERRRRRRR *Insert Robin Newman Rage Smilie here*



No...no your point works against you is what I mean. EVERYONE who knew about her power showered in in praise for it, and this isn't even about her power specifically this started with everyone PRAISING her success at Psychology AND Law. If it had been one individually with a minor it wouldn't have been worth such praise. I propose it was a rather fudged attempt at the writers to force Athena into the main cast in an attempt to make her seem 'on par' with these legends (both in universe and out) but they overshot it.



Yeah...all her personality flaws are there to elicit a care response from us. When she cringes she cuddles herself and shakes as if needing a hug and attention. Besides like her personality 'flips' her flaws are only temporary ironed out at the drop of a hat possibly never going to appear again assuming she went through some character development in Case 5.



I'll save you the time, both me and BP don't remember it (that's 2 to one) the Ace Attorney Wiki doesn't say anything about it being hereditary on either of the characters (so at least one other person who doesn't remember it). Either it was in extremely well-hidden dialogue or you are bluffing and stalling for time!

As for Aura saying it, I think I heard Athena say she was unhappy at tests or something as well. However that might have just been the headphones. Either way there's no indication that it's an inherited ability.



At this point you are just having to make up stuff to explain away a truth you just can't accept.
As I said before *ahem*.

We know Widget's emotional capacity, Happy, Sad, Confused, Angry and some slight variations of those. Therefore based on emotional processing it could emit phrases like "I'm angry, I'm sad, I don't get it" or to be less robotic "GRRRRRR!!"

The previous theory was that there was a camera that could analyse her facial expressions, and a microphone clear enough to hear whispers from a good distance away over ambient noise.

Even assuming that the point is not that it's a prosecutor the point is its a person. Widget couldn't get that information purely from facial analysis.

You said that whatever remains no matter how improbable is the answer. You need to face up and accept that it is EXACTLY as the game presents it. Widget can read the users emotions and thoughts.

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Double post for decisive evidence.

Unfortunately you'll have to play it for like....3 minutes to see for yourself but I went and saw the "You arrogant jerk" line.

The line did indeed come up in blue writing before Widget spoke...but Athena's mouth was not moving at all. It was her inner monologue not these so called 'whisperings' you've professed. Furthermore a few lines later Athena says herself...

"He...sometimes blurts out what I'm thinking"

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Allow me to elaborate. I'm not attempting to debate whether or not Simon studied psychology for a while. My point is that people are impressed with his psychological skills even though he rarely does anything with it. I'm attempting to show that people in the Ace Attorney world are easily impressed, so arguing whether Simon Blackquill is really a classified psychologist or not is pointless.

If you're sincerely interested in it, I can let you know when I get to Case 5. There's probably a bit of Aura dialogue about it somewhere.


You're overstating things by such an incredible margin that I'm not really sure where to begin. If Phoenix thinks to himself "wow, she's really good at something," that's not showering her in praise. If he says to her "thanks Athena, you were useful," that's not showering in praise. If he says "Athena, you're so wonderful and beautiful and it was all thanks to you that we won the case," then yes, that would be showering.

Incidentally, that kind of praise actually occurs twice in the game. Want to guess who it's done by in both occasions?




and then later on...



I'll certainly grant that Phoenix and Apollo are both impressed by Athena, but you're making it sound like they're constantly fawning over her to the point of completely adoring her, when in reality, if anyone at the agency actually adores another member, it's Athena who adores Phoenix.

Unless you're willing to show some in game examples of Phoenix or Apollo supposedly "showering" Athena as praise, then I really don't know what to say. At this point, it feels like we played an entirely different game. Are you sure you didn't get the super Athena esteem boosting edition?


...I want to respond to this, but I'm not entirely sure as to what the middle part is saying. Not to be a Grammar Nazi, but could you rewrite that? It's a little hard to read.


What did I make up? You can go play through Case 1 again if you want: Widget never address Prosecutor Payne as a Prosecutor before Athena does (and never addresses him as a prosecutor at all, for that matter)

As for how he knew Athena was responding to a person, all he would need to do is listen to her conversation. It's fairly easy that she's discussing things with a person.

Again, at this point, I'm not too inclined to believe that all it does is read her voice, but if you're going to argue extensively against that theory, at least pick some examples that hold water.

Once again, all of this is simple theories that I'm throwing out. I never said that they were set in stone facts based in game canon, only that there was some evidence supporting the idea of that. Certainly not enough evidence to prove a theory, but enough to make it at least partially viable.


My quote of another person's quote is out of context here, but setting that aside...

Let's go back to how the game actually presents Widget, shall we?



The only clue we're given as to how Widget works (at least, the saying what they're thinking part) is contained in that right there. It certainly doesn't say anything about listening to voices, sure. It also says absolutely nothing about reading minds.

You yourself have complained at great detail about how the game doesn't explain things. This is one of those examples where that complaint is arguably valid. The game never presents any reasoning to Widget whatsoever. It just says that he "sometimes says what I'm thinking." Where does he get that information from? No one questions it during the course of the game, so we don't know. Saying that he reads minds is as completely unbased in evidence as saying he obtains information from voices, and much more farfetched, I might add.

AND, one more point is that Athena isn't sure how Widget works, either. The only person that knows for a fact how Widget functions and what it bases its assumptions on was Metis, and she's dead.

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Thinking to himself still counts when the audience can see the inner monologue. It is still showering with praise to the audience.



Her personality flaws DO only exist to elicit a 'care' response from us, that is, to make her seem vulnerable so we sympathise with her. Hence her 'breakdown' animation where she cuddles herself and shakes. That problem is probably even sorted considering the finale of case 5. Being headstrong and jumping the gun isn't a major enough flaw to balance out all her massive benefits.

I didn't think it was so hard to understand.



It's like you didn't read my update...but I know you did yet the information you put forward is contradictory.



I had just said:


No mouth movement....inner monologue. Widget spoke without prior speaking.



It says absolutely nothing about reading minds? "He sometimes blurts out what I'm thinking"....how else do you propose Widget gets that information?

It's the ONLY clue therefore it's all we have to go on, therefore it is how it is. "No matter how improbable" that is the fact we've been presented with.

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In that case, show me an example where Phoenix thinks to himself "Oh boy, Athena's so great, we would have all lost if it wasn't for her, yadda yadda yadda"

At this point, if you have any evidence of this at all, I'll take it.


That's what I assumed, but there were grammar issues in the last one, so I wanted to make sure before responding to something.

At any rate, yes, you're right, if her only flaws were being headstrong and jumping the gun, then sure. She has a myraid of other flaws as well, and I'm getting somewhat tired of listing them, so if you're curious, you can go read either post where I mentioned them.


I actually didn't, believe it or not (if you're referring to the double post), at least not before making my post. It just happened to work out that you pre-empted most of my arguments.


....oh...right...

...your honor, I'll take my penalty now.


Let me ask you a question in return. Are YOU seriously suggesting that by the year 2027, people will have developed a technology that somehow reads minds?

As I said before, Athena likely has little to no idea of the inner workings of Widget, unless she happened to take an engineering course in college as well. That "clue" is just Athena's way of stating things on the fly. It's little better than an on the fly, under pressure explanation from someone who probably understands it as well as your common person.

I personally don't know how it collects information, though I still think a combination of voices, gesture observation, and perhaps conversation collection is the best guess. If you're legitimately going to argue for "it reads people's minds," then we might as well quit arguing the point. You'll probably find spirit channeling to be easier to argue for scientifically than that.

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But Athena isn't the only one with a magical lawyer superpower. How come Nick and Polly don't get similarly praised?


I'd say reckless and emotional are more "traits" than "flaws." Even if I counted them as "flaws," I'd say they were relatively minor ones, that in no way make up for the heap of sterling accomplishments and aspects she has.

As for constantly needing reassurance, she is a pretty athletic well-liked eighteen year-old attorney psychologist with hyper-advanced technology and magic superpowers. She has no reason to feel insecure. I see the constant need for attention as more of a "mary sue trait" than a legitimate character flaw.


Pearl is kind and smart and stuff, yeah, but she isn't any of those things to the point of being super-rare. Except for her spiritual power, she's just a regular little girl. ...I must admit that I don't have a coherent, cogent argument to excuse her being a prodigy, but to inelegantly just lay out my basic thoughts, I feel like spiritual power was something she was just born with; it wasn't something she "acquired" like Athena and her knowledge in law/psychology.
(And about spirit channeling not being scientifically explainable, there's still an origin of sorts, and we have plenty of rules and lore about it and whatnot. The writers have put a lot more effort and worldbuilding into spirit channeling than they have into Athena's power, which came out of nowhere.)


I haven't said this before, but I guess I personally find it hard to believe that everyone's true emotions are always in everything they say all the time, and Athena "just hears" them without any sort of "supernatural" element to it.

Also I was under the impression that Athena's power was necessary for Widget/Mood Matrix, and it was more than just Athena hearing when it was appropriate to use


I guess they changed it in the translation, but in the Japanese version, Widget specifically says the word "prosecutor" in both of his first two lines.

In fact, when Widget says "prosecutor" in his first line, it's the very first time that word is used in the game. (Okay, technically second, with the first being when Athena thinks it in the previous textbox.)


But how does it know what she's thinking? By reading her mind. Also note that they used the word "thinking" as opposed to something like "feeling."


Off-Topic: Exactly where/how do you get all these screenshots? xD

EDIT: THE YUUSAKU SMILIE WAS CHANGED TO RON. WHAAAAA
WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?!

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It's late, I'll have a gander tomorrow when I have time and get back to you on it.



I don't even consider them big flaws those two, those are the two that might iron out with experience but they are just kinda charming on their own since they don't have any significant negative consequence. I was referring more to her breaking down totally as a flaw. THAT has presumably been ironed out by her overcoming the source of the problem in case 5.



Yes...everything else about Athena is unbelievable and amazing why not this? The evidence all points to it being a device that can read Athena's brainwaves and mental thoughts piecing together emotional and contextual information to produce a voice.

Your theory about microphones and cameras doesn't really hold up, it can analyse without any vocal or especially visual input. It could possibly analyse her emotional state based on her heart rate or some other biological stuff like that but there's no way it could devise her thoughts using microphones and cameras.

It's alright to throw in the towel on this one, the facts are Athena just has a ridiculous amount of unbelievable good points. Widget is just one of the stronger ones.

THOUGH IT WOULD MAKE PERFECT SENSE IF SHE WAS AN ANDROID

Also Yuusaku has been the Ron Smilie for ages OH GOD I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN!

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I would argue Apollo's bracelet is equally "fawned" over. There's plenty of discussion about it later on in the game.

As for Phoenix's Magatama...he never really announces to anyone "Hey, I'm using a Magatama to break your Psyche Locks! Get ready for my super power!"

It's not as out in the open as Athena's is.


That's a sekkkkkkrrrriiiitttttt (insert Scuttlebutt box here)


I think this goes back to something that BP mentioned a while ago, which is believability in context of the universe. In AA land, it's kind of an accepted custom by now for European lawyers to all start at ridiculously young ages, since the law institutions over there have now all decided that they could start doing something productive with daycare or something. There hasn't been anything introduced that would remotely suggest mind reading as a feasible possibility though, and since Athena's description of it is so unclear, I don't see enough reason to believe in something as far fetched as that.

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