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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Actually, I was talking about realism in social structures - these are set by humans themselves and I don't see anything wrong with a world, where it works differently. Strange, I thought I wanted to make that much clear in that post.

Realism about the stuff I brought up... Holograms displayed outside, and shadow working like suddenly casted darkness instead of like, well, like covered light. This stuff from GK goes against basic of physics, really. It's like light dimming out other light and while it is technically possible, it's under very different circumstances...

Anyone up to defining how light works in Ace Attorney games? These things literally hurt... scientifically speaking.

---

The thing about Athena's role... Actually, I don't really see her not being in any of these cases, aside from Case 4. Actually, it would be a great move to remove her from Case 4 - it would add lots to the suspense, forcing players to ask themselves "why isn't Athena with us...?" and then giving her something, that at first glance looks like the answer.

Still, I don't know why I'm the only person who sees that her involvement was necessary. :ron:
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Nearavex wrote:
Actually, I was talking about realism in social structures - these are set by humans themselves and I don't see anything wrong with a world, where it works differently. Strange, I thought I wanted to make that much clear in that post.

Realism about the stuff I brought up... Holograms displayed outside, and shadow working like suddenly casted darkness instead of like, well, like covered light. This stuff from GK goes against basic of physics, really. It's like light dimming out other light and while it is technically possible, it's under very different circumstances...

Anyone up to defining how light works in Ace Attorney games? These things literally hurt... scientifically speaking.

---

The thing about Athena's role... Actually, I don't really see her not being in any of these cases, aside from Case 4. Actually, it would be a great move to remove her from Case 4 - it would add lots to the suspense, forcing players to ask themselves "why isn't Athena with us...?" and then giving her something, that at first glance looks like the answer.

Still, I don't know why I'm the only person who sees that her involvement was necessary. :ron:


Yeah but there's 'Realism' and then there's 'realistic to the setting'.

Consider a world where gravity is lowered substantially. Making incredible leaps across chasms is 'realistic' in that setting if not the real world. FLYING is not.

So when we consider the legal system in Ace Attorney we consider young attorneys with connections and support 'realistic' for the setting. It's been shown that with connections and support and presumably some actual intelligence someone can become a lawyer at a young age. Athena has none of those things as far as we know and she achieved it.

Other people set this standard in the Ace Attorney Universe and therefore the likes of Klavier and Franziska are reasonable, it's 'realistic' for that setting.

Athena achieve it with none of that and is therefore unrealistic for the setting.

Also since you brought it up, the thing about an Android learning things faster is they don't need to go through schools, it'd just be uploading programs onto a computer essentially and they'd have all the knowledge they need.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
Of Course....

Spoiler:
If she was an Android it explains a lot of these things. Her personality could be reprogrammed to overcome the trauma, similarly she could have the data programmed into her to explain her miraculous learning career. Also explains how she didn't know the difference between humans and robots...and thought the robotic operating table was how you 'fixed' people because it had always been that way for her.

You're going to bring this up every time a new member steps into this thread, aren't you? :p

JesusMonroe wrote:
I don't think this makes Athena a sue, though. It's just something the writers didn't think through. Franziska was 13, Klavier was 17, Yumihiko was 18, Lang was 19, Edgeworth was 20. "What's wrong with another young character entering a professional field at a young age?" I'm pretty sure that was the mindset and then they added the other stuff about her character without thinking about how the implications of how unlikely it made her scenario. They just used her age to fit the story they wanted to tell and not think about how things might not mesh. I don't think they wrote her to be 18 so she'd be more "amazing." Plus, the law in AA isn't portrayed realistically anyway, so I think it was likely the writers thought it wouldn't be a big deal

These are the same guys who ignored the timeline hole regarding Phoenix's seven/eight-years-ago trial. "Mystery over reality" is a motto pretty well ingrained into detective fiction. This wasn't the issue people had anyway.

Nearavex wrote:
Realism about the stuff I brought up... Holograms displayed outside, and shadow working like suddenly casted darkness instead of like, well, like covered light. This stuff from GK goes against basic of physics, really. It's like light dimming out other light and while it is technically possible, it's under very different circumstances...

Anyone up to defining how light works in Ace Attorney games? These things literally hurt... scientifically speaking.

I say it's through the magic of green screen. ^_^

Quote:
The thing about Athena's role... Actually, I don't really see her not being in any of these cases, aside from Case 4. Actually, it would be a great move to remove her from Case 4 - it would add lots to the suspense, forcing players to ask themselves "why isn't Athena with us...?" and then giving her something, that at first glance looks like the answer.

Still, I don't know why I'm the only person who sees that her involvement was necessary. :ron:

Well, given that these cases were supposedly written around a character that Athena fits to a T, it's only natural that Athena's involvement was necessary. If they were written to be separate, loosely tied by theme only like in GS2, then fitting a new assistant character would be that much more difficult. Of course, Capcom saw the drop in sales regarding GS2 as opposed to GS1 or 3. They were trying to avoid doing that again.

To be fair, I don't think most of the dissatisfied fans really understand why they don't like about her. To say she was "force-fed" to us isn't quite accurate, though she certainly bounded in from nowhere. To say that she wasn't well written, well, that's a little vague. Her background was rather hastily built, but she fit her role in the story just right. I think she didn't fit her role as an assistant that well, but that is more of an issue with how she's presented. In fact, I think that pretty much sums it up. "How she's been presented" is just as important as how she's built. That, and the trailers were very misleading.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Quote:
You're going to bring this up every time a new member steps into this thread, aren't you? :p


:P Wherever a discussion about Athena comes up *I* will be there to preach the truth.
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Pierre wrote:
Yeah but there's 'Realism' and then there's 'realistic to the setting'.

Consider a world where gravity is lowered substantially. Making incredible leaps across chasms is 'realistic' in that setting if not the real world. FLYING is not.

So when we consider the legal system in Ace Attorney we consider young attorneys with connections and support 'realistic' for the setting. It's been shown that with connections and support and presumably some actual intelligence someone can become a lawyer at a young age. Athena has none of those things as far as we know and she achieved it.

Other people set this standard in the Ace Attorney Universe and therefore the likes of Klavier and Franziska are reasonable, it's 'realistic' for that setting.

Athena achieve it with none of that and is therefore unrealistic for the setting.

Also since you brought it up, the thing about an Android learning things faster is they don't need to go through schools, it'd just be uploading programs onto a computer essentially and they'd have all the knowledge they need.

I know how that "theory" of yours works, don't bother. I just think it is idea nowhere as smart as it pretends to be. I heard than headcanons were meant to serve as an improvement to the work of fiction? Well, from my point of view it does the exact opposite, especially while being bombarded with it.

Klavier actually is more unrealistic - with his attitude, I can't picture him being a hard-worker. But then, here he is, stepping in as a 17-year-old prodigy who is both prosecutor and popular rock-star... really?

That, and do you really picture Kristoph helping Klavier in any way...? I don't. Since there don't seem to be any real signs of Kristoph helping Klavier, there are also no real sings of either support or connections you claimed Klavier had.

Pushing Klavier aside, Athena does have a legal support - it's Phoenix, and unlike in Klavier's case, Phoenix mentoring Athena is canon.

Disbarred or not, he still had a big influence in the world of law (mastermind behind the Jurist System... hello?), that and his help, mixed up with Athena's hard work driven by the desire to save Simon together make her career in no way "unrealistic within the setting".
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Nearavex wrote:
Actually, I was talking about realism in social structures - these are set by humans themselves and I don't see anything wrong with a world, where it works differently. Strange, I thought I wanted to make that much clear in that post.

Realism about the stuff I brought up... Holograms displayed outside, and shadow working like suddenly casted darkness instead of like, well, like covered light. This stuff from GK goes against basic of physics, really. It's like light dimming out other light and while it is technically possible, it's under very different circumstances...

The hologram could've been a very dark green color that got brighter due to the light around the area. Shadows are part of the simulation

Keep in mind that it's a videogame in the end, though. Things like the Magatma, bracelet, Little Thief, and Mood Matrix aren't "realistic" but it's just a game and if you want to focus on realism, you'd never play the series. Besides, what you're criticizing is Little Thief and not really something that can be extended to Kay. All she does is hold it
Pierre wrote:
Other people set this standard in the Ace Attorney Universe and therefore the likes of Klavier and Franziska are reasonable, it's 'realistic' for that setting.

Klavier keeps getting brought up and I just want to say that given what we know, I don't think Kristoph would "help" Klavier get his law license. I can see Klavier doing it just to up his brother and Kristoph having clear resentment over it. Nevertheless, we don't really know anything about Klavier's study habits so it's not unrealistic to say he could've gotten it without his brother anyway. Just something I wanted to bring up
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
These are the same guys who ignored the timeline hole regarding Phoenix's seven/eight-years-ago trial
[/quote]
What's that? Is it something with Mason System?

Last edited by JesusMonroe on Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Nearavex wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Yeah but there's 'Realism' and then there's 'realistic to the setting'.

Consider a world where gravity is lowered substantially. Making incredible leaps across chasms is 'realistic' in that setting if not the real world. FLYING is not.

So when we consider the legal system in Ace Attorney we consider young attorneys with connections and support 'realistic' for the setting. It's been shown that with connections and support and presumably some actual intelligence someone can become a lawyer at a young age. Athena has none of those things as far as we know and she achieved it.

Other people set this standard in the Ace Attorney Universe and therefore the likes of Klavier and Franziska are reasonable, it's 'realistic' for that setting.

Athena achieve it with none of that and is therefore unrealistic for the setting.

Also since you brought it up, the thing about an Android learning things faster is they don't need to go through schools, it'd just be uploading programs onto a computer essentially and they'd have all the knowledge they need.

I know how that "theory" of yours works, don't bother. I just think it is idea nowhere as smart as it pretends to be. I heard than headcanons were meant to serve as an improvement to the work of fiction? Well, from my point of view it does the exact opposite, especially while being bombarded with it.

Klavier actually is more unrealistic - with his attitude, I can't picture him being a hard-worker. But then, here he is, stepping in as a 17-year-old prodigy who is both prosecutor and popular rock-star... really?

That, and do you really picture Kristoph helping Klavier in any way...? I don't. Since there don't seem to be any real signs of Kristoph helping Klavier, there are also no real sings of either support or connections you claimed Klavier had.

Pushing Klavier aside, Athena does have a legal support - it's Phoenix, and unlike in Klavier's case, Phoenix mentoring Athena is canon.

Disbarred or not, he still had a big influence in the world of law (mastermind behind the Jurist System... hello?), that and his help, mixed up with Athena's hard work driven by the desire to save Simon together make her career in no way "unrealistic within the setting".


Actually Klavier has been shown to be incredibly hard working and caring towards his profession ala when the slightest thing goes wrong in his music. Just because he doesn't present as stern and professional doesn't mean he doesn't care.

Also where is it said Phoenix 'mentored' Athena? I remember discussing this and the closest we got is that he met her when younger and inspired her. Which can mean anything really but its certainly not a guarantee of support or mentorship.

True Klavier wasn't supported as such and he is pushing the boundaries of belief. However unlike Athena he has no obstacles that we know of (ala childhood trauma and poor attendance) and could have been studying his whole life for it. Athena has obstacles barring her path AND only started looking at a law career at the age of 11-12.

If Klavier is pushing it then Athena is just unacceptable.
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Pierre wrote:
Also where is it said Phoenix 'mentored' Athena? I remember discussing this and the closest we got is that he met her when younger and inspired her. Which can mean anything really but its certainly not a guarantee of support or mentorship.

Closest we'll get, I guess. Evidence of support, but not mentorship
http://youtu.be/nfKDA8DJEXc?t=4m33s
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I've never understood why people bring up Klavier or Franziska on a thread about Athena as if it made their arguments valid. Their ages have always bothered me, and I've never been a fan of neither character; all this has diddly squat to do with Athena, however.

If you just take a minute to think about Athena's role in all the cases, how much we learn about her in one game and just how much the game revolves around her in general with the final case being the crème de la crème, you should at least understand where we're coming from.

I also think she's insultingly bland as a character, and an unimaginative one at that; a young, perky assistant with a dark past? I swear, that sounds vaguely familiar...
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Closest we'll get, I guess. Evidence of support, but not mentorship
http://youtu.be/nfKDA8DJEXc?t=4m33s

Strange how you say "but not mentorship", when Pearls asks him specifically about that and Phoenix agrees...

That, and how the fact she had obstacles mean anything? What is so bad about her overcoming those, once she has a goal to strive for and legal support? :ron: It's like you were going to go, walk up to the young Athena and shout "YOU CAN'T BE SUCCESSFUL, YOU WERE TRAUMATIZED"

But she doesn't have any of it. The headphones she wore fixed her problems with poor attendance and interaction with others, the traumatizing past was locked behind the black psyche-locks, I'm not sure what obstacles are then, after that.
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Nearavex wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Closest we'll get, I guess. Evidence of support, but not mentorship
http://youtu.be/nfKDA8DJEXc?t=4m33s

Strange how you say "but not mentorship", when Pearls asks him specifically about that and Phoenix agrees...

That, and how the fact she had obstacles mean anything? What is so bad about her overcoming those, once she has a goal to strive for and legal support? :ron: It's like you were going to go, walk up to the young Athena and shout "YOU CAN'T BE SUCCESSFUL, YOU WERE TRAUMATIZED"

But she doesn't have any of it. The headphones she wore fixed her problems with poor attendance and interaction with others, the traumatizing past was locked behind the black psyche-locks, I'm not sure what obstacles are then, after that.


His answer is "Yeah, something like that..." I don't buy it as evidence he was with her all those years...in fact considering it's likely he was in his hobo-disgrace period all those years ago it's doubtful the influence he'd had anyway.

However there's no denying the amount of hints they drop there it looks like it'll be a case in a future Ace Attorney game they are teasing. He "Helped her out of a Jam" which doesn't spell long-lasting support, odds are she was probably accused of another incident or something over abroad.

It's not really legal support as much as "You go for it!" Also yeah...obstacles get in the way, it's not "YOU CAN'T BE SUCCESSFUL" but it's not 'realistic to the setting' to be THAT SUCCESSFUL when you have so many barriers.

If Franziska is the most prestigious prodigy of prestige with all the help she had and no massive problems in her way then Athena is the Legendary Ace Attorney Level 4 capable of looking through the newspaper and rendering "Not Guilty" Verdicts via willpower without leaving the office.
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Nearavex wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Closest we'll get, I guess. Evidence of support, but not mentorship
http://youtu.be/nfKDA8DJEXc?t=4m33s

Strange how you say "but not mentorship", when Pearls asks him specifically about that and Phoenix agrees...

Because I saw that line as Pearl inquiring about their current relationship. I didn't see it as evidence of Phoenix mentoring her. It could be used as evidence for mentorship, but it's too vague. It's at least evidence of inspirational support, like O said

I agree with Pierre about it hinting at a future case so we'll see exactly what it means in the tutorial for GS6 I guess
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Pearl was probably interested in Phoenix's and Athena's relationship because she suspected she was his special someone.

Of course Phoenix is vague about his disbarred years. That mysterious 7 year gap is one of AJ's problems.

...And Athena also mentioned something about visiting different countries to study for her badge? I don't even want to think of the logistics of that. Maybe she or Phoenix found a loophole to get a badge faster.
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MBr wrote:
Pearl was probably interested in Phoenix's and Athena's relationship because she suspected she was his special someone.

I... don't really think so... :oops:
MBr wrote:
...And Athena also mentioned something about visiting different countries to study for her badge? I don't even want to think of the logistics of that. Maybe she or Phoenix found a loophole to get a badge faster.

Yeah, Klavier mentioned that too - he studied in Germany specifically to get his badge faster. Europe's legal system is even more broken than Japanifornia one, hahah.
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
These are the same guys who ignored the timeline hole regarding Phoenix's seven/eight-years-ago trial

What's that? Is it something with Mason System?

T&T ended in the year 2019 with 3-5. That leaves April of 2019 as Phoenix's last trial before disbarment. Seven years after that, and the timeline would hit 2026. However, several instances when it is brought up in 4-4, whenever Nick brings up Zak's visit back in 4-1, he acts like it's only been six-and-some years. The ages in the Court Record also suggest they live in the year 2025 instead. They skipped seven years since the beginning of T&T, rather than the end, but Phoenix's last trial could only have been in 2019.

Therefore, by dividing by zero and breaking the time-space continuum, Nick was able to travel through time via the Mason System and set up an entire jury just for Kristoph despite technically being unemployed. Oh, and Edgey helped... somehow. Likewise, Athena was inspired to break all regulations of educational systems. After all, if some unemployed guy can do it, so can she!

That is all.

Thane wrote:
I've never understood why people bring up Klavier or Franziska on a thread about Athena as if it made their arguments valid. Their ages have always bothered me, and I've never been a fan of neither character; all this has diddly squat to do with Athena, however.

If you just take a minute to think about Athena's role in all the cases, how much we learn about her in one game and just how much the game revolves around her in general with the final case being the crème de la crème, you should at least understand where we're coming from.

I also think she's insultingly bland as a character, and an unimaginative one at that; a young, perky assistant with a dark past? I swear, that sounds vaguely familiar...

The games more or less have always revolved around the protagonist's assistants or associates, rather than the protagonists themselves. It's just how mystery fiction works, really. But squeezing Nick into the limelight again is better highlighted when he's not in it. That attention does better on the other two that work for him, and their partnership really does work. Perhaps what Apollo was missing all that time in his game was someone who he could tutor, instead of always relying on Nick to do the talking.

Meanwhile, Athena's "badly written character" lies more in how little potential investment we can expect out of her for future installments. The point that she's rather bland comes with territory and it varies greatly depending on circumstances. I can't find a suitable spot to stand on anymore, but I remain stoutly on the "now what's in it for her" end.

MBr wrote:
Pearl was probably interested in Phoenix's and Athena's relationship because she suspected she was his special someone.

Lies. Pearly will forever be true to her OTP. She just doesn't force it down people's throats now.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
However, several instances when it is brought up in 4-4, whenever Nick brings up Zak's visit back in 4-1, he acts like it's only been six-and-some years.

I'm curious; what are you referring to? I can only remember the game mentioning that 4-1 takes place exactly 7 years after Zak's trial.
Spoiler: 4-4
<Phoenix>
‥‥あれから何年たちますか。
6年、かな。
...How many years has it been
now? Six?

<Zak>
あと3日で、
まるまる7年になる。
In exactly three days from
now, it will be seven.

---

<Apollo>
ある人物が“行方不明”になって、
一定の期間が過ぎた場合‥‥
Once a person is classified
missing for a certain period
of time...

その人物は“死亡”したことになる。
‥‥そういうことですね?
...they're considered legally
deceased, correct?

<Valant>
‥‥そのとおり。
よくご存じだ。半ソデのヒトよ。
...In all absoluteness. Those
rolled-up sleeves conceal your
competence well, young man!

その“期間”‥‥
それが、すなわち7年なのですよ。
That "certain period of time"
of which you speak... is
seven years.

<Trucy>
あ‥‥‥
Ah...

<Valant>
つまり、みぬき嬢‥‥
言いにくいことではあるが。
Yes, Miss Trucy... Though it
pains me to say it.

今年の、春‥‥4月。
This past Spring... April
to be precise, was the time.

あなたの父上は、法律的に
“死亡”したことになるのです。
Your father was legally
declared deceased.
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Jozerick wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
However, several instances when it is brought up in 4-4, whenever Nick brings up Zak's visit back in 4-1, he acts like it's only been six-and-some years.

I'm curious; what are you referring to? I can only remember the game mentioning that 4-1 takes place exactly 7 years after Zak's trial.
Spoiler: 4-4
<Phoenix>
‥‥あれから何年たちますか。
6年、かな。
...How many years has it been
now? Six?

<Zak>
あと3日で、
まるまる7年になる。
In exactly three days from
now, it will be seven.

---

<Apollo>
ある人物が“行方不明”になって、
一定の期間が過ぎた場合‥‥
Once a person is classified
missing for a certain period
of time...

その人物は“死亡”したことになる。
‥‥そういうことですね?
...they're considered legally
deceased, correct?

<Valant>
‥‥そのとおり。
よくご存じだ。半ソデのヒトよ。
...In all absoluteness. Those
rolled-up sleeves conceal your
competence well, young man!

その“期間”‥‥
それが、すなわち7年なのですよ。
That "certain period of time"
of which you speak... is
seven years.

<Trucy>
あ‥‥‥
Ah...

<Valant>
つまり、みぬき嬢‥‥
言いにくいことではあるが。
Yes, Miss Trucy... Though it
pains me to say it.

今年の、春‥‥4月。
This past Spring... April
to be precise, was the time.

あなたの父上は、法律的に
“死亡”したことになるのです。
Your father was legally
declared deceased.

Thanks for the script. It exactly points out the inconsistency I was talking about, but didn't word correctly.

Zak should say "six years" rather than seven to conform with the CR profiles. It's obviously not an error in the script, given Valant's dialogue here, but that only confirms it as a plothole. Since it's only by the profiles that we get an idea of which year the game takes place in, we could either write off this difference as a year less than it's supposed to be and pretend they're all idiots, or write off the ages of all returning characters from the trilogy in the Court Record for every other game thereafter. No doubt, Capcom will continue to base their timeline on the Court Record and probably won't ever correct this little oversight. So, I choose the former option because it doesn't cause a segmentation fault that's constantly carried over.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Thane wrote:
I've never understood why people bring up Klavier or Franziska on a thread about Athena as if it made their arguments valid. Their ages have always bothered me, and I've never been a fan of neither character; all this has diddly squat to do with Athena, however.

If you just take a minute to think about Athena's role in all the cases, how much we learn about her in one game and just how much the game revolves around her in general with the final case being the crème de la crème, you should at least understand where we're coming from.

I also think she's insultingly bland as a character, and an unimaginative one at that; a young, perky assistant with a dark past? I swear, that sounds vaguely familiar...

The games more or less have always revolved around the protagonist's assistants or associates, rather than the protagonists themselves. It's just how mystery fiction works, really. But squeezing Nick into the limelight again is better highlighted when he's not in it. That attention does better on the other two that work for him, and their partnership really does work. Perhaps what Apollo was missing all that time in his game was someone who he could tutor, instead of always relying on Nick to do the talking.

Meanwhile, Athena's "badly written character" lies more in how little potential investment we can expect out of her for future installments. The point that she's rather bland comes with territory and it varies greatly depending on circumstances. I can't find a suitable spot to stand on anymore, but I remain stoutly on the "now what's in it for her" end.


While I definitely see your point and agree with you to an extent, Dual Destinies' premise is far too different to be compared to previous installments of the franchise. This was supposed to be the tale of Phoenix' return to law after having been disgraced and disbarred for over seven years, the phoenix rising from the ashes and all that stuff. Apollo Justice also literally ended with hints at future plot points, plot points which I might add really shouldn't be left hanging, although I guess that's a subjective statement.

However, what's not subjective is the fact that Apollo Justice was, in essence, a reboot of the franchise, and Dual Destinies is a reboot of a reboot, featuring Phoenix as the main character in all trailers while in actuality the real main character is someone who was never even hinted at existing in previous games and completely steals the show at the expense of many older characters who desperately needed more time in the spotlight.

Where Athena goes from here, nobody knows, obviously. Given what I've heard from the Japanese side of things, she's not the hit the developers obviously thought she was going to be, and that gives me hope she'll take on a much more passive role in the upcoming games. However, I really couldn't care less about what they choose to do with her, as I'm completely uninterested in her bad fanfic character. As long as she keeps out of the way of far more interesting characters who are in greater need of development, I'll be happy.

Of course, I would prefer it greatly if she simply disappeared, seeing as I think she sticks out like a sore thumb at the Wright Anything Agency. I'm also of the opinion of her dying could make for a good case, but creators' pets are never so easily disposed.
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I wrote this a bit earlier but didn't get to post it until now

Nearavex wrote:
That, and how the fact she had obstacles mean anything?

The problem is that they spend no time developing those obstacles, or giving any detail on how she got over them. The game just goes, "Seven years ago Athena was a reclusive, introverted little girl who barely went outside, was so naive she couldn't tell the difference between people and robots, who was horribly scarred and traumatized both mentally and emotionally, lost all close friends and family she had, and was dumped off in some foreign country that was presumably on the other side of the planet. Today she's a cheerful, outgoing, friendly, well-liked, successful lawyer-slash-psychology with magic powers and unique, incredible technology. How did she do it? ...HEY LOOK, PRETTY 3D MODELS. AREN'T THEY PRETTY?"

Compare this to, for example, Maya in 1-4. They set up and resolve an obstacle for her: her feelings of uselessness. In the climax of the second case, she reveals her channeling powers, saving Nick from the brink of defeat. Over the course of the third case she again channels Mia to help Nick, but begins to feel like this is all she's good for. In the fourth case, she becomes unable to channel, and gets plagued by the feelings of uselessness. (Moreover, her relationship with Nick getting edged out by his past with Edgey and Larry doesn't help either.) However, at the conclusion of the game, Nick helps her overcome this by pointing out what she herself has done for Nick. The game clearly develops the obstacle for Maya, and shows how it resolves it.

Obstacles are fine, and in fact necessary for character development... but Athena is a pretty terrible case of "tell, don't show", and it makes her seem half-baked, lazy, and Sue-ish as a character.
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I think another idea for "obstacles" is the fact that Athena doesn't really try to conquer them. The plot does it for her. Ema hires Nick to save her sister and uses her science tools to help him out. Kay is the first assistant to actively hunt for her parent's murderer. Athena has a goal (saving Simon) but does absolutely nothing to help him. She doesn't even search for the real killer of UR-1. She just gets arrested, Aura holds some hostages, and then Athena helps with the Mood Matrix, but she needed everybody else to do things for her first. Ema and Kay paved the way and they did enough to be helpful without doing absolutely everything
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I think another idea for "obstacles" is the fact that Athena doesn't really try to conquer them. The plot does it for her. Ema hires Nick to save her sister and uses her science tools to help him out. Kay is the first assistant to actively hunt for her parent's murderer. Athena has a goal (saving Simon) but does absolutely nothing to help him. She doesn't even search for the real killer of UR-1. She just gets arrested, Aura holds some hostages, and then Athena helps with the Mood Matrix, but she needed everybody else to do things for her first. Ema and Kay paved the way and they did enough to be helpful without doing absolutely everything


I gotta agree with you there, I like Athena, I really do but I don't really think she did anything to actually HELP Simon. Phoenix and Apollo sort of did all the work for her..
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shippersdreamer wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think another idea for "obstacles" is the fact that Athena doesn't really try to conquer them. The plot does it for her. Ema hires Nick to save her sister and uses her science tools to help him out. Kay is the first assistant to actively hunt for her parent's murderer. Athena has a goal (saving Simon) but does absolutely nothing to help him. She doesn't even search for the real killer of UR-1. She just gets arrested, Aura holds some hostages, and then Athena helps with the Mood Matrix, but she needed everybody else to do things for her first. Ema and Kay paved the way and they did enough to be helpful without doing absolutely everything


I gotta agree with you there, I like Athena, I really do but I don't really think she did anything to actually HELP Simon. Phoenix and Apollo sort of did all the work for her..


For someone so determined to save him that she built a great deal of her career on the premise, if it hadn't been for Aura forcing the trial then Simon's execution date would have came and went without incident.
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Pierre wrote:
shippersdreamer wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think another idea for "obstacles" is the fact that Athena doesn't really try to conquer them. The plot does it for her. Ema hires Nick to save her sister and uses her science tools to help him out. Kay is the first assistant to actively hunt for her parent's murderer. Athena has a goal (saving Simon) but does absolutely nothing to help him. She doesn't even search for the real killer of UR-1. She just gets arrested, Aura holds some hostages, and then Athena helps with the Mood Matrix, but she needed everybody else to do things for her first. Ema and Kay paved the way and they did enough to be helpful without doing absolutely everything


I gotta agree with you there, I like Athena, I really do but I don't really think she did anything to actually HELP Simon. Phoenix and Apollo sort of did all the work for her..


For someone so determined to save him that she built a great deal of her career on the premise, if it hadn't been for Aura forcing the trial then Simon's execution date would have came and went without incident.


Yeah I see you're point there, I really wish they handled that better..
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Thane wrote:
While I definitely see your point and agree with you to an extent, Dual Destinies' premise is far too different to be compared to previous installments of the franchise. This was supposed to be the tale of Phoenix' return to law after having been disgraced and disbarred for over seven years, the phoenix rising from the ashes and all that stuff. Apollo Justice also literally ended with hints at future plot points, plot points which I might add really shouldn't be left hanging, although I guess that's a subjective statement.

However, what's not subjective is the fact that Apollo Justice was, in essence, a reboot of the franchise, and Dual Destinies is a reboot of a reboot, featuring Phoenix as the main character in all trailers while in actuality the real main character is someone who was never even hinted at existing in previous games and completely steals the show at the expense of many older characters who desperately needed more time in the spotlight.

Where Athena goes from here, nobody knows, obviously. Given what I've heard from the Japanese side of things, she's not the hit the developers obviously thought she was going to be, and that gives me hope she'll take on a much more passive role in the upcoming games. However, I really couldn't care less about what they choose to do with her, as I'm completely uninterested in her bad fanfic character. As long as she keeps out of the way of far more interesting characters who are in greater need of development, I'll be happy.

Of course, I would prefer it greatly if she simply disappeared, seeing as I think she sticks out like a sore thumb at the Wright Anything Agency. I'm also of the opinion of her dying could make for a good case, but creators' pets are never so easily disposed.

To quote myself from somewhere else...

"Dual Destinies was quite obviously a damage control game, a compromise between both arcs. One that would:

  • put Phoenix back where he belongs,
  • keep Apollo’s character in the focus,
  • have some of the quirky nature of original trilogy’s characters,
  • have some of AJ’s dark atmosphere.

Athena helped out in balancing things, when it comes to the structure of Wright Anything Agency. The new characters served pretty much the same purpose."

You tend to ignore the relationships in the office in your criticism, which is most likely a major reason why Athena was brought up like she was in the first place. They had no way of bringing Phoenix back for him to not overshadow Apollo - and if they made attempts to do this other way, it would lead to "eh, cool, Phoenix got his badge back, now back to Apollo". What should we do to balance things out? That's when another person in the office comes into play.

Apollo needed a peer, or even perhaps someone with less experience than him, so that his would be merely "that guy under Phoenix". He needed someone he could help with his own experience - that's when Athena came in. Apollo is still under Phoenix, but at the very least, he's not the only one, which really makes all the difference.

Without this balancing factor, I shudder to think what would become of this game, really.
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Nearavex wrote:
Thane wrote:
While I definitely see your point and agree with you to an extent, Dual Destinies' premise is far too different to be compared to previous installments of the franchise. This was supposed to be the tale of Phoenix' return to law after having been disgraced and disbarred for over seven years, the phoenix rising from the ashes and all that stuff. Apollo Justice also literally ended with hints at future plot points, plot points which I might add really shouldn't be left hanging, although I guess that's a subjective statement.

However, what's not subjective is the fact that Apollo Justice was, in essence, a reboot of the franchise, and Dual Destinies is a reboot of a reboot, featuring Phoenix as the main character in all trailers while in actuality the real main character is someone who was never even hinted at existing in previous games and completely steals the show at the expense of many older characters who desperately needed more time in the spotlight.

Where Athena goes from here, nobody knows, obviously. Given what I've heard from the Japanese side of things, she's not the hit the developers obviously thought she was going to be, and that gives me hope she'll take on a much more passive role in the upcoming games. However, I really couldn't care less about what they choose to do with her, as I'm completely uninterested in her bad fanfic character. As long as she keeps out of the way of far more interesting characters who are in greater need of development, I'll be happy.

Of course, I would prefer it greatly if she simply disappeared, seeing as I think she sticks out like a sore thumb at the Wright Anything Agency. I'm also of the opinion of her dying could make for a good case, but creators' pets are never so easily disposed.

To quote myself from somewhere else...

"Dual Destinies was quite obviously a damage control game, a compromise between both arcs. One that would:

  • put Phoenix back where he belongs,
  • keep Apollo’s character in the focus,
  • have some of the quirky nature of original trilogy’s characters,
  • have some of AJ’s dark atmosphere.

Athena helped out in balancing things, when it comes to the structure of Wright Anything Agency. The new characters served pretty much the same purpose."

You tend to ignore the relationships in the office in your criticism, which is most likely a major reason why Athena was brought up like she was in the first place. They had no way of bringing Phoenix back for him to not overshadow Apollo - and if they made attempts to do this other way, it would lead to "eh, cool, Phoenix got his badge back, now back to Apollo". What should we do to balance things out? That's when another person in the office comes into play.

Apollo needed a peer, or even perhaps someone with less experience than him, so that his would be merely "that guy under Phoenix". He needed someone he could help with his own experience - that's when Athena came in. Apollo is still under Phoenix, but at the very least, he's not the only one, which really makes all the difference.

Without this balancing factor, I shudder to think what would become of this game, really.


I ignore nothing. There's a resemblence of an idea in what you've written, but it ultimately falls flat.

If Athena was indeed going to be someone who balanced out the game, then she did the exact opposite. She's the de facto main character of the game, being the only one with a major presence in every single case, having her storyline tied to the new prosecutor and being the final defendant which conveniently ties up all loose ends. Surely even you of all people must agree that time split between the three lawyers was handled clumsily?

Apollo didn't need anything of the sort. What he needed was to establish an identity of his own, and I daresay it would've been even better if it wasn't tied to another character. Dual Destinies established that Apollo didn't in fact live in a void before becoming a lawyer, and that I like, but we learn very little about his character that we didn't know beforehand, and he's constantly forgotten or brushed aside in favor of Athena (case in point: DLC case). How exactly does she act as a balancing factor?

I don't mean to get personal here, but is this really something you've written? This is the first time I've ever seen you post something that could be considered making a point, unlike your first posts in this very thread. I'd very much like it if you could explain your thoughts to me so that I may understand where you're coming from, because at this point I simply do not buy your arguments.

Oh, and keep the dark atmosphere of Apollo Justice? What dark atmosphere? This is pretty much the least dark entry we've had in the entire franchise for crying out loud.
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Apollo Justice wasn't dark at all, the cases weren't striking, and you could only examine the body of the victim in 1 of the 4 cases, showing the potentially gory stuff wasn't added, and more jovile things (Like snackoo-loving and glimmerous-fop-naming Ema). I think Dual Destinies was (thanks to Anime cutscenes, and the scene of case 2).

Athena was really added to drive the story, and I'm surprised Phoenix is said to be the 'main' character in the game, when Athena's story, and most of the important events revolve around her life/history. (Even the DLC case shoves off Apollo in favour of Phoenix and Athena)
Unlike other games, new recurring characters are people connected to the overarching plot, not centring/driving it. In AAI, Kay was wrapped up in Shih-Na's plot, after her father's death. It wasn't that Kay's dad was the main focus, and without Kay, a major crisis wouldn't have been averted, she was just there to support Edgeworth in finding the truth. (And don't get caught up on how Little Thief was necessary. It just sped up the process and made the gameplay more exciting. Those cases could've been solved by legitimate means, such as through photos of the state of the rooms, and getting a police warrant to search the haunted house.) The same can be said for Pearl. It's not that you need Pearl in JFA, it's that she happens to be both Maya's cousin, and connected to Morgan Fey, who was driving the story for T&T behind the scenes.

While I have grown a liking to Athena, she feels like a character that's going to re-appear, but not be significant (Like how Edgeworth only appears in case 4 of JFA. He's not central to the plot of said case, but he's not forgotten as a main character). I'd hope she replaces Trucy's role in DD as the "Go to for useless tips character" who hangs around the Wright Anything Agency, and may pop up in investigation now and then.

I'm still not sure how she's a Mary Sue, but I probably don't understand the concept of "Mary Sue" all that well. (She does have a mental breakdown, and it's Phoenix that saves the day for her. Without him, she would've lost the first case after just 10-20 minutes.)
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Athena did balance Phoenix's and Apollo's involvement in the game, but herself her own part of the spotlight as well, I agree.

Still, I really don't see anything bad about it. She is one of the three protagonists and I'm not sure how her presence exceeds that of, say Maya's or Trucy's. She appears in every case, but so does Phoenix and Apollo, not to mention that her roles in Case 4 or Case 5 were somehow passive (actually, that it's my own opinion that she could be removed from Case 4).

Case 1 features Apollo talking in the lobby, being attacked and leaving agency, Case 2 is Apollo's case, in Case 3 he provides Athena with assistance, in Case 4, his background is brought up and he defends for a first half of the case, in Case 5 - everything from his testimony onward.

Phoenix, on the other hand, appears more as a mentor figure, so he only steps in Cases 1, 4 and 5, when things get out of hand (Apollo in poor condition, Athena breaking down; Apollo taking a leave of absence; Case 5 in general). Still has some role in Case 3 and I believe his development as a agency's mentor is well rounded-up in Case 5.

Athena? She defends her friend in Case 1 and immediately fails (how Sue-ish of her), stays pretty much in the background for the rest of the case, then Case 2 comes by, so she's just doing usual perky assistant stuff, then in Case 3 she defends a friend, but her role in Case 4 and 5 is quite passive, until Simon's testimony comes by.

So, I honestly don't know how Athena is any worse. I'm pretty certain that if any person new to the series would play, theywouldn't see in any way Athena as standing out - maybe aside from her colors. Yellow is pretty standing out. She is one of the three protagonist, so it's natural that the game treats her as one...

About GS4's atmosphere, I stand corrected, then.
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Mijumaru wrote:
Apollo Justice wasn't dark at all, the cases weren't striking, and you could only examine the body of the victim in 1 of the 4 cases, showing the potentially gory stuff wasn't added, and more jovile things (Like snackoo-loving and glimmerous-fop-naming Ema). I think Dual Destinies was (thanks to Anime cutscenes, and the scene of case 2).

Athena was really added to drive the story, and I'm surprised Phoenix is said to be the 'main' character in the game, when Athena's story, and most of the important events revolve around her life/history. (Even the DLC case shoves off Apollo in favour of Phoenix and Athena)
Unlike other games, new recurring characters are people connected to the overarching plot, not connected/driving it. In AAI, Kay was wrapped up in Shih-Na's plot, after her father's death. It wasn't that Kay's dad died, and without her, a major crisis would've been averted, she was just there to support Edgeworth in finding the truth. (And don't get caught up on how Little Thief was necessary. It just sped up the process and made the gameplay more exciting. Those cases could've been solved by legitimate means, such as through photos of the state of the rooms, and getting a police warrant to search the haunted house.)

While I have grown a liking to Athena, she feels like a character that's going to re-appear, but not be significant (Like how Edgeworth only appears in case 4 of JFA. He's not central to the plot of said case, but he's not forgotten as a main character). I'd hope she replaces Trucy's role in DD as the "Go to for useless tips character" who hangs around the Wright Anything Agency, and may pop up in investigation now and then.

I'm still not sure how she's a Mary Sue, but I probably don't understand the concept of "Mary Sue" all that well. (She does have a mental breakdown, and it's Phoenix that saves the day for her. Without him, she would've lost the first case after just 10-20 minutes.)


The game starts with finding out the main character of the previous games has been a disgraced loser for seven years due to false accusations of forging evidence. That same case also forced him to not only adopt a little girl, but also befriend a sociopath who tirelessly stalked everyone involved who could somehow incriminate him.

It's not Majora's Mask dark, but there are some serious dark tones in the game, and there's a constant feeling of hopelessness brought out nicely by the soundtrack. Apollo Justice often feels like two incomplete games mashed together, but it's still far more memorable and darker than Dual Destinies could ever hope to be. Dual Destinies, for all its talk about being edgy, never delivers. People would be quick to point out Athena trying to "fix" her mother, but I could never take that seriously due to the sheer stupidity of it. The game suffers from the dreaded "tell, don't show" syndrome, while Apollo Justice was content with letting you uncover what the hell was going on bit by bit.

As for the Mary Sue part: it has never been a big part of the discussion here; no one has said that the reason for the controversy of Athena's character lies solely in her being the creator's pet. We who seem to have a bigger problem with Athena than most have always been of the opinion that the way she was written into the story is the problem, not her character.

However, she DOES have more common Sue traits than a lot of characters. If you take a quick glance at this here page, you'll see what I mean. Once again though, that has never been the primary reason for my dislike of her, although the final case does make her seem like a Black Hole Sue, seeing as pretty much every lingering plot thread is solved by her acquittal, but I digress.
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I don't see how she has more "Sue traits", than say, Maya or Kay, to be honest...
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Thane wrote:
As for the Mary Sue part: it has never been a big part of the discussion here; no one has said that the reason for the controversy of Athena's character lies solely in her being the creator's pet. We who seem to have a bigger problem with Athena than most have always been of the opinion that the way she was written into the story is the problem, not her character.

However, she DOES have more common Sue traits than a lot of characters. If you take a quick glance at this here page, you'll see what I mean. Once again though, that has never been the primary reason for my dislike of her, although the final case does make her seem like a Black Hole Sue, seeing as pretty much every lingering plot thread is solved by her acquittal, but I digress.

Thanks for clearing it up a little. I'm not saying it's the main reason people dislike her, I was just unsure about why that term is used when talking about her. (Some of that "Black Hole Sue" can kinda fit with her, but not to that extreme. :ron: )
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Mijumaru wrote:
Thane wrote:
As for the Mary Sue part: it has never been a big part of the discussion here; no one has said that the reason for the controversy of Athena's character lies solely in her being the creator's pet. We who seem to have a bigger problem with Athena than most have always been of the opinion that the way she was written into the story is the problem, not her character.

However, she DOES have more common Sue traits than a lot of characters. If you take a quick glance at this here page, you'll see what I mean. Once again though, that has never been the primary reason for my dislike of her, although the final case does make her seem like a Black Hole Sue, seeing as pretty much every lingering plot thread is solved by her acquittal, but I digress.

Thanks for clearing it up a little. I'm not saying it's the main reason people dislike her, I was just unsure about why that term is used when talking about her. (Some of that "Black Hole Sue" can kinda fit with her, but not to that extreme. :ron: )


Extreme? No, absolutely not. Far more similarities than necessary? Yes.

Her acquittal not only takes precedence over Trucy's kidnapping (I always forget they included that), but also saves Simon, leads to the Phantom and in so doing Clay's killer, which settles Apollo's minor subplot, the previously mentioned kidnapping and Aura's involvement, all while making sure her past is sorted out neatly.

There are more factors playing in, obviously, and like I said whether or not she's a Sue of any kind has never been that relevant to the discussion, but if someone were to accuse her of being a Black Hole Sue, I'd understand where they were coming from.
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You know, Dual Destinies always felt to me like a funny anime with dark moments but every other game in the series felt like a dark anime with funny moments. That's my .5 cents to the part of the discussion that people have stopped talking about
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Thane wrote:
The game starts with finding out the main character of the previous games has been a disgraced loser for seven years due to false accusations of forging evidence. That same case also forced him to not only adopt a little girl, but also befriend a sociopath who tirelessly stalked everyone involved who could somehow incriminate him.

It's not Majora's Mask dark, but there are some serious dark tones in the game, and there's a constant feeling of hopelessness brought out nicely by the soundtrack. Apollo Justice often feels like two incomplete games mashed together, but it's still far more memorable and darker than Dual Destinies could ever hope to be. Dual Destinies, for all its talk about being edgy, never delivers. People would be quick to point out Athena trying to "fix" her mother, but I could never take that seriously due to the sheer stupidity of it. The game suffers from the dreaded "tell, don't show" syndrome, while Apollo Justice was content with letting you uncover what the hell was going on bit by bit.

I'll give you the soundtrack... but I really don't see how AJ is that dark. Befriending said sociopath was another step Nick took toward catching the criminal who set him up. Whether or not he hoped to reform Kristoph is another story altogether and has no impact toward the final result. If anything, Nick's revenge plan was the darkest thing in that game. The victim of the troll ended up as the best troll there was, and the troll who trolled him got trolled... via legal ban-hammer. I may be oversimplifying it, but it's what I've taken from the game.

And I have to disagree on this too. AJ was not simply content with letting the players uncover everything themselves. The player was placed into Apollo's point of view, and he was being led by Phoenix, Klavier, Trucy, and even Kristoph to the end, even if he wasn't wholly aware of it. In fact, if Trucy was the main character instead, she would have done Apollo's job just as well.

At least in DD, Phoenix stopped leading him anywhere and let him run his own course. He had to lead Athena around, though, since she really had no idea how to help Blacky.
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"

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JesusMonroe wrote:
You know, Dual Destinies always felt to me like a funny anime with dark moments but every other game in the series felt like a dark anime with funny moments. That's my .5 cents to the part of the discussion that people have stopped talking about

I kind of agree with this, although in my own words I'd simply say I thought Dual Destinies felt more like a modern anime and the other games felt more like typical 90's/2000's animes. Some of Noriyuki Iwadare's music also has a lot of that spacy-peppy modern anime vibe, especially Athena's theme out of court. I kind of hate those, but then again I won't really say that's my critique of the game. It stays in with the times and objectively speaking that should be a good thing. Of course on the other hand I think one thing in this regard that makes DD bad is how it sometimes feels like it's way too heavy on anime cliches as well, rather than being completely original. The themes in 5-3 are so elementary and painfully standardized modern school-anime that I couldn't stop being a little annoyed at it. 5-2 on the other hand follows the Yokai popularity going on, and with games like Yokai Watch 2 taking off right now in Japan, I think it's a nice thing.

AJAA is aesthetically but also thematically dark, in its colors and its music, and the final case has some pretty serious themes of RL. An introverted girl suffering from social isolation, a man dying from cancer and Phoenix who was once at the top of the world who has now lost the status he seeked for three games. DD has some sappy talk about friendship but also goes deeper since it tackles death and loss in family and friendship.

Lol, that was all off-topic, which I only realised now.

I don't really have anything more to add about Athena's character that hasn't already been said, other than that I think people should stop calling her a Mary Sue because as can be seen when you scroll through the discussion, some people misinterpret it because there are so many different ways a character can be a Mary Sue and people disagree with each other because we all have our own idea of what a Mary Sue is, and TVTropes doesn't help much with it's awfully long list of "types of Sues".

I think regarding her age, that's gonna make us insane if we try to think hard about that. I don't see anyone questioning how the hell Franziska managed to become a prosecutor at the age of 13. It's all some weird idea Shu Takumi came up with where I guess the idea is that it should sound impressive that the prosecutors and defence attorneys skipped grades and whatnot because they were so smart they could get through education early. Idk, it's clearly meant to be campy and shouldn't be analyzed seriously like I've seen someone doing.

The point that Athena goes from an introverted child with a traumatic past to the cheery and everywhere-at-once Athena we get in all the cases of Dual Destinies with little to no explanation or buildup about how she overcame her problems is totally true though. I really don't think she's a well-written character. But I think to many people it's her charm and her spirit they like. I think a lot of the people who get offended every time we say Athena is poorly written are often those that don't really care about all the literary clockwork that goes on in storytelling. Hell, there are people who cried because Terry Fawles dies - a character who's merely introduced right before the start of the trial, and then dies at the end of it. There's no real character development with him or anything before the fact that makes his death emotional, but there's sad music and there's drama. I think Athena is objectively bad but many who disagree are people who don't really care about how she is written, looking from a literary perspective.
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Last edited by linkenski on Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
I'll give you the soundtrack... but I really don't see how AJ is that dark. Befriending said sociopath was another step Nick took toward catching the criminal who set him up. Whether or not he hoped to reform Kristoph is another story altogether and has no impact toward the final result. If anything, Nick's revenge plan was the darkest thing in that game. The victim of the troll ended up as the best troll there was, and the troll who trolled him got trolled... via legal ban-hammer. I may be oversimplifying it, but it's what I've taken from the game.

Well...it's because of the soundtrack

If we're going by storyline/script alone, then it's hard to say what game is the darkest. It'd be easier to pinpoint individual cases (1-4, 1-5, 2-4, 3-4, 4-1, 4-4, GK2-3, GK2-5). The soundtrack just added A LOT to Apollo Justice. I don't think it would be nearly as good of a game if it didn't have such a good one. I mean, I prefer other OSTs in the series, but out of every game, AJ's soundtrack probably complements the game the most. All the soundtracks in the series complement their respective games (for example, you couldn't swap PW's and JFA's soundtracks or AAI's and AAI2's) but with AJ it works so well that it makes me wonder whether the script or the music came first

I remember starting Case 1 of AJ at like 1 am and thinking, "It's a tutorial. It'll take a good hour and I'll be ready to sleep by the end of it." An hour in, I had a hunch and I decided to accuse Kristoph. I was really nervous and then this theme played:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUUOVls2GkM

Which just about made me shit my pants with fear. Plus, Kristoph's design worked pretty well because things like his smile became sadistic with new context and that one sprite where his glasses are fogged

Plus, you have other dark themes like "A Fate Smeared", "Forgotten Legend", "Solitary Confinement", and "Drew Studio."

And I just want to give special mention to Tell the Truth 2007
linkenski wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I kind of agree with this, although in my own words I'd simply say I thought Dual Destinies felt more like a modern anime and the other games felt more like typical 90's/2000's animes. Some of Noriyuki Iwadare's music also has a lot of that spacy-peppy modern anime vibe, especially Athena's theme out of court. I kind of hate those, but then again I won't really say that's my critique of the game. It stays in with the times and objectively speaking that should be a good thing. Of course on the other hand I think one thing in this regard that makes DD bad is how it sometimes feels like it's way too heavy on anime cliches as well, rather than being completely original. The themes in 5-3 are so elementary and painfully standardized modern school-anime that I couldn't stop being a little annoyed at it. 5-2 on the other hand follows the Yokai popularity going on, and with games like Yokai Watch 2 taking off right now in Japan, I think it's a nice thing.

I think regarding her age, that's gonna make us insane if we try to think hard about that. I don't see anyone questioning how the hell Franziska managed to become a prosecutor at the age of 13. It's all some weird idea Shu Takumi came up with where I guess the idea is that it should sound impressive that the prosecutors and defence attorneys skipped grades and whatnot because they were so smart they could get through education early. Idk, it's clearly meant to be campy and shouldn't be analyzed seriously like I've seen someone doing.

I don't really watch anime (besides Btooom! and like three episodes of SAO) so I can't really say much about the cliches that Dual Destinies had. I know we kindof disagree on each game's soundtrack so I won't linger on that either. I do think each soundtrack does its job for each game, though, and I do ultimately prefer Iwadare. It just kind of comes down what I like to hear and what gets me pumped up in the game

With Franziska, Takumi's thought process was, "Let's make this Prosecutor younger. That could be an interesting dynamic. Plus, she could have like a little sister relationship with Edgeworth. Cool, it's settled. She'll be 18. Wait, she needs to have a win streak or she won't be impressive. Fine, she became a Prosecutor when was 13. We'll have Nick lampshade that and we can move on." I don't think it's something that we're supposed to think too much about. Plus, I love Franzy :franny:
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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JesusMonroe wrote:
linkenski wrote:
I think regarding her age, that's gonna make us insane if we try to think hard about that. I don't see anyone questioning how the hell Franziska managed to become a prosecutor at the age of 13. It's all some weird idea Shu Takumi came up with where I guess the idea is that it should sound impressive that the prosecutors and defence attorneys skipped grades and whatnot because they were so smart they could get through education early. Idk, it's clearly meant to be campy and shouldn't be analyzed seriously like I've seen someone doing.

I don't really watch anime (besides Btooom! and like three episodes of SAO) so I can't really say much about the cliches that Dual Destinies had. I know we kindof disagree on each game's soundtrack so I won't linger on that either. I do think each soundtrack does its job for each game, though, and I do ultimately prefer Iwadare. It just kind of comes down what I like to hear and what gets me pumped up in the game

With Franziska, Takumi's thought process was, "Let's make this Prosecutor younger. That could be an interesting dynamic. Plus, she could have like a little sister relationship with Edgeworth. Cool, it's settled. She'll be 18. Wait, she needs to have a win streak or she won't be impressive. Fine, she became a Prosecutor when was 13. We'll have Nick lampshade that and we can move on." I don't think it's something that we're supposed to think too much about. Plus, I love Franzy :franny:

Well, technically, it was the same with Athena - she was supposed to be Apollo's junior partner, so they made her younger, 18-years-old and then they wanted to have her backstory happen around the time Phoenix was disbarred, which left us with seven-year gap.

Still, explaining how authors thought will not get us anywhere - I mean, in-universe explanations failed to explain these "errors" to the people criticizing the state of things, how will out-of-universe explanation help?

Either way, I don't really like, how people heavily bash Athena's existence, while there was nothing of the sort in regards to Klavier or Franziska. I know it was brought up enough times already, but I can't help, but to feel there's some hypocrisy in that. :ron:
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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The video game boy; the one who wins

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After the apocalypse, two things will be left: cockroaches and this discussion. Then the cockroaches will die.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Racing through the sky like a Missile

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Nearavex wrote:
Either way, I don't really like, how people heavily bash Athena's existence, while there was nothing of the sort in regards to Klavier or Franziska. I know it was brought up enough times already, but I can't help, but to feel there's some hypocrisy in that. :ron:

You clearly missed out on the debates on Klavier. There's plenty to search in the GS4 board, to this day. The ones over Franzy are way back in the early days of the forum, but the records are still there. It's just a hassle to search through those long character threads.

And then there were the debates about cases. I was even a part of one with Cat, and that didn't get us anywhere. Ah, good times.

GoingforMiles wrote:
After the apocalypse, two things will be left: cockroaches and this discussion. Then the cockroaches will die.

This is a matter beyond the reaches of time itself. The apocalypse has nothing on this.
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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The video game boy; the one who wins

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I was going to say that, but then I wouldn't have been able to draw the parallel to the cockroaches. Which was important.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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GoingforMiles wrote:
After the apocalypse, two things will be left: cockroaches and this discussion. Then the cockroaches will die.

/thread
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