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Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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So, one of the things I've noticed getting shot back and forth in the discussion threads is Athena's character and if she counts as Mary Sue or what have you.

My two cents on the issue: I don't think so, and here's why.

Spoiler: Whole game spoilers
I won't deny she's got some of the typical traits. Most everyone in the game except the villains like her, she appears out of nowhere (relatively speaking) and has most of the plot focused on her, she's got a special skill and is young for her profession... she does tick off a lot of the boxes.

But I think labeling her a straight-up Sue is a bit of a disservice. Despite all the above, she's still got flaws and weaknesses. In court, she needs support both emotionally and logically (note how many times Apollo helps out in 5-3), and in general she's suffering some serious PTSD from her past. This isn't just brushed away as "wow that's so sad Athena" without it ever really effecting her besides giving a quick chance for some sympathy; instead it seriously affects her ability to function in her profession. I mean, a Payne sent her into a nervous breakdown, just about.

And even her role in the plot is excusable to some degree. Dual Destinies is at the end of the day aiming to kick off a new chapter for the series, I think, so they wanted a focus for the story that was new as well. Did they go a bit overboard? Possibly. And if there were more returning characters/plotlines involved, it might cross the line into Sue territory (some say it does with her black Psyche-Locks), because then that gets to be more of a case of 'shoving a sudden new character into an established group'. But it's mostly a new story, and Athena is a new focus for it.

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Spoiler: 5-3 spoilers
I do agree with the part about her needing support, as she even needed Apollo's, Juniper's, Rei's and Chishio's support to help her prove Ichiro is guilty. I was pretty touched by that scene when I watched it. And doesn't she get aggravated easily by Ichiro's speech about justice and truth and whatnot?

Basically, she's definitely not perfect and doesn't really act like she needs no help from any of them, even though she does have some qualities of a Sue such as her being a young prodigy of sorts and her Mood Matrix being praised a lot.
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AnsweringNOW wrote:
Spoiler: 5-3 spoilers
I do agree with the part about her needing support, as she even needed Apollo's, Juniper's, Rei's and Chishio's support to help her prove Ichiro is guilty. I was pretty touched by that scene when I watched it. And doesn't she get aggravated easily by Ichiro's speech about justice and truth and whatnot?

Basically, she's definitely not perfect and doesn't really act like she needs no help from any of them, even though she does have some qualities of a Sue such as her being a young prodigy of sorts and her Mood Matrix being praised a lot.


You can't really berate Athena for being a prodigy, because while being a Lawyer at the age of 18 seems impressive, remember that this is Ace Attorney. In the FIRST FREAKING GAME, we learn that Miles Edgeworth became a prosecutor at the age of seventeen. In the second game, we learn that Franciska Von Karma became an attorney at the age of fourteen! Then we have Ema Skye as a lead homicide detective at the age of 25, and Pearl, a master channeler at the age of eight.

I hate Mary Sues more than anything, but Athena is not a mary sue. She's a great and fun character
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Spoiler:
I'm not berating her for being a young prodigy, I'm just noting that some people thought she was a Mary Sue because she was a young prodigy.
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Oh, I know. I was just addressing the concept in general.
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I dont see what the issue is, Mary Sue or not, maybe because i did'nt read the meaning of criticism people assume the term for.

She seems like a fantastic character well enough.
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Well Mary Sue is a vague term anyway. It originated meaning something very specific in fanfic (not canon, although 'new writers in someone else's story/characters' is sort of the same thing) and has since expanded into a far more expansive collection of concepts. TvTropes lists a zillion types of Sue and Sue-related tropes.

So in the end just arguing 'X is a Mary Sue' vs 'X isn't a Mary Sue' isn't a very good debate, because people won't agree in the first place about what 'Mary Sue' is, and at what point they become or stop being one. You can however point out that a character has specific writing problems including ones that are characteristics of the many types of 'Mary Sue' problems. Also, the cliche Mary Sue is of course the extreme end of all/some of these problems, and no professional writing will end up that bad (hopefully).There's no objective measure on exactly when something becomes a Mary Sue or not.

Hoping Athena isn't one of these: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue

But the examples given are always the extreme end of something. What really happens in those type of negative tropes, is it tends toward it enough to be disconcerting/poor writing, not the literal thing written there, which are only in those fanfics often written as a joke by trolls.
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I know what people mean but I don't see Athena as a flawless character. I've always like her, her design is pretty good, her personality is funny and interesting and I really like that she wasn't just an assistant like Maya but a deffense attorney as well.

Spoiler:
I also like her past, I didn't expect that. I knew that she somehow was related to Simon but not in that way. I liked the part when she used her Mood Matrix on him.

It was very hard for her but at the end she recovers and goes with Phoenix and Apollo to beat Phantom, last part was so cool.


I won't mind having her arround in the next game.
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DonteTheDA wrote:
You can't really berate Athena for being a prodigy, because while being a Lawyer at the age of 18 seems impressive, remember that this is Ace Attorney. In the FIRST FREAKING GAME, we learn that Miles Edgeworth became a prosecutor at the age of seventeen. In the second game, we learn that Franciska Von Karma became an attorney at the age of fourteen! Then we have Ema Skye as a lead homicide detective at the age of 25, and Pearl, a master channeler at the age of eight.

Edgey was 20 (and he was supposed to be a genius)
Franzy was 13 (and that's pretty much excused by being Manfred's daughter)
I don't think Ema is a "lead" homicide detective (I mean, she's in charge of the crime scenes, but I don't think she's that high up in the chain)
Pearl isn't a "master channeler", they simply state she has prodigy-levels of innate spiritual power

(Also, it was Klavier who became a prosecutor at 17. But I think he's a Stu too, so...)


I also think icer brings up a good point, in that you can't expect characters in professional stuff to reach fanfic levels of Sue-ness.

Anyway
Spoiler:
Bolt pretty much explains the case against Athena in his first paragraph. (Also, don't forget that she's not an attorney at 18; she's an attorney and psychologist at 18.)

But needing help in court don't seem like real flaws, because every AA protagonist always needs help from their companions. Athena getting tons of help from Apollo doesn't make Athena look needy when Apollo had needed tons of help from Athena in the previous case.

Plus it seems like her trauma/confidence issues have pretty much been solved by the end of the game.

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As I was probably the first one to coin the term, I'd better say something too ^^'

icer's absolutely right though, and I think that my definition for Mary Sue differs from most people, in the sense that I focus more the author representation / insertion aspect, rather than the flawless character aspect, which would account for the varying opinions.

Spoiler:
As such, I can't help but feel like Kokone is very artificial at moments. Besides the mentioned character traits, I think it doesn't help that her backstory mimics that of Ema, and that the player experiences her as 1) a narrating protagonist, 2) a playable protagonist (=/= the same as (1)), 3) assistent and 4) suspect and 5) witness. She is inserted practically everywhere in the structure, but it seems like the team was to eager to push her onto the player. They want the player, to be her, to see her as an assistent, to feel with her and to save her. Exactly like if someone tried to project him/herself in a story, and tries to do everything (also by 'sorta' mirroring old cases). Having to set up new chapter accounts for something, but every chapter could be more or less related to her, and then I ask the most important question, was it really needed to have her as a third protagonist (both playable and narrating)? I really can't help but feel she's inserted artificially in the universe. In the end though, it's the sum of things that make me think she's a Mary Sue.

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Quote:
Spoiler:
Bolt pretty much explains the case against Athena in his first paragraph. (Also, don't forget that she's not an attorney at 18; she's an attorney and psychologist at 18.)


Spoiler:
But then it's the same case as Franziska, because her mother was an expert in psychology, that's why she taught Simon, and Athena had great powers to see emotions when she was little. She only had to learn to control them and use them in court.

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Bad Player wrote:
DonteTheDA wrote:
You can't really berate Athena for being a prodigy, because while being a Lawyer at the age of 18 seems impressive, remember that this is Ace Attorney. In the FIRST FREAKING GAME, we learn that Miles Edgeworth became a prosecutor at the age of seventeen. In the second game, we learn that Franciska Von Karma became an attorney at the age of fourteen! Then we have Ema Skye as a lead homicide detective at the age of 25, and Pearl, a master channeler at the age of eight.

Edgey was 20 (and he was supposed to be a genius)
Franzy was 13 (and that's pretty much excused by being Manfred's daughter)
I don't think Ema is a "lead" homicide detective (I mean, she's in charge of the crime scenes, but I don't think she's that high up in the chain)
Pearl isn't a "master channeler", they simply state she has prodigy-levels of innate spiritual power

(Also, it was Klavier who became a prosecutor at 17. But I think he's a Stu too, so...)


I also think icer brings up a good point, in that you can't expect characters in professional stuff to reach fanfic levels of Sue-ness.

Anyway
Spoiler:
Bolt pretty much explains the case against Athena in his first paragraph. (Also, don't forget that she's not an attorney at 18; she's an attorney and psychologist at 18.)

But needing help in court don't seem like real flaws, because every AA protagonist always needs help from their companions. Athena getting tons of help from Apollo doesn't make Athena look needy when Apollo had needed tons of help from Athena in the previous case.

Plus it seems like her trauma/confidence issues have pretty much been solved by the end of the game.



I need to interject, because you're misrepresenting the character. Kokone is not a "psychologist", she's a lawyer who uses psychology. She didn't go to Med School, she didn't get an MD. Furthermore, a playable character needs some level of competence, seeing as they have to, y'know, win the case. And when you say "real flaws", I'm not seeing what makes Athena any more of a Sue than Phoenix. Phoenix, who can be hit by trucks and fall off a bridge and survive. Phoenix, who ALWAYS has things turn out in his favor through a stroke of luck. Phoenix, whose personal trauma was the vast majority of the focus in Apollo Justice.

See, you and Ash seem upset that Athena gets a large amount of the spotlight in this game. But I guarantee you if she was just some lawyer who showed up people would complain about her having nothing to do with the plot, like they did with Apollo in his game. You guys shouldn't use the term Mary Sue to describe her, because it is a very loaded and hateful term, a term that indicates a level of writing that doesn't fairly represent her character.
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Moni_22 wrote:
Quote:
Spoiler:
Bolt pretty much explains the case against Athena in his first paragraph. (Also, don't forget that she's not an attorney at 18; she's an attorney and psychologist at 18.)


Spoiler:
But then it's the same case as Franziska, because her mother was an expert in psychology, that's why she taught Simon, and Athena had great powers to see emotions when she was little. She only had to learn to control them and use them in court.

Spoiler:
Except Athena's mom never taught Athena. And the whole point behind Franzy's character is that she wasn't a natural prodigy.

But what's that, you say? Athena was born with unique magic powers that only she has and that are never explained? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


DonteTheDA wrote:
I need to interject, because you're misrepresenting the character. Kokone is not a "psychologist", she's a lawyer who uses psychology. She didn't go to Med School, she didn't get an MD. Furthermore, a playable character needs some level of competence, seeing as they have to, y'know, win the case. And when you say "real flaws", I'm not seeing what makes Athena any more of a Sue than Phoenix. Phoenix, who can be hit by trucks and fall off a bridge and survive. Phoenix, who ALWAYS has things turn out in his favor through a stroke of luck. Phoenix, whose personal trauma was the vast majority of the focus in Apollo Justice.

It's true that Nick doesn't have many flaws (his biggest one is probably being too trusting). In fact, he's a very plain character, but so is Apollo. I think it's really necessary in a first-person mystery game; the fun of the game is figuring everything out as it goes along, with the protagonist, and so the protagonist must be plain so that the player can identify with them, and also solves the crime at approximately the same pace (ideally). Everything working out for Nick is pretty much due to he virtue of being the main character; the same is true for Edgey, Polly, and Athena when they're in control. As for why Nick isn't a "Sue" (I suppose I'll start quoting that, since we aren't really talking about true "Sue"s here) is that, unlike Athena, he didn't become an attorney 6 years sooner than normal, he doesn't have a unique unexplained magic power, and he isn't beloved by every person that isn't a criminal
Spoiler: GS5 case 5
including to the point that they're willing to die for him.


The lack of flaws doesn't make a character a "Sue"; it's unrealistic positive aspects without compensating negative aspects. And it's not inherently bad; there's no reason a random character can't be like that (for the sake of a story), and if the rival is like that it makes the story more exciting/interesting. But when it's the hero... that's when the problems develop, because there isn't much excitement in the story; the hero is already so great, it isn't very exciting or surprising when they win. I mean, compare the set-up of AA and DD: "rookie attorney who's an average guy vs genius prosecutor who hasn't lost a case" and "genius teenage psychologist attorney vs random prosecutor". (Yes, they both play out the same, but that's beside the point. And while Simon isn't a "random" prosecutor, his defining trait is that he's a prisoner, which is completely unrelated to his skill as a prosecutor.)



Anyway, after some thinking, I've decided/concluded/realized that what the thing I don't like about GS5 is the story. And I think it's also the story/overarching plot that forced Athena to be the character she is.
Spoiler: GS5
Obviously I don't know for sure, but I get the feeling that the theme of "emotions" and the concept of the Mood Matrix were there from the start of development. I'm also assuming that the general shape of the overarching plot was decided.
So we need a new character. And they're going to be the one to introduce the Mood Matrix thing. So if they're going to be using emotions and whatnot, they need to know about it, so they need to be a psychologist.
But they're going to be hanging around Nick & Co., and the most sensible reason why they would be working at a law firm is that they're a lawyer.
Now how old are they going to be? Well, when the 'incident' in the past happened, they were probably pretty young, so that the memories could be repressed. We could make the incident have happened a decade+ ago, but... we want that incident to signal the 'dark times of the law'. And since that also happened with Nick's disbarment trial, the incident could've only happened at most 8 years ago. And since they were a child during the incident, in present time they can't really be older than a teenager.
And if we have a teenager hanging out with an attorney, by The Fundamental Law of the Ace Attorney Universe, they must be a perky female.


And thus, Athena Cykes was born.
(tl;dr: Athena's character can't be significantly changed without also significantly reworking the plot of GS5, and it is my belief that Athena was made by fit the plot of GS5, rather than the other way around.)



ANYWAY, I plan on writing a bit about why exactly I didn't like the story of GS5 a bit later (and in a different thread)
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Well, as far as I can tell from spoilers, she seems to take on the roles in the story that are usually divided up between many characters, it's like she's Mia, Maya and Edgeworth all at once from GS1. Not 'The Prosecutor' but she has the same Edgeworth style tragic past backstory that is the focus of the major plot/case. And she has the magic power and is main assistant. And she's another lawyer (and isn't even dead). Now this is... a lot compared to what usually happens. And well since we already have Phoenix and Apollo anyway...

It sounds like the amount of attention she gets in the story revolving around her might feel overdone. Not that I'd know without playing myself though. It also might be partly because the fandom had wished for or anticipated the story be about Phoenix and Apollo, not another new lawyer. (Did anybody actually want that?) It's debatable whether or not they did the right thing bringing in yet another main who arguably exceeds the plot importance of Phoenix or Apollo in their respective debut titles. For all we know, new players might love her to death.

I don't think they'll ever make her the main playable protagonist in 'Gs6' though. I think they still consider males their core market even though a lot of females play the games, and so they think about people self-inserting on the main lawyer (even though I sure never do). You can see Athena's still a victim with a tragic past you watch most of the time which is meant to get your sympathy/empathy (as far as I can tell anyway). Supposedly they usually use female characters in this way (guess Edgeworth was an anomoly). In the case of Mia, she was eye candy for obvious reasons. Her short playable cases in GS3 didn't even have any investigation phase (which is arguably from 1st person POV). Of course Athena's problems were resolved (as far as I've heard?) unlike the Fey plot, so it's harder for them to write another story completely around her.
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Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler:
Athena was born with unique magic powers that only she has and that are never explained?

Spoiler: 5-5
Hey, wasn't it mentioned somewhere during the final confrontation with the Phantom that she and Simon could "pass" between themselves the information they obtain through listening to witness' hearts? It was a reason that Simon never stopped doubting Fulbright once they brought him to the stand.

Or maybe I read that part wrong. Someone clarify, please.

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler:
Athena was born with unique magic powers that only she has and that are never explained?

Spoiler: 5-5
Hey, wasn't it mentioned somewhere during the final confrontation with the Phantom that she and Simon could "pass" between themselves the information they obtain through listening to witness' hearts? It was a reason that Simon never stopped doubting Fulbright once they brought him to the stand.

Or maybe I read that part wrong. Someone clarify, please.

Spoiler:
Not quite ^^" Simon lured/tricked Fulbright into talking about his family that Phantom was supposedly holding hostage, by pretending to be on Fulbright's side. However, while Fulbright was talking about that, Athena Mood Matrixes him and sees that he didn't feel any emotion when talking about that stuff, which confirms their suspicions about them. Simon reveals that he never trusted Fulbright and only pretended to in order to help Athena out, and so Athena says "Nice pass!" (like a sports metaphor/analogy sort of thing).

Simon doesn't have Athena's powers at all; he just knows psychology.

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Quote:
Mary Sue as Center of Attention
Similar to the above, this posits that a Mary Sue is someone who gets too much attention from the other characters, especially if their personality and actions don't seem to fully justify such strong reactions. It's important to note that this isn't confined to positive attention; if every single villain the Sue encounters develops an intense, personal, obsessive hatred of them, that qualifies too. In fact, most Sues by this definition combine both types of attention: they're loved by every sympathetic character they meet and hated by every unsympathetic character. It's true that most fictional characters are designed to be charismatic, striking individuals who inspire strong reactions in the audience, but it's also true that in the real world, no matter how charismatic you are, most people you know just don't spend all their time thinking about you. It's been said that the best writers remember that every character, no matter how minor, is the hero of his or her own story — think of the anecdote about the actor who played the gravedigger in Hamlet and described the play as "a story about a gravedigger who meets a prince." Conversely, if every supporting character in a story seems to spend more time obsessing over the main character than they do worrying about their own lives, that main character is probably a Mary Sue by this theory.


I took this from TvTropes, and it mostly describes how I see her character, but take note that I haven't beaten the game yet.
Spoiler: Moments where I think this rings true:
In case 5, Trucy has been kidnapped and Phoenix only thinks about how he has to help Athena.
In the game's intro, and case 1 where Phoenix tells about how amazing her special ability is, and in all post-intro cutscenes of case 1 she's placed in the center of the groups she's in.

There are probably many more, but I haven't really thought too hard about it yet.
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DonteTheDA wrote:
AnsweringNOW wrote:
Spoiler: 5-3 spoilers
I do agree with the part about her needing support, as she even needed Apollo's, Juniper's, Rei's and Chishio's support to help her prove Ichiro is guilty. I was pretty touched by that scene when I watched it. And doesn't she get aggravated easily by Ichiro's speech about justice and truth and whatnot?

Basically, she's definitely not perfect and doesn't really act like she needs no help from any of them, even though she does have some qualities of a Sue such as her being a young prodigy of sorts and her Mood Matrix being praised a lot.


You can't really berate Athena for being a prodigy, because while being a Lawyer at the age of 18 seems impressive, remember that this is Ace Attorney. In the FIRST FREAKING GAME, we learn that Miles Edgeworth became a prosecutor at the age of seventeen. In the second game, we learn that Franciska Von Karma became an attorney at the age of fourteen! Then we have Ema Skye as a lead homicide detective at the age of 25, and Pearl, a master channeler at the age of eight.

I hate Mary Sues more than anything, but Athena is not a mary sue. She's a great and fun character

Most of those are lies: Here are the real ages:
Miles Edgeworth: Prosecutor at 19
Franziska von Karma: Prosecutor at 13
Pearl Fey: Channeling prodigy at 8
Klavier Gavin: Prosecutor at 17
Athena Cykes: Defense attorney at 18
Simon Blackquill: Prosecutor at 21 (I'm just guessing this)
POHLKUNKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
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So, would you say, despite of whether you think she is a Sue or not, that Athena is a better character than Kay Faraday for example? Is she more down-to-earth or is she basically a Kay Faraday 2?
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Ash wrote:
Spoiler:
As such, I can't help but feel like Kokone is very artificial at moments. Besides the mentioned character traits, I think it doesn't help that her backstory mimics that of Ema, and that the player experiences her as 1) a narrating protagonist, 2) a playable protagonist (=/= the same as (1)), 3) assistent and 4) suspect and 5) witness. She is inserted practically everywhere in the structure.

Erm.

Edgeworth.
A narrating protagonist, a playable protagonist.
An opponent, a defense attorney, a witness, a defendant, a victim.

Your point is kinda invalid.
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Because Edgeworth is the other one that Capcom keeps chained up at their headquarters.

Just feel like pointing out that once a Sue character is established in one game, she won't have as big of a role in later games. Kay got some attention in the game she was introduced in, and in the next game, what she basically had to do was show up at times to use Little Thief.

She may be at the center of attention in this game; but I genuinely feel disappointed that she might not be able to do much later on. They've already used the recurring assistant-as-suspect idea plenty enough. There's no need to bring it up again, and as a result, this assistant won't be doing much else beside assisting. I'm not saying she'll be useless, but I am guessing she won't be as high in the ranking polls any more.

Oh, well. The next game will still star Apollo, won't it, Capcom? That Nico poll must have planted some interesting ideas in mind.
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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler:
Athena was born with unique magic powers that only she has and that are never explained?

Spoiler: 5-5
Hey, wasn't it mentioned somewhere during the final confrontation with the Phantom that she and Simon could "pass" between themselves the information they obtain through listening to witness' hearts? It was a reason that Simon never stopped doubting Fulbright once they brought him to the stand.

Or maybe I read that part wrong. Someone clarify, please.

Spoiler:
Not quite ^^" Simon lured/tricked Fulbright into talking about his family that Phantom was supposedly holding hostage, by pretending to be on Fulbright's side. However, while Fulbright was talking about that, Athena Mood Matrixes him and sees that he didn't feel any emotion when talking about that stuff, which confirms their suspicions about them. Simon reveals that he never trusted Fulbright and only pretended to in order to help Athena out, and so Athena says "Nice pass!" (like a sports metaphor/analogy sort of thing).

Simon doesn't have Athena's powers at all; he just knows psychology.

Spoiler:
OBJECTION!

From what I saw in the English Demo, it's explained that Athena's hearing is acute and, with her knowledge of psychology, she can pick out emotions from the tone of their voice. Then, she inputs what she heard into the AI, for a visual representation.

This doesn't sound like a "special power" aside from the hearing; this sounds like she made herself an interface to keep track of the more fine-tuned audio details of the testimonies. Not so much a power as device to help uncover the truth - like Phoenix's Magatama confirming for him that people are lying, rather than Apollo's Perception ability.

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Artemis wrote:
Spoiler:
like Phoenix's Magatama confirming for him that people are lying, rather than Apollo's Perception ability.

I would settle for the mix of both, actually.
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Sligneris wrote:
Ash wrote:
Spoiler:
As such, I can't help but feel like Kokone is very artificial at moments. Besides the mentioned character traits, I think it doesn't help that her backstory mimics that of Ema, and that the player experiences her as 1) a narrating protagonist, 2) a playable protagonist (=/= the same as (1)), 3) assistent and 4) suspect and 5) witness. She is inserted practically everywhere in the structure.

Erm.

Edgeworth.
A narrating protagonist, a playable protagonist.
An opponent, a defense attorney, a witness, a defendant, a victim.

Your point is kinda invalid.

Or maybe you're missing the point.
Sure Edgeworth was all those things... across 7 different games.

Athena was all this... In ONE game. And to add more on top of it, she was all this in a matter of months. It's not as compelling as with Edgeworth's case, wouldn't you agree? :javado:
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Artemis wrote:
Spoiler:
From what I saw in the English Demo, it's explained that Athena's hearing is acute and, with her knowledge of psychology, she can pick out emotions from the tone of their voice. Then, she inputs what she heard into the AI, for a visual representation.

Except I've played the full game, and it's basically a magic power.

linkenski wrote:
Sure Edgeworth was all those things... across 7 different games.

Athena was all this... In ONE game.

This
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Just feel like pointing out that once a Sue character is established in one game, she won't have as big of a role in later games. Kay got some attention in the game she was introduced in, and in the next game, what she basically had to do was show up at times to use Little Thief.

She may be at the center of attention in this game; but I genuinely feel disappointed that she might not be able to do much later on. They've already used the recurring assistant-as-suspect idea plenty enough. There's no need to bring it up again, and as a result, this assistant won't be doing much else beside assisting. I'm not saying she'll be useless, but I am guessing she won't be as high in the ranking polls any more.

Oh, well. The next game will still star Apollo, won't it, Capcom? That Nico poll must have planted some interesting ideas in mind.

Thinking about it, if they have Apollo star in his own game again, I really hope they won't pull off an Edgey-ripoff role for Klavier. Fortunately, we don't know if he has a foreign friend coming in from Germerica to seek revenge on him... or is that 'unfortunately'?

...Good thing I have my hopes that they aren't going to take that route. I'm sure they're going to put Klavier through some more 'terrible tragedies', though, and I'm going to sneer sinisterly as I watch.
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Klavier isn't half-german, he's just trying to lick off the populatity of Tokio Hotel :P
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Just feel like pointing out that once a Sue character is established in one game, she won't have as big of a role in later games. Kay got some attention in the game she was introduced in, and in the next game, what she basically had to do was show up at times to use Little Thief.

She may be at the center of attention in this game; but I genuinely feel disappointed that she might not be able to do much later on. They've already used the recurring assistant-as-suspect idea plenty enough. There's no need to bring it up again, and as a result, this assistant won't be doing much else beside assisting. I'm not saying she'll be useless, but I am guessing she won't be as high in the ranking polls any more.

Oh, well. The next game will still star Apollo, won't it, Capcom? That Nico poll must have planted some interesting ideas in mind.

Thinking about it, if they have Apollo star in his own game again, I really hope they won't pull off an Edgey-ripoff role for Klavier. Fortunately, we don't know if he has a foreign friend coming in from Germerica to seek revenge on him... or is that 'unfortunately'?

...Good thing I have my hopes that they aren't going to take that route. I'm sure they're going to put Klavier through some more 'terrible tragedies', though, and I'm going to sneer sinisterly as I watch.


Apollo was the star of a game? When did this happen and why wasn't I informed?

They don't really have to put Klavier through more tragedies, it would be sufficient to show us that he actually cared about what has happened.
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No, Apollo wasn't the "star" of GS5, though that's subjective I guess.

It's just that recent polls in Japan had Apollo turn out to be the #1 most liked character from Ace Attorney, and that's because of his role in GS5. If the GK team do like they usually do, they're gonna make the next game based on what the playerbase wants, in this case another game with Apollo as the protagonist. I wouldn't object to this. It seems like they've made Apollo their character and I doubt Takeshi writes Phoenix as well as Shu did anyway.

Bear in mind that Shu said himself, that he wrote Phoenix to think like he did himself, and he even had Shu Takumi's voice in the Japanese version, whereas he tried making Apollo from a different angle. Most likely it's easier for the GK staff to write Apollo since they can kinda shape him to their liking since he only had one game that Shu wrote as opposed to 3 with Phoenix.
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Thane wrote:
Apollo was the star of a game? When did this happen and why wasn't I informed?

They don't really have to put Klavier through more tragedies, it would be sufficient to show us that he actually cared about what has happened.

Haven't you heard? He even has his own Apollo Cave somewhere at CAPCOM HQ now.

Okay, so the game on which his name was titled didn't actually star him. Ironically, the next game in which he appeared did star him in certain parts and didn't star Phoenix as much as you'd expect out of a PW game. What does that mean for GS6? The ideal answer should be "nothing; GS6 can support itself without the need to cling to the popularity of others for support or direction." However, the expected answer could be "maybe now that Apollo is really popular again, let's make that sequel of his game!"

I'm neither for it nor against it. I'd like a sequel in which Apollo's character can be more closely explored, but it's not something that would do much to help the divided fanbase, and this series needs plenty of promotion overseas for it to continue strong. Fortunately, there are those who have stuck through the wait for almost 5 years between the release of AJ and the announcement of GS5 and have proven themselves especially loyal. Keep it up, guys.

As for Klavier, one of the main reasons I don't like him very much is because how detached he feels from the cast. One of these days, I'm hoping we can see a completely different side to him. Another game could give his character much more depth than we've seen of him so far. But I wasn't kidding about my sinister sneer. The very fact he can be ridiculed by me means he's advanced to the level of 'buttmonkey' from 'total stranger'. Yes, believe it or not, there is a certain pride to being the buttmonkey of a group of people.
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
What does that mean for GS6? The ideal answer should be "nothing; GS6 can support itself without the need to cling to the popularity of others for support or direction."

Unfortunately I don't think so, as long as Eshiro is in charge. Remember his statement about how all returning characters for GS5 were handpicked "carefully" and not because of what fans wanted, furthermore they had to fit within the plot so it would feel forced.
Spoiler: Guess what
Klavier and Pearl didn't feel forced at all don't you think?


Wasn't it Eshiro who forced Takumi to put Phoenix into AJ:AA as well? Idk. I initially liked Eshiro a lot but lately I've got the impression that he doesn't respect the franchise enough. :damon:
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Quote:
Wasn't it Eshiro who forced Takumi to put Phoenix into AJ:AA as well?

No, those were certain anonymous authorities at Capcom. Eshiro didn't have much to say in AJ, or at least not that I've heard about.

...Maybe I should have called it the Odoroki Cave, because it's in Tokyo.
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Thane wrote:
Apollo was the star of a game? When did this happen and why wasn't I informed?

They don't really have to put Klavier through more tragedies, it would be sufficient to show us that he actually cared about what has happened.

Haven't you heard? He even has his own Apollo Cave somewhere at CAPCOM HQ now.

Okay, so the game on which his name was titled didn't actually star him. Ironically, the next game in which he appeared did star him in certain parts and didn't star Phoenix as much as you'd expect out of a PW game. What does that mean for GS6? The ideal answer should be "nothing; GS6 can support itself without the need to cling to the popularity of others for support or direction." However, the expected answer could be "maybe now that Apollo is really popular again, let's make that sequel of his game!"

I'm neither for it nor against it. I'd like a sequel in which Apollo's character can be more closely explored, but it's not something that would do much to help the divided fanbase, and this series needs plenty of promotion overseas for it to continue strong. Fortunately, there are those who have stuck through the wait for almost 5 years between the release of AJ and the announcement of GS5 and have proven themselves especially loyal. Keep it up, guys.

As for Klavier, one of the main reasons I don't like him very much is because how detached he feels from the cast. One of these days, I'm hoping we can see a completely different side to him. Another game could give his character much more depth than we've seen of him so far. But I wasn't kidding about my sinister sneer. The very fact he can be ridiculed by me means he's advanced to the level of 'buttmonkey' from 'total stranger'. Yes, believe it or not, there is a certain pride to being the buttmonkey of a group of people.


Heh, I was just kidding of course, although I like the idea of an Apollo cave. But let's be honest, he'd be Robin.

I'm looking forward to Apollo's role in Dual Destinies; I know absolutely nothing of his involvement, so it'll be interesting to find out why he's so popular all of a sudden.

I think an Apollo Justice II would be a great idea. There are many questions I would like to have answered, and the cast needs some serious character development - Klavier, as you said, felt completely detached from the rest of the cast, and the last we heard from depressed, grumpy Ema was that she wanted to make gold-colored snackoos. Now I don't know about you, but that's not enough closure for me, I happen to really like her.
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I also liked Ema a lot, thought not as much as in RFTA in PW:AA, because I felt they didn't use her enough in AJ. I would love a case that gives more insight into how she is as an adult. It would be great if she got some character development at some point and I'd love to see her in GS5 like graphics.

And if she'd bring back luminol testing and white powder for the main game it would be even better.
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Not to revive a dead thread, but I gotta say in hindsight talking about how Athena is a Sue almost seems hilarious since I started playing Beyond Two Souls... and somehow I can still see Jodie winning GOTY as "Best Character of The Year" since she's played by Ellen Page. Jesus, a game has never made me go "WTF" this much. I take all my skepticism of Yamazaki back, because David Cage knows how to write a true Mary Sue!

Forgive me being intern, and again, forgive me for reviving the thread for no apparent reason. I just felt like saying it :3
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*smacks him hard with a toy banhammer*

Never do that again!
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Now that the game's out in America, I'm curious as to more people's thoughts on Athena.
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Bolt Storm wrote:
Now that the game's out in America, I'm curious as to more people's thoughts on Athena.


I swear I'll be banned for only talking about Athena if I keep this up. Oh well, here I go.

Spoiler: Athena's character and role
I'll say it right off the bat that Athena's character and role are the two biggest complaints I have about the game. Whether or not she's a Mary Sue is completely irrelevant to this discussion, as people tend not to agree on what exactly a Mary Sue is. However, that doesn't mean she isn't just plain annoying, for the lack of a better term.

She's 18, an analytical psychologist, a lawyer, combines languages (a pet peeve of mine, so I'm trying to not let it cloud my judgement), pretty, has a special power, is constantly praised and she is EVERYWHERE! I seriously cannot emphasize that last part enough. She has a major role in every single case, and during the course of this game she has been: a narrating protagonist, an assistant and a defendant. I'm genuinely surprised they didn't let her temporarily become a prosecutor too, which would have undoubtedly been the toughest challenge yet, if we're to go by how amazing she is at everything. It's shocking that Phoenix and Apollo managed to do anything without her around.

Jesting aside, the fact that she is constantly praised for everything by everyone, from attorneys to witnesses, gets old very quickly, as does her 'determined' personality.

Speaking of things getting old fast, her omnipresence inevitably leads to her hogging the limelight. The thing I looked forward to the most this game was how Apollo was going to grow as a character. While I certainly appreciate the effort of giving him a backstory and whatnot, it's just insufficient compared to the heaps of attention Athena gets. Her story comes at the expense of so many other characters I was more interested in.

Another problem I have is that I didn't even see the need for a third protagonist in the first place. As previously stated, I wanted more Apollo, but I also wanted to see Phoenix acting like the ultimate badass in court. They would've made an amazing team, and the little time they spend together at the end (trying to defend Athena, of course, why else would those two be together?) isn't nearly enough.

Like I said in the beginning of my rant, my problem with Athena isn't about whether or not she is a Mary Sue and has flaws (which felt forced anyway), this is about how the entire story is centered around her, and how many more interesting things are sacrificed in order to put focus on her.

I wanted to write more, but I'm afraid I'm in a hurry. I really hope people will disagree with me and convince me that she was in fact a fine addition to the series, but I just don't see it. I think she's utterly obnoxious, and I hope she doesn't appear in any more games.

...The mood matrix can stay.

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Man, some of you are just way too critical. Athena is a great character, and I never felt like she was shoved down my throat like most of you. I'm pretty sure when they set up these games, they always think of the first and last cases first (because they need to figure out where the characters are headed). So it's unfair to say she gets to be "the victim, the suspect, the witness" when these were already end goals for her character. That's like arguing Godot got to be the suspect, the prosecutor, the love interest (for Mia), the focus of every case, etc. It's such a shallow way of looking at it.

Second of all, you could argue Apollo had the exact same impact to the series when they made him the main character of AA4. He also had "special powers" but apparently only Athena's are bad. What about Maya channeling the deceased? Or the magatama? Those are "special powers" too. It's not fair to be critical of Athena's abilities when everyone else has them too.

They brought in Athena to make the game a bit fresh - instead of us being a single character, we get to be a team of DAs the work together. In order to make it feel like a team and not just a partnership, they introduced a new female character to balance out Phoenix and Apollo, and IMO they did it just fine. God forbid they go into Athena's backstory, because obviously they didn't do that for Apollo in AA4 or Edgeworth in AA1... oh wait.

I didn't even know about this Mary Sue concept until I googled it a few minutes ago. Apollo felt just as developed in AA4 as Athena currently does in AA5. (EDIT: maybe not.)

Last edited by Kav on Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I agree with Thane on his points that it's questionable why they put her in when we just GOT another protagonist (Apollo) and I'm afraid the main cast is gonna be bloated, because, let's be honest it felt a little so when Trucy was just in random scenes whenver Athena wasn't there, and it felt like there was very little room for Pearl as well.

And I also agree that the fact that she's EVERYWHERE gets on your nerves.

But other than that, I really didn't notice the "She's amazing" thing, other than when she's first introduced to Apollo and Phoenix. And about her age... I mean, c'mon it's Ace Attorney their age and their accomplishments rarely make sense.

But I agree, Mary Sue or not, she's not a perfectly-written character but a bad one I don't think she is.
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