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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Thane wrote:
True, someone needs dramatic bandages, or else I wouldn't know it was a Yamazaki game.

Is there anyone here who frequently roams Japanese forums? Last time I heard, Athena wasn't well-liked at all, and it sounded almost like she was even less popular over there than here. The reason I'm asking is because I highly doubt Japanese developers care one iota about Western criticism, but it'd be stupid of them to ignore the Japanese fanbase.

Well, I don't frequent Japanese forums or message boards (in fact, I can't even find any "forums" since most people just stop by message boards like 2ch), but the last I've seen, there was a lot of controversy over her as well. I wouldn't say she's "not well-liked at all", but that the Japanese audience definitely sees the problems around her. Of course, that's 2ch. The official character poll still suggests otherwise.

And speaking of that character poll, I can say with confidence that Apollo will have a major role in the next title. This is the first time he's been number one at anything regarding popularity.

Thane wrote:
However, I don't think I particularly like that idea. I'm all for Athena dying and making a case out of it, but leaving her injured only to pull the plug and to have Maya appear channeling sounds like a bit of an overkill.

Especially that it'd be a shameless way to plug in Maya. That's not how I'd like her to make a return, thanks.

Nearavex wrote:
I remember reading another idea, hold on...

"Basically it was going to have two simultaneous trials. One was Phoenix with Maya defending Edgeworth from kidnapping and attempted murder charges when Aura was smuggled out of jail and found tied up in the Chief Prosecutor’s car trunk or wherever I decided to put her.

The other was going to be Athena with Trucy defending Apollo from charges of murdering Thalassa Gramarye, shortly after learning what she was to him.

This was going to be another “homecoming” case with big names and faces returning and each having their own roles. For example, Simon was going to be on the lamb as a suspect in breaking his sister out of prison before it was discovered where she had gone and I wanted Franziska’s older sister to be the one prosecuting against Edgeworth.

Naturally, the mastermind behind all this was going to be Kristoph attempting to tear down those that “shined light on the dark age of the law”. He was behind himself with fury at their hypocrisy and the sycophants lauding them, so he wanted to undo them before his execution date. The trick, however, was how he’d manage it from behind bars. He needed someone who could move freely and could be coerced into having similar goals.

Well, there happened to be a simple repair man doing work in the prison at the time. That repair man used to have a better job. He used to do work in a space center, had himself a pretty girlfriend, had a daughter… but lost it all because of a foul tempered roboticist turning his lady against him.

Athena was going to expose her own father as a murderer only moments after discovering who he was."

Well, I wouldn't have handled it exactly this way, but I like the idea about Athena's father - had he been involved in a case, Athena would have a lot of potential as a playable character.

This genuinely makes me laugh. That said, since we know absolutely nothing about her father, his introduction could help explain a little more insight into Athena's childhood. I do wonder if they had a divorce.

Ash wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Well, the thing is, Trucy does have to attend school. GS4 didn't exactly make sense on this matter, with Trucy hanging out with Apollo solving cases, while apparently skipping classes.


There's no problem in the Japanese version though: compulsory education in Japan stops with lower secondary school / junior high (15), so she's just another member of the working population in GS4.

Ah, but remember: this is not simply Japan, it's Japanifornia. Therefore, Trucy graduated early at the incredibly young age of 16 and is thus a member of the working population.

Bad Player wrote:
My pet theory is that in Japanifornia, killers are considerate enough that they only murder people on Fridays.

Aw, that only gives the prosecution 2 days of pre-trial investigation before the trial on Monday! No wonder we have cases like 2-1 (but I'm pretty sure that one only had 4 hours of "investigation" and document processing, tops).

Thane wrote:
One could argue Kay should be a culprit in a case since she's a thief, but hey, she's only "stealing truth", so that makes it okay.

God I hate that ridiculous phrase.

The main reason she hasn't been arrested is because she hasn't stolen anything, not even the truth.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Thane wrote:
One could argue Kay should be a culprit in a case since she's a thief, but hey, she's only "stealing truth", so that makes it okay.

God I hate that ridiculous phrase.

I actually like it, though you did just make me realize Kay is a less cool Sly Cooper
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
The official character poll still suggests otherwise.

Especially that it'd be a shameless way to plug in Maya. That's not how I'd like her to make a return, thanks.

Another forum I frequent (not AA related) has polls for what people think of episodes of a show. The polls are always very positive while people's thoughts of the episodes are littered with criticism. Also, people's negative thoughts get downvoted all the time (the forum has an upvote/downvote system). Basically, negative or critical thoughts are just the vocal majority. I mean, people have said they like Athena in the "What did you think about....?" thread but they haven't stopped by here

And in my idea, I wasn't really thinking that's all Maya would show up for. She'd show up for the rest of the game but channel a spirit when it matters. It wouldn't be like Pearl in 5-5 just showing up to talk about Psyche-Locks
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JesusMonroe is correct, and I was just about to write a reply about that myself: you really can't trust polls on official forums like that. I actually went back and read some Naruto via a forum, and I have never read something so bad in my entire life (at least, not something written by a "professional" who gets paid to write), and every single person I know who once read the manga agree with me, but the forums is just full of people who vote 5/5 and laud the writer as some kind of genius. I would say give it a try yourself, but then I remember the length of the manga, and the fact that I'd never want anyone to go through that horrible last arc. Sad, because the two first arcs are pretty darn good.

However, if they are easily swayed by official polls like that, then it might actually be a good thing, seeing as Apollo was ranked highest on the list, and he's the lawyer with the biggest need for screentime at the moment.

Also I think Rubes just nailed why I never cared for Kay in the slightest: she says she's a thief who only steals the truth, but she hasn't even done that. But that's for another thread, I believe.
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As a side note since we're talking about Kay: I could see her Edgeworth and Gumshoe becoming a new 'Yatagarasu' easily. Then you'll get an interesting scene where Edgeworth passes Nick some evidence that supposedly has been missing and smirks. Nick is hesitant that it's been forged but doesn't believe Edgeworth would return to those old ways however every test conducted on the evidence proves it's genuine.

Possibly culminating in a trial where Edgeworth is accused of forgery and you act as his defence team and sadly expose the Yatagarasu to save him.

Still I at least liked your idea JM :kristoph: Thought it would be a good climactic use of all the characters in the finale.

Nearavex wrote:
They didn't want to disclose the exact relationship between Athena and Blackquill until Cases 4 and 5.

Such was the case with me - I did predict he's in prison for killing Athena's mother, but until Case 3, I didn't think she believed in his innocence.


That's not really enough, even when they did disclose the exact relationship in 4/5 it's vague, flimsy and undefined. She's the random daughter of his mentor who is socially awkward. He's the dubious prosecutor learning Psychology to harass confessions out of people. Welp guess he'd better throw his life away for her.

Hell I think it comes off as Aura having a greater relationship with Metis Cykes than either her daughter or Blackquill for all we know of them.
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From the talk about Kay "stealing the truth" but not actually stealing it, I think that's kind of the point. The Yatagarasu actually stole items from the smuggling ring and sent it to the press for everyone to see. Kay kind of sees it as just revealing it for everyone to see. The culprit "hides" the truth and by Kay "stealing" it, she's taking it away from the culprit
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So in her mind, she actually is stealing the truth; quite frequently, actually. That's why she always hangs around Edgeworth. She takes the Yatagarasu torch because that's what her father did, but she does things a little differently because the Yatagarasu turned out to be pointless in the end because it was controlled by the smuggling ring all along. I kind of liked that because she's not just taking a position because she inherited it (Master of Kurain, the Gramarye name) but she's kind of taking her own path. I think it distinguishes her nicely from the other assistants because of that

Though, like Thane said, this is more a discussion for another thread
Pierre wrote:
As a side note since we're talking about Kay: I could see her Edgeworth and Gumshoe becoming a new 'Yatagarasu' easily. Then you'll get an interesting scene where Edgeworth passes Nick some evidence that supposedly has been missing and smirks. Nick is hesitant that it's been forged but doesn't believe Edgeworth would return to those old ways however every test conducted on the evidence proves it's genuine.

Possibly culminating in a trial where Edgeworth is accused of forgery and you act as his defence team and sadly expose the Yatagarasu to save him.

I actually like this idea even though it kind of contradicts what I just wrote
Spoiler: GK2
It's actually possible this could be the route taken by the writers considering they do become the second Yatagarasu by the end of the game

It would be a nice blending of both series, but I don't know if it would happen because so far the team has been trying to keep them separate
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Pierre wrote:
That's not really enough, even when they did disclose the exact relationship in 4/5 it's vague, flimsy and undefined. She's the random daughter of his mentor who is socially awkward. He's the dubious prosecutor learning Psychology to harass confessions out of people. Welp guess he'd better throw his life away for her.

Well, she did describe him as "kind and considerate" and Simon did lose a grip on his emotions when he saw the scene as he did (note that happiness was in his overload mode too), so it's obvious these reactions wouldn't come from them being just random strangers - it's clear they interacted at some point.

Still, it's strange, because I had quite a clear picture of their past relationship, actually. I still have.
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Nearavex wrote:
They didn't want to disclose the exact relationship between Athena and Blackquill until Cases 4 and 5.

Such was the case with me - I did predict he's in prison for killing Athena's mother, but until Case 3, I didn't think she believed in his innocence.

...Really? I found the whole thing extraordinarily obvious from nearly the beginning. (Also part of why I found DD so boring when it got to revealing those 'twists')
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Well, I was surprised they showed that bloody flashback in Case 1, since I'd expect it to made its debut no earlier than Case 5.
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Nearavex wrote:
Pierre wrote:
That's not really enough, even when they did disclose the exact relationship in 4/5 it's vague, flimsy and undefined. She's the random daughter of his mentor who is socially awkward. He's the dubious prosecutor learning Psychology to harass confessions out of people. Welp guess he'd better throw his life away for her.

Well, she did describe him as "kind and considerate" and Simon did lose a grip on his emotions when he saw the scene as he did (note that happiness was in his overload mode too), so it's obvious these reactions wouldn't come from them being just random strangers - it's clear they interacted at some point.

Still, it's strange, because I had quite a clear picture of their past relationship, actually. I still have.


It's not strange at all, you are entitled to your opinion.

Though like we've said before it's a case of "Told not shown". We have her word that he's kind and considerate but there's no 'evidence'. No substance to back it up. How is he kind? Did he babysit? Did he play with her? Did she witness him taking in stray cats? Does he do Samurai Sword Displays to raise money for charity?

There is a lot to the phrase "Kind and Considerate" it might even be an observation or estimation from his behaviour rather than anything to do with an interaction between Athena and Blackquill themselves.

Take my friend Johnny, he's cool and level-headed.

You have my word on it.

That's essentially what we're being asked to accept, her word. "Show don't tell" as is the rule of court, evidence would be appreciated and because it isn't the entire relationship comes across as strange and forced.
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Pierre wrote:
Though like we've said before it's a case of "Told not shown". We have her word that he's kind and considerate but there's no 'evidence'. No substance to back it up. How is he kind? Did he babysit? Did he play with her? Did she witness him taking in stray cats? Does he do Samurai Sword Displays to raise money for charity?

There is a lot to the phrase "Kind and Considerate" it might even be an observation or estimation from his behaviour rather than anything to do with an interaction between Athena and Blackquill themselves.

Take my friend Johnny, he's cool and level-headed.

You have my word on it.

That's essentially what we're being asked to accept, her word. "Show don't tell" as is the rule of court, evidence would be appreciated and because it isn't the entire relationship comes across as strange and forced.

Well, I could have a good image of your relationship with "Johny" if I was given pictures of both of you (character design, which is an important aspect of creating character and their personality) and had an insight on your character, such as we have for some part for young Athena.

But, I admit, we could have used some flashbacks at the time when she was saying that.

Speaking of what was told but now shown, I was annoyed how we didn't really get an investigation phase for Case 4 - that way, we could've met Clay, but also, his death would be a shock akin to that of Mia, since the game hinted him for quite some time since Case 2.


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Nearavex wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Though like we've said before it's a case of "Told not shown". We have her word that he's kind and considerate but there's no 'evidence'. No substance to back it up. How is he kind? Did he babysit? Did he play with her? Did she witness him taking in stray cats? Does he do Samurai Sword Displays to raise money for charity?

There is a lot to the phrase "Kind and Considerate" it might even be an observation or estimation from his behaviour rather than anything to do with an interaction between Athena and Blackquill themselves.

Take my friend Johnny, he's cool and level-headed.

You have my word on it.

That's essentially what we're being asked to accept, her word. "Show don't tell" as is the rule of court, evidence would be appreciated and because it isn't the entire relationship comes across as strange and forced.

Well, I could have a good image of your relationship with "Johny" if I was given pictures of both of you (character design, which is an important aspect of creating character and their personality) and had an insight on your character, such as we have for some part for young Athena.

But, I admit, we could have used some flashbacks at the time she was saying that.



Spoiler: Johnny
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Does that help? It shouldn't. Even in the original issue of Blackquill his character design doesn't look 'nice' and Young Athena is dumb.

Yes a flashback or anything, hell a description of how they interacted other than "He's nice" would have done well enough for me.
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It doesn't, since "cool and level-headed" doesn't really fit the picture to me.
I was more or less expecting a character with a neutral, somewhat distant expression, possibly with glasses.

It would be like Athena saying that present Blackquill is kind and considerate.
(I hope I'm not too harsh to Johny here)
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Nearavex wrote:
It doesn't, since "cool and level-headed" doesn't really fit the picture to me.
I was more or less expecting a character with a neutral, somewhat distant expression, possibly with glasses.

It would be like Athena saying that present Blackquill is kind and considerate.
(I hope I'm not too harsh to Johny here)


Yeah but you can't judge a book by it's cover.

That's entirely the point, you can't take someone on their word as good evidence of what a person is like. We need the context for it, as an outsider it would've been nice to know about Athena and Blackquill's relationship but we're never told about it. Or I should say we ARE told about it but in such a flimsy way that it doesn't really tell us anything about the relationship or what made it. Like a lot of Athena's unexplained boons which is the problem with her character.

Also for the record Johnny doesn't exist.

That's just a random description from the top of my head and a random picture from a google search of "Johnny".
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But I'd wager that's Pierre's very point: we don't see young Blackquill until the very end, and even then you see his face, what, once or twice? Blackquill looks anything but nice, of course we know from the very beginning he's not guilty of murder, but that doesn't make him a swell guy. We have to trust Athena's word, because he hasn't been very pleasant in the courtroom.

With the incredibly limited information we have on their relationship, we're forced to guess how they even came into contact. As has been stated numerous times in the game, Athena often felt that her mother neglected her, and Simon spent most of his time there studying psychology for whatever reason, so it can't have been that often, seeing as it's not something a presumably busy young prosecutor could just pick up in an hour.

Unless he's European, of course.
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Nearavex wrote:
Speaking of what was told but now shown, I was annoyed how we didn't really get an investigation phase for Case 4 - that way, we could've met Clay, but also, his death would be a shock akin to that of Mia, since the game hinted him for quite some time since Case 2.

We could get more than that:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think it would've been pretty interesting if Case 4 had a Day 1 investigation. Apollo and Trucy go to the Space Center, we meet Clay and Starbuck, talk to them for a bit, and then Apollo and Trucy wait for the launch. Then, bombs go off and Fulbright sends them down the emergency ladder. After that, we hear news that an astronaut was killed by the other (and the player naturally assumes Clay is accused of killing Starbuck). We can see Apollo's immediate reaction to Clay's death. We'd even get to meet Candice Arme and pre-murderer Ted Tonate. Instead of investigating the murder scene, we could investigate the blown up rocket and save the scene of the murder for Day 2. Also, considering the first trial doesn't use the Mood Matrix, Trucy can be the aide for that section

It just seems like missed potential. The only thing that I think would be hard to work around is Apollo "perceiving" Athena. That could be solved by ending day 1 of the investigation with Apollo telling Trucy, "Before I head back to WAA, I'm just gonna do a once-over of the crime scene with Athena. See you tomorrow." *To Be Continued*
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"Doesn't look nice"... ? :ron:
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Nearavex wrote:
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"Doesn't look nice"... ? :ron:


I meant current Simon, and that we barely see young Simon's face. Honestly I had completely forgotten you even get his profile picture.
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Nearavex wrote:
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"Doesn't look nice"... ? :ron:


Not especially, not compared to the likes of Nick Apollo or Athena.

Even then Thane clearly said he was talking about Present!Quill
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I think both sides have points here, to a certain extent.

Seeing the the characters' appearance from the past, and also seeing their personality and actions now can help us imagine what they were like in the past, especially more than two adjectives can.

But on the other hand, no matter how well we can imagine it, we're still just imagining it--we never get to actually see it, since it's one of the many things in the game that fell prey to "tell don't show" syndrome.
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If anything the Phantom himself is the ultimate example of "Don't judge a book by it's cover".

You can't derive a relationship from a profile picture alone.
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Well, these are interesting points, but if anything, that'd rather be problem with story's presentation rather than with the story itself, I think...

I, myself look at it from the in-universe perspective, so I guess I'm just able to fill in the blanks, like I told you earlier. I admit it's still the matter of imagination, it's just enough for me to appreciate the story, I guess.

Still, truth be told, it's the most annoying experience I ever have with Ace Attorney: When there are these moments, when I'd completely change some aspects of the game, whether it's lines in the script, cutscene management or other game visuals.
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, these are interesting points, but if anything, that'd rather be problem with story's presentation rather than with the story itself, I think...

I, myself look at it from the in-universe perspective, so I guess I'm just able to fill in the blanks, like I told you earlier.

Still, truth be told, it's the most annoying experience I ever have with Ace Attorney: When there are these moments, when I'd completely change some aspects of the game, whether it's lines in the script, cutscene management or other game visuals.


How can the "story's presentation" NOT be an aspect of the "story"?

It doesn't matter whether you fill in the blanks or not, it's a weakness, you can personally cover up the weakness with assumptions but it leaves more to be desired.

It's like if Case 2-2 never happened and by Case 3 Phoenix had the Magatama and just said "A friend gave it to me" and then the plot NEVER elaborated on that.
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, these are interesting points, but if anything, that'd rather be problem with story's presentation rather than with the story itself, I think...

I, myself look at it from the in-universe perspective, so I guess I'm just able to fill in the blanks, like I told you earlier. I admit it's still the matter of imagination, it's just enough for me to appreciate the story, I guess.

Still, truth be told, it's the most annoying experience I ever have with Ace Attorney: When there are these moments, when I'd completely change some aspects of the game, whether it's lines in the script, cutscene management or other game visuals.


So what you're saying is you've disagreed with us all this time because you fill in blanks yourself and as such the story is fine in your opinion?

Fair enough, then I'll do the same and adopt Pierre's android theory as canon, since it solves pretty much every major problem I have with her.
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I'd like to add that Simon "confessing" in order to protect Athena was done because of his high regard of Metis.
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MBr wrote:
I'd like to add that Simon "confessing" in order to protect Athena was done because of his high regard of Metis.


That's still a bit of a stretch for me to believe since it involved him throwing away his own life essentially with a death sentence.
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Pierre wrote:
MBr wrote:
I'd like to add that Simon "confessing" in order to protect Athena was done because of his high regard of Metis.


That's still a bit of a stretch for me to believe since it involved him throwing away his own life essentially with a death sentence.

This, along with the fact that Blackquill is throwing away his life for his mentor's kid (not the mentor herself... and the kid is also the person he thinks killed his beloved mentor), and along with the fact that Blackquill and Metis' relationship is another thing that fell victim to "tell don't show"

In terms of Blackquill's actions, the problem isn't that his motive isn't given, it's that his motive isn't compelling or fleshed out.
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Another forum I frequent (not AA related) has polls for what people think of episodes of a show. The polls are always very positive while people's thoughts of the episodes are littered with criticism. Also, people's negative thoughts get downvoted all the time (the forum has an upvote/downvote system). Basically, negative or critical thoughts are just the vocal majority. I mean, people have said they like Athena in the "What did you think about....?" thread but they haven't stopped by here

And in my idea, I wasn't really thinking that's all Maya would show up for. She'd show up for the rest of the game but channel a spirit when it matters. It wouldn't be like Pearl in 5-5 just showing up to talk about Psyche-Locks

I believe you mean the "vocal minority". Official polls, regardless of how "accurately" they represent the majority of the fandom, are means that companies like Capcom use as references of fan feedback. Forums, however, are usually unsuited for gathering poll data due to how much a debate like that in this thread can affect people's impressions of the game. In any case, I hope we're all at least rejoicing that Apollo finally defeated Nick and Edgey in something that doesn't involve Chords of Steel.

Now, if we can investigate a crime scene with the assistance of the murder victim via channeling, I'm all up for it. Otherwise, I wouldn't expect anything more than a cameo out of Maya.

Bad Player wrote:
I think both sides have points here, to a certain extent.

Seeing the the characters' appearance from the past, and also seeing their personality and actions now can help us imagine what they were like in the past, especially more than two adjectives can.

But on the other hand, no matter how well we can imagine it, we're still just imagining it--we never get to actually see it, since it's one of the many things in the game that fell prey to "tell don't show" syndrome.

I consider imagination as the "other" half of reality in a fictional universe. There's the reality the game has established and has a firm foundation in, and then there are the moments that are up for speculation and alternate interpretations. Granted, the "tell, don't show" approach isn't nearly as effective in making a point across the console screen.

Pierre wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Well, these are interesting points, but if anything, that'd rather be problem with story's presentation rather than with the story itself, I think...

I, myself look at it from the in-universe perspective, so I guess I'm just able to fill in the blanks, like I told you earlier.

Still, truth be told, it's the most annoying experience I ever have with Ace Attorney: When there are these moments, when I'd completely change some aspects of the game, whether it's lines in the script, cutscene management or other game visuals.


How can the "story's presentation" NOT be an aspect of the "story"?

It doesn't matter whether you fill in the blanks or not, it's a weakness, you can personally cover up the weakness with assumptions but it leaves more to be desired.

It's like if Case 2-2 never happened and by Case 3 Phoenix had the Magatama and just said "A friend gave it to me" and then the plot NEVER elaborated on that.

I believe he means the story is presented or told in a way that leaves much to be desired (hence the whole "tell, don't show" approach), as opposed to the story concepts.

I see we've come to the argument that claims fan speculations are useless to explain the in-game canon. I'd agree for the most part, but there are times when it becomes necessary. For example, not once in JFA was it even suggested that anyone other than Pearl knows what Psyche-locks are. We naturally assume that the rest of the Fey family do know about them, but even Morgan, who was upset to find Nick in possession of it, made no move to retrieve it, as detrimental as it could prove to her plans. That sounds a little strange, doesn't it? Meanwhile, if Pearl IS the only one who knows about them, why her specifically?
Well, we all know it's because she's Pearls and she has the gift of the Gods. She just doesn't realize her full potential yet.

Thane wrote:
So what you're saying is you've disagreed with us all this time because you fill in blanks yourself and as such the story is fine in your opinion?

Fair enough, then I'll do the same and adopt Pierre's android theory as canon, since it solves pretty much every major problem I have with her.

I'm still waiting on the moment when it's revealed that Athenazoid is actually the sniper sent to kill the Phantom. I mean, it's full-proof! Not one of these guys would even question that Athenazoid is not who she says she is! We never even paid any attention to the defense bench when Foolbright was shot! She just let him live to serve the rest of his days in utter terror.
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Bad Player wrote:
Pierre wrote:
MBr wrote:
I'd like to add that Simon "confessing" in order to protect Athena was done because of his high regard of Metis.


That's still a bit of a stretch for me to believe since it involved him throwing away his own life essentially with a death sentence.

This, along with the fact that Blackquill is throwing away his life for his mentor's kid (not the mentor herself... and the kid is also the person he thinks killed his beloved mentor), and along with the fact that Blackquill and Metis' relationship is another thing that fell victim to "tell don't show"

In terms of Blackquill's actions, the problem isn't that his motive isn't given, it's that his motive isn't compelling or fleshed out.


Because Athena was more precious than anything for Metis. That's why Simon protected her, for Metis' sake.

Athena may be my favourite character, but I can't turn a blind eye to all the things the writers left unexplained.
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Don't really help that Metis is dead, worse that Simon might even have considered she'd killed her. There was no evidence of a close relationship between him and Athena, Athena was covered in blood, her mother was on a table designed for cutting robots apart bleeding her life away from a stab/slash wound.

Athena might have seemed innocently naive and stupid at the time but it would still have looked like she'd have killed her mother by some kind of accident.

Furthermore we're not really shown that Simon really cared enough for Metis in my eyes, sure he admired her but nothing beyond a mentor-student relationship.
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Pierre wrote:
Furthermore we're not really shown that Simon really cared enough for Metis in my eyes, sure he admired her but nothing beyond a mentor-student relationship.

We also aren't really shown much that Metis cared that much for Athena. I mean, I'm sure she did and all, but (IIRC) all we actually get is Athena talking about how she felt ignored and abandoned by her mother, and then a line at the end by Simon saying that that wasn't the case.
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Bad Player wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Furthermore we're not really shown that Simon really cared enough for Metis in my eyes, sure he admired her but nothing beyond a mentor-student relationship.

We also aren't really shown much that Metis cared that much for Athena. I mean, I'm sure she did and all, but (IIRC) all we actually get is Athena talking about how she felt ignored and abandoned by her mother, and then a line at the end by Simon saying that that wasn't the case.


Yeah and Simon's way of showing it wasn't great either. Oh so your mother once gave you a gift? A pretty earring from a rare material?

It doesn't really show a great deal of care, more likely the bare minimum to not be considered neglectful.
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On the subject of Athena's underdeveloped relationships, I actually thought her friendship with Juniper felt pretty real and was well handled
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JesusMonroe wrote:
On the subject of Athena's underdeveloped relationships, I actually thought her friendship with Juniper felt pretty real and was well handled

Yeah, but I also felt it kinda clashed with the whole "isolated undeveloped social recluse" thing they built up for young!Athena
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Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
On the subject of Athena's underdeveloped relationships, I actually thought her friendship with Juniper felt pretty real and was well handled

Yeah, but I also felt it kinda clashed with the whole "isolated undeveloped social recluse" thing they built up for young!Athena

I think that was the point. The change between young Athena and present-day Athena was never the problem anyway.
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Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
On the subject of Athena's underdeveloped relationships, I actually thought her friendship with Juniper felt pretty real and was well handled

Yeah, but I also felt it kinda clashed with the whole "isolated undeveloped social recluse" thing they built up for young!Athena

Juniper could've been a recluse, too. There were probably a lot of kids in Athena's class who brooded in corners and soon, there weren't enough corners for everyone so Athena and Juniper had to share and eventually bond :pearl:
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
On the subject of Athena's underdeveloped relationships, I actually thought her friendship with Juniper felt pretty real and was well handled

Yeah, but I also felt it kinda clashed with the whole "isolated undeveloped social recluse" thing they built up for young!Athena

I think that was the point. The change between young Athena and present-day Athena was never the problem anyway.

Well, I mean making young!Juniper and young!Athena super-BFFs sorta clashed with the other things they said about young!Athena

JesusMonroe wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
On the subject of Athena's underdeveloped relationships, I actually thought her friendship with Juniper felt pretty real and was well handled

Yeah, but I also felt it kinda clashed with the whole "isolated undeveloped social recluse" thing they built up for young!Athena

Juniper could've been a recluse, too. There were probably a lot of kids in Athena's class who brooded in corners and soon, there weren't enough corners for everyone so Athena and Juniper had to share and eventually bond :pearl:

Makes sense to me
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Thane wrote:
So what you're saying is you've disagreed with us all this time because you fill in blanks yourself and as such the story is fine in your opinion?

Fair enough, then I'll do the same and adopt Pierre's android theory as canon, since it solves pretty much every major problem I have with her.

I'm still waiting on the moment when it's revealed that Athenazoid is actually the sniper sent to kill the Phantom. I mean, it's full-proof! Not one of these guys would even question that Athenazoid is not who she says she is! We never even paid any attention to the defense bench when Foolbright was shot! She just let him live to serve the rest of his days in utter terror.

I honestly don't see the point in the snark here. It's like Rubia said, there are some basic assumptions that enrich the universe. Athena and Simon's past relationship; Magatama being generally Fey domain; even Gregory's and Miles's interaction - which was never even told about, let alone shown; Miles's time with Franziska in Germany; Mia/Diego relationship; Dahlia and Iris during their time in Kurain village - I could go on.

Saying Simon covering for Athena is unrealistic, is well... it's on par with having problems with Miles's tragedy - we never had a proof of Miles's and Gregory's relationship during the time Gregory lived. How can he care about Gregory so much? Is it a flaw in the story?
But it's his emotions and actions that are proof. We know literally nothing about Gregory, aside from him being a good lawyer and Edgeworth's father, and yet, we somehow just know he was a good father to Miles. How?

These are things that naturally fit in, but these things can't involve major reveals or OCs, for that matter. Are you going to claim you see no difference? Because I honestly feel it's like I said - that this theory isn't even a theory, it's like trying to forcefully shove in your own opinion into canon information, because unlike "filling the blanks", it is really nowhere as subtle.

There's really a difference between that. Headcanon about Athena being android is okay itself, alright, but you make it sound like "Athena can't exist unless she's an android", which really feels wrong on me.
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I don't actually have a problem with the relationship with Juniper and Athena. Both being kinda secluded physical wrecks of little girl giving them cause to bond or whatever, sure I'll buy it.

Quote:
I honestly don't see the point in the snark here. It's like Rubia said, there are some basic assumptions that enrich the universe. Athena and Simon's past relationship; Magatama being generally Fey domain; even Gregory's and Miles's interaction - which was never even told about, let alone shown; Miles's time with Franziska in Germany; Mia/Diego relationship; Dahlia and Iris during their time in Kurain village - I could go on.

These are things that naturally fit in, but these things can't involve major reveals or OCs, for that matter. Are you going to claim you see no difference? Because I honestly feel, it's like I said - that this theory isn't even a theory, it's like trying to forcefully shove in your own opinion into canon information, because unlike "filling the blanks", it is really nowhere as subtle.

There's really a difference between that. Headcanon about Athena being android is okay, alright, but you make it sound like "Athena can't exist unless she's an android", which really feels wrong on me.


Actually AAI2 expands upon the interaction between Gregory and Mile's a bit. Though I guess the difference is, the relationship is never actually called into question. Athena and Blackquill's relationship is responsible for the entirety of case 5. It's not a small detail to rest in the background because they put it front and centre in importance.

Like I said small issues are ok: It's ok to assume characters eat sleep and do the basic functions. It's not ok for big issues to just assume and fill in the blanks because those are plotholes, things we expect to be covered by the game for it to make sense!

As for Athenazoid, you just need to let it go man, it's just a fun little theory and it's most definitely NOT being shoved down throats. I should take you back to the days where the shipping wars were RIFE on the forums and every single signature around this forum had proposed pairing on it. Some of which were even "Take thats" to other ships. THAT was ramming headcanon down other people's throats.
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This talk of the 'tell-don't-show' syndrome of Athena and Blackquill's relationship when they were younger, makes me think of how poorly they used anime cutscenes in the game. I mean, here we have an essential and extremely important plot-point to drive the final case and the ending of Dual Destinies' story home, but instead of saving some anime magic for these moments they wasted them on 15+ cutscenes of Athena mindlessly throwing a police officer into Apollo, Athena telling Juniper she's gonna defend her friend (wow, so necessary to have cinematic angles for one or two lines of dialogue) and scenes like the courtroom opening of 5-5, though admittedly important in concept, ended up being Nick and Edgey basically saying nothing meaningful and is just our standard trial opening but in anime.

We could've had like the most important scene in the game showing a flashback of Athena and Blackquill and co. at the robotics lab in the past, maybe showing a moment that Athena and Blackquill and/or Metis shared that made their bond so important. I really thought the majority of the cutscenes of DD felt like a waste of budget.
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linkenski wrote:
This talk of the 'tell-don't-show' syndrome of Athena and Blackquill's relationship when they were younger, makes me think of how poorly they used anime cutscenes in the game. I mean, here we have an essential and extremely important plot-point to drive the final case and the ending of Dual Destinies' story home, but instead of saving some anime magic for these moments they wasted them on 15+ cutscenes of Athena mindlessly throwing a police officer into Apollo, Athena telling Juniper she's gonna defend her friend (wow, so necessary to have cinematic angles for one or two lines of dialogue) and scenes like the courtroom opening of 5-5, though admittedly important in concept, ended up being Nick and Edgey basically saying nothing meaningful and is just our standard trial opening but in anime.

We could've had like the most important scene in the game showing a flashback of Athena and Blackquill and co. at the robotics lab in the past, maybe showing a moment that Athena and Blackquill and/or Metis shared that made their bond so important. I really thought the majority of the cutscenes of DD felt like a waste of budget.


Yeah I feel cutscenes and voice acting are actually used much better in PLvsPW as yeah...what the hell was with that cutscene of Athena going "I'll defend you!" in the classroom. Showing breakdowns and judgements and things like that, all come across rather amazingly in cutscenes and voiced. Hopefully they'll use them better in GS6 or DGS.
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