I honestly don't see the point in the snark here. It's like Rubia said, there are some basic assumptions that enrich the universe. Athena and Simon's past relationship; Magatama being generally Fey domain; even Gregory's and Miles's interaction - which was never even told about, let alone shown; Miles's time with Franziska in Germany; Mia/Diego relationship; Dahlia and Iris during their time in Kurain village - I could go on.

Saying Simon covering for Athena is unrealistic, is well... it's on par with having problems with Miles's tragedy - we never had a proof of Miles's and Gregory's relationship during the time Gregory lived. How can he care about Gregory so much? Is it a flaw in the story?
But it's his emotions and actions that are proof. We know literally nothing about Gregory, aside from him being a good lawyer and Edgeworth's father, and yet, we somehow just know he was a good father to Miles. How?

These are things that naturally fit in, but these things can't involve major reveals or OCs, for that matter. Are you going to claim you see no difference? Because I honestly feel it's like I said - that this theory isn't even a theory, it's like trying to forcefully shove in your own opinion into canon information, because unlike "filling the blanks", it is really nowhere as subtle.

Nah, I don't think an assistant should actually murder someone, not even by accident. Kay, however, could likely be charged with something else.

About Athena, they kept stating she had a strong desire to win cases...but so does Phoenix and Apollo; after all, they want to defend their innocent clients. If anything, Athena should've been trying to work on saving Simon from day one, and they should've shared a LOT more time on screen for the last case to have any impact. As it is, she's written like a fanfic character: a young woman comes blazing into the agency and becomes the center of attention without trying. And she's just so special, u guise.

The magatama thing is just about game mechanics, not story. It doesn't really change much.

There is a difference. I thought Athena was going to be like one of those prosecutors protecting their win record. She doesn't want the truth. She wants to win. She would lose a case, then learn from it. This could've been interesting, I think.

We already have Franziska.

And this is why the cross-examination mechanic to this day is the best mechanic. It integrates gameplay AND story. When Psyche-locks were first introduced, I hoped they would be able to further explore into Nick's character and his use of the Magatama. Instead, all we got was locks and secrets everywhere and more trouble to get through to people. 2-4's instance of foreshadowing was merely a ploy to introduce how unreliable it was. Pearl got way more out of it than Nick did, and she was merely following him around.

Psyche-Locks were actually meant as a visualization of him asking questions as usual.

GS1 investigation gameplay works pretty much the same, even without Psyche-Locks.

It's kind of hard to explain, but Mary Sues are characters that are always right, liked by every other character, have a one of a kind power or item that isn't explained, are never punished for bad actions (and are even praised for them), have a trauma that goes away easily and is used to make the reader pity them, and can do everything by themselves.

I don't want to invade the Athena fanclub thread, but I just can't not respond...

Those things are exactly Athena, except for the last one. (And no, being disliked by the killers and Aura doesn't count.)

Why doesn't being disliked by Aura count? She's not portrayed as a villain; more of an anti-hero

Anyway, pretty much every female character in the series has Sue tendencies. I think the term "Mary Sue" should only be reserved for the absolute worst of those characters.

Athena can't do everything by herself. They make that clear in Case 1, 3, and 5

On another tangent, I had an idea to improve Athena's character but I didn't really wanna revive this thread before. Basically, people have mentioned before that they thought Athena would go the "You killed my mother" route with Simon. I think that would've been a cool motivation for Athena to become a lawyer; she wanted to enter the field to face off against Simon in the courtroom and embarrass him. She wanted to humiliate the veteran prosecutor when he got beaten by a rookie and let him know that nobody loved him before he got executed and that she would never forgive him for what he did to her (even throw in an explanation of how she wouldn't scan his heart because she wouldn't want to peek into his soul or something). This could even contribute to Case 5 with Simon becoming more resigned for his execution. When he's declared innocent, Athena would have an actual reason to be upset because she was wrong in a significant way. She could even hate Nick during Case 5 when he's trying to acquit the both of them. I don't know. I was just thinking it was a simple change to the story that could vastly improve it

Is Athena really liked by everyone? The only people I thought explicitly liked her was Juniper and WAA cast. Blackquill is a special case too.

Themis people weren't even all that nice to her and Solomon felt bad for her once, because that's what you do when someone who put all their effort into defending you is arrested, while you trust they wouldn't kill - feel bad for them.

Themis people might have warmed up after the case, but also keep in mind their mutual friendships... They are literally on the "I just met you, but my friend says you're cool, so let's give it a try" level.

I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.

I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.

Have a trauma that vanishes easily
- Except it doesn't. She needs Phoenix to take over for her in 5-1 and Apollo and Juniper and her friends to assure her she's doing the right thing in 5-3. In 5-5 she admits that she needed people to help her face her traumatic past.

Phoenix and Apollo also don't like how she gets information out of people. She also acts like a jerk towards Myriam which makes her depressed and causes her to almost delete all of her files on her laptop. Apollo tells Athena she needs to face the consequences of her actions at this point.

I don't see how acting like her trauma never happened is a point against her. Plenty of other characters with tragic back stories put on a façade to mask their problems. Some characters become bitter and cold, openly voicing their distaste.

Oh, yes, the earlier games are all about Phoenix, that means he's a Mary Sue, right?

...What? You make a semi-decent point in the first part of the post; I'd need to replay DD to go back and fully address it. And I really don't feel like doing that. But there's plenty wrong to point out in this paragraph.

First of all, the people you're listing are basically all main characters or people Nick got acquitted. Of course they're going to like him.

Second, they didn't like him "on literally the same basis" as Athena. For example, Maya doesn't really warm up to Nick until he gets her off the hook for murder. Gumshoe doesn't warm up to him until he defends Edgeworth. Athena, meanwhile, never "proves" herself; she's accepted from the start. In the very first things we heard about Athena, they tell us how they need her because she has super-amazing superpowers that are going to save them.

Third, you're forgetting all the other characters. Go replay AA, and see how people react when Nick takes out his badge. They shut up like a clam. (Recall April, Oldbag, and Lotta, if you need specific examples.) It does die down a bit in JFA and T&T as Nick builds a bit more of a reputation, but when you get to AJ, Apollo is basically everyone's butt monkey. Meanwhile, Athena doesn't really have trouble with any witnesses.

Fourth, I have never claimed Athena was a Sue either because her win number or percentage.

Fifth, even if I did, I also called Athena a Sue for a variety of other traits, like become a lawyer-psychologist at a really young age, having unexplained superpowers, etc. Nick having just one trait would not nearly be sufficient to turn him into a Sue. (But again, this point is moot, because that was never one of the reasons I claimed Athena was a Sue.)

@MBr: Don't have time to respond now ^^"

I believe the first post is still the best post. Athena as a character isn't a Mary Sue but her role in the game makes her seem like one.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo Athena? *shot*

Considering that it's the only game she's been in I'd say it's fair enough to say as a character she IS a Mary Sue.

If her status improves in the next game then sure you can say "Well she's not a Mary Sue but was only for that game" but as far as we know as she is right now, she has a lot of Sue traits.

I don't see how acting like her trauma never happened is a point against her. Plenty of other characters with tragic back stories put on a façade to mask their problems. Some characters become bitter and cold, openly voicing their distaste.

Wasn't it Marty Sue for male characters though?

Edit: Either way, I still don't get "everyone likes Athena" point:

I believe the first post is still the best post. Athena as a character isn't a Mary Sue but her role in the game makes her seem like one.

-snip-

She's... not really a "hero," I think. And I agree she isn't on the same level of "villain" as the killers. But she's explicitly a criminal--just like all the people who dislike Athena.

I specifically said that that one didn't apply to Athena

But it was the only one. Putting aside the pointless distinction over whether Athena is a Sue or just a "regular" terrible character, there's still the fact that in trying to defend Athena from the title of Mary Sue, it's a list of Sue traits, all but one of which Athena fulfills.

...That'd definitely improve her complexity and deepen her character. That alone wouldn't fix her "I somehow transformed from an isolated, traumatized 11 year old in a foreign country to an 18 year old lawyer psychologist, and I have unique magic powers along with hyper-advanced technology!!", but it'd certainly be a way to help the fact that DD's story was basically copy+pasted from 1-5.

Wasn't it Marty Sue for male characters though?

Just wait, BP. Takumi's gonna one-up Yamazaki on the ridiculo-scale with Iris Watson. Every one of the stories she writes will be huge best sellers, and she'll be Miss Little Perfect wherever she goes. She may even get some moments when she's the one correcting Holmes, instead of Ryuu, and rules the entirety of England with her cutesy moe charm. Then Ryuu and Susato will return home to Japan and spread rumors of Europe being a very strange place where 8-year-olds can be M.D.s and best-seller writers and a great detective whose fame is spread because of said 8-year-old.

Then again I think he already one-upped Yamazaki with Espella

I still don't really see what the big deal with Espella was. It's not like she was character of the year or anything, but it's not like she had any special powers, the fact that she was Storyteller's daughter justified the stuff that was done for her, and her self-loathing made her a much more interesting character than the others in PLvAA.

My stance on this aspect of Athena is something you already touched on

Basically, I don't think Yamazaki was thinking, "Let's make Athena amazing by having her be 18 years old!" They just made her 18 because Ace Attorney. It was meant to be normal in-universe

Eh, they might not be gushing with overwhelming praise and adoration, but they're still relatively open with information, compared to witnesses in the first game.

I honestly don't know. You could also say everyone likes Nick on literally the same basis. Mia, Maya, Pearl, Gumshoe, Larry, Edgeworth, Ema, Lana, Trucy, Apollo, Athena? Hell, even Will, Maggey, DeLites, Adrian and Means of all people. He also won all 16 cases he defended in. 20, if you count PLvsAA. I feel like by your standards, Nick is the worst Sue.

I'm fairly neutral in the debate over whether Athena is a Mary Sue or not, though I am curious about one thing. To the people who say Athena is NOT a Mary Sue... If Athena isn't a Mary Sue, what WOULD make her one? What can be changed or added to her character to make her a Mary Sue?

Speaking of Apollo, have you heard of anyone ever doubting a Sue? Let's get rid of the "Apollo leaves the agency" and instead make Apollo Athena's perfect boyfriend!

Wait, BP, how is Athena always right? Unless you mean the way that a playable defense attorney is always right.