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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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I wouldn't say that 5-5 stole the plot of 1-5, but rather that DL-6 + SL-9 = UR-1.

Personally, I found the cases very enjoyable, but the overarching plot was still pretty weak and the game as a whole had some serious problems (like the gameplay, which is easily the worst in the series). It's still my third favorite game of the franchise, though. But T&T and PW:AA are above it by far.
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ob9410 wrote:
Huh, good points. I would say something...but I guess I'm just biased, it was my first game in the series after like 3 years. And I guess I only liked the last case because of the twist...but if you don't mind me asking, how was it copied from 1-5
Spoiler: DD Case 5 spoiler
Other than Athena of course


I didn't say that it's copied, I'd say that they're linked (case 1 to case 4 and 4 to case 5)
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Slammer wrote:
ob9410 wrote:
Huh, good points. I would say something...but I guess I'm just biased, it was my first game in the series after like 3 years. And I guess I only liked the last case because of the twist...but if you don't mind me asking, how was it copied from 1-5
Spoiler: DD Case 5 spoiler
Other than Athena of course


I didn't say that it's copied, I said that they're linked (case 1 to case 4 and 4 to case 5)

When I said 1-5 I meant AA Case 5, and I wasn't replying to you. Haha. :edgey:
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ob9410 wrote:
Slammer wrote:
ob9410 wrote:
Huh, good points. I would say something...but I guess I'm just biased, it was my first game in the series after like 3 years. And I guess I only liked the last case because of the twist...but if you don't mind me asking, how was it copied from 1-5
Spoiler: DD Case 5 spoiler
Other than Athena of course


I didn't say that it's copied, I said that they're linked (case 1 to case 4 and 4 to case 5)

When I said 1-5 I meant AA Case 5, and I wasn't replying to you. Haha. :edgey:


Oh, I apologize.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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I fail to understand why some of you say case 3 is the best. For me, it's the worst, even if you play as my favourite character. I'd like to hear your reasons for this.

If I give off the impression that I hate Dual Destinies, it's not my intention. I'm just bothered by all of the problems with it. I guess I really want it to be good, and I end up getting disappointed. Originally, I ranked DD as my favourite AA game, but then it fell to third and now it's below my top 3.
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MBr wrote:
I fail to understand why some of you say case 3 is the best. For me, it's the worst, even if you play as my favourite character. I'd like to hear your reasons for this.

I don't really have a favourite case per se since I find DD very uneven and have favourite parts instead of favourite cases - I didn't find the actual investigations in DD that exciting since I got a completely different feeling from the original trilogy. (I very often found myself just waiting for the trials.) But even so, I actually found case 3 the most even one because of the simple reason that I got entertained - I liked the investigations here because I found many of the characters endearing - it was an overall silly-fun case according to me. My absolute favourite moments aren't from that case, but I had fun waiting for them.
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MBr wrote:
I fail to understand why some of you say case 3 is the best. For me, it's the worst, even if you play as my favourite character. I'd like to hear your reasons for this.

If I give off the impression that I hate Dual Destinies, it's not my intention. I'm just bothered by all of the problems with it. I guess I really want it to be good, and I end up getting disappointed. Originally, I ranked DD as my favourite AA game, but then it fell to third and now it's below my top 3.

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MBr wrote:
I fail to understand why some of you say case 3 is the best. For me, it's the worst, even if you play as my favourite character. I'd like to hear your reasons for this.

If I give off the impression that I hate Dual Destinies, it's not my intention. I'm just bothered by all of the problems with it. I guess I really want it to be good, and I end up getting disappointed. Originally, I ranked DD as my favourite AA game, but then it fell to third and now it's below my top 3.


5-3 is my favorite case in Dual Destinies, simply because it's the one I enjoyed more. I loved practically every single minute of it. For starters, I think in it's the funniest case in the franchise. The cast is great, too. The only character involved I dislike is Means pre-going crazy, and I love everyone else. I liked a lot playing as Athena because she was constantly proving that no matter how many languages she speaks or how many police officers she can knock out, she's still as much of a rookie as you can get. Also, she's hilarious. The mystery is good and there were some really cool twists that I didn't see coming at all. One thing that DD does very well is creating an obvious twist to make you think that you've already solved everything and then turning everything around completely(like what they did with the true identity of the Amazing Nine Tales, to say an example), and that happens a few times during this case. Of course, it had its problems (the end justifies the means! Urgh), but it's still one of my favorites cases ever.
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ob9410 wrote:
if you don't mind me asking, how was it copied from 1-5

link

MBr wrote:
I fail to understand why some of you say case 3 is the best. For me, it's the worst, even if you play as my favourite character. I'd like to hear your reasons for this.

It's the most complex crime, it's a themed murder, it had the most twists of all the cases, and I liked Scuttlebutt.

Of course, it definitely has some problems. Mostly in the first day--in retrospect, the first day in court seems kinda pointless, and there were some weird implications in "outing" Robin.

Also, (for me, personally) "my favorite DD case" is really not a high bar.
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Bad Player wrote:
and there were some weird implications in "outing" Robin.

I fully agree when it comes to that certain matter.
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WaitingforGodot wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
and there were some weird implications in "outing" Robin.

I fully agree when it comes to that certain matter.



Left a really bad taste in the mouth for sure.
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Pierre wrote:
WaitingforGodot wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
and there were some weird implications in "outing" Robin.

I fully agree when it comes to that certain matter.



Left a really bad taste in the mouth for sure.


It wasn't really that bad. I mean, it was ultimately Robin herself who decided to reveal the secret, and nobody believed that she was a girl before that. Athena only encouraged her to do so because she new that she didn't like the bracelet thanks to the Mood Matrix.
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Bad Player wrote:
ob9410 wrote:
if you don't mind me asking, how was it copied from 1-5

link

Spoiler: 5-5
All of the points fit in, except one. How did the Phantom frame Athena for the murder? She unwittingly incriminated herself by trying to "fix" her mother.


Bad Player wrote:
MBr wrote:
I fail to understand why some of you say case 3 is the best. For me, it's the worst, even if you play as my favourite character. I'd like to hear your reasons for this.

It's the most complex crime, it's a themed murder, it had the most twists of all the cases, and I liked Scuttlebutt.

Of course, it definitely has some problems. Mostly in the first day--in retrospect, the first day in court seems kinda pointless, and there were some weird implications in "outing" Robin.

Also, (for me, personally) "my favorite DD case" is really not a high bar.

I can get behind the themed murder, although that soared over my head. My least favourite part of the whole thing is
Spoiler: 5-3
how Juniper is even suspected because the murder matches her script. That would be foolishly :franny: incriminating herself.

Also, we find out at the very end of the trial that Means had seen the script, when we should have been the one to prove it.

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Slammer wrote:
Sorry for this, but I'm newbie: how can I delete the double post?

Report the post and wait for a mod to take care of it :P
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Bad Player wrote:
The main problem is that the dark age of the law just doesn't make any sense. We know of plenty of attorneys, prosecutors, and law enforcement agents before Nick and Blackquill that were corrupt--so why did they kick off the dark age of the law? Plus, when we expose the truth behind the dark age of the law, the true culprits are another attorney and a police officer--so how is that supposed to restore the public's faith? There's also a bit of a "tell but not show" problem.

As far as the creation of the DAotL goes, think of it as a "straw breaking the camels back" sort of thing. Japanifornialand has seen so many people in power go down over the years, but, at the very least, there's been one person, seemingly always in the midst of things, to see that justice is served: Phoenix Wright. He's the one person known for consistently fighting for the truth without some sort of shady background.

Now it turns out that he was corrupt as well. The last bastion of hope, so to speak, goes down the drain. Phoenix's disbarment isn't so much the cause of the Dark Age of the Law as it is the final push over the edge.

I'm speculating a bit on how Blackquill works into this as well, but I would imagine it would have to do with the way he was convicted. His trial was over pretty quickly, so it was quite possibly interpreted as the prosecutor's office railroading one of its own. I kind of get the sense that Blackquill wasn't so much a contributor in the same way that Phoenix was, he just wound up being a figurehead for it. A corrupt prosecutor tossed in jail with a suspicious trial to boot.

On how revealing the culprits fixes things, it doesn't fix them immediately. In fact, the game goes well out of its way (particularly at the end with Edgeworth) to say that things aren't going to suddenly improve overnight. It's more about taking the first steps in the right direction. Admitting that Blackquill's trial was a mistake and taking steps to make the prosecutor's office more transparent. It's not an overnight solution, and Edgeworth himself says that it'll take time in his appearance during the credits. It's just the start of hopefully turning things around.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
The main problem is that the dark age of the law just doesn't make any sense. We know of plenty of attorneys, prosecutors, and law enforcement agents before Nick and Blackquill that were corrupt--so why did they kick off the dark age of the law? Plus, when we expose the truth behind the dark age of the law, the true culprits are another attorney and a police officer--so how is that supposed to restore the public's faith? There's also a bit of a "tell but not show" problem.

As far as the creation of the DAotL goes, think of it as a "straw breaking the camels back" sort of thing. Japanifornialand has seen so many people in power go down over the years, but, at the very least, there's been one person, seemingly always in the midst of things, to see that justice is served: Phoenix Wright. He's the one person known for consistently fighting for the truth without some sort of shady background.

Now it turns out that he was corrupt as well. The last bastion of hope, so to speak, goes down the drain. Phoenix's disbarment isn't so much the cause of the Dark Age of the Law as it is the final push over the edge.

I'm speculating a bit on how Blackquill works into this as well, but I would imagine it would have to do with the way he was convicted. His trial was over pretty quickly, so it was quite possibly interpreted as the prosecutor's office railroading one of its own. I kind of get the sense that Blackquill wasn't so much a contributor in the same way that Phoenix was, he just wound up being a figurehead for it. A corrupt prosecutor tossed in jail with a suspicious trial to boot.

On how revealing the culprits fixes things, it doesn't fix them immediately. In fact, the game goes well out of its way (particularly at the end with Edgeworth) to say that things aren't going to suddenly improve overnight. It's more about taking the first steps in the right direction. Admitting that Blackquill's trial was a mistake and taking steps to make the prosecutor's office more transparent. It's not an overnight solution, and Edgeworth himself says that it'll take time in his appearance during the credits. It's just the start of hopefully turning things around.


I agree with this completely.
And also because when Athena speaks up she's ignored...maybe that also had something to do with it? The courts ignoring potential witnesses?
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ob9410 wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
The main problem is that the dark age of the law just doesn't make any sense. We know of plenty of attorneys, prosecutors, and law enforcement agents before Nick and Blackquill that were corrupt--so why did they kick off the dark age of the law? Plus, when we expose the truth behind the dark age of the law, the true culprits are another attorney and a police officer--so how is that supposed to restore the public's faith? There's also a bit of a "tell but not show" problem.

As far as the creation of the DAotL goes, think of it as a "straw breaking the camels back" sort of thing. Japanifornialand has seen so many people in power go down over the years, but, at the very least, there's been one person, seemingly always in the midst of things, to see that justice is served: Phoenix Wright. He's the one person known for consistently fighting for the truth without some sort of shady background.

Now it turns out that he was corrupt as well. The last bastion of hope, so to speak, goes down the drain. Phoenix's disbarment isn't so much the cause of the Dark Age of the Law as it is the final push over the edge.

I'm speculating a bit on how Blackquill works into this as well, but I would imagine it would have to do with the way he was convicted. His trial was over pretty quickly, so it was quite possibly interpreted as the prosecutor's office railroading one of its own. I kind of get the sense that Blackquill wasn't so much a contributor in the same way that Phoenix was, he just wound up being a figurehead for it. A corrupt prosecutor tossed in jail with a suspicious trial to boot.

On how revealing the culprits fixes things, it doesn't fix them immediately. In fact, the game goes well out of its way (particularly at the end with Edgeworth) to say that things aren't going to suddenly improve overnight. It's more about taking the first steps in the right direction. Admitting that Blackquill's trial was a mistake and taking steps to make the prosecutor's office more transparent. It's not an overnight solution, and Edgeworth himself says that it'll take time in his appearance during the credits. It's just the start of hopefully turning things around.


I agree with this completely.
And also because when Athena speaks up she's ignored...maybe that also had something to do with it? The courts ignoring potential witnesses?


Athena was a eleven years old close acquaintance of the defendant claiming that 'his heart is screaming that he didn't do it', so that's probably the most reasonable part about Blackquill's trial. She does something similar during the Phantom's cross-examination and the people in the gallery starts commenting how wrong that is. And then the judge proceeds to completely ignore them and accept Athena's claim anyways. That probably helped a lot to increase people's faith in the courts, too.

And that's the real problem here. It's clearly stated that it was people's mistrust which caused the corruption and not the other way around, and yet, nothing that happened in Turnabout for Tomorrow should logically solve that. Actually, it'd probably make things worse. So no matter what you do against corruption, the root of the problem (the mistrust) is still there.

Also, there's no real reason why admitting that Blackquill trial was a mess should be the first step to solve all the corruption, other than to make the two persons who allegedly started the Dark Age of Law end it poetically. For starters, nobody thought that there was something fishy with Blackquill's trial before Phoenix exposed it. And you'd think that the Chief Prosecutor of all people would have the power to do something about the corruption in the Prosecutor's Office regardless of the conviction of some specific prosecutor who was found guilty of murder, not of forging evidence, pressing false charges (No, really, this part is hilarious. The fact that prosecutors press false charges is considered a part of the Dark Age of Law. In a game about defending people against false charges.) or anything related to his job.

So, the Dark Age of Law is basically a not-very-well thought excuse to give Nick his badge back and tie him to the the plot.
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luck wrote:
So, the Dark Age of Law is basically a not-very-well thought excuse to give Nick his badge back and tie him to the the plot.


Preeetty much.
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My personal overall opinion of DD was that I enjoyed it, but being real about it, it's one of the weaker games in the series. I don't want to make is seem like I don't like Dual Destinies, because that's simply not true, I do like it, but I had the most issues with this game then any other. Like never before in any of the AA games during my first play-through, did I actually complain and point out so many flaws (That didn't make me giggle).
I get that games aren't perfect, so when there are errors, I tend to point em out and giggle, but in DD there were so many and so frequent that It gave me an utter sense of disconnect.

Dual Destinies didn't have a single one case that was altogether amazing, but it DID have PARTS of the game that were; and that's what makes me like it. This game was a roller coaster of WHAT EVEN IS THAT?! to OOOH MAN THAT'S EPIC! But it was very enjoyable and it was lovely to see recurring characters again, AND to see a new colourful cast! :edgey:
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Misokrattz wrote:
Dual Destinies didn't have a single one case that was altogether amazing, but it DID have PARTS of the game that were; and that's what makes me like it. This game was a roller coaster of WHAT EVEN IS THAT?! to OOOH MAN THAT'S EPIC! But it was very enjoyable and it was lovely to see recurring characters again, AND to see a new colourful cast!

Yes! That. :kristoph:
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luck wrote:
And that's the real problem here. It's clearly stated that it was people's mistrust which caused the corruption and not the other way around, and yet, nothing that happened in Turnabout for Tomorrow should logically solve that. Actually, it'd probably make things worse. So no matter what you do against corruption, the root of the problem (the mistrust) is still there.

Also, there's no real reason why admitting that Blackquill trial was a mess should be the first step to solve all the corruption, other than to make the two persons who allegedly started the Dark Age of Law end it poetically. For starters, nobody thought that there was something fishy with Blackquill's trial before Phoenix exposed it. And you'd think that the Chief Prosecutor of all people would have the power to do something about the corruption in the Prosecutor's Office regardless of the conviction of some specific prosecutor who was found guilty of murder, not of forging evidence, pressing false charges (No, really, this part is hilarious. The fact that prosecutors press false charges is considered a part of the Dark Age of Law. In a game about defending people against false charges.) or anything related to his job.

So, the Dark Age of Law is basically a not-very-well thought excuse to give Nick his badge back and tie him to the the plot.

I'm going to take the bold portions in turn, because I think they're worth addressing individually.

The mistrust likely led to further corruption. The AA court system was corrupt well before the mistrust that came about as a result of the DAotL, so it certainly doesn't make since for mistrust to be the root cause of everything. The implication that I got from the game is that the increased mistrust in the court system (due to Phoenix and Blackquill falling from grace) led to things being more corrupt than they were before. Sort of a snowball effect. The courts are moderately corrupt, so people don't trust them, so prosecutors don't see a reason to even try to uphold a sense of justice, and the cycle continues. Which leads me to my next point, tackling the second bolded section...

...if corruption is, ultimately, at the root of the problem, or at the very least part of the snowball effect then it does make sense as to why dealing with that would help. If the Prosecutor's office comes out and admits "Hey, we screwed up," and tries to make its proceedings more transparent, then that stops the snowball effect and allows trust to be rebuilt over time. Again, it's certainly not an instant fix, but it's the first step in the right direction.

Moving to the third and final bolded section, I'd argue you actually listed why admitting the Blackquill trial was a mess helps the problem in your own post. Consider this; if Blackquill is viewed by the public as a symbol of sorts of the corrupt nature of the justice system, getting the correct ruling in that case essentially tears down one of the biggest symbols of the courts being corrupt. It's a way to make a statement, so to speak. How do you demonstrate to the public that you're serious about undoing corruption? By making sure the guy who's viewed as one of the biggest symbols of corruption gets a fair ruling.
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Now that I think about it, was it ever stated who coined the term "Dark Age of the Law" or how it came about in the news? It really feels like one of those things the media would think is really cool to advertise as something completely new and different, while just about everything that is corrupt has always been around since, say, DGS's time.

Blarghman makes a good point with the snowball effect, but that's merely the result of such corruption being leaked to the public. Even if Blackquill's ruling doesn't do much to help the actual source of the corruption, at least it makes for a good show of the courts doing something about it.

Besides, the way the DAL was presented in this game only demands for it to return in the next game. If they're going to pull something half-assed like this theme from a single line in the previous game, then they're going to haul a lot of ass later to make up for it.

I can only wish the Mood Matrix could be updated. Four emoticons seems way too simple.
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I didn't get the impression that the 5-5 was about bringing down the international spy known as The Phantom, but rather, about exposing the murderer of Metis Cykes and Clay Terran, who just happened to be an international spy. So I doubt that we're going to know who did he work for. It's a hunch I have.

And I think the characters mentioned a few times how it was finally time to end the dark age of law once and for all. Although that was probably just for the sake of making it grand and epic.
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Still seems to me like a lot of you don't even know what the Dark Age of The Law really means.

It was clearly implied at some point that the reason why we now call it "the Dark Age of Law" is because the public has lost their trust because of too many cases that revealed corrupt higher-ranking members of the court, Phoenix's disbarment etc. The emphasis clearly should've been in showing us how no one trusted the legal system in Japanifornia anymore, but DD just never goes there. Instead it dabbles into some nonsense about the Dark Age of Law created by one trial (UR-1) and Phoenix's disbarment, showing us how Teachers using placeholder methods (what does "the end justifies the means METHOD" actually involve? How do you teach in it?).

The game then tells us that once we solve this one case (that the world apparently cares about) the Dark Age of Law (public distrust in law) automatically disappears.

Dark Age of Law as caused by UR-1 = nonsense -- The game thinks this is true however
Dark Age of Law as caused by Means' "methods" of teaching = Too vague. How does one teacher's influence with what we've known Means to have done bring a "dark age" upon the law? It's a very weak argument from the story to justify the theme of Dark Age of Lol. -- Game thinks this is true.
Dark Age of Law as caused by multiple cases over 10 years of corrupt high-ranking members of the legal system, causing disbelief and distrust in the public, in magazines, in TV (often implied everyone watches courtroom battles on TV in Ace Attorney-land lol), perhaps causing people to protest (potential case here?) -- yet, the game never goes with this idea at all.

Super dumb and vaguely written in a way that makes no sense. The main intended theme of DD isn't even a true theme, but a pretentious one.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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linkenski wrote:
The game then tells us that once we solve this one case (that the world apparently cares about) the Dark Age of Law (public distrust in law) automatically disappears.

Dark Age of Law as caused by UR-1 = nonsense -- The game thinks this is true however
Dark Age of Law as caused by Means' "methods" of teaching = Too vague. How does one teacher's influence with what we've known Means to have done bring a "dark age" upon the law? It's a very weak argument from the story to justify the theme of Dark Age of Lol. -- Game thinks this is true.
Dark Age of Law as caused by multiple cases over 10 years of corrupt high-ranking members of the legal system, causing disbelief and distrust in the public, in magazines, in TV (often implied everyone watches courtroom battles on TV in Ace Attorney-land lol), perhaps causing people to protest (potential case here?) -- yet, the game never goes with this idea at all.

Super dumb and vaguely written in a way that makes no sense. The main intended theme of DD isn't even a true theme, but a pretentious one.

The game never says that solving the UR1 case fixes the Dark Age of the Law. In fact, it does the exact opposite. Here's some dialogue taken from the game's ending (in the lobby after the fifth case ends), quoted word for word.

=====
Phoenix: Hey, Edgeworth, think we can finally bring the dark age of the law to an end?
Edgeworth: Even the darkest night turns to sun eventually...Our sun will rise again.
=====

In other words, the Dark Age of the Law isn't over yet. Both Edgeworth and Phoenix acknowledge that it's still ongoing. The problem isn't solved; the Blackquill case is just the first step in the right direction. The game makes it pretty clear, at least imo.

As for the other stuff in your post, I think you're confusing causation. Professor Means' "by any means possible" philosophy is a product of the Dark Age of the Law. He references on numerous occasions that "in these dark times," you have to win by whatever means possible. The dark times cause his philosophy. His philosophy certainly doesn't help things out, and probably contributes to the snowball effect I mentioned earlier, but the game never, ever suggests that it's the causation of the Dark Age.

I'm not...entirely sure what the rest of your post is talking about. I think you're trying to say that the game doesn't show us enough of people doubting the court system? (correct me if I'm wrong). If this is the case, the game does take several opportunities to show us that people don't trust the court system. Aura Blackquill kidnaps a group of hostages because she doesn't trust the court system to handle a retrial correctly. There's a bit in Case 5 where Athena listens to the crowd of people attending the trial and realizes no one trusts anything she's saying because of the DAotL. It's mentioned in conversation repeatedly that the court system isn't trusted by Phoenix and Edgeworth. So...yeah, I think the game does more than enough to demonstrate that the courts aren't trusted.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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But they talk about DAotL as if it's almost like some physical thing, and not an era or a state. I know Edgeworth and Nick talk a bit more realistically about it post-court in the final case but several times in court they're like "we're gonna solve this case and END the dark age of law". I know I shouldn't take it this literally, but still, I think the game doesn't do enough to convince you that the legal system is in turmoil by showing the surroundings or what's on the periphery outside of individual people or cases.

Means doesn't work because he's so friggin basic. He's a jerk who bribes his students for money while teaching in (some sort of) a style in which you practice reasoning and logic where the end justifies the means. It seems as if the writers wanted the theme to be "this guy is very end justifies the means" but they didn't have to outright make him say what his own characteristics were. It's basic show-don't-tell that they (as always) break. If you wanna tell me that something is going on, show it to me. Show me its impact, its implications and effect on the world, the characters etc. don't tell me something is happening and don't show it. All we're shown is that Means is bad because he bribes someone. It tells us he's bad because his philosophy is very rational... or something. It never actually shows us the effect of his teachings, it just says "he's bad" but his actions don't show anything impressive.

Means doesn't do much to convince me that the legal system is in turmoil, neither does UR-1. Nothing is worse than ever when compared to AA1, but collectively all the past cases and UR-1 along with Means could've been used to show us how the public had no trust anymore.

Maybe there were signs of it. IDK, Scuttlebutt? Aura? Whatever it was, I did not feel convinced at all. IMO they showed less than enough to convince you that the public was in distrust. We needed more characters who outright rejected court or maybe even the police causing uproar in protest that the courts are full of criminals or something to that effect. I think the theme of Dark Age of the Law seems so grand that it's just too grimdark or political for Ace Attorney to handle tbh.
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'The ends justifies the means' thing in Turnabout Academy (A case that I actually loved overall) was downright stupid.

So Means is evil because he uses evil means to achieve evil goals. Well, obviously. And also obviously, if you use good means to achieve good goals, then you're good. The only possible discussion would be whether using evil means to achieve good goals is right or wrong. And that's where 'the end justifies the means' philosophy comes into play. Means makes Machiavelli cry.
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luck wrote:
So Means is evil because he uses evil means to achieve evil goals. Well, obviously. And also obviously, if you use good means to achieve good goals, then you're good. The only possible discussion would be whether using evil means to achieve good goals is right or wrong. And that's where 'the end justifies the means' philosophy comes into play. Means makes Machiavelli cry.


It would have made that case OH SO MUCH MORE AWESOME if Means did the "ends Justifies the means" thing, if he was doing "bad" things to have a positive result and it questioned the morality of the characters. It would have had a much bigger impact. But his ends justifies the means was only made in selfishness so it just made him a bad human being and that's it. I also don't think he had a good motive in that case, did he...? :sadshoe:
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linkenski wrote:
But they talk about DAotL as if it's almost like some physical thing, and not an era or a state. I know Edgeworth and Nick talk a bit more realistically about it post-court in the final case but several times in court they're like "we're gonna solve this case and END the dark age of law". I know I shouldn't take it this literally, but still, I think the game doesn't do enough to convince you that the legal system is in turmoil by showing the surroundings or what's on the periphery outside of individual people or cases.

Means doesn't work because he's so friggin basic. He's a jerk who bribes his students for money while teaching in (some sort of) a style in which you practice reasoning and logic where the end justifies the means. It seems as if the writers wanted the theme to be "this guy is very end justifies the means" but they didn't have to outright make him say what his own characteristics were. It's basic show-don't-tell that they (as always) break. If you wanna tell me that something is going on, show it to me. Show me its impact, its implications and effect on the world, the characters etc. don't tell me something is happening and don't show it. All we're shown is that Means is bad because he bribes someone. It tells us he's bad because his philosophy is very rational... or something. It never actually shows us the effect of his teachings, it just says "he's bad" but his actions don't show anything impressive.

Means doesn't do much to convince me that the legal system is in turmoil, neither does UR-1. Nothing is worse than ever when compared to AA1, but collectively all the past cases and UR-1 along with Means could've been used to show us how the public had no trust anymore.

Maybe there were signs of it. IDK, Scuttlebutt? Aura? Whatever it was, I did not feel convinced at all. IMO they showed less than enough to convince you that the public was in distrust. We needed more characters who outright rejected court or maybe even the police causing uproar in protest that the courts are full of criminals or something to that effect. I think the theme of Dark Age of the Law seems so grand that it's just too grimdark or political for Ace Attorney to handle tbh.

I think the conversations referred to in court about ending the DAotL are mostly those between Phoenix and Blackquill in Case 5, where Blackquill professes his desire to bring it to an end by "cutting down" the "specter of the last seven years." Honestly, I wouldn't read into that too much. That's just Blackquill using his samurai lingo.

I'd also argue that I think the game shows plenty of people who either distrust the court system or have obviously been negatively affected by it. Aura Blackquill, again, is motivated by her extreme distrust for the courts. One of Athena's main motivation is to overcome the helplessness she felt when being ignored by the courts long ago. Professor Means shows up as basically the epitome of why the courts are distrusted. Even if he's a poorly done character, I think the game certainly shows either distrust or the negative effects of the DAotL enough to make it believable. If memory serves, I think Norma DePlume and Herman Crab both express distrust towards Phoenix for being a lawyer as well in the DLC case (not as sure on that one though).

I will agree on Professor Means being a lame character, though. He strikes me as a villain on par with Manfred Von Karma, someone who keeps repeating the same line (in this case, "ends justify the means" over and over again and has no real depth or complexity to him. Probably one of the reasons why Case 3 wound up being my least favorite of the game (well, that and the consistent bludgeoning with various themes). It's kind of a shame, because it wound up being a big missed opportunity, as Case 3 was pretty great as far as the actual case solving went.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title

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What about the bonus case? Anyone gonna talk about that?
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Most people loved it. I found it to be rather boring throughout a good third, but it had some of the best character designs in the game and a quite satisfying culrpit motivation/circumstance.

It was also great to play as Phoenix again, in a case that wasn't overly serious.
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mujie wrote:
What about the bonus case? Anyone gonna talk about that?

You defend a whale, it was fun. Nuff said.
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DR CRAB. ...enough said. :klavier:
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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Going for Miles wrote:
DR CRAB. ...enough said. :klavier:

This.
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mujie wrote:
What about the bonus case? Anyone gonna talk about that?

Best case, but still suffers the same issues that affect the rest of DD.

I'm replaying this game again, so expect more complaints from me. My opinions have changed dramatically for this game, more than any other AA game.
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Quite fun. :shoe: Dr. Crab. I really liked Sasha. Simon being cute about birds. Dr. Crab. Athena and Sasha having cute interactions. Pearl being adorable. Dr. Crab. Fulbright being a sweet dork and incredibly creepy. A cute song. Shame that Apollo was left behind. Dr. Crab.
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Maybe I've understood, maybe not, but... what's with Dr. Crab?
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As for me, I just simply adore him, how grouchy and dedicated he is. Easily my favourite new character in that case.
Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
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