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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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DeiStar wrote:
I find Dual Destinies to be the worst Ace Attorney game after Investigations 1.

I enjoyed it, sure, but I eventually started realizing all the problems with this game, in my opinion.

Spoiler:
Bringing Phoenix back and resetting him to his Trilogy self. He basically acts nothing like he did in AJ. Where did that cool headed, sarcastic and cynical smug went? I didn't see him at all in DD.

Not only that, but the character flanderization of Trucy and Apollo. Trucy joked maybe once or twice about magic panties after 4-2 was done. And what does she do in DD? Never shut up about them. Same thing with Apollo. He says "I'm fine" basically at the beginning of the game and nowhere else. In DD? He's FINE! FINE! If you didn't get it already, he's FINE and his CHORDS OF STEEL ARE FINE! Because he's Apollo Justice and he's fine!

Of course, the new assistant and her new gimmick had to be showcased, and this led Trucy to become a useless cameo in the game. So was Klavier, Pearl and Edgeworth. They contributed nothing to the story other than being fanservice. And they had no development at all. Pearl was just there basically as plot device to tell us what the black locks were. Why didn't Phoenix ask a year ago what they were when he saw them on Kristoph instead of waiting until Athena got them?

So, the story. It simply threw AJ's story out of the window and pretending it never happened. What about the Gramaryes? What about Trucy and Apollo? What about Thalassa? What about Ema? What happened to the jurist system? Nope. Nobody cares. Dual Destinies is a new story of its own that addresses nothing of what AJ left unresolved. The whole story revolves around Athena and her tragic past, which is basically a rehash of 1-4 and 1-5, and wraps itself up, leaving no room for further development. That's it. Athena's story is done and resolved. She really has no reason to even be in AA6 at all. Apollo was just... there. Solving his trusting issues over his sudden best friend forever, from which we heard nothing before, suddenly being dead. And that's it. That's the whole role the protagonist of AA4 had in the game. Being emotional over his friend and nothing more. At least the story wasn't a total snoozefest like AAI was.

All the cases, barring the DLC, went from bad to average. 5-3 being one of the worst cases in the entire franchise.

5-1 starts okay, but drags on for too long, and is not as interesting as the trailers made it appear. 5-2 is just too convoluted and has a cast of crappy characters. 5-3 really is terrible. Going from the painfully obvious villain with a dumb motive (I killed my co-worker or else they'd find out I gave good grades for money) to the whole FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC ordeal going on with the trio. The first half of the court was basically pointless. Robin being a girl impacted 0% of the story and did nothing but drag further the case. Oh and if the game wasn't shoving Athena down your throat enough, now you play as her! Finally, Klavier graces us with a pointless fanservice cameo. 5-4 and 5-5, basically the same case, were just okay until the ending with the Phantom had to ruin everything. Such an uninteresting and last minute villain. Did all he did because of his identity and nothing else. The typical crappy villain for the sake of being evil. And then in the end he's taken down by a little friendship speech by everyone. Just an awful ending for an awful story.

And the cutscenes? Horrible anime-ish crap besides the case introduction ones. One thing is making a game with an anime artstyle and another is to add all that shonen anime crap in AA. "Wow Apollo standing on a destroyed courtroom and staring at the moon!" "Athena crying in the middle of the courtroom!" "I will defend you, Junie! Because you're my friend!" Just awful. It might be good for certain people but for others it was just generic anime cringey stuff.

Gameplay complain? Just what everyone has said already. Removing free examinations, the game auto jumping to your next location almost every time and playing itself, and the overall handholdiness and easiness of it.


Overall, I think DD was such a mediocre experience and I don't have much faith in AA6 after this. I'd rather the series to end than going through another DD fiasco.

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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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DeiStar wrote:
I find Dual Destinies to be the worst Ace Attorney game after Investigations 1.

I enjoyed it, sure, but I eventually started realizing all the problems with this game, in my opinion.

Spoiler:
Bringing Phoenix back and resetting him to his Trilogy self. He basically acts nothing like he did in AJ. Where did that cool headed, sarcastic and cynical smug went? I didn't see him at all in DD.

Not only that, but the character flanderization of Trucy and Apollo. Trucy joked maybe once or twice about magic panties after 4-2 was done. And what does she do in DD? Never shut up about them. Same thing with Apollo. He says "I'm fine" basically at the beginning of the game and nowhere else. In DD? He's FINE! FINE! If you didn't get it already, he's FINE and his CHORDS OF STEEL ARE FINE! Because he's Apollo Justice and he's fine!

Of course, the new assistant and her new gimmick had to be showcased, and this led Trucy to become a useless cameo in the game. So was Klavier, Pearl and Edgeworth. They contributed nothing to the story other than being fanservice. And they had no development at all. Pearl was just there basically as plot device to tell us what the black locks were. Why didn't Phoenix ask a year ago what they were when he saw them on Kristoph instead of waiting until Athena got them?

So, the story. It simply threw AJ's story out of the window and pretending it never happened. What about the Gramaryes? What about Trucy and Apollo? What about Thalassa? What about Ema? What happened to the jurist system? Nope. Nobody cares. Dual Destinies is a new story of its own that addresses nothing of what AJ left unresolved. The whole story revolves around Athena and her tragic past, which is basically a rehash of 1-4 and 1-5, and wraps itself up, leaving no room for further development. That's it. Athena's story is done and resolved. She really has no reason to even be in AA6 at all. Apollo was just... there. Solving his trusting issues over his sudden best friend forever, from which we heard nothing before, suddenly being dead. And that's it. That's the whole role the protagonist of AA4 had in the game. Being emotional over his friend and nothing more. At least the story wasn't a total snoozefest like AAI was.

All the cases, barring the DLC, went from bad to average. 5-3 being one of the worst cases in the entire franchise.

5-1 starts okay, but drags on for too long, and is not as interesting as the trailers made it appear. 5-2 is just too convoluted and has a cast of crappy characters. 5-3 really is terrible. Going from the painfully obvious villain with a dumb motive (I killed my co-worker or else they'd find out I gave good grades for money) to the whole FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC ordeal going on with the trio. The first half of the court was basically pointless. Robin being a girl impacted 0% of the story and did nothing but drag further the case. Oh and if the game wasn't shoving Athena down your throat enough, now you play as her! Finally, Klavier graces us with a pointless fanservice cameo. 5-4 and 5-5, basically the same case, were just okay until the ending with the Phantom had to ruin everything. Such an uninteresting and last minute villain. Did all he did because of his identity and nothing else. The typical crappy villain for the sake of being evil. And then in the end he's taken down by a little friendship speech by everyone. Just an awful ending for an awful story.

And the cutscenes? Horrible anime-ish crap besides the case introduction ones. One thing is making a game with an anime artstyle and another is to add all that shonen anime crap in AA. "Wow Apollo standing on a destroyed courtroom and staring at the moon!" "Athena crying in the middle of the courtroom!" "I will defend you, Junie! Because you're my friend!" Just awful. It might be good for certain people but for others it was just generic anime cringey stuff.

Gameplay complain? Just what everyone has said already. Removing free examinations, the game auto jumping to your next location almost every time and playing itself, and the overall handholdiness and easiness of it.


Overall, I think DD was such a mediocre experience and I don't have much faith in AA6 after this. I'd rather the series to end than going through another DD fiasco.


I agree about basically... everything. Nice game, but too much problems and general annoyance to overlook. Special mention to the cringeworthy cutscenes and that final speech... ugh.

As for Apollo, I thought he became way too much a buttmonkey in this game, and that he got shoved away - even literally at one point - byt Athena, and he had a pretty bad attitude at times. Surely in AJ his snarkyness sometimes bordered to rude, but in DD he was so... grumpy.
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Apollo says 'I'm fine' a lot in AJ too. They just didn't make a big deal of it like in DD.
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It was more of a nervous tic plus part of his speech training in AJ. In DD it's suddenly got a sob story behind it and is somehow magical.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Revisiting it, and; mixed emotions right here.

Spoiler: Case 2 to 5
I'm almost finished with a rewatching a playthrough of cases 2 to 5. I started right after watching playthroughs of a few favourite cases from the other games, and at first I felt quite uncomfortable. The difference between the games; something definitely felt "off". Athena bothered me a lot in case 2 (I can't say I'm too fond of her, but she has her moments) and Apollo... I enjoyed many of his lines (like the one where he talks about a spear and tongues and eyes, going all morbid and seemingly being in his own little bubble), but often he was just... plain rude. It was like they had to take his personality traits and stretch them out, he felt flanderized (I really liked it when he went all Kristoph Gavin, though, even though I think it's a shame he immediately apologized profusely since he had reasons to suspect Athena - and it felt disrespectful to Clay's memory just to toss the jacket away). I'm not sure if he keeps being that rude later on or if I just got used to it... Even so, I wished he had more focus in this game - out of Phoenix, Athena and him he is my favourite after all. And Phoenix have played his part, as much as I like him... his personality change, though. What even?

Some cases were definitely fun, I enjoyed them, and many minor characters stuck, such as Tenma, Jinxie, Scuttlebutt and Robin. But what I liked most of all when it came to the cases was the courtroom shenanigans, much more than the actual investigations and such. I have to admit, 95% of the reason I started watching it again was because of Simon Blackquill - he's one of my absolute favourites in the entire series, I missed him a lot, and... It's pretty much what makes the game for me; he makes me very emotional in every way as well as being funny as hell. The parts that really affected me all had to do with him. I also missed Fulbright (or, well, Fauxbright, but still), another character I greatly enjoy, and I do have to admit that I really appreciated the return of Edgeworth.

What I couldn't stand was the cutscenes - I just felt embarrassed watching them - as well as the ending of the last trial. Emotions! Oh no! Who am I!? It was embarrassing. And even if there are many unrealistic aspects in every AA-game, the Phantom was... just too much in my opinion. I can buy magatamas, I can buy spirit channeling, but I don't buy a human being being able to imitate anyone and everyone and all those masks and... no. I also think they tried to hard in this game - it seemed like they went so far to make it all grand and epic... It was a bit too much. I really don't want a sequel.

I can understand why many people love the game, but for me... I do like it, I love parts of it, but the flaws... the flaws. So; very, very mixed emotions. My first time with this game was... I was more positive even though I got annoyed lots of times, but I found it smoother, I didn't get uncomfortable in the beginning - that is, it didn't feel that off. I'm pretty sure it's because I hadn't been playing or watching the trilogy or AJ recently back then, so the differences didn't get to me as much.

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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Minus a few beats, I played this through twice and I'm fully convinced I will never go back to it again.

I tried booting up my save point in the middle of case 3 on my 3DS the other day. and it just dawned on me: The vibe... it's the vibe, man!

Of all the things I can point out that are objective faults with the story or the writing and for all my personality analysis of Takumi vs Yamazaki... there's just one major thing to describe it without all the fluff and it's "vibe".

I realized that I simply don't like the game when I'm playing it.

The fact that I the dialogue I was seeing as the first thing was Athena going "Writer's mouthpiece expository" about "how x and y and z" could happen, that probably had something to do with my feelings of dislike.

In context this was probably the fourth time in the case you'd heard them go over those facts. I thought, "If this was a Takumi game, the characters would've actually said things normal people would say". It's like a Christopher Nolan movie... the spectacle and all that is great, the scope is big and so are the ideas but the characters are just not well written and at the end of the day the entire plot falls apart because of it.
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Quote:
I realized that I simply don't like the game when I'm playing it.


Yet you played the whole thing twice, in a genre with questionable replay value :ron:
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It's a natural process. Since he didn't like it the first time, he gave it some time before he replayed it. But the second time through wasn't enough to give him any better experiences with the game. There's also a lot of lost potential with the limited range to examine things.

Turnabout Quiz sort of makes up for it, but the plot of that minigame couldn't be more boring. At least the character interactions are enjoyable. Thank goodness, since these puzzles are just more of the bore-fest. It's probably why the Special Episodes of PLvsPW are better, comparing DLC.

And this is exactly why I can expect greater things for GK3 or GS6. They've definitely learned from this trial.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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DeiStar wrote:
I find Dual Destinies to be the worst Ace Attorney game after Investigations 1.

I enjoyed it, sure, but I eventually started realizing all the problems with this game, in my opinion.

Spoiler:
Bringing Phoenix back and resetting him to his Trilogy self. He basically acts nothing like he did in AJ. Where did that cool headed, sarcastic and cynical smug went? I didn't see him at all in DD.

Not only that, but the character flanderization of Trucy and Apollo. Trucy joked maybe once or twice about magic panties after 4-2 was done. And what does she do in DD? Never shut up about them. Same thing with Apollo. He says "I'm fine" basically at the beginning of the game and nowhere else. In DD? He's FINE! FINE! If you didn't get it already, he's FINE and his CHORDS OF STEEL ARE FINE! Because he's Apollo Justice and he's fine!

Of course, the new assistant and her new gimmick had to be showcased, and this led Trucy to become a useless cameo in the game. So was Klavier, Pearl and Edgeworth. They contributed nothing to the story other than being fanservice. And they had no development at all. Pearl was just there basically as plot device to tell us what the black locks were. Why didn't Phoenix ask a year ago what they were when he saw them on Kristoph instead of waiting until Athena got them?

So, the story. It simply threw AJ's story out of the window and pretending it never happened. What about the Gramaryes? What about Trucy and Apollo? What about Thalassa? What about Ema? What happened to the jurist system? Nope. Nobody cares. Dual Destinies is a new story of its own that addresses nothing of what AJ left unresolved. The whole story revolves around Athena and her tragic past, which is basically a rehash of 1-4 and 1-5, and wraps itself up, leaving no room for further development. That's it. Athena's story is done and resolved. She really has no reason to even be in AA6 at all. Apollo was just... there. Solving his trusting issues over his sudden best friend forever, from which we heard nothing before, suddenly being dead. And that's it. That's the whole role the protagonist of AA4 had in the game. Being emotional over his friend and nothing more. At least the story wasn't a total snoozefest like AAI was.

All the cases, barring the DLC, went from bad to average. 5-3 being one of the worst cases in the entire franchise.

5-1 starts okay, but drags on for too long, and is not as interesting as the trailers made it appear. 5-2 is just too convoluted and has a cast of crappy characters. 5-3 really is terrible. Going from the painfully obvious villain with a dumb motive (I killed my co-worker or else they'd find out I gave good grades for money) to the whole FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC ordeal going on with the trio. The first half of the court was basically pointless. Robin being a girl impacted 0% of the story and did nothing but drag further the case. Oh and if the game wasn't shoving Athena down your throat enough, now you play as her! Finally, Klavier graces us with a pointless fanservice cameo. 5-4 and 5-5, basically the same case, were just okay until the ending with the Phantom had to ruin everything. Such an uninteresting and last minute villain. Did all he did because of his identity and nothing else. The typical crappy villain for the sake of being evil. And then in the end he's taken down by a little friendship speech by everyone. Just an awful ending for an awful story.

And the cutscenes? Horrible anime-ish crap besides the case introduction ones. One thing is making a game with an anime artstyle and another is to add all that shonen anime crap in AA. "Wow Apollo standing on a destroyed courtroom and staring at the moon!" "Athena crying in the middle of the courtroom!" "I will defend you, Junie! Because you're my friend!" Just awful. It might be good for certain people but for others it was just generic anime cringey stuff.

Gameplay complain? Just what everyone has said already. Removing free examinations, the game auto jumping to your next location almost every time and playing itself, and the overall handholdiness and easiness of it.


Overall, I think DD was such a mediocre experience and I don't have much faith in AA6 after this. I'd rather the series to end than going through another DD fiasco.


I agree about almost everything (I kind of like GK1).

One thing that made me mad is how Phoenix acts in court. In AJ they made him look very smart. He had everything under his control. And now? He acts like a morron. I was really disgusted by his "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" in 5-5. Just what the hell was that?! Even when Phoenix thought that it was all over in 2-4 he didn't act like that. But that's not the worst thing. What made me mad the most is Phoenix's continous bluffing. Almost every time when somebody (Judge, prosecutor, witness) asks him about something, he:

- smiles like an idiot or does "where did my beautiful contradiction go"
- says "of course I can prove it"
- has no idea what he's doing, no logic behind his words
- makes something up
- turns out to be truth
- ...

Shortly after I had finished DD, I played PW:AA - the first Ace Attorney game. And almost every time when Phoenix had to prove something, he would simply figure it out. He didn't bluff, he used his mind. Yes, sometimes he needed Mia's help. But this was mostly in critical situations, when expierence as a lawyer was needed or when Phoenix overlooked something:

Spoiler: AA
1-1 - Phoenix's first trial, it's normal for him to need help, and she didn't give him an answer, just told him to think outside the box
1-2 - He overlooked the receipt
1-3 - Persuaded Cody to talk.
1-4 - Just reminded Phoenix to think outside the box
1-5 - No Mia


Spoiler: JFA
2-1 - No Mia
2-2 - Told Wright that he overlooked something, made him keep fighting
2-3 - No Mia
2-4 - Mia told Phoenix to show one of Franziska's items to somebody else


Spoiler: T&T
3-1 - Mia's case
3-2 - Mia uses her expierence as a lawyer to point out new testimony
3-3 - No help inside the court, only with Kudo
3-4 - Mia's case
3-5 - No help from Mia, she just broke Dahlia down


As you can see, she just gave Phoenix (and us) hints, not answers. (Yet another annoying thing in DD - extremally low difficulty. Answers are given to us on a plate...)

Phoenix really seems dumber in Dual Destinies, and this should've never happened.
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TerryFawles wrote:
I was really disgusted by his "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" in 5-5. Just what the hell was that?!


Oh, uhhh! That certainly wasn't pretty. Was it that one that took up three boxes or so?

And; I agree with you here... The bluffing really takes over.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title

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TerryFawles wrote:
DeiStar wrote:
I find Dual Destinies to be the worst Ace Attorney game after Investigations 1.

I enjoyed it, sure, but I eventually started realizing all the problems with this game, in my opinion.

Spoiler:
Bringing Phoenix back and resetting him to his Trilogy self. He basically acts nothing like he did in AJ. Where did that cool headed, sarcastic and cynical smug went? I didn't see him at all in DD.

Not only that, but the character flanderization of Trucy and Apollo. Trucy joked maybe once or twice about magic panties after 4-2 was done. And what does she do in DD? Never shut up about them. Same thing with Apollo. He says "I'm fine" basically at the beginning of the game and nowhere else. In DD? He's FINE! FINE! If you didn't get it already, he's FINE and his CHORDS OF STEEL ARE FINE! Because he's Apollo Justice and he's fine!

Of course, the new assistant and her new gimmick had to be showcased, and this led Trucy to become a useless cameo in the game. So was Klavier, Pearl and Edgeworth. They contributed nothing to the story other than being fanservice. And they had no development at all. Pearl was just there basically as plot device to tell us what the black locks were. Why didn't Phoenix ask a year ago what they were when he saw them on Kristoph instead of waiting until Athena got them?

So, the story. It simply threw AJ's story out of the window and pretending it never happened. What about the Gramaryes? What about Trucy and Apollo? What about Thalassa? What about Ema? What happened to the jurist system? Nope. Nobody cares. Dual Destinies is a new story of its own that addresses nothing of what AJ left unresolved. The whole story revolves around Athena and her tragic past, which is basically a rehash of 1-4 and 1-5, and wraps itself up, leaving no room for further development. That's it. Athena's story is done and resolved. She really has no reason to even be in AA6 at all. Apollo was just... there. Solving his trusting issues over his sudden best friend forever, from which we heard nothing before, suddenly being dead. And that's it. That's the whole role the protagonist of AA4 had in the game. Being emotional over his friend and nothing more. At least the story wasn't a total snoozefest like AAI was.

All the cases, barring the DLC, went from bad to average. 5-3 being one of the worst cases in the entire franchise.

5-1 starts okay, but drags on for too long, and is not as interesting as the trailers made it appear. 5-2 is just too convoluted and has a cast of crappy characters. 5-3 really is terrible. Going from the painfully obvious villain with a dumb motive (I killed my co-worker or else they'd find out I gave good grades for money) to the whole FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC ordeal going on with the trio. The first half of the court was basically pointless. Robin being a girl impacted 0% of the story and did nothing but drag further the case. Oh and if the game wasn't shoving Athena down your throat enough, now you play as her! Finally, Klavier graces us with a pointless fanservice cameo. 5-4 and 5-5, basically the same case, were just okay until the ending with the Phantom had to ruin everything. Such an uninteresting and last minute villain. Did all he did because of his identity and nothing else. The typical crappy villain for the sake of being evil. And then in the end he's taken down by a little friendship speech by everyone. Just an awful ending for an awful story.

And the cutscenes? Horrible anime-ish crap besides the case introduction ones. One thing is making a game with an anime artstyle and another is to add all that shonen anime crap in AA. "Wow Apollo standing on a destroyed courtroom and staring at the moon!" "Athena crying in the middle of the courtroom!" "I will defend you, Junie! Because you're my friend!" Just awful. It might be good for certain people but for others it was just generic anime cringey stuff.

Gameplay complain? Just what everyone has said already. Removing free examinations, the game auto jumping to your next location almost every time and playing itself, and the overall handholdiness and easiness of it.


Overall, I think DD was such a mediocre experience and I don't have much faith in AA6 after this. I'd rather the series to end than going through another DD fiasco.


I enjoyed DD, but reading through your post makes me agree with what a lot of what you said. Phoenix wasnt smart or very clever, Apollo going "I'm FINE!" all the time was annoying, various twists didnt really impact on the story and I didnt feel the script was as sharp as previous AA games either.
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Regarding the Phantom...

Spoiler: 5-5
What if he wasn't using mask after mask after mask, but rather pulling off his own skin and growing a new face underneath? It would explain why he can't remember what his old face looked like. It's been too long since he grew that one back.

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TheDoctor wrote:
Regarding the Phantom...

Spoiler: 5-5
What if he wasn't using mask after mask after mask, but rather pulling off his own skin and growing a new face underneath? It would explain why he can't remember what his old face looked like. It's been too long since he grew that one back.


What... did I just read.
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TheDoctor wrote:
Regarding the Phantom...

Spoiler: 5-5
What if he wasn't using mask after mask after mask, but rather pulling off his own skin and growing a new face underneath? It would explain why he can't remember what his old face looked like. It's been too long since he grew that one back.


Spoiler:
Well, it does look like his eyes are just there... Nothing behind or around them - just a void...

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The difficulty is dumbed down, and yet they still put in a "Consult" option, which is poorly implemented because you need to fail before you can use it. You should be able to ask the assistant for advice whenever you want, rather than mindlessly present evidence because you have no clue, or in the case of this game, get fed the answers.

I've had to use the Consult in Turnabout Reclaimed. After messing up on the witness testimony 2 or 3 times, it was apparent that I had no idea what I was doing. Yet I had to fail before I go the extra help.

Another thing: The time between hearing the witness testimony and actually cross examining the witness is ridiculously long. Once the initial testimony is over, the characters start discussing the testimony as though you've already pressed two or three statements. Plus, pressing can get ridiculously long, to the point where I forgot I was still in the cross examination.

I love this game but I can't ignore its faults.
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There's yet another thing that makes no sense in Dual Destinies.

It's "the dark age of the law". Think about it - it's ridiculous and the only purpose of it is to make the game more dramatic. Let's rethink the whole idea of it. According to 5-5, it all started with Phoenix "faking evidence" and Blackquill's conviction. It was also said that "in those dark times" Attorneys make false accusations and fabricate evidence. That makes it.

Lets go!

Phoenix faking evidence? You mean the legendary attorney covering the truth? Yes, it's reasonable for people to lose trust after something like that... But wait... Haven't we already seen this? Does early :edgeworth: ring any bells? Or maybe :franny: from before? OR MAYBE :karma: - I MEAN, WASN'T HE ENOUGH FOR SOCIETY TO LOSE FAITH IN COURTS?

And Blackquill declared guilty of murder? Yes, that was a big shock for the public... But wait... Why does it bring a sense of deja vu? Oh, I know why! Is it :godot: ? Or maybe Portman? OR :karma: - COLD BLOODED KILLER, KILLING AN INNOCENT PERSON IN FRONT OF HIS SON AND MAKING ANOTHER, MENTALLY BROKEN MAN KILL SOMEBODY, TOO?

But not so fast! There are false accusations and fabricated evidence, too! Yes that's the thi... Wait. Messing with evidence? Weeell, we have :lana: and :edgeworth: and :franny: and :godot: AND :karma: ...
False accusations? Been there, done that: :edgeworth: :franny: :godot: :karma: and even :payne: .

Conclusion? "The dark age of the law" is bullshit.

Last edited by TerryFawles on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oh, gosh, yes. You're absolutely right. We've seen it before, the only difference is that it has a cringeworthy name now. It really, really feels like the creators were all about making everything as grand and epic as possible - and then things just get completely ridiculous because of it. There's almost a complete lack of "show, don't tell" in this game.
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I'd say AAI2 had a much better "Dark Age of the Law" theme.
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TerryFawles wrote:
There's yet another thing that makes no sense in Dual Destinies.

It's "the dark age of the law". Think about it - it's ridiculous and the only purpose of it is to make the game more dramatic. Let's rethink the whole idea of it. According to 5-5, it all started with Phoenix "faking evidence" and Blackquill's conviction. It was also said that "in those dark times" Attorneys make false accusations and fabricate evidence. That makes it.

Lets go!

Phoenix faking evidence? You mean the legendary attorney covering the truth? Yes, it's reasonable for people to lose trust after something like that... But wait... Haven't we already seen this? Does early :edgeworth: ring any bells? Or maybe :franny: from before? OR MAYBE :karma: - I MEAN, WASN'T HE ENOUGH FOR SOCIETY TO LOSE FAITH IN COURTS?

And Blackquill declared guilty of murder? Yes, that was a big shock for the public... But wait... Why does it bring a sense of deja vu? Oh, I know why! Is it :godot: ? Or maybe Portman? OR :karma: - COLD BLOODED KILLER, KILLING AN INNOCENT PERSON IN FRONT OF HIS SON AND MAKING ANOTHER, MENTALLY BROKEN MAN KILL SOMEBODY, TOO?

But not so fast! There are false accusations and fabricated evidence, too! Yes that's the thi... Wait. Messing with evidence? Weeell, we have :lana: and :edgeworth: and :franny: and :godot: AND :karma: ...
False accusations? Been there, done that: :edgeworth: :franny: :godot: :karma: and even :payne: .

Conclusion? "The dark age of the law" is bullshit.

Yeah, it's been brought up before. Though, I do like the theory that exposing people like Von Karma, Kristoph, etc actually contributed to the DOTL because it caused more distrust in the system

At least they tried? A blown up courtroom, a Prosecutor who's a criminal, the Mood Matrix, etc. I mean, they kind of had to pick up the plot thread that was left hanging in AJ. It definitely could've been done better, though
Pierre wrote:
I'd say AAI2 had a much better "Dark Age of the Law" theme.

Agreed
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TerryFawles wrote:
There's yet another thing that makes no sense in Dual Destinies.

It's "the dark age of the law". Think about it - it's ridiculous and the only purpose of it is to make the game more dramatic. Let's rethink the whole idea of it. According to 5-5, it all started with Phoenix "faking evidence" and Blackquill's conviction. It was also said that "in those dark times" Attorneys make false accusations and fabricate evidence. That makes it.

You forgot to mention how the dark age of law is solved by proving that the true criminals were another attorney and a police detective

JesusMonroe wrote:
I mean, they kind of had to pick up the plot thread that was left hanging in AJ.

...Seriously man?

Considering they completely ditched the Gramarye and Jurist System plotlines, I don't see why they "had" to pick up a plot thread based on a single line in the epilogue.
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Bad Player wrote:
...Seriously man?

Considering they completely ditched the Gramarye and Jurist System plotlines, I don't see why they "had" to pick up a plot thread based on a single line in the epilogue.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that

I think the issue is that the Jurist system could very easily have been explained away if the writers needed to ("people just didn't trust the system enough to become involved in it" or something) but they just chose to completely ignore it. Though, I'm not sure what exactly was left hanging from the Gramarye plotline besides Lamiroir, and I'm not entirely sure that's even abandoned at this point

----------------

Anyway, I feel like DD didn't really continue the main story of Ace Attorney in any meaningful way. Sure, it helped out Apollo but it ultimately felt like a game made to introduce Athena. I feel like the writers didn't try anything new or risky and we just got more of the same
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The Dark Age of the Law could have possibly been a lot better if it was somehow caused by the jurist system going horribly wrong. Don't know how it would have worked out, but still, it could have been interesting.

Also, does that mean the next game will be about the Renaissance of the Law?
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Well, the dark age of the law could be explained in one way or another.
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, the dark age of the law could [url=http://askaceattorney.tumblr.com/post/115473663747/dear-
bobsquob-they-set-things-up-for-the-fall]be explained in one way or another[/url].


According to this, "the dark age of the law" started with Phoenix being framed for forgery and Blackquill's guilty verdict only made it worse. I have two reasons why it has little sense.

AJ and DD spoilers!

1. Remember when Wright prove his innocence? It was in 4-4. This trial was different from the others in two aspects. First one was the Jurist System and the other one was MASON system. And if you think about 4-4, you will realise that theory presented in that link is highly unlikely. Remember that Lamiroir was only one of the jurists and there were six of them. That means that five of them were probably some random society members. And at the ending of Vera's trial we got to choose a deciding verdict. That means that three jurists had already choosen a "not guilty" verdict. That alone doesn't mean much. But there's also a MASON system. And whose past do we see in there? Wright's, of course. He was the one that prepared the footage used in MASON, and he could fake it - Jurists knew it all, but three of them (and Lamiroir) trusted him. They trusted a man that was found using false evidence in court. It would've been impossible to happen if courts (esp. Wright) hit bottom in people's eyes by then.

2. If the main reason for "the dark age of the law" was Phoenix's forgery and Blackquill as a murderer was a secondary cause, shouldn't it has disappeared or at least lessen after Phoenix was cleared out of suspiction and got his badge back? Because it hasn't, it seemed much worse in DD than in AJ.

I keep my claim that "the dark age of the law" is bullshit.

Oh, and if Blackquill is a main reason for TDAOTL, then again - we've already seen that ( :godot: and :karma: or :gant: and :lana: )

Bad Player wrote:
You forgot to mention how the dark age of law is solved by proving that the true criminals were another attorney and a police detective


Haha, that's right :karma:
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Though, I'm not sure what exactly was left hanging from the Gramarye plotline besides Lamiroir, and I'm not entirely sure that's even abandoned at this point

Lamiroir, Polly+Trucy, and Polly's dad is also a blank slate.

Polly's past is also almost as much of a blank slate as it was at the end of AJ. We know a certain person was his friend, yes, but they didn't explain who raised him, why he became an attorney, etc.

"Abandoned" is a weird word, because we have no idea what they will or won't address in future games. All we can say is that DD didn't even acknowledge the plot threads' existence, which... wasn't really a good thing. (heck it barely acknowledged trucy as a character)
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Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Though, I'm not sure what exactly was left hanging from the Gramarye plotline besides Lamiroir, and I'm not entirely sure that's even abandoned at this point

Lamiroir, Polly+Trucy, and Polly's dad is also a blank slate.

Brushel told Phoenix that Apollo's dad died, just to address this point
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As for Apollo, I don't think his lack of background story is a problem. I mean, we hardly know anything about Phoenix either except that he went to school with Edgeworth and Larry and was an art student at the age of 20. And why Apollo became a lawyer, maybe he simply thought it seemed like a nice job.
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TerryFawles wrote:
1. Remember when Wright prove his innocence? It was in 4-4. This trial was different from the others in two aspects. First one was the Jurist System and the other one was MASON system. And if you think about 4-4, you will realise that theory presented in that link is highly unlikely. Remember that Lamiroir was only one of the jurists and there were six of them. That means that five of them were probably some random society members. And at the ending of Vera's trial we got to choose a deciding verdict. That means that three jurists had already choosen a "not guilty" verdict. That alone doesn't mean much. But there's also a MASON system. And whose past do we see in there? Wright's, of course. He was the one that prepared the footage used in MASON, and he could fake it - Jurists knew it all, but three of them (and Lamiroir) trusted him. They trusted a man that was found using false evidence in court. It would've been impossible to happen if courts (esp. Wright) hit bottom in people's eyes by then.

2. If the main reason for "the dark age of the law" was Phoenix's forgery and Blackquill as a murderer was a secondary cause, shouldn't it has disappeared or at least lessen after Phoenix was cleared out of suspiction and got his badge back? Because it hasn't, it seemed much worse in DD than in AJ.

We didn't see it an AJ, but the dark age of the law was canonically present in AJ - Apollo was just lucky enough not to have too much of a contact with it. :kristoph: And actually... to be honest, I really believe that at least several members of the jury were handpicked by Phoenix and that the contents of the Mason System were shown without court's knowledge...

That being said, I like your point. It made me realize why there's a reason that two of the Jurists would vote guilty at all, because earlier I really couldn't come up with any - now it could be that they simply didn't trust Phoenix's 'presentation'. I also like to think that other jurists were doubtful of Phoenix, but they still remembered what happened inside the court - Vera being poisoned and in critical condition, Kristoph breaking down... They kinda did recognize it as Phoenix Wright's planned revenge, but considered Vera to be a victim of the schemes of these two men - so they voted for her to be acquitted.
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Though, I'm not sure what exactly was left hanging from the Gramarye plotline besides Lamiroir, and I'm not entirely sure that's even abandoned at this point

Lamiroir, Polly+Trucy, and Polly's dad is also a blank slate.

Brushel told Phoenix that Apollo's dad died, just to address this point

Yeah, but we don't know anything else about him--he's a blank slate. They could've easily tied him into the overarching plot with a flashback case of some sort.

Going for Miles wrote:
As for Apollo, I don't think his lack of background story is a problem. I mean, we hardly know anything about Phoenix either except that he went to school with Edgeworth and Larry and was an art student at the age of 20. And why Apollo became a lawyer, maybe he simply thought it seemed like a nice job.

What we know about Phoenix is (1) what happened in his childhood, with the classroom trial, and (2) his experience with Dahlia and Mia in college. These were the two major events and reasons that Phoenix became a lawyer. So this is definitely a case of 'quality,' even if we don't have 'quantity'--we know the two most major events that lead to Phoenix becoming the character we know him as.

As compared to Polly, where... we have no idea why he became an attorney, or where his name came from, or anything like that. All we know is where his catchphrase came from, which was also kind of a flanderization of his character.
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Bad Player wrote:
What we know about Phoenix is (1) what happened in his childhood, with the classroom trial, and (2) his experience with Dahlia and Mia in college. These were the two major events and reasons that Phoenix became a lawyer. So this is definitely a case of 'quality,' even if we don't have 'quantity'--we know the two most major events that lead to Phoenix becoming the character we know him as.


Still, when it comes to strict background facts, we know at least as much if not more about Apollo, like his relation to Lamiroir and Trucy (althought he doesn't). Also, the things you mentioned had an impact on other characters as well as several of the cases, so these events drove the story forward instead of just fleshing Phoenix out. As for Apollo there's the Gramarye's and their story, which doesn't involve him directly but sparked off, well, him and Trucy, the case that got Phoenix disbarred, 4-4, 4-1, 4-3 (somewhat), and it also explains his bracelet and the power of it. (I've written and rewritten and I'm still not sure I'm making any sense but I tried)

Bad Player wrote:
As compared to Polly, where... we have no idea why he became an attorney, or where his name came from, or anything like that. All we know is where his catchphrase came from, which was also kind of a flanderization of his character.


Going for Miles wrote:
And why Apollo became a lawyer, maybe he simply thought it seemed like a nice job.


And these things wouldn't necessarily drive the plot, so I don't think there's really a need to know it other than to flesh him out. I mean, no harm in doing that, but I'm just as fine with not knowing. That catchphrase thing though, was quite stupid. I liked it better how it was used in AJ.
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I actually always thought the thing with Phoenix in college was just fanservice for him to be a defendant and kind of an unnecessary part of his character. 3-1 is actually one of my least favorite cases

I agree with GoingForMiles, though. Apollo doesn't need a tragic backstory or even a great, fleshed out backstory. He can just be a normal guy. Phoenix is actually hands-down my favorite protagonist in anything for this very reason (followed closely by Jack Burden and Junpei, who I like for a lot of the same reasons). Apollo is a normal guy but the things that we as a player see happen to him (like the murder of Clay Terran) develop him more. I think that's fine and works well for his character
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Bad Player wrote:
Yeah, but we don't know anything else about him--he's a blank slate. They could've easily tied him into the overarching plot with a flashback case of some sort.


They could have, but that doesn't necessarily make him a loose end. We actually know more about him that about most fathers in the series.
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Pierre wrote:
Quote:
I realized that I simply don't like the game when I'm playing it.


Yet you played the whole thing twice, in a genre with questionable replay value :ron:

Well, point taken, but the second time I was like "This time I'll give it another chance" since I was mildly unsatified the first time I beat it. After having spent a year of not playing it, I found that when I tried to play it again I was just constantly turned off so I've decided I'll probably just not play it again ever because I just don't like it after all.

Yet, I've found myself replaying the first one 3+ times and I do enjoy taking it bit for bit on the 3DS re-release as well because the writing is so good, especially in the first one IMHO. (Or the writing is as good as in T&T but with better localization)

Pierre wrote:
I'd say AAI2 had a much better "Dark Age of the Law" theme.

Partially agree... but ugh, the P.I.C. is the most contrived and predictable plot-device ever in Ace Attorney. I honestly think Yamazaki has no idea what "subtext" is though, because when he decides a theme he does not know how to show it without hammering it over our heads in the most litteral possible sense.

To its credit, whatever themes GK2 had, it portrayed them much better than anyhing in Dual Destinies but unfortunately I was still being told the meaning of everything directly or through 'mouthpiece writing' instead of discovering it for myself through clever and elegant subtext within the writing.
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I think you're overselling the original trilogy to be honest. I love these games with all my heart and the writing is good, but Takumi isn't James Joyce
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Bear in mind, Takumi also worked on Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright, and while I love the game, the story is whack.
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TheDoctor wrote:
Bear in mind, Takumi also worked on Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright, and while I love the game, the story is whack.

The story is also very much a Professor Layton story, not an Ace Attorney one
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For the record, DD's OST is a big inconsistent poopoo. You get some nice gems here and there, but god is the composition awful on some tracks.

EDIT: Just realized there is a seperate thread for DD music, but oh well. The rest of my thoughts on DD are "Meh", so yeah.
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After completing the trilogy on 3DS and jumping into DD, the amount of DD's flaws become incredibly clear. The game is incredibly slow paced and somewhat restrictive. Investigations take forever and you can only investigate explicit areas, which are never more than two per case. Presenting evidence outside of court has no effect unless you were prompted by the assistant.

In court, things are just as slow. What bugs me in particular are the amount of long winded statements that you have to endure before you can cross examine the witness. Said statements could have easily been the result of pressing, like in older games.

For example, in 1-4 and 2-2 you need to get info on the murder weapon by pressing Gumshoe. In Dual Destinies this all happens before the cross examination. Yes, the result is the same, but in the Gumshoe examples I'm the one who got the information, while in Dual Destinies the game does it for me. In general it feels like the game is just dragging me along for the ride.

I understand that the lower difficulty is to make the game more accessible, but why not implement a hint option, like Layton vs. Wright? The Consult feature doesn't work the way it should.

I'm not a fan of the darker aesthetic style, either.

Recurring characters receive no character development whatsoever, with the exception of Apollo and Phoenix (debatable).
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You make some good points. I felt the game was far too easy, and that annoyed me. Rather than me figuring things out, the game did it for me. The Consult feature holds your hand through the game.
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TerryFawles wrote:
What made me mad the most is Phoenix's continous bluffing.


So? That's exactly what Phoenix does though. In fact, to quote Kristoph Gavin, Phoenix is "A second rate attorney who relies on luck and bluffs!". Not only that, there are numerous occasions in the series when Phoenix uses bluffs and trickery to get his client a "Not Guilty" verdict.

grim_tales wrote:
The Consult feature holds your hand through the game.


The "Consult" feature is entirely optional, meaning that the game doesn't force you to use it. So if you don't like it, don't use it!
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