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So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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I don't think it's very good. It's a very Americanized script that overuses English colloquialisms way too much, to quote my post in the voices thread:

ashxu wrote:
Gaspen is fine. But otherwise the voices are really killing it, the heavy Americanization too. I'd much prefer a translation over a localization.

What I mean is try to keep the script as close as the original as possible but only changing it when necessary like if a joke doesn't work in English. Nine Tails Vale being founded by Japanese Immigrants, really? Why not just admit the game is based in Japan? This isn't the early 2000s where rice balls are called jelly donuts in English.


I'm also confused with Blackquill's character. He has no problems with intimidating people and using insults however he still uses respectful terms such as 'please' and even calls Apollo 'Justice-dono' which is a term used to address someone higher than you, specifically:
Wikipedia wrote:
Tono (殿 【との】?), pronounced dono (どの?) when attached to a name, roughly means "lord" or "master". It does not equate noble status; rather it is a term akin to "milord" or French "monseigneur", and lies in between san and sama in level of respect. This title is not commonly used in daily conversation, but it is still used in some types of written business correspondence, as well as on certificates and awards, and in written correspondence in tea ceremonies. It is/was also used to indicate that the person referred to has the same (high) rank as the referrer, yet commands respect from the speaker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_h ... ono.2Ftono

Overall I think it's unsatisfactory and doesn't feel like a professional script, even if you disregard the typos.

So, thoughts on the script?
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The -dono is just keeping with the samurai/ronin persona for Blackquill. The politeness is also probably to depict the stereotypical speech pattern of samurai, which just does not exist in English.

As for localization, I'd agree that normally translation is better, but Ace Attorney is a very different beast. Many of the puzzles involved require basic cultural knowledge to solve. I haven't seen much where it's relevant here yet (knowing Japanese monsters might help in Case 2, but only barely), but you might remember in the second game...
Spoiler:
where it became important to know that the passenger door in on the right not the left
localization is very much required.

As for the pop culture reference, it's just trying to preserve some of the humour that just doesn't translate going cross-culture. I mean, in the Japanese version, the brothers' first names are just the reverse of their kanji writing; Gaspen is a good name to keep the family naming practice alive and well. So to keep the little jokes active, they throw in the odd pop-culture reference. They did it in Apollo Justice, and people still liked it. (Well enough, at least.)
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Well as I said, jokes, references andlocalization that are necessary are fine. I don't recall Samurai ever having a stereotypical manner of being polite though, in fact, look up "Tsujigiri". -dono is just completely out of character and doesn't make sense at all. They could of just left it out all together.
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Note: I have only played the Japanese version of GS5, so I am not familiar with the whole body of text of any given character in the English version, just bits and pieces.

As someone who wrote a thesis on the translation, and localisation of role language (speech patterns that evoke a stereotype) based on GS, I have to say that I am a bit confused by Blackquill, as opposed to his Japanese counterpart Yugami. Yugami is quite rude throughout the game; I understand that his nicknames for Fulbright and the judge aren't that polite either. In that sense, dono makes no sense at all, sociolinguistically speaking. It's a fairly polite way to speak to someone. Let's just ignore the stereotypical image of a samurai for the moment (as, 'the stereotypical' samurai can be both polite and rude; higher ranked warriors in fiction tend to talk a bit more polite), but just at Blackquill / Yugami. Yugami has a consistent speech pattern (going from 'fake polite~slightly rude' to 'quite rude'); which is needed because a large part of his image, as a fictional character, is created through his text. So it is strange that Yugami would have a very inconsistent speech pattern, swaying from very rude, to very polite.

In fact, if they really wanted to go with this samurai image for Blackquill (who is actually more dressed like someone in the Meiji period, and thus not a samurai... To me, his function and image seems much closer to a Danjoudai...), the dono should be reserved for that one character that appears in the last chapter of which I am not sure whether he is considered spoiler-material or not (he calls him danna in the JP version, by the way).

But in general, I think localisation is a method that works very good for GS, because it relies so much on role language to create its characters. And because role language = stereotypes = culture specific, it makes sense to me to go for recognizable speech patterns, rather than straight translation.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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I kinda think Blackquill just uses 'dono' in a sarcastic way rather than trying to be polite. I just finished case 4 and when Blackquill was being so nice to the Capt, Athena noted how his sarcasm just went straight over the Captain's head. I think it's his kind of humour to use niceties when really he doesn't have much respect for anyone. That was my take on it anyway.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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Ash wrote:
Note: I have only played the Japanese version of GS5, so I am not familiar with the whole body of text of any given character in the English version, just bits and pieces.

As someone who wrote a thesis on the translation, and localisation of role language (speech patterns that evoke a stereotype) based on GS, I have to say that I am a bit confused by Blackquill, as opposed to his Japanese counterpart Yugami. Yugami is quite rude throughout the game; I understand that his nicknames for Fulbright and the judge aren't that polite either. In that sense, dono makes no sense at all, sociolinguistically speaking. It's a fairly polite way to speak to someone. Let's just ignore the stereotypical image of a samurai for the moment (as, 'the stereotypical' samurai can be both polite and rude; higher ranked warriors in fiction tend to talk a bit more polite), but just at Blackquill / Yugami. Yugami has a consistent speech pattern (going from 'fake polite~slightly rude' to 'quite rude'); which is needed because a large part of his image, as a fictional character, is created through his text. So it is strange that Yugami would have a very inconsistent speech pattern, swaying from very rude, to very polite.

In fact, if they really wanted to go with this samurai image for Blackquill (who is actually more dressed like someone in the Meiji period, and thus not a samurai... To me, his function and image seems much closer to a Danjoudai...), the dono should be reserved for that one character that appears in the last chapter of which I am not sure whether he is considered spoiler-material or not (he calls him danna in the JP version, by the way).

But in general, I think localisation is a method that works very good for GS, because it relies so much on role language to create its characters. And because role language = stereotypes = culture specific, it makes sense to me to go for recognizable speech patterns, rather than straight translation.

Interesting, however by overhauling the script you also get disgruntled hardcore fans who would may prefer something more true to the original material. I guess it's a preference thing but irregardless I'm disappointed with what route Capcom decided on.
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I still haven't played it yet, so I don't know first hand how the localization is, but I think it's an interesting situation since it's the 5th game in the series. The games have always been localized a certain way, and because of that the localized versions of the games have their own unique feel from the originals. If I remember correctly, the characters in the localized versions sometimes have subtle character/personality differences with their Japanese counterparts. So while going for a less localized translation might be met with approval by some fans, others (including myself) would much prefer the localization give us the characters that we've come to know; not that there's anything wrong with the original versions, but playing a more literal translation that took place in Japan and wasn't Americanized would probably be similar to someone playing the Japanese version of Gyakuten Saiban 1 and then playing the localized version of Justice for All.

It makes sense from that perspective to, for instance, say that Nine Tails Vale was founded by Japanese immigrants. Previous games have shown that the game both takes place in America, but also is in a city that has a good amount of Japanese culture spread through it. If they suddenly switched the game to taking place in Japan, then there would suddenly be this huge continuity issue of how the entire city Phoenix and Co. lived in suddenly moved continents. Then I'd wonder why they all had English names, etc. Another example is Maya and her favorite food: In the Japanese version, Maya's favorite food was ramen; they changed it to burgers in the localized version. If Maya makes a return in GS6, and they suddenly directly translated it so her favorite food is Ramen in the localized version, it would be a little strange (I mean she could have just switched favorite foods over the years but it wouldn't have the same nostalgic factor as saying she loved burgers would). At this point, there's too much lore unique to the localized version for them to do a fairly direct localization without dropping some elements fans enjoy. So in this case I consider continuity to be more important than faithfulness in the localization.

I guess what I'm saying is that if this was the first GS game localized here, I'd want it to be a more direct translation. Heck, I probably wouldn't even want them to change the names or anything. But since it's the 5th game it really wouldn't make sense to suddenly place it in Japan and start to translate everything more faithfully.

Regarding Blackquill, I don't know much about him or anything but I do know that they claimed that the localized version of Blackquill is not a rude, loud guy but a relaxed and confident guy with a Victorian-era vibe. I don't remember the specifics of why they changed it.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
I still haven't played it yet, so I don't know first hand how the localization is, but I think it's an interesting situation since it's the 5th game in the series. The games have always been localized a certain way, and because of that the localized versions of the games have their own unique feel from the originals. If I remember correctly, the characters in the localized versions sometimes have subtle character/personality differences with their Japanese counterparts. So while going for a less localized translation might be met with approval by some fans, others (including myself) would much prefer the localization give us the characters that we've come to know; not that there's anything wrong with the original versions, but playing a more literal translation that took place in Japan and wasn't Americanized would probably be similar to someone playing the Japanese version of Gyakuten Saiban 1 and then playing the localized version of Justice for All.

It makes sense from that perspective to, for instance, say that Nine Tails Vale was founded by Japanese immigrants. Previous games have shown that the game both takes place in America, but also is in a city that has a good amount of Japanese culture spread through it. If they suddenly switched the game to taking place in Japan, then there would suddenly be this huge continuity issue of how the entire city Phoenix and Co. lived in suddenly moved continents. Then I'd wonder why they all had English names, etc. Another example is Maya and her favorite food: In the Japanese version, Maya's favorite food was ramen; they changed it to burgers in the localized version. If Maya makes a return in GS6, and they suddenly directly translated it so her favorite food is Ramen in the localized version, it would be a little strange (I mean she could have just switched favorite foods over the years but it wouldn't have the same nostalgic factor as saying she loved burgers would). At this point, there's too much lore unique to the localized version for them to do a fairly direct localization without dropping some elements fans enjoy. So in this case I consider continuity to be more important than faithfulness in the localization.

I guess what I'm saying is that if this was the first GS game localized here, I'd want it to be a more direct translation. Heck, I probably wouldn't even want them to change the names or anything. But since it's the 5th game it really wouldn't make sense to suddenly place it in Japan and start to translate everything more faithfully.

Regarding Blackquill, I don't know much about him or anything but I do know that they claimed that the localized version of Blackquill is not a rude, loud guy but a relaxed and confident guy with a Victorian-era vibe. I don't remember the specifics of why they changed it.

Interesting opinion. Yes I can see where you're coming from and you're right, however I think the Japan/America ambiguity is less obvious in the previous games. I guess the quality of the script itself factors a lot into my criticism as the manner of speech being used contributes to my view of it being too "Americanized".

Although another suggestion could be that they avoid implying nationalities altogether and pretend the game takes place on some alternate Earth.
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ashxu wrote:
Gaspen is fine. But otherwise the voices are really killing it, the heavy Americanization too. I'd much prefer a translation over a localization.

What I mean is try to keep the script as close as the original as possible but only changing it when necessary like if a joke doesn't work in English. Nine Tails Vale being founded by Japanese Immigrants, really? Why not just admit the game is based in Japan? This isn't the early 2000s where rice balls are called jelly donuts in English.

This change has to do with Capcom not retconning the existing AA-lore. If it was really set in Japan then the "move" options for the case wouldn't make sense.

Consider that PW:AA was so americanized to begin with (and a reason I initially got so into this) that AA5 should be no different.

However the localization still bugs me since it occasionally feels very rushed. As in AAI WAY too many lines start with "It would appear that" and too many of the bulky characters keep saying "And I, [insert name] shall do it my way" and stuff like that. It makes the script very repetitive and occasionally monotonous but since this was a major issue with AAI I consider this flaw to be attributed to the actual writer. The kind of lines I pointed out just seem robotic to me, especially if the Judge says them, which he does alot! :udgy:

Now then, it would seem that is all which I had to say. (convoluted sentence intended)
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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Well if we're going with minor details like that, one could argue that Lana Skye is actually a transgender because in the second case of AA1 they refer to the chief prosecutor at the time as a male (Yes I know it was an error and not intentional but for arguments sake). I don't really think it's that big of a problem due to them only dropping the fact that the English version is based in America a few times at best, not to mention it's not very uncommon for games to have very minor detail changes during localization.
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Well it isn't a minor detail since consider that if 5-2 took place in japan the move-option from Nine-Tails-Vale to Wright Anything Agency and the Detention Center would mean you have to travel between America and Japan at least 3 times in the course of 1 day while still spending several hours in each place, and changing the location of the agency or the Detention center would be considered a direct retcon.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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I've only seen bits and pieces of Simon's English dialogue, but I wonder if you could chalk the use of "dono" up to him being a gigantic weeaboo? If he doesn't have any Japanese heritage in the localized version, you could say he's taking all his "typical samurai" talk from movies and anime. He might not even really know what -dono means. Which is possibly a disservice to his character, but might justify the translation choice.

To be honest, I'm not sure how I would translate his choice of address, either. Could he have called Apollo "Mr. J"? Or even just "J"?
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I'm glad someone pointed out that the Japanese immigrants thing was necessary because it would retcon the series otherwise.

Though like many here I don't quite get Simon's localisation...he uses a lot of old English Upper Class phrases like "Balderdash" "Poppycock" and even "Dandy" at a few points. He's also got a Falcon which has further implications of....Upper Class English Country Nobles (well at least for me) out on the estates with their falcons. I might be stretching it a bit now but his name "Simon Blackquill" also has hints of upper class rich English in it as Blackquill makes me think of a ye olde medieval pot of ink with an old fashioned Quill pen (which he very much has in his mouth).

But then he just has all these Japanese hints thrown in as well and...I just don't get why he's such a peculiar mix of both cultures.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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Well most of Blackquill's japanese traits lie within his animations themselves and his "-dono" talk is, as Apollo points it out in case 2, more of an imitation of "samurai flicks" than him having actual knowledge/heritage of japanese culture. Some of his lines or jokes in case 2 felt like gibberish to me though because of all the japanese names and whatnot.

It does FEEL like it's a big mix of both victorian-era english as well as samurai-talk but like Lang I feel like Blacky is just incredibly "japanese" in design (note, I'm not much of a weaboo, so I know basically nothing about Japanese culture) and no matter how they would've localized it you'd still find things strange with his localized characterization.

Now Imagine if they'd made him a fully-fledged knight instead, you'd go "Uhh, but isn't he posing like a samurai?" or "Uhh but isn't he throwing shurikens/knifes"?
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I just took Blackquill's English/Japanese mix to mean he was raised in England, and took an interest in Japanese culture around the time that he started working with Metis. She was obviously very influential to him, and they make a point of talking about how Metis was really into Japanese culture.
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Ash wrote:
But in general, I think localisation is a method that works very good for GS, because it relies so much on role language to create its characters. And because role language = stereotypes = culture specific, it makes sense to me to go for recognizable speech patterns, rather than straight translation.

QFT. The Americanization isn't that heavy, given that the team have been pretty lenient with tossing in Japanese terms left and right. If the game was simply translated rather than localized, everyone would be talking like this:

linkenski wrote:
As in AAI WAY too many lines start with "It would appear that" and too many of the bulky characters keep saying "And I, [insert name] shall do it my way" and stuff like that. It makes the script very repetitive and occasionally monotonous but since this was a major issue with AAI I consider this flaw to be attributed to the actual writer. The kind of lines I pointed out just seem robotic to me, especially if the Judge says them, which he does alot! :udgy:


Although the English does exaggerate some lines, it's normal for Japanese to sound repetitive, since it's a language that prefers not to go directly to declaratory statements, as it's deemed rude or informal otherwise. I sure don't want my Japanifornians to talk in awkward English, but the way it's been presented already is within the boundaries of proper suspension of disbelief.

As for Blackquill calling his opponents with "-dono", let's pretend he's a rabid fan of samurai movies, as Apollo has suggested.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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ashxu wrote:
Nine Tails Vale being founded by Japanese Immigrants, really?


I'm pretty sure that both Kurain Village and Hazakura Temple were both founded by Japanese immigrants as well, so how come those two are fine, but Nine Tales Vale isn't?

linkenski wrote:
However the localization still bugs me since it occasionally feels very rushed. As in AAI WAY too many lines start with "It would appear that" and too many of the bulky characters keep saying "And I, [insert name] shall do it my way" and stuff like that. It makes the script very repetitive and occasionally monotonous but since this was a major issue with AAI I consider this flaw to be attributed to the actual writer. The kind of lines I pointed out just seem robotic to me, especially if the Judge says them, which he does alot! :udgy:


He's a judge, therefore I'd expect him to speak in a formal manner such as that (Edgeworth and Franziska, too).
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But the dialogue didn't seem to get repetitive in the old games did it? Every time the Judge starts a sentence with "Now then," or "It would appear" I want to smash my 3DS because I've seen those lines too many times. (It did this from case 4 and onwards in AAI too... way too much)

But enough about me ranting actually. I wanna know if any of you Japanese-y players noticed any kind of noticable writing difference between Yamazaki and Takeshi and if maybe these "It would appear" lines are a result of that or the result of the localization team leaving some lines more roughly translated than the rest. Do you think so or am I making a big fuzz over nothing?
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Making a big fuzz over nothing I haven't passed onto case 4 yet, but if it's really that repetitive, there's no particular reason for it to be. Actually, throughout the first two cases, I can see some signs of unnecessary stalling in the script. There's naturally a lot of recurring phrases, especially just before presenting evidence to questions, but it's been like that since the first game, so no point complaining there.

Linkenski, it's not because of the differences between styles of the Japanese writers. Looking at the original scripts of multiple games, I don't see how they'd have problems with repetition. As I played through the original versions, I felt the wording in them very smooth and natural. The issue comes in when the localization team doesn't adjust for the natural repetition of Japanese.

But, I wouldn't blame the localization team either. It's one thing to toss in random references and jokes; it's another to fill in space for lines that must last for a certain period of time, to keep up with the timing of the animations. It gets tough when something once translated doesn't fit into two lines well, or if roughly translated, it takes up too little of the box. (Granted, the latter result wouldn't be much of a problem, but it could still mess with timing and stuff.)

In fact, I find that some typos in the game - those that involve missing words - aren't always done so by mistake. It could have been intentional in certain cases.

Edit: I've gone back and played the games simultaneously for direct comparison. Most of the time, the Japanese speeds to the end of one line before the English can catch up. It's a difference of about a second on average.

Ah, that's beside the point. The English is almost always squished to the end of the text box, despite the condensed font; unlike the Japanese, which almost never reaches the bottom right. There are only a few moments when the missing word actually matters with the length of the line, though.

Another thing I notice is how the animations are timed. There are a lot more ellipses in the Japanese script, and the characters have been made to match the lines perfectly. Occasionally, I'd still catch the ol' mouth-moving-while-not-speaking happening, but it's a bit less frequent in the localization, where the characters do have words to speak.

Also, why IS the English script so much wordier than the Japanese? It's not always because the English script has added parts to lines.

Let's see what else I can pick up on with my degrading vision. >:D
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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Script is fine. Only issue is all the typos.
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The script is not bad at all, no but now that Rubia pointed it out, I'm pretty sure it could've been more concise. I feel like there's so much more text than usual in Dual Destinies but it could also be because it's a tad slower than usual.

The fact that it almost always fills out the two lines is also a factor. It didn't do that so much in the previous games... except from AAI.
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I've noticed it suffers from dot abuse?
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Me too and I had crossed my fingers it didn't before release, since this was also a common annoyance in AAI. Seriously, the text speed is too slow in this game and in case 5 every second sentence starts with friggin 12 dots. I still haven't figured if this is the localization team's fault or if the writers just use puntuation differently than Takumi did. Sometimes in AJAA there was also like 6 dots or so, and then the sentence would start but they ALWAYS seperated the awkward silence by seperating the lines.

............But maybe someone likes it...
...I don't really know.........?

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...Then again, doesn't Simon Blackquill's character seem a little silly in the localization when you realize he's a British-Victorian-Samurai who lives in LA and refers to people as -dono?
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Yes I admit that, and I was actually expecting his words to be more "offensive" if you will, considering mostly everyone who played the japanese version called him a "jerk".
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The only problem I had with the translation were the puns of the characters Rex Kyubi and Damien Tenma in Japanese got kind of lost to the English. Should have named them Rex Fox and Damien Demon, would have been funnier and more in line, considering in Japanese they were literally Silver Nine-Tailed Fox and Deemon Demon. But other than that I thought the translation was fine.
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linkenski wrote:
Yes I admit that, and I was actually expecting his words to be more "offensive" if you will, considering mostly everyone who played the japanese version called him a "jerk".


I sort of liked that about Prosecutor Weeaboo...that he could be both a jerk and a 'noble samurai', I mean.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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Yatta.

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Despite how wordy the English script can be, in certain cases, the animations can take place even faster. I notice this more clearly with long animations, like breakdowns. It's not like that for all of them, but some.

Also, I'd like to correct myself on text speed. It's not a second of delay; it's closer to two.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"

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It seems to me like they didn't really adjust the speed after the translation properly. I just went back and played Apollo Justice today, and the slowest text speed seems as fast as the "middle" speed in this game.
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Re: So about the localization...Topic%20Title
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Thane wrote:
linkenski wrote:
Yes I admit that, and I was actually expecting his words to be more "offensive" if you will, considering mostly everyone who played the japanese version called him a "jerk".


I sort of liked that about Prosecutor Weeaboo...that he could be both a jerk and a 'noble samurai', I mean.


Yeah. He's the sort of nerd who thinks everything British and everything Japanese is better than everything American, and squashes them all into his personality to sound cool. It makes him much more human, even when he's first introduced. I thought it was a fun localization choice, myself.
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