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Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:59 pm
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Hello everyone. This will contain spoilers for the entire game, more or less, so I would advise you not to continue if you have not finished it yet.

That said, let us begin.

Spoiler:
Isn't it weird that Athena never noticed Fulbright's lack of emotions at an earlier point in the game? It seems like she doesn't have to really focus to do that, so it just feels...odd.

Before you mention it; yes, I know the phantom was an expert at controlling his own emotions, so the possibility of him faking it throughout the game certainly exist. However, why would he suddenly stop controlling his emotions when he needed it the most, i.e when they started suspecting him?


Was this ever explained?
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:40 pm
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No, it was never explained, but I have a "theory" (this was made up on the fly, but at least it's a place to start - feel free to pick apart as needed).

Spoiler:
Ok, my theory:
  • The Phantom learns about the report on him stating he has no emotions. Kills Dr. Cykes for it, yadda yadda. I assume he knows about the content of the report, but is unable to acquire it (since Blackquill took it).
  • The Phantom, based on this report, proceeds to train himself so that he can't be identified this way. It takes time, but he learns to fake emotions in a semi-realistic way that reflects the persona he has taken on.
  • However, his technique isn't perfect. When under pressure and forced to "guess" how his persona would act, The Phantom stops faking emotions and instead focuses on creating a believable act (e.g. he might not have known how Fulbright would have acted if he was accused of murder)
  • When The Phantom's being interrogated by Athena, he slips up in this way. He focuses too much on giving testimony and doesn't remember to fake the appropriate emotion. Athena catches him, he realizes that he can't do that anymore, and then instead tries to hide his emotions rather than try to present realistic emotions (possibly because he doesn't know what the proper emotion would be).

However, this doesn't really answer the question about why Fulbright didn't focus on "emitting" realistic emotions during his testimony, which he knew he was giving to the daughter of Metis Cykes. He had also watched her technique over three court cases, so even if he didn't put two and two together he should have know about her special ability.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:04 pm
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There is no plot hole, it's pretty easily explained.

Spoiler: case 5
Remember when in the final case you have to analyze him with the mood matrix and he has seemingly complete control over his emotions? It's not that he has no emotion at all per say, so he could easily throw off Athena, especially since she never suspected him of anything. So he could have easily thrown her off anyway by his own devices.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:43 pm
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Yes, he is in full "control" of his emotions but when he's accused he sort of stresses out I guess and forgets to use his tools.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:51 pm
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For some reason, I felt like he was trolling them, but
Spoiler:
when he became cornered, the stress and fear took over.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm
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I think this falls under the same issue of why doesn't Phoenix's Magatama/Apollo's bracelet work every time a suspect lies to them. Some gimmicks are totally dependant on convenience.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:56 am
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Croik wrote:
I think this falls under the same issue of why doesn't Phoenix's Magatama/Apollo's bracelet work every time a suspect lies to them. Some gimmicks are totally dependant on convenience.


Indeed, I think that is the only explanation that makes sense. I still find it weird, but I guess I'll just have to accept it as a necessity for the plot.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:42 pm
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Spoiler:
He was letting normal emotions show all throughout the game, until the point where he has to give testimony, then he suppresses them in order to hide his fear of the moon rock. That's when Athena notices a lack of emotions in his speech.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:42 pm
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One can argue with Phoenix's and Apollo's "powers" that it has to be a significant lie for it to trigger a reaction. Apollo's is easier to explain away because petty lies, or ones that aren't significant to the teller, don't have enough emotional impact to involuntarily cause a tell. I've always been under the impression that with Psyche-Locks, it's significant lies that conjure psyche-locks, ones that require incredible emotional and conscious effort to tell, regardless of how petty the lie actually is (HERE'S LOOKING AT YOU, OLDBAG)

Spoiler: Case 5
Now, for Fulbright, I think that it can be simply explained that Athena didn't notice because she wasn't listening. When she was young she was constantly hearing the emotions in everyone's voices and had no control, thus Metis had to create her special headphones. However, present day Athena, appears to have some control over her ability to hear emotions, and she also seems to only be listening for discord when she is. She has no reason to listen to Fulbright because he's not a suspicious character, and anytime she might, his obnoxious personality is distracting enough that she probably wouldn't have caught anything.

Not to mention the fact that he can exercise some control over his emotions, but I think the above explanation is probably the best suited.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:32 pm
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Well how about this? Athena can only sense 'discord' in someone's heart with her ears (or so is shown). It is the Mood Matrix which provides the in-depth analysis. I'm actually so confused as to whether we could just rip Widget off her neck and it'd work just as fine but that's beside the point.

Point is, if there is no emotions in the first place there can be no 'discord' so she wouldn't catch on.

Spoiler: 5-5
Hell they only finger Fulbright as the culprit due to him knowing where the ladder would be out of pure evidence rather than a lack of emotion in the first place. Then once Widget is active she can actively examine his emotions. However because there was never any discord she never had any reason to suspect him anyway.


Here's another potential plot hole I found:

Spoiler: 5-5
If Fulbright is unafraid of death...to the point that he can perform death-defying leaps without batting an eyelid. Why would he show fear at his cover being blown with the reason being....he could be killed for it? Why would he breakdown at all?
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:51 pm
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Spoiler: Case 5
He's not afraid of accidental death, by a mistimed jump or the like. Because he has such great control of his own emotion, and to a degree, his survival instinct, he is able to maintain complete control and focus of the situation. To him, he had everything under his command, so there was no REAL fear of dying, since of course he would make it. When you throw in his compromised identity, it's something he's never faced before--there's a very real chance he will die. Even him, with his control of his emotions, cannot quelsh the most primal of his fears. When Wright and Co. crack that dam, he is overwhelmed by the emotions he's tried to control for so long, and they obliterate him, thus a breakdown.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:03 pm
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Percei wrote:
Spoiler: Case 5
He's not afraid of accidental death, by a mistimed jump or the like. Because he has such great control of his own emotion, and to a degree, his survival instinct, he is able to maintain complete control and focus of the situation. To him, he had everything under his command, so there was no REAL fear of dying, since of course he would make it. When you throw in his compromised identity, it's something he's never faced before--there's a very real chance he will die. Even him, with his control of his emotions, cannot quelsh the most primal of his fears. When Wright and Co. crack that dam, he is overwhelmed by the emotions he's tried to control for so long, and they obliterate him, thus a breakdown.


Spoiler: Case 5
I'm not sure I quite buy it, he wasn't 'not afraid' because he knew he would be entirely competent at the jump. It's not like he makes 50 feet jumps every other day. Otherwise that would be the evidence they use to indicate it but the way they explain about that is he is inherently emotionally resistant. Hmm I guess that's the question, is he emotionally dead or just controlling them? I got the feeling he was more emotionally dead, but had enough control he could just emulate them at will. Like he's set to neutral all the time and only chooses what emotions to display.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:25 pm
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Pierre wrote:
Percei wrote:
Spoiler: Case 5
He's not afraid of accidental death, by a mistimed jump or the like. Because he has such great control of his own emotion, and to a degree, his survival instinct, he is able to maintain complete control and focus of the situation. To him, he had everything under his command, so there was no REAL fear of dying, since of course he would make it. When you throw in his compromised identity, it's something he's never faced before--there's a very real chance he will die. Even him, with his control of his emotions, cannot quelsh the most primal of his fears. When Wright and Co. crack that dam, he is overwhelmed by the emotions he's tried to control for so long, and they obliterate him, thus a breakdown.


Spoiler: Case 5
I'm not sure I quite buy it, he wasn't 'not afraid' because he knew he would be entirely competent at the jump. It's not like he makes 50 feet jumps every other day. Otherwise that would be the evidence they use to indicate it but the way they explain about that is he is inherently emotionally resistant. Hmm I guess that's the question, is he emotionally dead or just controlling them? I got the feeling he was more emotionally dead, but had enough control he could just emulate them at will. Like he's set to neutral all the time and only chooses what emotions to display.


Spoiler: Case 5
I don't think he's emotionally dead, per se, I think he's definitely a sociopath, that much I think is established, but I think he's exercised such great control and dominance over his own emotions that he's suppresed them to the point of nonexistence, except when he needs them. It's all about control, he's crushed his fear to where he doesn't need to feel it, because with no fear comes no hesitation, and hesitation would be the only thing that would kill them. But with his identity compromised, things are suddenly not in control, and that's a situation he's not prepared himself to handle. Suddenly death becomes a very real possibility, whereas when making the jump, he saw it as very unlikely because he was in control of all the variables.

And let's not forget it wasn't an overwhelming fear at all. In the last Mood Matrix he was forcing his emotions to run wild to confuse Athena, showing he isn't emotionless, but so separated from his own emotional state that he can exercise complete control over them, or so he thought. It was only a little, tiny inkling of fear that crept through. Something so primal and instinctual that even he couldn't wrestle it down, because deep, deep down, he had no control over his potential death, and that frightened him.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:28 am
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Spoiler: Case 5
Besides, didn't he have a grappling hook anyway? Who's to say he didn't use it, or had it in the back of his mind as a "safety net"?
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:38 am
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ThePaSch wrote:
Spoiler: Case 5
Besides, didn't he have a grappling hook anyway? Who's to say he didn't use it, or had it in the back of his mind as a "safety net"?


Spoiler: 5-5
Oh snap! You're right! They never explicitly mention his grappling hook/whip watch gadget but he definitely could have used that to ensure the jump was safer. Well that clears that right up.
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:24 am
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It's probably difficult to judge exactly how Athena uses her talents. My best guess? I think she has to voluntarily focus on someone in order to get their emotional state - something she does often in court when she sees a few hint signs that someone's in distress.

But Fulbright is just a plain old detective giving details about the cases; earlier on, she didn't even suspect him whatsoever. So, so to speak, it's like walking through a forest and taking a long time to realize there aren't any trees...
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Re: Potential plot holeTopic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:56 am
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They mentioned in case 5 that
Spoiler:
Athena's sense of hearing isn't as sensitive as it used to be, so I thought that she had eventually learned to selectively tune out the day to day stuff, unless the person was in court or experiencing extreme emotions or doing something uncharacteristic. I had also wondered why she never noticed Fulbright's lack of emotions, but I suspect it's because she wasn't looking for them and just tuned them out, and as previously pointed out, Fulbright could selectively control them, so she could possibly tune that out as well.

That's how I interpreted it.
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