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Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and AJAA)Topic%20Title
Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:22 pm
Guest

Now, I'm not entirely sure if I'm right (well, obviously, since it's speculation)... however...

Things we know about
Spoiler: 5-5 villain
The Phantom
:

Spoiler:
1) Was stabbed by Athena in his right hand
2) Responsible for bringing in the Dark Age of Law which started with the discrediting of both Phoenix Wright and Blackquill
3) True identity is hidden from even him, therefore probably hidden with black psyche-locks...
4) Has no problem whatsoever involving children in his schemes, what with even murdering Athena's own mother right before her eyes as an 11 year old


My theory is:

Spoiler:
The Phantom was Kristoph Gavin from AJ:AA.

However... the Kristoph Gavin we see in AJ:AA was himself a fake. Not the real Kristoph who is the brother of Klavier, but an imposter. Under the guise of Kristoph Gavin, discredited PW by phony evidence. Under another guise also discredited Blackquill during his trial to make him look responsible for the murder of Metis Cykes.

The third act in his plan, was then discrediting Kristoph Gavin himself 7 years after Phoenix's fall. The public still had a small amount of trust left in the court system (as established through how willing to co-operate a lot of people in AJ:AA actually were, not to mention the Dark Age of Law was never really mentioned during that, it only happened *after* AJ:AA... so under the guise of Kristoph, set up an elaborate scheme to get himself caught a second time (4-4) to finally get the public to fully distrust them.

Where did the original Kristoph Gavin go? He easily could've been killed and disposed of by The Phantom.


Evidence?

Spoiler:
1) AJ Kristoph Gavin has an unexplained scar on his right hand.
2) AJ Kristoph Gavin is hiding something from even himself through black psyche locks, which could be The Phantom's original identity.
3) The timing of the full force of The Dark Age of Law happening after AJ:AA, in Dual Destinies.
4) Kristoph also has absolutely no qualms about using children in his schemes, even going as far as to try to poison a 12 year old girl


I know someone will mention that it's impossible because
Spoiler:
Kristoph was sent to prison, meaning how on earth could he be active outside of prison? Surely somebody would notice if Kristoph escaped?


Well...
Spoiler:
what if certain parts of "the system" (most noticeably the prison department) did notice, and were blackmailed to maintain the official statement that KG was still in jail. Or, what if Kristoph was never killed and was a hostage of The Phantom for 7 years, and when sent to prison, after the events of AJ:AA, switched places with the real Kristoph Gavin? So as far as the legal system is concerned, the culprit of both 4-1 and 4-4 is behind bars.


I know it's absolutely absurd, but I don't think it's impossible. The
Spoiler:
scar on the right hand
evidence really does make me think this could be the case.

Last edited by Warmijwilf on Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:43 pm
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I think it's plausible but not very likely.

Spoiler:
I think if the similarities between Phantom and Kristoph's situations were intentional, they would've addressed that causing the dark age of the law was something that the Phantom actually INTENDED to do. The way it's presented in DD, the Phantom only cared about his mission to sabotage the country's space program and protecting his identity. The fact that Simon was convicted of the crime, causing distrust in the legal system, was entirely coincidental.

Not to say that sowing distrust in a nation's legal system isn't something that a spy would potentially work towards, but if the Phantom really was Kristoph, I think the narrative would've pushed the angle that the Phantom did that on purpose instead of on accident.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:43 pm
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I dunno, I think that's too far-fetched even for Ace Attorney.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:54 pm
Guest

JardW wrote:
I think it's plausible but not very likely.

Spoiler:
I think if the similarities between Phantom and Kristoph's situations were intentional, they would've addressed that causing the dark age of the law was something that the Phantom actually INTENDED to do. The way it's presented in DD, the Phantom only cared about his mission to sabotage the country's space program and protecting his identity. The fact that Simon was convicted of the crime, causing distrust in the legal system, was entirely coincidental.

Not to say that sowing distrust in a nation's legal system isn't something that a spy would potentially work towards, but if the Phantom really was Kristoph, I think the narrative would've pushed the angle that the Phantom did that on purpose instead of on accident.

Spoiler:
He intended to sabotage the space program, but why pin Metis's murder on Blackquill of all people, and then his second crime against Athena? Admittedly he originally planned for Clay's murder to be pinned on Starbuck, but I think he knew that the truth it wasn't him would come out... either way, both of the people who the blame was pinned on happened to be 2 very prominent (at their respective times) people in the legal system, I doubt it was coincidence.

And then there's also Juniper in 5-1, who was aspiring to become a Judge also... I dunno, I think a lot of his scapegoats being tied into the legal system is more than mere coincidence. Again, there's nothing concrete, but still... seems fishy.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:55 pm
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It strikes me as possible, but very unlikely.

Spoiler: AJ: AA and PW: AA: DD
For starters, Kristoph would have to be able to successfully keep a large number of people quiet in order to avoid getting caught. It's doable, but extremely risky. My main reason for not being convinced, though, is that the theory assumes Kristoph planned on discrediting the courts from the start, but such a plan relies on some things that were beyond his control happening the way he wanted them to.

To start, unless he wanted his forgery exposed from the start, Kristoph planned on being Zak's defense attorney and getting away with the forgery--hence why he didn't reveal it to Klavier until after Phoenix had been hired. He couldn't have known beforehand that Zak would fire him over a game of poker. In addition, Metis's killer could not have predicted that Simon Blackquill would take the fall for the murder. Finally, he couldn't have predicted that he would be exposed as the murderer of Shadi Smith (a. k. a. Zak) and Drew Misham. These all hinged on the actions of people he had no control over.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:02 pm
Guest

General Luigi wrote:
It strikes me as possible, but very unlikely.

Spoiler: AJ: AA and PW: AA: DD
For starters, Kristoph would have to be able to successfully keep a large number of people quiet in order to avoid getting caught. It's doable, but extremely risky. My main reason for not being convinced, though, is that the theory assumes Kristoph planned on discrediting the courts from the start, but such a plan relies on some things that were beyond his control happening the way he wanted them to.

To start, unless he wanted his forgery exposed from the start, Kristoph planned on being Zak's defense attorney and getting away with the forgery--hence why he didn't reveal it to Klavier until after Phoenix had been hired. He couldn't have known beforehand that Zak would fire him over a game of poker. In addition, Metis's killer could not have predicted that Simon Blackquill would take the fall for the murder. Finally, he couldn't have predicted that he would be exposed as the murderer of Shadi Smith (a. k. a. Zak) and Drew Misham. These all hinged on the actions of people he had no control over.

Spoiler:
Kristoph was Apollo's mentor, he taught him all the tricks in the book. He moulded him into what he wanted him to be, and I'm sure he could predict how he'd act. Apollo performed remarkably well during that trial, and even gave Apollo the evidence that led Apollo to suspect him in the first place (Why would the murderer suddenly talk about the card deck color out of nowhere like that? Kristoph was surely intelligent enough to know that would be picked up on, especially by his protégé.

I've always maintained that Kristoph actually acted very clumsily in 4-1 and 4-4, even though he appeared to have carefully planned everything out. A lot of his actions and trail of evidence was a bit too easy for me. But of course, that's no proof. There is no proof, this is after all just a theory, and I still think the scar thing is very suspicious... especially considering, at all times, Fulbright wore gloves. Even when he was posing as different people after ripping off all his masks, he wore gloves. I think that's because people would've spotted that he had exactly the same scar as Kristoph, and, assuming my theory is true (Which I admit, it probably isn't, just a bit of fun) if he and the real Kristoph had indeed switched places once he was sent down, then all would be exposed, and yet another scapegoat of his would have his name cleared (I assume under these circumstances the real Kristoph would have no scar, I mean why would he?). Apollo of all people would've noticed this, since he perceived Kristoph's hand and saw it extremely up close in the last trial, it's almost definitely stuck in his mind.

As for the Zak thing, he may have never actually planned to take on Zak's defense at all, and just acted as if he would: if anything, this would make Zak firing him just be beneficial so he didn't have to come up with an excuse why Phoenix had to take his place.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:12 pm
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Spoiler: Counterargument
Interesting theory (and I admit, you had me going for a bit because I love crazy theories), but since I recently saw a comedic recap of AJ, I believe I can debunk this.

Recall the grudge Kristoph had against Phoenix: Zak Gramereye chose Phoenix to represent him via a game of poker, because Kristoph was unable to bluff. Faking the inability to bluff would be an almost impossible feat, even for The Phantom, I think. Or better yet, especially for The Phantom, since he's nearly devoid of emotion most of the time in the first place, and Zak only said it was about how well either of them could bluff once the match was over.

Plus, like JardW says above, with the way AJ's narrative was written, it doesn't seem like starting the Dark Age of the Law was the overall goal.
"If witches worship demons, does that make Wright the devil's advocate?" - Just some caption on PLvsAA.

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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:18 pm
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Guest wrote:
JardW wrote:
I think it's plausible but not very likely.

Spoiler:
I think if the similarities between Phantom and Kristoph's situations were intentional, they would've addressed that causing the dark age of the law was something that the Phantom actually INTENDED to do. The way it's presented in DD, the Phantom only cared about his mission to sabotage the country's space program and protecting his identity. The fact that Simon was convicted of the crime, causing distrust in the legal system, was entirely coincidental.

Not to say that sowing distrust in a nation's legal system isn't something that a spy would potentially work towards, but if the Phantom really was Kristoph, I think the narrative would've pushed the angle that the Phantom did that on purpose instead of on accident.

Spoiler:
He intended to sabotage the space program, but why pin Metis's murder on Blackquill of all people, and then his second crime against Athena? Admittedly he originally planned for Clay's murder to be pinned on Starbuck, but I think he knew that the truth it wasn't him would come out... either way, both of the people who the blame was pinned on happened to be 2 very prominent (at their respective times) people in the legal system, I doubt it was coincidence.

And then there's also Juniper in 5-1, who was aspiring to become a Judge also... I dunno, I think a lot of his scapegoats being tied into the legal system is more than mere coincidence. Again, there's nothing concrete, but still... seems fishy.


Spoiler:
But did he really pin the crime on Simon? All he did was kill Metis, attack Athena, and then panic and run away when she slashed his hand. The reason Simon was arrested had nothing to do with the Phantom's actions. Simon took it upon himself to protect Athena from suspicion and did a lot of really suspicious stuff to achieve that goal.

He only fabricated Athena's prints on the lighter when it became clear that Starbuck couldn't possible have been the killer. That's why he only came to present it when the not guilty verdict was about to be read. It had nothing to do with targeting Athena, he just wanted to be able to ensure suspicion would be cast on someone other than himself.

And with Juniper, he again had nothing to do with that. He stole the detonator from Tonate and used it to destroy the Hope capsule which contained evidence of his identity. He probably knew that suspicion would ultimately fall on Tonate in the end, and TONATE is the one who cast suspicion on Juniper, not Phantom. The Phantom was only cleaning up his own mess with no regard for what happened afterward.

You're giving him credit for a lot of accidents.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:25 pm
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Guest wrote:
Spoiler:
Kristoph was Apollo's mentor, he taught him all the tricks in the book. He moulded him into what he wanted him to be, and I'm sure he could predict how he'd act. Apollo performed remarkably well during that trial, and even gave Apollo the evidence that led Apollo to suspect him in the first place (Why would the murderer suddenly talk about the card deck color out of nowhere like that? Kristoph was surely intelligent enough to know that would be picked up on, especially by his protégé.

I've always maintained that Kristoph actually acted very clumsily in 4-1 and 4-4, even though he appeared to have carefully planned everything out. A lot of his actions and trail of evidence was a bit too easy for me. But of course, that's no proof. There is no proof, this is after all just a theory, and I still think the scar thing is very suspicious... especially considering, at all times, Fulbright wore gloves. Even when he was posing as different people after ripping off all his masks, he wore gloves. I think that's because people would've spotted that he had exactly the same scar as Kristoph, and, assuming my theory is true (Which I admit, it probably isn't, just a bit of fun) if he and the real Kristoph had indeed switched places once he was sent down, then all would be exposed, and yet another scapegoat of his would have his name cleared (I assume under these circumstances the real Kristoph would have no scar, I mean why would he?). Apollo of all people would've noticed this, since he perceived Kristoph's hand and saw it extremely up close in the last trial, it's almost definitely stuck in his mind.

As for the Zak thing, he may have never actually planned to take on Zak's defense at all, and just acted as if he would: if anything, this would make Zak firing him just be beneficial so he didn't have to come up with an excuse why Phoenix had to take his place.

That reminds me...
Spoiler: AJ: AA
Originally, Kristoph himself was going to be defending Phoenix, which would have essentially required him to implicate himself in front of the whole court rather than have someone else expose him if he planned on being exposed. It's possible that Kristoph would have personally opted out of defending Phoenix if Phoenix had not requested Apollo, but his presence during the trial implies that he had not planned on being replaced as Phoenix's defense attorney. Also, the fake ace that played a key role in implicating Kristoph in Zak's murder was prepared by Trucy at Phoenix's request.

Also, as JardW pointed out...
Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
What about Simon? How could Metis's killer have planned for Simon to take the blame for the murder?
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:35 pm
Guest

JardW wrote:
Spoiler:
But did he really pin the crime on Simon? All he did was kill Metis, attack Athena, and then panic and run away when she slashed his hand. The reason Simon was arrested had nothing to do with the Phantom's actions. Simon took it upon himself to protect Athena from suspicion and did a lot of really suspicious stuff to achieve that goal.

He only fabricated Athena's prints on the lighter when it became clear that Starbuck couldn't possible have been the killer. That's why he only came to present it when the not guilty verdict was about to be read. It had nothing to do with targeting Athena, he just wanted to be able to ensure suspicion would be cast on someone other than himself.

And with Juniper, he again had nothing to do with that. He stole the detonator from Tonate and used it to destroy the Hope capsule which contained evidence of his identity. He probably knew that suspicion would ultimately fall on Tonate in the end, and TONATE is the one who cast suspicion on Juniper, not Phantom. The Phantom was only cleaning up his own mess with no regard for what happened afterward.

You're giving him credit for a lot of accidents.


Well, I don't actually think my theory is true - it's just that a theory, I don't think that this is necessarily the case... still, it's fun to wonder, and that's why I'm going to respond and debate like it's a proper Ace Attorney trial! Time to bluff! :phoenix:
Spoiler:
You're probably right, but those are some shocking coincidences. Admittedly the Juniper one doesn't really count since Tonate seemed to know barely anything about The Phantom, but there was no real reason to choose Athena as the culprit. She was in the Space Station at the time, but so were hundreds of others.

As for the Blackquill thing, remember that the reason he went there in the first place was because he was worried about Metis's experiments on Athena, despite later claiming that Metis actually did love Athena and the experiments were nothing more than the headphones that Athena had to wear... so why was he so convinced something was going to happen to Athena in the first place, and go up there at all? What if The Phantom had manipulated Blackquill into believing Metis was, in fact, performing experiments on Athena under the guise of another Space Station employee? I don't see Blackquill dredging his deceased mentor's name through the mud, even if it were to protect Athena, he'd surely come up with something else. I guess it could've been mere coincidence, but it seems more like a pattern to me.


General Luigi wrote:
Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
What about Simon? How could Metis's killer have planned for Simon to take the blame for the murder?

See above.

General Luigi wrote:
Spoiler: AJ: AA
Originally, Kristoph himself was going to be defending Phoenix, which would have essentially required him to implicate himself in front of the whole court rather than have someone else expose him if he planned on being exposed. It's possible that Kristoph would have personally opted out of defending Phoenix if Phoenix had not requested Apollo, but his presence during the trial implies that he had not planned on being replaced as Phoenix's defense attorney. Also, the fake ace that played a key role in implicating Kristoph in Zak's murder was prepared by Trucy at Phoenix's request.


Spoiler:
He probably thought he'd be caught, the bloody ace just sped things up. Who knows how the trial would've gone if the bloody ace was never presented? We don't know that Kristoph would've got away with it otherwise.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineModerators Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:08 am
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Wow.

New headcanon.

Spoiler:
Clearly, Phantom escaped from prison as "Kristoph" to prevent getting executed, and, as he obviously couldn't continue to live as Kristoph, killed Fulbright and took over his identity.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:00 am
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Bad Player wrote:
Wow.

New headcanon.

Spoiler:
Clearly, Phantom escaped from prison as "Kristoph" to prevent getting executed, and, as he obviously couldn't continue to live as Kristoph, killed Fulbright and took over his identity.

Spoiler:
That does explain why he killed Fulbright one year ago too, and not any time before/slightly after then... Hmm


Last edited by Warmijwilf on Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:25 am
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Guest wrote:
Well, I don't actually think my theory is true - it's just that a theory, I don't think that this is necessarily the case... still, it's fun to wonder, and that's why I'm going to respond and debate like it's a proper Ace Attorney trial! Time to bluff! :phoenix:
Spoiler:
You're probably right, but those are some shocking coincidences. Admittedly the Juniper one doesn't really count since Tonate seemed to know barely anything about The Phantom, but there was no real reason to choose Athena as the culprit. She was in the Space Station at the time, but so were hundreds of others.

As for the Blackquill thing, remember that the reason he went there in the first place was because he was worried about Metis's experiments on Athena, despite later claiming that Metis actually did love Athena and the experiments were nothing more than the headphones that Athena had to wear... so why was he so convinced something was going to happen to Athena in the first place, and go up there at all? What if The Phantom had manipulated Blackquill into believing Metis was, in fact, performing experiments on Athena under the guise of another Space Station employee? I don't see Blackquill dredging his deceased mentor's name through the mud, even if it were to protect Athena, he'd surely come up with something else. I guess it could've been mere coincidence, but it seems more like a pattern to me.

Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Recall that he acknowledged Metis's love for Athena after his lies were exposed. That implies that he was never under the impression that Athena was being mistreated. Also, if the Phantom was planning on getting Simon implicated from the start, it would have made more sense for the Phantom to make sure Athena wasn't a witness to begin with. After all, we're talking about someone who can supposedly get an entire prison staff to keep quiet about a prisoner's escape, so it would be unlikely for the Phantom to not have some way of making sure Athena wasn't there when Metis died.


Guest wrote:
Spoiler:
He probably thought he'd be caught, the bloody ace just sped things up. Who knows how the trial would've gone if the bloody ace was never presented? We don't know that Kristoph would've got away with it otherwise.


Spoiler: AJ: AA
There's still the problem of Kristoph heading Phoenix's defense, as I pointed out. A defense attorney implicating himself in the crime his client has been accused of would tell the entire court that said defense attorney has some sort of vested interest in being convicted of murder. That would inevitably be investigated, which would in turn blow Kristoph's cover.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:35 am
Guest

General Luigi wrote:
Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Recall that he acknowledged Metis's love for Athena after his lies were exposed. That implies that he was never under the impression that Athena was being mistreated. Also, if the Phantom was planning on getting Simon implicated from the start, it would have made more sense for the Phantom to make sure Athena wasn't a witness to begin with. After all, we're talking about someone who can supposedly get an entire prison staff to keep quiet about a prisoner's escape, so it would be unlikely for the Phantom to not have some way of making sure Athena wasn't there when Metis died.

Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Then why go to rescue her? When he gave the testimony about wanting to kill Metis, and of Athena's abuse, he showed genuine emotion that tied in with the statements, implying he really genuinely was under the impression that Metis was using her in experiments. Now, who or what could've given him that idea, to convince him to go to the murder scene, where he'd be caught red-handed by the security camera...?

And yeah, I know, Blackquill is great at psychological manipulation, but that doesn't mean he's able to force himself to feel feelings he doesn't actually feel. The only one with the ability to do that is The Phantom.

Also, the prison staff blackmail idea isn't the only one - let's say he never killed Kristoph and just kept him hostage, with the help of an accomplice, once in jail he could've switched places with the real Kristoph (with the help of said accomplice, I don't know the actual method) and changed identities so he wouldn't get caught.


General Luigi wrote:
Spoiler: AJ: AA
There's still the problem of Kristoph heading Phoenix's defense, as I pointed out. A defense attorney implicating himself in the crime his client has been accused of would tell the entire court that said defense attorney has some sort of vested interest in being convicted of murder. That would inevitably be investigated, which would in turn blow Kristoph's cover.

Spoiler: AJ: AA
Well no, it only tells the entire court that if the court finds out Kristoph meant to implicate himself. Which, yeah, would blow his cover, but The Phantom as you know is an amazing actor - he can even act as somebody completely the opposite to himself, proven with Bobby Fulbright. He implicated himself, but in a way that the court would never detect, as if he really was taken down by Apollo.

Think of it as a triple bluff.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:33 am
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Warmijwilf wrote:
Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Then why go to rescue her? When he gave the testimony about wanting to kill Metis, and of Athena's abuse, he showed genuine emotion that tied in with the statements, implying he really genuinely was under the impression that Metis was using her in experiments. Now, who or what could've given him that idea, to convince him to go to the murder scene, where he'd be caught red-handed by the security camera...?

And yeah, I know, Blackquill is great at psychological manipulation, but that doesn't mean he's able to force himself to feel feelings he doesn't actually feel. The only one with the ability to do that is The Phantom.

Also, the prison staff blackmail idea isn't the only one - let's say he never killed Kristoph and just kept him hostage, with the help of an accomplice, once in jail he could've switched places with the real Kristoph (with the help of said accomplice, I don't know the actual method) and changed identities so he wouldn't get caught.

Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Ah, but we've already seen proof Simon can fake an emotion. Many of the emotions tied to his false confession fit the confession, even though said confession was a lie. He knew what really happened, yet he managed to mask many of his true feelings and create emotions that matched his false confession.


Warmijwilf wrote:
Spoiler: AJ: AA
Well no, it only tells the entire court that if the court finds out Kristoph meant to implicate himself. Which, yeah, would blow his cover, but The Phantom as you know is an amazing actor - he can even act as somebody completely the opposite to himself, proven with Bobby Fulbright. He implicated himself, but in a way that the court would never detect, as if he really was taken down by Apollo.

Think of it as a triple bluff.

Spoiler: AJ: AA, PW: AA
That's the problem, though. He was fully prepared to defend Phoenix himself, yet if he were to serve as Phoenix's defense, his cover would be blown if he revealed his own involvement in the murder. Making it look as though Apollo had exposed him would hinge on Apollo being Phoenix's defense attorney, which his presence implies was not something Kristoph had expected. It's possible his mention of Zak's baldness in his conversation with Phoenix was intended to tell Phoenix he was the killer, but the problem is that Kristoph would have been betting on Phoenix catching on right then and there, which is a ridiculous risk. He needed a way of guaranteeing Apollo would be Phoenix's defense attorney, and dropping a hint to Phoenix is no guarantee. As we saw in Turnabout Samurai, Phoenix doesn't always catch everything.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:43 am
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General Luigi wrote:
Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Ah, but we've already seen proof Simon can fake an emotion. Many of the emotions tied to his false confession fit the confession, even though said confession was a lie. He knew what really happened, yet he managed to mask many of his true feelings and create emotions that matched his false confession.

Spoiler:
That is true, but you've got to remember he's not perfect at it - the single thing that remained consistent during those mood matrix segments were him feeling angry towards Metis for what he thought she'd been doing, almost everything else fluctuated or was proven to be wrong.


General Luigi wrote:
Spoiler: AJ: AA, PW: AA
That's the problem, though. He was fully prepared to defend Phoenix himself, yet if he were to serve as Phoenix's defense, his cover would be blown if he revealed his own involvement in the murder. Making it look as though Apollo had exposed him would hinge on Apollo being Phoenix's defense attorney, which his presence implies was not something Kristoph had expected. It's possible his mention of Zak's baldness in his conversation with Phoenix was intended to tell Phoenix he was the killer, but the problem is that Kristoph would have been betting on Phoenix catching on right then and there, which is a ridiculous risk. He needed a way of guaranteeing Apollo would be Phoenix's defense attorney, and dropping a hint to Phoenix is no guarantee. As we saw in Turnabout Samurai, Phoenix doesn't always catch everything.

Spoiler: AJ: AA
Ah, but that's what I meant though - the idea I have was that Kristoph was going to slip up (on purpose) in court by revealing things subtly (for example the deck of cards, etc), for the prosecution, and of course Phoenix himself, to be able to piece things together and for Phoenix and Apollo (who he knew would at the very least be his assistant) to figure out what really happened, and expose him.

Apollo being the defense doesn't really make a difference, he was still able to slip up, and Apollo and Phoenix were still able to catch him. And he dropped several hints, the deck of cards for Apollo to catch onto, and the bald head for Phoenix.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:14 am
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General Luigi

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Guest wrote:
Spoiler:
That is true, but you've got to remember he's not perfect at it - the single thing that remained consistent during those mood matrix segments were him feeling angry towards Metis for what he thought she'd been doing, almost everything else fluctuated or was proven to be wrong.

Spoiler: PW: AA: DD
Ah, but what proof is there that the anger was not another false emotion? We've already seen that Simon could create false emotions to go with a false confession. Therefore, it is not a stretch to infer that the supposed anger toward Metis was just there to deceive Athena.

Guest wrote:
Spoiler: AJ: AA
Ah, but that's what I meant though - the idea I have was that Kristoph was going to slip up (on purpose) in court by revealing things subtly (for example the deck of cards, etc), for the prosecution, and of course Phoenix himself, to be able to piece things together and for Phoenix and Apollo (who he knew would at the very least be his assistant) to figure out what really happened, and expose him.

Apollo being the defense doesn't really make a difference, he was still able to slip up, and Apollo and Phoenix were still able to catch him. And he dropped several hints, the deck of cards for Apollo to catch onto, and the bald head for Phoenix.

Spoiler: AJ: AA
The problem is that it still hinges on people catching on, which isn't something Kristoph would have been able to guarantee.

Also, let's go back to the case that got Phoenix disbarred for a moment. Kristoph attempted to poison Drew and Vera, the reason being he wanted to conceal the forgery. What reason would Kristoph have had for poisoning them if he had planned on being exposed?
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I'll always love you, Max.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:45 am
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Sligneris

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Here is the problem: Kristoph, an attorney took a blow to his pride, when Phoenix was chosen as Shadi's defense attorney. A spy would not be affected by thos and would not have any real motive to do that
 
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineModerators Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:57 pm
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Bad Player

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Sligneris wrote:
Here is the problem: Kristoph, an attorney took a blow to his pride, when Phoenix was chosen as Shadi's defense attorney. A spy would not be affected by thos and would not have any real motive to do that

He has to properly keep his persona :P
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Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:13 pm
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Going for Miles

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Interesting theory. Even though I don't believe it myself, it's not unlikely. In any case: EWWWWW! Which is to say, that reaction is a good grade.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:34 pm
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WaitingforGodot

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GoingforMiles wrote:
Interesting theory. Even though I don't believe it myself, it's not unlikely. In any case: EWWWWW! Which is to say, that reaction is a good grade.


What they said. I have nothing to add.
Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:00 pm
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I'm genuinely impressed. I highly doubt it's true, but an interesting read nonetheless.

...I wouldn't mind it if the developers read this and implemented it in a future installment.
Spoiler:
The main complaint against Kristoph has always been his weak motive, so...
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:11 am
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Sligneris

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Heh heh heh. And here I thought my "Phantom is Matt Engarde" was crazy enough.
 
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:30 pm
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Interesting theory, but too convoluted for a real AA game.

I would read a fanfic based on it.
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:27 pm
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This is what happens when a series introduces shape shifters into the mix.

Spoiler:
I guess one problem I have with this is that you said his black psyche-locks are hiding the Phantom's true identity. However, the question Nick asked that triggered the locks was "Why did you kill Shadi Smith," so he wasn't hiding his identity, but his motive. If the Phantom killed Zak to discredit the deceased Kristoph (that's what I'm gathering from the theory, at least), then he would know fully well why he did it, because it had nothing to do with his forgotten identity. It just had to do with his ultimate goal of discrediting the legal system, which would have been a conscious lie and therefore red locks (since he's still working on the same goal later and clearly aware of it).
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Also, this: Pywright tutorial for beginners And this: Pokemon crossover case
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Re: Possible theory (Massive, massive spoilers for 5-5 and ATopic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:22 pm
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What if
Spoiler:
Kristoph wasn't Phantom, but the head of the organization that Phantom works in. He just worked in his cell the entire time and hired other workers such as Tonate.
The king of all, Sir Duke
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