I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:26 pm

NinjaMonkey

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Spoiler:

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:29 pm

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NinjaMonkey wrote:

Spoiler:

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:50 pm

TheBlarghMan

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I think the idea behind it is that...

Spoiler:

...but yes, I agree, the game did a really poor job of explaining on that point. Which is why we need that animated Ace Attorney series set inbetween Phoenix's disbarment and Apollo Justice to flesh things out more.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:55 pm

Blademaster_Orca

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I think it was explained in case 4. To summarize:

Spoiler:

I wouldn't say it was poorly explained exactly, but rather open to interpretation. Are the evil deeds of von Karma, Godot and the like included in that perception as well? It isn't touched upon, but we could easily assume so.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:25 pm

Jean Descole

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TheBlarghMan wrote:

I think the idea behind it is that...

Spoiler:

...but yes, I agree, the game did a really poor job of explaining on that point. Which is why we need that animated Ace Attorney series set inbetween Phoenix's disbarment and Apollo Justice to flesh things out more.

This and this.

They just needed to word it better. And by 'word it better' I mean 'not pretend it started seven-eight years ago.' Like Ninja Monkey says, there's been more than one person in law who has been guilty (not necessarily 'found guilty') of a serious crime, or at least suspected of one.

Spoiler: Courtroom

And that's not counting what goes on at Criminal Affairs.

Spoiler:

I'm willing to wager there's someone in AAI-2 as well, but since I've not played it, I wouldn't know.

On the other hand, maybe only so much is reported to the public.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:32 pm

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NinjaMonkey wrote:

Spoiler:

The difference is that it was necessary for the plot this time :basil:

No, but seriously, I think DD has the weakest plot of any AA game. The whole "Dark Age of Law" thing doesn't make much sense for the reasons already given, it doesn't feel any different because policemen/attorney murderers and forged evidence are nothing new, Athena is jammed into the plot way too much, and it's pretty much a carbon copy of 1-5's plot.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:36 pm

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I also agree that this was not touched upon. I feel like the writers are trying to distance themselves from the old story.
Which would be untrue as Pearls was included.
Perhaps it might of been considered spoilers. But I would of felt that they should of said other prosecutors in the past have also committed murder. That would leave it ambiguous.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:46 pm

Blademaster_Orca

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Adrian in black wrote:

They just needed to word it better. And by 'word it better' I mean 'not pretend it started seven-eight years ago.' Like Ninja Monkey says, there's been more than one person in law who has been guilty (not necessarily 'found guilty') of a serious crime, or at least suspected of one.

Spoiler: Courtroom

And that's not counting what goes on at Criminal Affairs.

Spoiler:

I'm willing to wager there's someone in AAI-2 as well, but since I've not played it, I wouldn't know.

On the other hand, maybe only so much is reported to the public.

Alternatively, there really hasn't been a moment before these two cases (Phoenix's disbarment and Blackquill's murder, that is) where there's one guilty party from each side of the court found guilty at around the same time. Maybe the public hadn't picked up on the DAOTL because those previous cases had some time between them, unlike this. A build-up of mistrust, if you will.

On a separate note, we don't know if any other big, opinion-swinging cases have happened in the six year gap between Blackquill's case and AA4, either. Free space for future games to use, I'm sure, but that could help further explain things in the future.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:53 pm

NinjaMonkey

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Adrian in black wrote:

Spoiler: Courtroom

And that's not counting what goes on at Criminal Affairs.

Spoiler:

I see you have no love for Kristoph Gavin...

Anyway, thanks for that guys, it's made things clearer and I can continue to enjoy the rest of Case 5 without that bothering me as I play.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:30 am

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Spoiler:

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:31 am

TheBlarghMan

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NinjaMonkey wrote:

Adrian in black wrote:

Spoiler: Courtroom

And that's not counting what goes on at Criminal Affairs.

Spoiler:

I see you have no love for Kristoph Gavin...

Anyway, thanks for that guys, it's made things clearer and I can continue to enjoy the rest of Case 5 without that bothering me as I play.

To be fair, Kristoph Gavin's arrest and convictions were after the Dark Age of the Law had already begun. I think Adrian was just referencing instances of public officials committing crimes before the Dark Age began.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:04 pm

Jean Descole

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TheBlarghMan wrote:

NinjaMonkey wrote:

Adrian in black wrote:

Spoiler: Courtroom

And that's not counting what goes on at Criminal Affairs.

Spoiler:

I see you have no love for Kristoph Gavin...

Anyway, thanks for that guys, it's made things clearer and I can continue to enjoy the rest of Case 5 without that bothering me as I play.

To be fair, Kristoph Gavin's arrest and convictions were after the Dark Age of the Law had already begun. I think Adrian was just referencing instances of public officials committing crimes before the Dark Age began.

Nah, I just forgot about Kristoph. He's on the list too.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:13 pm

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I just took it as "those two cases were the straws that broke the camel's back" and pushed how flawed everything was into the public eye. Especially since Phoenix was instrumental in a lot of them, and having him discredited was huge. (One wonders if Blackquill was key to some of the prosecutions we don't see -- the after-the-fact handling of Redd White, von Karma, Lana, Godot, etc., since those would have needed actual trials themselves, we just don't see them because Phoenix's involvement ends when the initial suspect is found innocent. If he had been one of the few really-squeaky-clean young hopes for the precinct, having him go down too could be a big issue.)

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:22 pm

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I think what a lot of people are leaving out is that the two cases were a media circus, according to the games. While von Karma and Godot may have been swept under the rug to some degree, Phoenix Wright was one of the most famous attorneys of the day, and his fall from grace was a highly publicized disaster, furthermore Blackquill's arrest took place surrounding an incredibly publicized event--the HAT-1 launch, so of course everyone who had access to the news would know about it.

The "Dark Age of the Law" probably was around to some degree before those two happened, but the massive public distrust of the legal system came after the media crucified it surrounding these two instances.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:23 pm

linkenski

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I guess the way they should've explicitly stated it in the game was "Blackquill's conviction was the final straw for people to trust in the legal system" instead of "Because Phoenix and Blackquill were disbarred and arrested respectively people lost hope in the legal system" which is pretty insubstantial since Blackquill doesn't seem to have any particular reputation vs. other prosecutors, and Manfred Von Karma was believed to be the best of the best with his perfect 40 year carreer.

They should've done something more to underscore the issue anyhow. We needed to see more instances in court of people from the gallery vocally expressing mistrust or dislike against the part that had it going for them, or in case 3 which was supposed to show the impact of the issue should've had characters who showed an example of the problem in a more pertinent way.

I rolled eyes every time the term came up in the game, even after it got explained. It wasn't justified at all, and it seemed like it just "had to be there" because it was foreshadowed by Phoenix at the end of AJ:AA. It had potential to be more than it was, that's for sure. I hope GS6 might elaborate on it, even if it's "over".

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:16 pm

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Don't ya know? The Dark Age of Law is faaaar from over. >:D Nick just says that because he's so oblivious. If it lasted only 7 years anyway, that's not an age. That's a prison sentence.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:31 am

linkenski

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Oh gawd xD I'm dying of anticipation now >__>

I hope it's even more redundant in the next game!

No, I jest. The glass is "half-full" and the theme still has more potential. Especially if they adress the Jurist System :-P

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:43 am

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Of Interest: If you game over in the final cross examination, you get a special ending (like 2-4's bad ending) since no one can be declared 'guilty' logically at that point you just hear the judge say that they need another day to gather information. As such the truth is never found and Phoenix comments how the dark age of law got darker and darker in the following days.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:56 am

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Darker and darker because someone's been playing with the Photoshop filters again.

But I actually had no idea there were bad endings in the game, I'll have to go back and find them.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:24 am

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Percei wrote:

Darker and darker because someone's been playing with the Photoshop filters again.

But I actually had no idea there were bad endings in the game, I'll have to go back and find them.

Don't get me wrong...it's a game over, but in the same way 2-4's bad ending was a game over. It's different from your conventional guilty and provides a little extra info that's all, probably not worth hunting.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:30 am

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Pierre wrote:

Percei wrote:

Darker and darker because someone's been playing with the Photoshop filters again.

But I actually had no idea there were bad endings in the game, I'll have to go back and find them.

Don't get me wrong...it's a game over, but in the same way 2-4's bad ending was a game over. It's different from your conventional guilty and provides a little extra info that's all, probably not worth hunting.

I dunno about that. There's at least one ending that I think is even more depressing than JFA's.

For those interested, here's two (out of the possible four I believe) of the bad endings for 5-5. The most depressing one is at the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97G_Eah0Ljc

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:45 am

Pierre

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TheBlarghMan wrote:

Pierre wrote:

Percei wrote:

Darker and darker because someone's been playing with the Photoshop filters again.

But I actually had no idea there were bad endings in the game, I'll have to go back and find them.

Don't get me wrong...it's a game over, but in the same way 2-4's bad ending was a game over. It's different from your conventional guilty and provides a little extra info that's all, probably not worth hunting.

I dunno about that. There's at least one ending that I think is even more depressing than JFA's.

For those interested, here's two (out of the possible four I believe) of the bad endings for 5-5. The most depressing one is at the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97G_Eah0Ljc

Yeah that second one was the one I got.

Also WOW...yeah....glad I didn't screw up on that first one.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:48 am

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I think why there is no saying about the previous game cases are simply to not spoil those who didn't play them. They already said they wanted the make the newbi enjoy them. So simply saying "yeah well there was this prosecutor and that attorney were guilty, plus those police officer" could spoil a bit.

Man those ending are depressing, but not like JFA and GS4 which were really just sad...

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:21 pm

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I don't get that too, it's not like the other law-related criminals are really different.

But I think that people was more aware this time (ironic if you think that Phoenix was one of the people who tried to get more awareness from the public, making a Juror System and everything).

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:41 pm

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Blademaster_Orca wrote:

Alternatively, there really hasn't been a moment before these two cases (Phoenix's disbarment and Blackquill's murder, that is) where there's one guilty party from each side of the court found guilty at around the same time. Maybe the public hadn't picked up on the DAOTL because those previous cases had some time between them, unlike this. A build-up of mistrust, if you will.

But the time gap between Godot's murder and Phoenix' forgery (1-2 months) is far shorter than the one between Phoenix' forgery and Blackquill's murder (1 year).

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:56 pm

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SweetieBot wrote:

Blademaster_Orca wrote:

Alternatively, there really hasn't been a moment before these two cases (Phoenix's disbarment and Blackquill's murder, that is) where there's one guilty party from each side of the court found guilty at around the same time. Maybe the public hadn't picked up on the DAOTL because those previous cases had some time between them, unlike this. A build-up of mistrust, if you will.

But the time gap between Godot's murder and Phoenix' forgery (1-2 months) is far shorter than the one between Phoenix' forgery and Blackquill's murder (1 year).

Admittedly I forgot about that, but if we consider what happened in each case, it's a little more believable and/or relevant to the issue at hand for a "high class" prosecutor to murder their mentor than a low ranking newbie prosecutor with no wins to suddenly go crazy and kill a "ghost". Besides, Godot probably didn't live much longer after the case was over given his health, whereas Blackquill is obviously still alive. The living get more scrutiny than the dead.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:01 pm

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Blademaster_Orca wrote:

SweetieBot wrote:

Blademaster_Orca wrote:

Alternatively, there really hasn't been a moment before these two cases (Phoenix's disbarment and Blackquill's murder, that is) where there's one guilty party from each side of the court found guilty at around the same time. Maybe the public hadn't picked up on the DAOTL because those previous cases had some time between them, unlike this. A build-up of mistrust, if you will.

But the time gap between Godot's murder and Phoenix' forgery (1-2 months) is far shorter than the one between Phoenix' forgery and Blackquill's murder (1 year).

Admittedly I forgot about that, but if we consider what happened in each case, it's a little more believable and/or relevant to the issue at hand for a "high class" prosecutor to murder their mentor than a low ranking newbie prosecutor with no wins to suddenly go crazy and kill a "ghost". Besides, Godot probably didn't live much longer after the case was over given his health, whereas Blackquill is obviously still alive. The living get more scrutiny than the dead.

Right, I here a lot about Godot having no wins as a prosecutor, but I disagree. A little off topic, but from what I can tell, prosecutors get a lot more privileges that attorneys. It makes sense that they also get a lot more cases. Surely Godot would have been winning other cases that aren't against Phoenix so he wouldn't get fired like immediately?

Anyway, back to the dark age of the law. Phoenix's forgery and Blackquill's murder were both extremely high profile cases. They are related to a magician band at the height of their popularity and the country's very own space program. What's more, Phoenix was previously assumed to be an extremely talented or ridiculously lucky lawyer, either way getting a fair bit of attention. Although its true that both sides have previously engaged in dodgy dealings, this is the most high profile occurrence, with Klavier managing to point out straight away that the evidence was forged. At least in the instance of Rise from the Ashes, the false evidence was from a few years back from the case.

My other argument is that, although other cases have taken place in the past, these two recent incidences sparked a discourse in the education system of lawyers.

Spoiler: case 3

This can contribute to a snowballing effect of the Dark Age of the Law. Such an incidence may have encouraged other attorneys to use forged evidence.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:37 am

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Am I the only one who finds the resolution of the "Dark Age of Law" just as bad as how little of it is shown? I know Edgeworth mentioned very vaguely that some new information has come to light, and there's still more corruption and whatnot to deal with, but 5-5 ended on a pretty mellow note. That's not the end of a dark age of anything; that's an intermission. It's not as simple as solving two controversial cases, and then we're done.

Then again, this whole concept of a "dark age" is pretty mellow; makes me feel like we're missing out on too much.

Hahex wrote:

Right, I here a lot about Godot having no wins as a prosecutor, but I disagree. A little off topic, but from what I can tell, prosecutors get a lot more privileges that attorneys. It makes sense that they also get a lot more cases. Surely Godot would have been winning other cases that aren't against Phoenix so he wouldn't get fired like immediately?

Well, he didn't bother showing up to the trial where Payne defeated Xineohp because he knew that wasn't the real guy. He wouldn't have a reason to take a case unless Phoenix did. How he knew which cases Phoenix took, I have no clue.

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Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:04 am

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Okay, so before the Dark age of the law, this happened

Spoiler: GS1

Spoiler: GS3

Spoiler: AAI

Spoiler: GK2

And "the dark age of the law" is now? Sorry, not buying it.

And that is, assuming that the events of AJ falls under "The dark age of the law", if Phoenix' disbarrment was the original starting point. I'm sure media must've covered at least some of this.

If anything, the dark age of the law started at least 50 years ago.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:41 pm

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GoingforMiles wrote:

And "the dark age of the law" is now? Sorry, not buying it.

And that is, assuming that the events of AJ falls under "The dark age of the law", if Phoenix' disbarrment was the original starting point. I'm sure media must've covered at least some of this.

If anything, the dark age of the law started at least 50 years ago.

There's enough that we don't know about during those 7 years to allow a situation by which the "dark age of law" starts at the time it does. For example, we don't have a clear understanding of what the media coverage on the mentioned cases were like. Also, its possible that the amount of corruption demonstrated in the case is the norm for the Phoenix Wright world, and the "Dark Age of the Law" represents a significantly greater amount of forgery and false charges. If we do assume the latter, then it's no wonder the public is so especially mistrustful of the court system, when they seem to already be fairly tolerant.

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

Am I the only one who finds the resolution of the "Dark Age of Law" just as bad as how little of it is shown? I know Edgeworth mentioned very vaguely that some new information has come to light, and there's still more corruption and whatnot to deal with, but 5-5 ended on a pretty mellow note. That's not the end of a dark age of anything; that's an intermission. It's not as simple as solving two controversial cases, and then we're done.

Then again, this whole concept of a "dark age" is pretty mellow; makes me feel like we're missing out on too much.

they're saving the rest of it for the seeeequeeeeel

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:57 pm

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You know what I think of the Dark Age of Law shiz?

Spoiler:

GoingforMiles wrote:

Okay, so before the Dark age of the law, this happened

Spoiler: GS1

Spoiler: GS3

Spoiler: AAI

Spoiler: GK2

And "the dark age of the law" is now? Sorry, not buying it.

And that is, assuming that the events of AJ falls under "The dark age of the law", if Phoenix' disbarrment was the original starting point. I'm sure media must've covered at least some of this.

If anything, the dark age of the law started at least 50 years ago.

Spoiler:

"Oh holy father, holy Brother, holy master... My sacred mission is at last complete. With these two hands, mankind is saved. I am your will made flesh. In your name, I give thanks."

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:41 pm

Going for Miles

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BonnyMono wrote:

Spoiler:

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:49 pm

IronicSalmon

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Spoiler:

Short Version: Dark age just didn't feel important; it was already dark before; ending should have been pitch black.

One of my problems with the "dark age of law" was that it didn't feel like much of a big deal. The characters say the phrase multiple times throughout the game so casually, it's only really given a real definition in Case 5, and like others have said before, the Ace Attorney world is filled with corruption already.

The game's tone didn't feel very different either, besides Athena's story I guess. When I heard that this was supposed to be a darker Ace Attorney game I was excited to see where they would take the series, especially since this was supposed to feature an even darker state of the legal system than previous games. I might have went into the game with too many expectations, one example being in case 3. When I reached Case 3 I was surprised to see how blatantly 3 of the students were talking about and acknowledging the dark age. I thought that Themis Legal Academy would be indoctrinating the student body into truly believing that what they were told is right and that they honestly thought that forging evidence and what not was actually part of being a lawyer. I was hoping that they would be more controlled than they seemed to be, and in the end most of the students would still stay the same, and that we would get the horrible realization that this is only one school in an entire country that is stuck in these dark times. Instead, they don't really expand much on what the other students think and feel, and that there are more places like this like I was hoping for.

I just felt that maybe that could have helped with the build up of the dark age of law.
Also, might as well throw this in, I was hoping that Athena would be guilty. I was playing the last case, waiting for a really dark turn in the story (In fact, I was waiting for a scene where Phoenix (And the especially the immersed player) tries his absolute best to defend Athena, but in the end comes to the conclusion that Athena was the culprit in a more emotional scene where he sees that he couldn't even trust her in this dark age) . However, Athena was innocent, Blackquill was innocent, The Masked-Phantom-Spy-Man that we are supposed to take seriously was... weird. All in all, none of it really sold itself as any different than the previous dark age of the last games. In my opinion, they could have made it a darker and more important concept to the player and the characters as well.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:19 pm

zpattack12

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To be honest, we know the entire series of Ace Attorney can be treated as a satire towards the Japanese Court System. The only difference is that in the original trilogy, they didn't flat out tell you. People say show, not tell, and they did not tell us explicitly about this "Dark Age of Law", but through the actions of the character, and through the way the system was portrayed, they were able to show this to us. Dual Destinies, and I believe a little bit of Apollo Justice (not 100% sure though) kinda hit you over the head with this idea. Dual Destinies especially tells you over and over and over, even though it would've been much more powerful for them to show us through actions of the characters.

Re: I don't get this "Dark age of the Law" stuff (spoilers)

Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:39 am

Rognik

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I think the big difference between Blackquill getting arrested, and not any of the others is that

Spoiler: Blackquill

That, coupled with Wright's disbarring (and use of forged evidence), is what would've ushered in the Dark Days of the Law. The guilty parties before Blackquill tried to hide their crimes, and Phoenix using forged evidence tainted every other trial he ever defended: it's certainly a one-two punch where the end justifies the means, and people lost faith in the court system.