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Phoenix's Morality (Spoilers!)Topic%20Title
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I kind of couldn't help but to notice something about Phoenix. Granted, he was still the same Phoenix from GS1-3, just under bigger pressure of the events around him, but the way he spoke about Professor Means's philosophy, make him look kinda hypocritical.

"The results may only come by fair and honest means", to quote him.

I believe you do recall 4-1 and 4-4? In which he recreated evidence, which counts as fabrication. In which he used jury he choose himself to render verdict he wanted, withholding the facts of which he was aware of? Then again, he doesn't seem to remember it himself. Neither does Apollo.

Any thoughts?


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Hmm I don't remember him fabricating evidence in 4-4. That was an accident that he got disbarred for and he couldn't have possibly known unless it's some other fabrication I'm missing.

As for 4-1 I was under the impression the evidence wasn't used to 'prove' anything on it's own. It was the reaction from Kristoph that was needed because only the killer would react to seeing a piece of incriminating evidence that he should have taken care of brought out in court. It wasn't actually used to prove a point, it was Kristoph's knowledge that betrayed him. If anything Phoenix was playing more mind games then that Blackquill ever did with all his 'psychology'.
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Yeah, I meant 4-1 (evidence) and 4-4 (jury) separately.

Hmm...
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Sligneris wrote:
Yeah, I meant 4-1 (evidence) and 4-4 (jury) separately.

Hmm...


Please let's not touch the Mason System, that thing is a mess, but yeah the Jury was chosen because they weren't connected to the case at all right? That one juror brings up the issue and Phoenix is like "Yeah no one is connected to the case", sure he chose the people but so what it's not like he rigged the jury especially.

Though based on DD I'd say they've retconned the Jury system out of the AA universe.
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Pierre wrote:
Please let's not touch the Mason System, that thing is a mess, but yeah the Jury was chosen because they weren't connected to the case at all right? That one juror brings up the issue and Phoenix is like "Yeah no one is connected to the case", sure he chose the people but so what it's not like he rigged the jury especially.

Well, with that one juror being Thalassa, who remembered that she was defense's mother, soo... And he just left things like that with her as "Lamiroir", despite knowing the connection.

I just sort of assumed he choose rest of jurors in a similar manner...
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I disagree that Phoenix's ideology is hypocritical. It may be poorly worded (I suppose you could argue "the end justifies the means" is part of Phoenix's philosophy in a different manner), but the difference in ideologies comes down to "truth" vs. "results". Phoenix bluffs, but he's not dishonest. He won't knowingly lie or rig a trial, because he doesn't want to protect a guilty client.

They pretty clearly tried to retcon as much of AJ!Phoenix as they could, though. (And as much of AJ:AA in general, but that's a different issue.)

It's probably because of how we saw so little of his character development, but it's always been interesting to me how people never call AJ!Phoenix "Phoenix". It's almost as if they're two separate entities - Phoenix Wright is understood to be the earnest, inwardly-sarcastic lawyer. AJ!Phoenix is almost universally referred to as Hobo!Nick or Hobohodo or something else with a qualifier.
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Coyote wrote:
I disagree that Phoenix's ideology is hypocritical. It may be poorly worded (I suppose you could argue "the end justifies the means" is part of Phoenix's philosophy in a different manner), but the difference in ideologies comes down to "truth" vs. "results". Phoenix bluffs, but he's not dishonest. He won't knowingly lie or rig a trial, because he doesn't want to protect a guilty client.

They pretty clearly tried to retcon as much of AJ!Phoenix as they could, though. (And as much of AJ:AA in general, but that's a different issue.)

It's probably because of how we saw so little of his character development, but it's always been interesting to me how people never call AJ!Phoenix "Phoenix". It's almost as if they're two separate entities - Phoenix Wright is understood to be the earnest, inwardly-sarcastic lawyer. AJ!Phoenix is almost universally referred to as Hobo!Nick or Hobohodo or something else with a qualifier
.


Ehh that's not much special, it's just to distinguish a phase of his life when people are talking about him. It's the same thing with nicknaming college!Phoenix "Feenie" it's not a big deal.

Though it's a shame I quite liked a lot of Nick's style in AJ, that masterful, more laid back approach to things. However it's not really fitting for a protagonist who can fail I suppose.

Also Nick wasn't especially sure that she was Apollo's mother at that point though you should bear in mind that Thalassa's verdict is the deciding one. If you vote guilty it goes to a hung jury meaning it was a draw (I think) so clearly the jury wasn't especially rigged otherwise the final vote wouldn't really mean much if everyone else was connected to the case in a slight way so as to convict Phoenix's nemesis.
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Pierre wrote:
Ehh that's not much special, it's just to distinguish a phase of his life when people are talking about him. It's the same thing with nicknaming college!Phoenix "Feenie" it's not a big deal.

Hm. I don't necessarily think it's a "big deal", but I do think it's a notable quirk. Nicknaming young Phoenix "Feenie" is more or less the same thing - because we didn't see the direct progression of his personality from college to the first three games to AJ era!Phoenix, there's a level of cognitive dissonance in how we see the different versions of him.

For all I know, it's just a byproduct of this particular fanbase. In my other major fandom, it's a different thing. For comparison's sake: Wesley Wyndam-Pryce from Buffy and Wesley Wyndam-Pryce from the later seasons of Angel are very different people, but because the progression happens onscreen, they're both just Wesley (or Wes, if you want to be technical) in discussion, unless a qualifier is needed.

With Phoenix, the qualifier is often the default, even when the conversation already provides the context in which his stage of life should be naturally understood.
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And let's not forget 1-5 and 3-3. Phoenix is practically the embodiment of "end justifies the means".
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GoingforMiles wrote:
And let's not forget 1-5 and 3-3. Phoenix is practically the embodiment of "end justifies the means".

I'm sure he got it from Mia.

Then again, none of what either one did - aside from Mia publicly blackmailing Redd White into a confession (but hey, she's already dead, who cares) - could actually be considered illegal. It's in the art of bending rules and carefully expressed diction. It's also why Phoenix could never be arrested on official charges, regardless of whether he was in the right or wrong.

Yep, it might as well be official... PHOENIX WRIGHT STARTED THE DARK AGE OF THE LAW. Ah, I always wanted to say that. The game's logo was Wright all along.

That's pretty much why Kristoph was so pissed that day. He wasn't upset that Phoenix managed to set up something to trap him; he was upset that Phoenix managed to get away with it because it was LEGAL. Nick just trumped Kris at the best thing he claimed to have: legal hijinx.
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And he gets detectives (or at least Gumshoe) to leak information they shouldn't (even if that's not Phoenix' problem) and investigates in places where he shouldn't be. Even if his bending of the rules aren't considered illegal, it still is an "end justififes the means" philosophy. I thought of it when I viewed case 3 as well, and thought that considering Athena wants to take distance from those methods, it could have resulted in an interesting clash between them. Appearently not.

And about 4-1, even if it wsn't supposed to be treated as evidence in its own right but rather to trigger a reaction from Kristoph, but it still was forged, and it was given to Apollo without telling him it was just a replica, which makes it not only illegal but also immoral. However it made it possible to capture Kristoph, so... the end justified the means.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
And he gets detectives (or at least Gumshoe) to leak information they shouldn't (even if that's not Phoenix' problem) and investigates in places where he shouldn't be. Even if his bending of the rules aren't considered illegal, it still is an "end justififes the means" philosophy. I thought of it when I viewed case 3 as well, and thought that considering Athena wants to take distance from those methods, it could have resulted in an interesting clash between them. Appearently not.

And about 4-1, even if it wsn't supposed to be treated as evidence in its own right but rather to trigger a reaction from Kristoph, but it still was forged, and it was given to Apollo without telling him it was just a replica, which makes it not only illegal but also immoral. However it made it possible to capture Kristoph, so... the end justified the means.


The information from detectives thing? I've always been curious about, I thought in real-life law information was made available to both parties so I've never thought of it as that bad. To me him extracting information from detectives has looked more like general curiosity, it's not like he makes a beeline to Gumshoe everytime something goes wrong.

However you might have something about investigating where he shouldn't be, after all look at the very start of 5-3. Phoenix encourages Athena to investigate before the police arrive and she's notably anxious about that. Though most times he is the defending attorney and has a right to be on-site.

Again about the Bloody Ace, Phoenix was there beside Apollo at the time, he could easily be there to ensure Apollo doesn't use the Ace illegally and end up disbarred himself. Also it was never like it was official evidence in the first place, at the time it would be a personal effect, a random little card picked up from a magician in the hall, no more significant than the locket Phoenix carries with him in DD. It was Apollo who pieced together the dots.
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They're not my words, Gumshoe himself says he shouldn't give information to Phoenix since they're on "opposite sides" and there have been times when he's been caught red-handed because he's not supposed to be investigating in that particular place or time.

The bloody ace was used to figure out the position of the victim and all that stuff, although it wasn't the real deal but rather a replica, which Apollo didn't know about, hence the strong reaction when he found out. So it was used, maybe not illegally but in a rather sneaky way that Apollo himself wasn't aware of.

So again, in the end of the day Phoenix may not break any rules, and it was Gumshoe/Apollo who agreed to leak the information/use the help from a random item he got from a mysterious person, but: in the end of the day Phoenix takes advantage of bending the rules a little, all in order to save his client and catch the real culprit, and his methods can be summarized with the end. justifies. the means.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
They're not my words, Gumshoe himself says he shouldn't give information to Phoenix since they're on "opposite sides" and there have been times when he's been caught red-handed because he's not supposed to be investigating in that particular place or time.

The bloody ace was used to figure out the position of the victim and all that stuff, although it wasn't the real deal but rather a replica, which Apollo didn't know about, hence the strong reaction when he found out. So it was used, maybe not illegally but in a rather sneaky way that Apollo himself wasn't aware of.

So again, in the end of the day Phoenix may not break any rules, and it was Gumshoe/Apollo who agreed to leak the information/use the help from a random item he got from a mysterious person, but: in the end of the day Phoenix takes advantage of bending the rules a little, all in order to save his client and catch the real culprit, and his methods can be summarized with the end. justifies. the means.


Not quite, there's a difference between 'bending the rules a little' and 'the end justifies the means'. The end justifies the means is an extreme phrase, no matter what you do so long as you accomplish your goal it's worth it. 'Bending the rules a little' isn't quite that bad. He didn't forge evidence to create a whole case around, he made a replica of an object that was already in the case.

The end justifies the means would be forging a bloody murder weapon with Kristoph's fingerprints on it. Phoenix has his limits and having limits is not "The ends justifies the means"
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Hmm, it does sound a bit hypocritical, doesn't it? I don't think it was supposed to come across that way though; even though Phoenix's morals have always been a bit...elastic, his heart has always been in the right place. Truth has always been important to him. And he is navigating a pretty broken legal system, so if he sees an advantage, such as being able to conduct his own investigation behind the backs of the police or get Gumshoe to spill some intel, it's reasonable that he'd do so. The forging of the bloody ace was the only way to entrap a genuinely guilty party; same thing for the MASON system. I also think that around the time of AJ:AA, he pretty much was of the attitude that the rules of lawyering didn't apply to him any longer (what were they going to do? Disbar him again?). For him, and by extension Mia, it seems that it's more a matter of upholding the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law, rather than whether the means justifies the ends.

Professor Means seemed to be teaching his students how to be mercenaries rather than lawyers; that it doesn't matter what the truth is, who your client is, what crime was committed or not - the only thing that matters is that whoever is paying you walks away happy with the results. And it doesn't matter what you have to do to get that result. It's the difference between bending the rules, or breaking them and then pissing on their ruins. So of course Phoenix will get righteously outraged; it's like the total opposite of what he stands for as an attorney.

I agree that they do seem to be trying to retcon as much of AJ:AA as possible (thank god...) but I think it is interesting to compare Phoenix's attitude and methods to Apollo's, who has always been much more of a straight-shooter and who seems to be interested in upholding the spirit and letter of the law, especially by the end of DD. Hopefully they'll play with this dynamic more in GS6.
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I'm sure Fulbright would agree that everything is all fine and well so long as you're aiming for justice. But speaking seriously now, sometimes it feels as if some areas of Apollo's game took place in an alternate universe, never to be revisited again.
Phoenix seems to be a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy recently, but I'd say his beliefs are more...stretchy than hypocritical. Perhaps Capcom is trying to get a little contrast going on among the lawyers...
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Damn it. Never mind this.
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Yep, it might as well be official... PHOENIX WRIGHT STARTED THE DARK AGE OF THE LAW.

I suppose I should clarify what I mean by that enlarged statement up there. He started the dark age of the law not because of his disbarment itself, but because of the attention from the community he roused up about it. Heck, even after MvK was arrested, people figured "Ah, well. So that old guy probably looney with his obsession over perfection. Big deal. He's only one guy."
Franziska may have bent the rules by snapping up a photo Mia in Maya's body, but she only showed it to His Honor, not submit it as evidence, so she's also clean. Never mind the whip being in court.
Later, Godot comes along, but he was never a high-profile prosecutor in the first place, so people didn't care for him.
And then, Phoenix gets disbarred. "Whoa, you mean the guy we all thought was Justice Incarnate turned out to be a fraud? Man, that sucks."
And then, Blackquill gets arrested. "HOLY SH*# WHAT THE F*&# IS GOING ON WITH THE LEGAL WORLD!?"
...Okay, I may be exaggerating again, but the buildup went up a little sharply at the end. Still, chain reactions do induce exponential buildup, so it's not completely out of the range of possibility.

GoingforMiles wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Not quite, there's a difference between 'bending the rules a little' and 'the end justifies the means'. The end justifies the means is an extreme phrase, no matter what you do so long as you accomplish your goal it's worth it. 'Bending the rules a little' isn't quite that bad. He didn't forge evidence to create a whole case around, he made a replica of an object that was already in the case.

The end justifies the means would be forging a bloody murder weapon with Kristoph's fingerprints on it. Phoenix has his limits and having limits is not "The ends justifies the means"


When did I ever say it was bad?

Oh my dear holy spirit. What does this mean...?
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The thing is I've never thought of "the end justifies the means" as a phrase used exclusively to justify extreme actions, in the situations I've heard it in it's more leaning towards consequentialism. Some things Phoenix has done throughout the games have been quite... sneaky, although he hasn't done anything wrong or illegal. He's just using some sly tricks (means) to get around obstacles he faces while trying to dig up the truth and get the innocent defendant off the hook (end). And it's justified.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
The thing is I've never thought of "the end justifies the means" as a phrase used exclusively to justify extreme actions, in the situations I've heard it in it's more leaning towards consequentialism. Some things Phoenix has done throughout the games have been quite... sneaky, although he hasn't done anything wrong or illegal. He's just using some sly tricks (means) to get around obstacles he faces while trying to dig up the truth and get the innocent defendant off the hook (end). And it's justified.


Look man, "The End Justifies the Means" may be a Professor Means' catchphrase but it's not exclusively used by him. I've heard it used far more often in action settings, for dark-heroes...the kind that tie up people and shoot their spouses in the knees to make them talk. The kind of reasoning the villain gives for his desire to purge the world of a specific kind of people. It's very rarely used for those who just do minor infractions or 'bending the rules'.

The End justifies the means means results at ANY cost. It's geared towards extreme action. If Phoenix was such a practitioner he could have done far...far worse when it came to rigging the Mason system and 4-1's trial.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
The thing is I've never thought of "the end justifies the means" as a phrase used exclusively to justify extreme actions, in the situations I've heard it in it's more leaning towards consequentialism.

There is a very, very clear distinction between that phrase and consequentialism. The phrase itself is vague, yes, but
Pierre wrote:
It's very rarely used for those who just do minor infractions or 'bending the rules'.

because usually the means that are not considered extreme have other reasons beside the end to back them up. Two of the better reasons in Nick's case is that his actions are reasonable and legal.
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Bending the rules to find the truth is different from bending the rules for a specific verdict.

Professor Means' means will get the verdict he wants.

Phoenix's means are used for finding the truth (whether it be his client guilty or innocent).
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Yeah, okay, people around me have misused the phrase my entire life. I get it now. Scratch everything I've said in this thread.
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It seems people interpret this sentence differently. Back when AJ was released, I've seen people use the expression "the end justifies the means" to describe Phoenix's actions in that game.

In DD though, Means clearly says that the "end" is a not-guilty verdict. While Phoenix's "end" was to bring the true criminal to justice. So even if Phoenix's actions were questionable, there's a distinction between what he was doing and what Means does.

I can see why Phoenix's line can be considered hypocritical though. But he may simply have changed. As I've seen mentioned, this can be justified by the fact that Phoenix wasn't a lawyer back in AJ. Now that he's got his badge back, the situation is different and he has to follow the rules. Plus he was partially responsible for the Dark Age of the Law, and he kinda took part of it in AJ, so now if he wants to put an end to it, he must set an example. (That's just a possible interpretation).

On a side note, do people here really think Phoenix has done nothing illegal? I mean in 4-1 he actually forged a piece of evidence, even if it was a replica of a real one. And it was used to prove that the killer used the secret passage which was blocking the window.
By the way, he also forged a piece of evidence in 4-4 (he made a replica of Kristoph's yellow letter).
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Jozerick wrote:
It seems people interpret this sentence differently. Back when AJ was released, I've seen people use the expression "the end justifies the means" to describe Phoenix's actions in that game.

In DD though, Means clearly says that the "end" is a not-guilty verdict. While Phoenix's "end" was to bring the true criminal to justice. So even if Phoenix's actions were questionable, there's a distinction between what he was doing and what Means does.

I can see why Phoenix's line can be considered hypocritical though. But he may simply have changed. As I've seen mentioned, this can be justified by the fact that Phoenix wasn't a lawyer back in AJ. Now that he's got his badge back, the situation is different and he has to follow the rules. Plus he was partially responsible for the Dark Age of the Law, and he kinda took part of it in AJ, so now if he wants to put an end to it, he must set an example. (That's just a possible interpretation).

On a side note, do people here really think Phoenix has done nothing illegal? I mean in 4-1 he actually forged a piece of evidence, even if it was a replica of a real one. And it was used to prove that the killer used the secret passage which was blocking the window.
By the way, he also forged a piece of evidence in 4-4 (he made a replica of Kristoph's yellow letter).


I'm with you all the way, but I have to say: what is or isn't illegal is pretty fluid/dubious in the world of Ace Attorney. If prosecutors forge evidence, they get a reprimand. If Phoenix submits forged evidence, he loses his badge.

Many things that would be illegal in our world are commonplace in AA: Phoenix is both attorney and detective for the defense? He steals things from crime scenes (sometimes even from personal dwellings, like the wiretap from April May's hotel room), and yet they're viable in court? And that's not to start on all the nonsense that goes on in the courtroom itself.

Whether Phoenix's characterization is consistent is arguable either way, but I think the issue of this debate comes down to some pretty trivial things. We aren't judging in-universe things by in-universe standards, and nobody seems to agree on what "the end justifies the means," well... means.

(I think you're spot on, though: the "end" for Phoenix is the truth, which is markedly different from Prof. Means's "end".)
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Cream Soda wrote:
Bending the rules to find the truth is different from bending the rules for a specific verdict.

Professor Means' means will get the verdict he wants.

Phoenix's means are used for finding the truth (whether it be his client guilty or innocent).


This, really.

Aristotle Means claims to be a "result oriented person", but his result is just blatant corruption, and his use of "the end justifies the means" is merely an excuse to engage in said corruption.
Re: Phoenix's Morality (Spoilers!)Topic%20Title

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Here are my thoughts:

Spoiler: 4-4
In case 4-4, the judge said that the video of Kristoph's cell was inadmissible. Yet it seems like Phoenix showed it through the jury. At least if it had been introduced in court, Klavier could have responded to it. Instead, Klavier doesn't even know about everything the jury is seeing.

The Mason system actually starts up with a picture of Kristoph, if I recall correctly.

The case never mentions what Kristoph is in prison for (except through the Mason system!), and since "Lamiroir" probably doesn't know about "Shadi Smith," it's possible that she doesn't know. But if she does know, that means she's not only the mother of the defense attorney and his assistant, but the wife of Kristoph's previous victim.


Spoiler: 4-4 backstory
Just a reminder that Phoenix was an idiot who presented evidence without knowing why the police didn't find it or how it came to reach him.


Spoiler: 1-5
Someone in this thread said that entering Gant's office wouldn't be illegal in the real world. I'm going to have to disagree. Entering through a locked door to go into a room they're not allowed to be in sounds pretty similar to breaking and entering and trespassing. When you add in the fact that their goal was basically to raid Gant's safe (though not for personal gain or permanent acquisition of property), what they did could arguably be construed in some states as burglary, a felony. Based on the California penal code, it looks like it would NOT constitute burglary, but it's still almost certainly illegal. I guess you could argue that Gumshoe's permission made it legal, but he said he was at least breaking department rules. It was also irresponsible for Phoenix to take Ema along when doing this, potentially making her an accomplice or at least an accessory.


Spoiler: Getting information from detectives
Someone in this thread said that they thought the state was obligated to share evidence with the defense in real life. I think the requirements vary from state to state. I'm not sure about California. However, the only thing that the state has to share with the defense in every state is exculpatory evidence. "Exculpatory" is the opposite of "incriminating." In fact, the desire to avoid sharing too much with the defense is shown in preliminary hearings. Most states require the prosecution to do appear at a preliminary hearing to get an indictment. The prosecution strategy at a preliminary hearing is usually to present just enough evidence to get an indictment (basically prove that the person probably committed the crime and that they have enough evidence to put the defendant on trial) without disclosing all of their evidence. Even in jurisdictions where the state is required to disclose much more, I doubt they'd let the defense come to the crime scene before the initial investigation is over, which seems to happen at least occasionally in AA.


Spoiler: 4-1
I'm going to discuss Trucy's actions here, which reflect on Phoenix. There is some debate about who forged the bloody ace. Some people think Trucy did it because she didn't want to lose another Papa. Regardless, she probably at least knew that the way it was being introduced was fishy. Remember, this is the exact same girl who, at age 8, got Phoenix disbarred by handing him evidence that she didn't know was forged. This time, though, she's 15 and probably does know that it's forged. Good thing Apollo didn't get disbarred at his first trial! To be fair, some people claim Phoenix actually tried to shield Apollo from responsibility from the thing. Some people also argue that this was the only way to bring down Kristoph since he was so good at manipulating the existing system, but that's basically "end justifies the means" reasoning.


Spoiler: jury system
Some people interpret Phoenix in AJ as a manipulative mastermind who changed the entire country's legal system just to bring down Kristoph. I'm not sure I buy that, but it does seem weird that a former defense attorney was trying to introduce a system that was almost touted as a way to get people convicted without decisive evidence.


Spoiler: Means, Robin, Hugh, and 5-3
Since this thread is about "the end justifies the means," let's talk about Professor Means. It seems like the game tries to discredit his philosophy by having him as the culprit. The problem is that he doesn't actually follow his own philosophy - it's just a front. Although they sound similar, "the end justifies the means" is not the same as "win at all costs" (although perhaps you could discredit the former by saying that it ends up being a cover spin for the latter). The difference is that "the end justifies the means" is traditionally associated by people using bad means to pursue what they see as a good end. Professor Means, on the other hand, was using bad means to pursue what even a delusional person would see as a completely self-serving, bad end (selling grades when he can presumably support himself and his family without doing so). Athena herself said that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions," which is the main argument against "end justifies the means," doesn't apply to Professor Means.

If Professor Means doesn't follow his own philosophy, is there anyone who does follow it? Why yes: Robin and Hugh. (Even Junie, a devoted follower of Constance Courte, tried to rig a mock trial to prevent her friendship with Hugh from getting awkward. Granted, this turned out to be unnecessary.) Robin, in particular, buys you time by falsely confessing to the murder. The end of saving Junie justifies the means of committing mega-perjury. By risking her own freedom with a lie, she gets you extra time that you might be able to use to find the truth. It's unclear how you could have won without her help. Hugh was a little less helpful, since his lies severely complicated your ability to figure out the case. Still, his false testimony inadvertently led you to his crucial statements about Means being absent from the stands. So the case that supposedly disproved "the end justifies the means" was one that you could not have won without people telling huge lies to help you.

Means was not nearly Machiavellian enough to truly represent the philosophy he espoused. It would seem from the case that the problem is insincerity, not the philosophy itself. I'm not expecting the game to go into act utilitarianism versus rule utilitarianism, or to reach Code Geass levels of debate over justifiable means, but its coverage of the subject seems completely shallow.


For a better coverage of this, if a more abstract one, go play Socrates Jones: Pro Philosopher. It's based on Ace Attorney.
Re: Phoenix's Morality (Spoilers!)Topic%20Title
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
GoingforMiles wrote:
And let's not forget 1-5 and 3-3. Phoenix is practically the embodiment of "end justifies the means".

I'm sure he got it from Mia.


This is probably true. We should also remember in 1-3 that Nick wasn't going to call Cody Hackins as a witness at the behest of Mia because Cody's testimony that 'proved' the Steel Samurai did it was detrimental to his client's case. Then Gumshoe overheard it and pulled Cody in anyway.
fuck
Re: Phoenix's Morality (Spoilers!)Topic%20Title
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I always, always, always misread the name of this topic "Phoenix's Mortality" and I get just as damn confused every single time. :nick-sweat:
Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
Re: Phoenix's Morality (Spoilers!)Topic%20Title
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WaitingforGodot wrote:
I always, always, always misread the name of this topic "Phoenix's Mortality" and I get just as damn confused every single time. :nick-sweat:

That's an entirely different topic of discussion. Given all of the things Phoenix has survived relatively unscathed, he may well actually be immortal.
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Coyote wrote:
WaitingforGodot wrote:
I always, always, always misread the name of this topic "Phoenix's Mortality" and I get just as damn confused every single time. :nick-sweat:

That's an entirely different topic of discussion. Given all of the things Phoenix has survived relatively unscathed, he may well actually be immortal.


Touché.
Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
Re: Phoenix's Morality (Spoilers!)Topic%20Title
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Coyote wrote:
WaitingforGodot wrote:
I always, always, always misread the name of this topic "Phoenix's Mortality" and I get just as damn confused every single time. :nick-sweat:

That's an entirely different topic of discussion. Given all of the things Phoenix has survived relatively unscathed, he may well actually be immortal.

People seem to forget what he's named after.

I can only await Takumi's plans if he ever considers putting out a GSvsGT crossover. Then all those times of ditching the Reaper will finally be paid.
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