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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Fair enough.
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Nearavex wrote:
Athena was the core of the plot? Granted, we do experience most of it from her point of view, but I still felt like it was more about her and Apollo, not just her.

You might present 5-5 to counter it, but there's the thing - she's the new main character - it's natural her backstory would be brought up, just like Apollo's was in GS4 and Phoenix's and Edgeworth's in GS1.


Except you'd be wrong, and right simultaneously.

No the plot is not about her and Apollo as such. It's pretty much just her becaauuusseee...

Yes you are right she's the new main character and it's natural that she'd get more attention being tied into the new Prosecutor's backstory and all.

The problem is she's so FORCED in there where she wasn't needed or especially wanted. When marketing was going on I was desperately hoping for an AJ2. However what was presented to me had Phoenix Wright on the (digital) box and so I figured I could settle for it.

What I bought the game it turned out to be Athena Cykes 1.

Imagine a birthday party. A kid is celebrating with his friends. Then the cool kid from school shows up everyone goes to hang out with them and follow their adventures. Afterwards all everyone remembers about it is "that time when the cool kid did..."

She overshadowed everyone else but she didn't have the right to do so because the game promised more. Apollo never gets to square off with Klavier, the only backstory he gets is brand new stuff added in to serve Athena's plot, all his loose ends are left loose. His sister is reduced to one joke from the previous game (like seriously thats the sort of treatment crossover games, that have to cover a lot of characters briefly, give their characters).

Though I'll point out that even if it's a 'demo' line and non-canonical it is still trying to accurately portray the character of Phoenix Wright. If Capcom released the non-canon adventures where Phoenix actually turned out to be a samurai of neo olde tokyo it wouldn't change the fact his character is an accurate representation. It's the scenario that's non-canon, the behaviours of the characters are fine (excluding the fourth wall stuff that's hilarious).
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Pierre wrote:
You say a 2-lawyer dynamic with Phoenix and Apollo would go two ways: Apollo getting overshadowed, or Phoenix's big return feeling pointless depending on who the story focused on. Yet you defend the addition of a third person who both overshadows Apollo and makes Phoenix feel pointless.

Adding more characters to the pot when you are afraid of current ones being overlooked doesn't solve the problem.

How adding Athena overshadows Apollo? I'd say it's quite the opposite - like Shadow said, Apollo now has someone he can act as a peer and/or senior to, so even with Phoenix returning he isn't just... there, like it sometimes felt in AJ and like it would feel without Athena.

To me, Apollo's character was actually fleshed out more in DD, than it was originally in his own game... For a protagonist, he was incredibly bland.

I don't really have much to say to your most recent post either. Probably that I just don't view it this way.
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Nearavex wrote:
Pierre wrote:
You say a 2-lawyer dynamic with Phoenix and Apollo would go two ways: Apollo getting overshadowed, or Phoenix's big return feeling pointless depending on who the story focused on. Yet you defend the addition of a third person who both overshadows Apollo and makes Phoenix feel pointless.

Adding more characters to the pot when you are afraid of current ones being overlooked doesn't solve the problem.

How adding Athena overshadows Apollo? I'd say it's quite the opposite - like Shadow said, Apollo now has someone he can act as a peer and/or senior to, so even with Phoenix returning he isn't just... there, like it sometimes felt in AJ and like it would feel without Athena.

To me, Apollo's character was actually fleshed out more in DD, than it was originally in his own game... For a protagonist, he was incredibly bland.

I don't really have much to say to your most recent post either. Probably that I just don't view it this way.


Of course, I'm well versed in how you ignore problems.

Shadow said this:
Quote:
I can see where you're coming from here. Athena as a fresh perspective does give Apollo more relevance and pull in the narrative, like when Phoenix lets Apollo pull "what little rank he has" on Athena in one part. More scenes like that would have been cool, and it does help Apollo as a character to have someone he can act as a peer/senior to. I think that if they'd handled Athena PROPERLY that this could be a really good thing.


I'll draw emphasis in how he says if Athena was handled properly it could really work and how he'd want more scenes that like that. They had that dynamic you suggested but it was really minor and barely touched upon. It was interesting like that one-time it comes up but (like Apollo as a whole) it wasn't really used.

You can't say "Oh but this minor dynamic that was kinda cool" means he isn't overshadowed. Overshadowing is about relevance, not neat little touches. Apollo's only relevance in this game is to further Athena's plot. Sure the Clay Terran bit was nice, but it only served to have Apollo distrust Athena for the implications she done it. The game is vastly about Athena and her exploits.

Also (while it's easy to forget), Apollo already had someone to be senior too. Trucy remember? His assistant from his own game? The one who got shafted so hard you'd be forgiven for forgetting her. He's ultimately the expert when she's on the scene, much like Maya was Nick's inferior. If you wanted senior-junior relationships yeah there already was one. That's pretty much the purpose of the assistant to create that role. All it would have taken in an Athena-less world where Trucy assisted Apollo in cases is one line from Nick before they go out on a case saying "Now you be good for Apollo, he's not THAT dull after all" and WHAM I've instantly got the Dad-Nick relationship and a bit of the snarky old Hobo-Nick and Apollo having a position of superiority over someone.
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Disagreeing with your opinion = Ignoring problems? I don't think so.

Trucy is also nothing like Apollo's junior partner - hell, she isn't a lawyer which is a point in itself, but she also seems to show even more experience than Apollo, which is exactly why it wouldn't work - like I said he'd be just there, as an underdog to Trucy and her father. Hell, it might even still be this way in some part, but at least the whole game doesn't look like this with Athena in it.
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Nearavex wrote:
Disagreeing with your opinion = Ignoring problems? I don't think so.

Trucy is also nothing like Apollo's junior partner - hell, she seems to show even more experience than Apollo, which is exactly why it wouldn't work - like I said he'd be just there, as an underdog to Trucy and her father. Hell, it might even still be this way in some part, but at least the whole game doesn't look like this with Athena in it.


No but you don't like to discuss problems you give up too quickly I'd say to the point that you ARE ignoring problems.

You tend to show up say "STOP BASHING ATHENA I LIKE HER!" then back off real quick when people say "But we've got concerns." You don't make much of an attempt to alleviate those concerns, or persuade people otherwise, you don't really make a case or when you do and people say "actually I have a problem with your interpretation of events" you just go like "Well we'll disagree".

I suppose that could be fine and I'd let that slide normally, people have a right to their own opinions, except you keep starting these arguments again. You say "Lets just agree to disagree" but then when other people are talking about Athena again you come back and are like "STOP BASHING ATHENA I LIKE HER!" and the cycle begins again.

But in any case lets look at the facts somewhat:

Athena has a large role in the game and is essentially the core plot as she is tied into the new Prosecutor's backstory.

Apollo never truly gets to square off against his own rival who is basically irrelevant in every way in this game (unlike Edgeworth though his inclusion is extremely minor as well but not as bad). This is in addition to characters from Apollo's own arc who either disappear entirely or are reduced to little more than cameos (Trucy) thus leaving most of Apollo's arc bare.

A new character is introduced connected to Apollo...and killed off before they have a chance to really interact. This serves to create a connection of distrust between Apollo and Athena of which Apollo is ultimately in the wrong.

Apollo gets a few neat little moments (so far I've seen that one line) where he gets to establish himself as Athena's 'superior officer' as such however there could be more of these.

Athena is connected to the Prosecutor, his sister who hates her, a recurring Witness (Junie) and by extension Junie's friends (who all show up to support her), the main antagonist has a direct confrontation with her, a prior and vague connection to Phoenix, a connection to the location of the final case, a connection to other characters Ponco and Clonco.

She's pretty damn important whereas the only character outside the agency Apollo is really connected to is Clay Terran who is dead long before we see them have any actual interaction and Klavier who is second only to Pearl in Case 5-5 for "worthless cameos in this game".

If we look at the numbers of meaningful connections to the plot, it's all about Athena and she vastly overshadows Apollo, something you claim they are roughly on equal footing for.
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Pierre wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Disagreeing with your opinion = Ignoring problems? I don't think so.

Trucy is also nothing like Apollo's junior partner - hell, she seems to show even more experience than Apollo, which is exactly why it wouldn't work - like I said he'd be just there, as an underdog to Trucy and her father. Hell, it might even still be this way in some part, but at least the whole game doesn't look like this with Athena in it.


No but you don't like to discuss problems you give up too quickly I'd say to the point that you ARE ignoring problems.

You tend to show up say "STOP BASHING ATHENA I LIKE HER!" then back off real quick when people say "But we've got concerns." You don't make much of an attempt to alleviate those concerns, or persuade people otherwise, you don't really make a case or when you do and people say "actually I have a problem with your interpretation of events" you just go like "Well we'll disagree".

I suppose that could be fine and I'd let that slide normally, people have a right to their own opinions, except you keep starting these arguments again. You say "Lets just agree to disagree" but then when other people are talking about Athena again you come back and are like "STOP BASHING ATHENA I LIKE HER!" and the cycle begins again.

Well, I suppose I'm just not fond of taking the same points and repeating them over and over again. I present my argument, you present your own. But my argument is already there, presented. I feel like I answer these concerns, then you move on with exactly the same claims... so what am I supposed to do? Repeat these same responses to these same claims? To me that'd be awfully dull and would look even more defensive than how you view it now, so I just state I disagree, without using same, old ammo.

I don't know, I just feel like I have every right to defend a character I feel to be valuable, about as many times as someone complains about them and hates on them (which is essentially everywhere, everytime...)
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Nearavex wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Disagreeing with your opinion = Ignoring problems? I don't think so.

Trucy is also nothing like Apollo's junior partner - hell, she seems to show even more experience than Apollo, which is exactly why it wouldn't work - like I said he'd be just there, as an underdog to Trucy and her father. Hell, it might even still be this way in some part, but at least the whole game doesn't look like this with Athena in it.


No but you don't like to discuss problems you give up too quickly I'd say to the point that you ARE ignoring problems.

You tend to show up say "STOP BASHING ATHENA I LIKE HER!" then back off real quick when people say "But we've got concerns." You don't make much of an attempt to alleviate those concerns, or persuade people otherwise, you don't really make a case or when you do and people say "actually I have a problem with your interpretation of events" you just go like "Well we'll disagree".

I suppose that could be fine and I'd let that slide normally, people have a right to their own opinions, except you keep starting these arguments again. You say "Lets just agree to disagree" but then when other people are talking about Athena again you come back and are like "STOP BASHING ATHENA I LIKE HER!" and the cycle begins again.

Well, I suppose I'm just not fond of taking the same points and repeating them over and over again. I present my argument, you present your own. But my argument is already there, presented. I feel like I answer these concerns, then you move on with exactly the same claims... so what am I supposed to do? Repeat these same responses to these same claims?

To me that'd be awfully dull and would look even more defensive than how you view it now, so I just state I disagree, without using same, old ammo.

I don't know, I just feel like I have every right to defend a character I feel to be valuable, about as many times as someone complains about them and hates on them (which is essentially everywhere, everytime...)


Yeah cept the way I see it you keep using the same ammo and this is the problem, you are being the aggressor in these situations but you don't bring new points. You are the first to let the matter end and you are the first to bring it up again.

In any case I presented a list of objective connections to the plot, Athena far outweighs Apollo, do you still maintain that the story was balanced for Athena and Apollo?
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I do, actually.

Athena takes up a large portion of 5-3 and 5-5. One of which resolves around her backstory and the second, she is a playable character in. Meanwhile, the rest is kinda the usual assistant stuff - she helps out, she has some dialogue with the playable character - nothing that makes her super amazing.

Klavier was never relevant. Klavier was always presented as a friendly character, but a weak rival - something not fitting with Dual Destinies's plot at all. He was always this prosecutor who actually helped the defense with the trial. And so he does in DD! He appears to help out.

You won't find me disagreeing that Clay could have appeared... but I still don't get how that has to do in any way with how "bad" Athena is. It's about as relevant to Athena as it is with the phantom, who is the final boss - since it leaves Apollo determined to avenge his friend. Hell that even proves my point about the 'main duo', since both Apollo and Athena have strong, emotional reasons to bring that man down.

Are you saying Phoenix and Apollo don't have a whole lot of connections of their own? 1-4, 3-1 and 3-5 directly connect to Phoenix's past, while Apollo meets his former idol (4-1), his sister (4-1/4-2), his mother (4-3) and his former, incarcerated boss (4-4) in every single chapter of GS4. That, and he's connected to the character in 5-4.

I don't see how Athena having a case related to her backstory make her a bad character.
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Even this couldn't be a get-mad-about-Athena-free Athena-free discuss-Athena-free zone?
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Hope no one minds if I squeeze in something first. (Rather, isn't this more on topic?)

Shadowsleuth wrote:
Hell, the entire point of the series was to show that the legal system is screwed up.

Well, I say it's more like to show "omg Japan's legal system is so skewed let's parody it beyond belief lol", but it could go either way.

Quote:
And again, the "feeling like himself" thing... I don't fully get that either. Sure it's nice to have the Phoenix we're all familiar with, but his time is done. We can't expect characters, much like people, to be the same forever.

It's not a question of whether or not he should change; it's a matter of how much he should change. Granted, I'm actually of the opinion that he was still the same as ever in GS4, flashback or not, but what changed was the perspective by which to view him - same for the flashback, which is basically a retelling of a story with a twist of dramatic irony.

Quote:
Quote:
That's exactly it - if Apollo just were there by himself, he would get completely overshadowed... or, if the story focused on Apollo, Phoenix's return would feel just trite.


I've already mentioned the first part, and Phoenix's return was never needed to begin with.

More specifically, he only needed to show up in one case of AJ, not the whole game. However, since AJ was so much about not Apollo, Phoenix at this point could not be shafted. If Apollo stuck with Kristoph, we wouldn't need to worry about Nick or Athena in the first place. Granted, we also wouldn't have Trucy, but the story would have taken a completely different twist.

And since Athena's so special - 'cause psychoanalysis in legal counseling was bound to make it in somehow - she'll still be around for AJ2 even if AJ didn't Phoenix everything.

Pierre wrote:
Also (while it's easy to forget), Apollo already had someone to be senior too. Trucy remember? His assistant from his own game? The one who got shafted so hard you'd be forgiven for forgetting her. He's ultimately the expert when she's on the scene, much like Maya was Nick's inferior. If you wanted senior-junior relationships yeah there already was one. That's pretty much the purpose of the assistant to create that role. All it would have taken in an Athena-less world where Trucy assisted Apollo in cases is one line from Nick before they go out on a case saying "Now you be good for Apollo, he's not THAT dull after all" and WHAM I've instantly got the Dad-Nick relationship and a bit of the snarky old Hobo-Nick and Apollo having a position of superiority over someone.

Not to beat this dead horse again, but never say Athena can be replaced by Trucy.

So what else would Trucy do should she have remained as the main assistant? Rather, what could she do to add to the game that wasn't already done in AJ? These are questions that are first brought up when developing a game, as they should be.
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Quote:
Athena takes up a large portion of 5-3 and 5-5. One of which resolves around her backstory and the second, she is a playable character in. Meanwhile, the rest is kinda the usual assistant stuff - she helps out, she has some dialogue with the playable character - nothing that makes her super amazing.


It's not an argument about super-amazingness just now, it's an argument about relevance. 5-5 is arguably the big plot finale with 5-4 being a minor attachment to it. She got the big finale and she appeared in most every other case. Even if it's as an assistant that's still a lot of Athena stretched across everyone. I'd have loved to have seen Nick and Apollo team up behind the bench, I think a lot of folks would have but we barely get any of that because Athena has to be there.

Quote:
Klavier was never relevant. Klavier was always presented as a friendly character, but a weak rival - something not fitting with Dual Destinies's plot at all. He was always this prosecutor who actually helped the defense with the trial. And so he does in DD! He appears to help out.


Well I guess that further provides a point, one less important connection to the plot that Apollo has. Though I'd say the definition of 'rival' might be a bit off. Is Edgeworth a bad rival once he starts searching for the truth instead of gunning for a guilty?

Quote:
You won't find me disagreeing that Clay could have appeared... but I still don't get how that has to do in any way with how "bad" Athena is. It's about as relevant to Athena as it is with the phantom, who is the final boss - since it leaves Apollo determined to avenge his friend. Hell that even proves my point about the 'main duo', since both Apollo and Athena have strong, emotional reasons to bring that man down.


And indeed they do both have a connection with the Phantom I suppose but Athena's is far far stronger having had a childhood confrontation with him and actually injured him. Also if Clay appeared then he wouldn't simply be a tool to connect Apollo to Athena. He could have had a dialogue with Apollo, could have made a meaningful impact on events. Pretty much: Clay doesn't support Apollo alone, other characters can be tied to Athena just like Nick has his own friends tied to him. Apollo doesn't have anyone he can talk with or bounce ideas off of that isn't a member of the agency except for Klavier. Apollo has no really important living characters connected to the finale compared to Athena who has a wealth of them.

Quote:
Are you saying Phoenix and Apollo don't have a whole lot of connections of their own? 1-4, 3-1 and 3-5 directly connect to Phoenix's past, while Apollo meets his former idol (4-1), his sister (4-1/4-2), his mother (4-3) and his former, incarcerated boss (4-4) in every single chapter of GS4. That, and he's connected to the character in 5-4.


No I'm not, that was never my intention.

We were discussing relevance in Dual Destinies however. Numbers 1-4? Irrelevant. Yes they obviously have connections but the point was Athena is infinitely more relevant and overshadows everyone. She's tied into the plot in far FAR more ways than any of the other characters. Your claim that "Yes they are balanced in terms of plot" doesn't hold up.

Quote:
I don't see how Athena having a case related to her backstory make her a bad character.


Well her backstory is terrible which makes her a bad character that's not what I was saying. I was saying overall in the importance of Dual Destinies...a game marketed as a "Phoenix Wright" game, featuring Apollo Justice, who was desperately crying out for some attention after his own game, ended up all about Athena. I mean I'm not gonna pull up figures but I'm pretty sure if we even look at their individual mechanics, mood matrix blows the others out of the water.
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Athena was in just as much promotional material as Phoenix (arguably more). You keep harping on the fact that Phoenix's name is on the box, but that wasn't a problem in T&T where the game was just as much Mia's. I actually remember seeing trailers and being concerned that Athena would take over the plot and that Apollo wouldn't even be in the game (plus, Phoenix is playable in more cases than Athena and Apollo...combined). It's not false advertising
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Athena was in just as much promotional material as Phoenix (arguably more). You keep harping on the fact that Phoenix's name is on the box, but that wasn't a problem in T&T where the game was just as much Mia's. I actually remember seeing trailers and being concerned that Athena would take over the plot and that Apollo wouldn't even be in the game (plus, Phoenix is playable in more cases than Athena and Apollo...combined). It's not false advertising


Mia was intrinsically connected to Phoenix's arc however, she's had little connection with anyone else really cept Maya and it was about Nick proving himself as Mia's successor to Godot.

Athena isn't particularly connected to Nick (she's just a new recruit) and she runs away with it. She literally comes out of NOWHERE and shunts other characters out of it.

Yeah it's false advertising, just like Apollo got screwed by Nick in his game, Athena screwed everyone in Dual Destinies.
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I still don't get why you're saying it's false advertising, though (again, Phoenix has the lion's share of the cases). Athena was never advertised in any trailer as having a special connection to Phoenix or advertised as taking a backseat to him. There was no advertising with her that suggested your problems with her character wouldn't exist. Just because she "screwed over everyone in Dual Destinies" doesn't mean she wasn't advertised as doing such
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Godot also comes out from nowhere, and yet here he is, being Mia's boyfriend, most of the plot resolving around him, with "Phoenix Wright" in the title.

Also, you keep saying Athena overshadows everyone, but I don't really see any support for it - all three appear in all cases, with Apollo being dumped pretty much only for the DLC case.
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Nearavex wrote:
Godot also comes out from nowhere, and yet here he is, being Mia's boyfriend, most of the plot resolving around him, with "Phoenix Wright" in the title.


Yeah but he's not the protagonist...so we don't deal with him most every second.
Otherwise you could make the same argument for Franziska or pretty much every new prosecutor. The prosecutor always gets a free bill of health to be involved with the plot.

JesusMonroe wrote:
I still don't get why you're saying it's false advertising, though (again, Phoenix has the lion's share of the cases). Athena was never advertised in any trailer as having a special connection to Phoenix or advertised as taking a backseat to him. There was no advertising with her that suggested your problems with her character wouldn't exist. Just because she "screwed over everyone in Dual Destinies" doesn't mean she wasn't advertised as doing such


I think you assign too much weight to how "Playable" someone is. It's about how relevant to the plot someone is and even then Athena appears an absurd amount of times.

Case 1: Nick/Athena, Athena Assisting.
Case 2: Apollo, Athena Assisting.
Case 3: Athena, Apollo Assisting.
Case 4: Apollo, Athena Assisting
Case 5: Nick, Athena (majority) and Apollo (minority) Assisting.
DLC: Nick, Athena Assisting

Athena has a substantial hand in every case whereas Nick shows up in court...three times out of 6 if my memory serves me correctly. So while he might appear in court, we are flooded with an abundance of Athena across the board.

As for whether Athena was advertised as an equal? Every trailer shows Phoenix first, Phoenix is the frontman, they love to show that slick cutscene of him throwing on the jacket and pinning the attorney's badge back on first. Whether or not they always show Athena, it's clear Nick is meant to be the star of the show with his return to court.
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Nearavex wrote:
I do, actually.

Athena takes up a large portion of 5-3 and 5-5. One of which resolves around her backstory and the second, she is a playable character in. Meanwhile, the rest is kinda the usual assistant stuff - she helps out, she has some dialogue with the playable character - nothing that makes her super amazing.

Klavier was never relevant. Klavier was always presented as a friendly character, but a weak rival - something not fitting with Dual Destinies's plot at all. He was always this prosecutor who actually helped the defense with the trial. And so he does in DD! He appears to help out.

You won't find me disagreeing that Clay could have appeared... but I still don't get how that has to do in any way with how "bad" Athena is. It's about as relevant to Athena as it is with the phantom, who is the final boss - since it leaves Apollo determined to avenge his friend. Hell that even proves my point about the 'main duo', since both Apollo and Athena have strong, emotional reasons to bring that man down.

Are you saying Phoenix and Apollo don't have a whole lot of connections of their own? 1-4, 3-1 and 3-5 directly connect to Phoenix's past, while Apollo meets his former idol (4-1), his sister (4-1/4-2), his mother (4-3) and his former, incarcerated boss (4-4) in every single chapter of GS4. That, and he's connected to the character in 5-4.

I don't see how Athena having a case related to her backstory make her a bad character.

You... kinda completely miss the point here. It's not about why the balance ended up the way it did, it's what the balance is.

For instance, about Klavier--yes, he was always a "friendly" rival. That's why he has the role in DD he does. However, the fact is that Klavier--Apollo's rival--shows up in a single case where the only time we get to "face off" against him is a scripted mock court segment with zero gameplay interaction, whereas Blackquill--Athena's rival--is the prosecutor we face off against for 4.5 cases in the game.

The points you make serve to justify Athena's gigantic role in the game, not argue that Athena's role wasn't larger than Apollo's.

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Not to beat this dead horse again, but never say Athena can be replaced by Trucy.

So what else would Trucy do should she have remained as the main assistant? Rather, what could she do to add to the game that wasn't already done in AJ? These are questions that are first brought up when developing a game, as they should be.

The same thing Maya did in GS2/3, or Kay did in GK2 8D

Eh, I don't have a great answer, but if GS5 was AJ2 and continued the Gramarye plotline, Trucy would've easily had the plot relevance needed to be included.

Also, people were talking about how Polly wouldn't really be a 'senior' to Trucy in the same way as Athena, especially since Trucy seemed to be better than Polly in AJ, but... I don't buy that. First, with the Gramarye plot, Polly could become a 'senior' to Trucy in a brother-sister relationship. And second, while Trucy may have helped Polly a ton in AJ, in GS5 Polly could've been shown as more competent than Trucy, which would've helped show a change and growth in his character as he gained experience from GS4 to GS5.
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Talking about Trucy as a potential assistant with new stuff...

How about a 'double perceive' feature? Where a villain has two separate tells and you need to watch for both at the same time? Or perhaps Apollo questions someone and watches them for a tell while Trucy attempts to spot a tell from an accomplice in the gallery?

Just spitballin'
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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Not to beat this dead horse again, but never say Athena can be replaced by Trucy.

So what else would Trucy do should she have remained as the main assistant? Rather, what could she do to add to the game that wasn't already done in AJ? These are questions that are first brought up when developing a game, as they should be.

The same thing Maya did in GS2/3, or Kay did in GK2 8D

And then Apollo gets to question his life up to now.

But really, Maya also had Pearly to chat with, so GS2/3 weren't so repetitive (not to mention, GK3 wasn't only with Nick). In GK2, though, Kay was just around because she wanted to be, and Gumshoe actually had much less of a role, albeit was still very important.

In fact, if we want to draw more parallels, we can draw a loose one with Gumshoe's role in GK2 to Apollo's role in this game. Shafted, but still very relevant.

Quote:
Eh, I don't have a great answer, but if GS5 was AJ2 and continued the Gramarye plotline, Trucy would've easily had the plot relevance needed to be included.

Oh, geez. It's not about those magicians, it's about Apollo's history and his relation to his profession. That's what he needs most at this point. (Heck, if his dad was actually brought back to life somehow, he wouldn't be part of the troupe either.) And that probably means Trucy still wouldn't get that much out of it until the end or something if Thalassa ever considers stopping by again.

This is what I was talking about regarding how GS6 will be like GS3.

Quote:
Also, people were talking about how Polly wouldn't really be a 'senior' to Trucy in the same way as Athena, especially since Trucy seemed to be better than Polly in AJ, but... I don't buy that. First, with the Gramarye plot, Polly could become a 'senior' to Trucy in a brother-sister relationship. And second, while Trucy may have helped Polly a ton in AJ, in GS5 Polly could've been shown as more competent than Trucy, which would've helped show a change and growth in his character as he gained experience from GS4 to GS5.

No, she's not a "senior" to him in any way except regarding how long she's been there. She's not a junior to Apollo either - at least, not yet. As far as they are concerned, they are friends and associates on equal levels, not brother or sister. There is a timing with this.

In fact, if Athena was introduced as a junior to Trucy, not as a lawyer but as a psychologist-in-training ('cause they're all in-training until they hit 22, AA rule of thumb), her role as an assistant will still be crucial to the game's story, but she won't be taking any cases herself, giving Apollo a little more room to muster up some rep against Blacky and Taka (unless Nick takes that case instead and the entire Themis Academy tapes the trial because the guy is a star). Heck, she or Trucy could be the secret weapon that help Apollo by holding back Taka from... no, wait, scratch that. Taka can't be stopped unless he wants to. Welp, with Perceive on hold, what to do? Mood Matrix.

No matter what, Athena will be staying. Or should I say, Widget will be staying. It seems to me that poor Trucy doesn't have much to do, then. (But I would have liked to see her free the hostages herself. Trucy Wright, Master Magician, at your service! Whee, sleight of hand and stuff.)

Pierre wrote:
Talking about Trucy as a potential assistant with new stuff...

How about a 'double perceive' feature? Where a villain has two separate tells and you need to watch for both at the same time? Or perhaps Apollo questions someone and watches them for a tell while Trucy attempts to spot a tell from an accomplice in the gallery?

Just spitballin'

Ooh, I like that second one, but it seems more of a plot point than an actual game mechanic. Not very often are crimes set up with accomplices.
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(But I would have liked to see her free the hostages herself. Trucy Wright, Master Magician, at your service! Whee, sleight of hand and stuff.)


Me too, totally thought she was capable of that too, especially after Phoenix made a funny comment about her amazing knife skills somewhere.

Quote:
Ooh, I like that second one, but it seems more of a plot point than an actual game mechanic. Not very often are crimes set up with accomplices.


Eh the mood matrix is hardly a game mechanic...I mean you can't fail it. Still would be an entertaining thing to try.
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Pierre wrote:
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(But I would have liked to see her free the hostages herself. Trucy Wright, Master Magician, at your service! Whee, sleight of hand and stuff.)


Me too, totally thought she was capable of that too, especially after Phoenix made a funny comment about her amazing knife skills somewhere.

When Nick got to speak with Trucy while she was being kidnapped, Trucy immediately went to giving Nick the important information she got as quickly and concisely as possible... While being kidnapped she didn't just sit around being helpless, and when she finally got to talk with Nick, she didn't waste any time. As much as I hate how small her role in the game was and how she was flanderized in 5-2, I still appreciate how she worked out in that one scene.
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Yup - I really liked the portrayal of her character in this game, even despite having a small role in it - Magic Panties or not, she was kept perfectly in-character and I'm looking forward to see her interaction with Apollo and Phoenix in GS6
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i guess you could say

they got Trucy Wright.
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Pierre wrote:
Quote:
Ooh, I like that second one, but it seems more of a plot point than an actual game mechanic. Not very often are crimes set up with accomplices.


Eh the mood matrix is hardly a game mechanic...I mean you can't fail it. Still would be an entertaining thing to try.

Technically, the mood matrix is integrated into the cross-exam mechanic, so at times, you can still fail it.

Of course, it'd be better if getting the wrong emotion or point of attention results in a penalty. The judge was especially nice in this game. Maybe someone ought to really piss him off so that they'd get the 9/10 double-penalty attack. Or maybe get a guilty verdict when they're not on trial. Or face off with the prosecution and shout Objection back and forth until the judge feels like he's on trial instead.

...Dang, I just realized now. Udgey wasn't as funny in this one as he used to be. He was still funny, but other than one moment in 5-5, I don't recall any moments where the humor revolved around him like it usually would.

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Pierre wrote:
Quote:
(But I would have liked to see her free the hostages herself. Trucy Wright, Master Magician, at your service! Whee, sleight of hand and stuff.)


Me too, totally thought she was capable of that too, especially after Phoenix made a funny comment about her amazing knife skills somewhere.

When Nick got to speak with Trucy while she was being kidnapped, Trucy immediately went to giving Nick the important information she got as quickly and concisely as possible... While being kidnapped she didn't just sit around being helpless, and when she finally got to talk with Nick, she didn't waste any time. As much as I hate how small her role in the game was and how she was flanderized in 5-2, I still appreciate how she worked out in that one scene.

Who knows, maybe it was Trucy who got everyone out after all. Was it said exactly who released the hostages, or that they were simply "released"?
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Nearavex wrote:
Yup - I really liked the portrayal of her character in this game, even despite having a small role in it - Magic Panties or not, she was kept perfectly in-character and I'm looking forward to see her interaction with Apollo and Phoenix in GS6


For that SCENE maybe. I was pretty furious at how they downgraded her to one gag everywhere else.

Also don't you have a lot more things to say at all the comments directed at you than this?

Dammit now I want a Die Hard parody starring Trucy
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Pierre wrote:
Also don't you have a lot more things to say at all the comments directed at you than this?

He doesn't have to respond if he doesn't want to :yogi:
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Welp, since I couldn't find the appropriate thread for it in the GS4 forum, I guess I'll just use this and push into GS5 territory as well.

I previously mentioned how unlike himself Phoenix had become in AJ, but on second thought, there's much more to the story than that. Taking another look through my blog project notes, I've come to see a recurring trend in the gradual but subtle shift between personalities of the different versions of the main character.

Simply put, Phoenix is more easily worked up and isn't always the brightest bulb among his peers. Naruhodo, on the other hand, is more likely to be a sly smartass, even when he doesn't need to be, and purposely revs up people's tempers to soothe his own, etc. In hindsight, he hasn't really changed that much by GS4, aside from being more accepting of things he missed out on before, but it feels a lot more obvious when comparing Phoenix to his NEET self. It wasn't nearly as noticeable back in GS1, but he was just a rookie in his first year then.

See where I'm going with this? By GS5, it's like the two have shifted again toward something more like Phoenix and less like Naruhodo. It could just be the change in writers opting for a different style, but time and again, I feel like these guys have taken some inspiration from the localized side of the franchise, even if just a tiny bit.

What do you guys think? Am I overthinking this? I mean, we are still talking about the same guy, just with different moods or something.
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There are differences between Phoenix's portrayal in English and Japanese version? It's the first I heard of something like this. What are they and in which situations exactly do they show?
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It's more of a cultural difference, really; moments like when he's commenting on Regina's odd perspectives on death, or on action shows for kids, or on Lotta in general... quite a few different, scattered situations.

On the other hand, you really do get to see some level of art-critic to him in the Japanese version at times that's all but neglected in the English one. Granted, for someone most famous for his pointing objections, the localized edition practically required him to act a little more true to his promotional arts, and all but a scarce few show him throwing out a vehement objection. What you see in promotion is quite unlike what you find in the character himself once you dig into the details. In a way, it's quite the artistic analogy between in-game and real life impressions.

I could technically build a case around how localization changes characters through, and basically none other than, character role language. In fact, that may be my next topic of discussion after I finish through 2-4 on my blog.

[Insert pic of Maggey saying "Yes!! Bluffing to the max!!" here]
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Hm. That's an interesting take. Art-Critic Phoenix is best Phoenix.
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I admit that when I first played DD, it was hard not to look at Phoenix and think he had moved backwards from how he was portrayed in AJ. Having said that I chalk it up more to the change in life circumstances than regressing Phoenix's character. He was disbarred just as he came into his element and spent more like as a professional poker player than he spent studying and practicing law combined. If Phoenix slips up a little in court time to time in DD, it feels only natural. He had been out of the game for so long.

Outside of the courtroom, he is still the most respected person in the office: the only character who could feasibly still come in and make fun of him without it feeling forced is an older Maya. Otherwise I feel Phoenix has ascended to a Mia-State of being. He has two lawyers who are his understudies now which allows him to act more like a guru outside the court.

It has to be said that Apollo is still the most put upon character but I think that's just character dynamic and the fact that he is the only male character aside from Phoenix himself in the office. But I agree with those here who say that Apollo was more fleshed out in DD than he was in his own game. My only critisim of DD in terms of character is the fact that we have been introduced and explored Athena's story all in one game where a lot of Apollo's has been left hanging. That makes me worry that Athena might be shoved to be background again much like Trucy was because they no longer really know what to do with her.
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Although DD isnt that good it was nice to see Phoenix back as a lawyer again
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I'd have to say that my favorite Phoenix quote came during the trial in 5-5

"Why must you keep pointing out every single FLAW?!?!?!"
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Phoenix in DD is prone to overreactions and general cheese, especially during court segments, but I think that goes for pretty much everyone. Same with the flanderization, resting on bluffs in Phoenix' case, but I tohught it was more downplayed here than in SoJ, if anything. I've seen a lot of people thinking he's too nervous and exaggerated in court but I personally never had a problem with that. And after all, he's starting again after an eight year break, before which he only had three years of experience. Plus the trials he gets always keeps him at the edge of his seat - I guess you just never really get used to that. But it is true that there is a slight discrepancy in how he has matured and become more level-headed during investigations and as an aid, only to turn into a bumbling mess hanging on through dumb luck the moment he starts lawyering. But to me it just feels very... Phoenix.
In DD I felt the developers tried to balance three sides of Phoenix: the bumbling, bluffing always-believe-in-your-clients lawyer, as seen in the trilogy; the chill father with secret agendas and trollish tendencies, as seen in AJ, and the wise caring mentor, new for DD. In my opinion they merged these sides of him well. Some of Hobonick is there, in humour and occasional comments and how he didn't bother to tell Apollo about going to Europe or anyone about his and Edgeworth'splans to free Simon and end the dark age of the law. I wouldn't have mind if he were more laid-back, though.
For all three playable characters I find the way they are portrayed while in their heads compared to when seen from someone else's perspective isn't always consistent, but I don't think this affects Phoenix to the point where it's unbelievable or makes him feel shattered. On the other hand I do feel like he's the character that is the most moldable to the writer's whims without getting too out of character, but here he turns out a bit basic and flat in his inner monologue. In the trilogy, Phoenix is an odd and quirky person, but in a rather subtle way, but if I understood correctly Takumi wrote his character more or less from the top of his head so that spontaneous Phoenix-ness might be hard to replicate.
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