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How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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I know some people really like this one, but I think it had some pretty serious problems, and aside from just problems I also had some things I just personally would've prefered to happen, that didn't.

First of all there's that whole Dark Age of The Law thing. According to the dialogue in this case it's false convictions, forgery and bad attorneys that cause it... that's not really false per se, but it's not too different than what we've heard before but just from that description that's fine, but once it goes into detail it falters. The presentation of this conflict of the teachers at Themis having bad influence is too one-sided and Means blatantly telling his students to "use any means necessary to get results", and people saying that Constance Courte "likes to say "The end is justified through proper means"" is just... it's dumb, that's what it is. The question becomes, could it be fixed with a simple rewrite or would the case need an overhaul?

A second issue I have is more a preference: Why the hell is Klavier NOT the rival for this case? Seriously, he had some pretty tough shit to deal with underneath his rockstar facade and prince-charming looks in AJ:AA with Kristoph and all, and I think people wanted to see a bit more angst come out of that, but it didn't. In 5-3 he's actually there, he has his animations and an Objection soundclip, his friggin mentor is killed and I could've imagined him being the prosecutor and wrongly accusing Juniper out of angst that his mentor was killed. He'd make hasty accusations and it would make having him as the rival more interesting than Blackquill.

I mean, imagine if 5-S was not a DLC but in the game right after case 2. It really wouldn't hurt not to have BQ in 5-3 especially since Athena facing him does not explore the fact that it's their first time standing face to face
Spoiler:
since that incident


What would you have changed if you could?
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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The Great Golden Fox would have swooped in and dropkicked Athena out of the story until the last case.

The whole Dark Age of the law thing could have been done much better?

Athena would have had some guilt or even hesitation about revealing the secret about Robin considering the sensitive nature of that secret?

But it was OK overall.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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If there were three things i could change in this case one would be make Aristotle less obvious as a villain, have Klavier be the prosecutor for the case and have Robin's backstory actually make sense.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Spoiler:
the thing about Hugh being 25 an all I mean it makes sense but the reasoning behind him being 25 is because you see the back of his head in the background of a picture driving a crane. I mean it shows you really have to be paying attention and be actively envolved in what's happening, which i actually like about the ace attorney games but the back of his head in a crane really capcom. Could you have done it in a better way that's not so....for lack of a term,bottom of the barrel
but that's just me I just think it's a odd way to have a clue show up but then again it is the ace attorney series were talking about and using logic and those little details to uncover things are what make the series special :will:
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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CoolFencer wrote:
Spoiler:
the thing about Hugh being 25 an all I mean it makes sense but the reasoning behind him being 25 is because you see the back of his head in the background of a picture driving a crane. I mean it shows you really have to be paying attention and be actively envolved in what's happening, which i actually like about the ace attorney games but the back of his head in a crane really capcom. Could you have done it in a better way that's not so....for lack of a term,bottom of the barrel
but that's just me I just think it's a odd way to have a clue show up but then again it is the ace attorney series were talking about and using logic and those little details to uncover things are what make the series special :will:


I actually really liked that clue, great example of "hiding in plain sight" and really effective if you didn't spot it immediately.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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I disagree; I think Blackquill needed to be the the prosecutor for this case. He's testing Athena but he also helps her out when she freezes up at the end.

Considering that Klavier appeared to have a significant role in the game, since he gets his own voice and courtroom sprites, I understand why some want him as the prosecutor for a case in DD. I can't think of one that he can fit into. Maybe Turnabout Reclaimed?

My biggest problem with Turnabout Academy, though, is the first trial. It's just way too cringy, for lack of a better word (maybe that's the point, since Athena's new). There's a fine line between when a trial is funny because it's ridiculous, and when it's bad because it's ridiculous. I think it crossed the line with the "You're a goner!" bluff. I think it's because we didn't get to hear the recording for ourselves (it probably would have been poorly voice acted, though), so we have to take Athena's word for it.

I'm not sure about a solution for the tape, though. We need it, because finding out its fake is a huge development.

So the first trial was a wreck but things get better from there, especially the second trial.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Because Dual Destinies was the first game(well, second after PW vs PL) that I got to know(not play though) I didn't really have much critism towards it. Klavier was to me kinda cool and helpful character that I'd liked to see more. After getting to know him through fics and AJ, I agree with you guys that it would've been great to have him prosecute because... since when in AA games there have been professionalism put ahead of personal feelings as long as the truth is found? I might've phrased that badly but seriously if look at the previous games... Phoenix is constantly defending his friends(who admittedly are innocent) and in AJ Klavier prosecutes in Turnabout Serenade even though he had a lot of personal baggage towards the case(and what the hell they let Daryan investigate in the first place, he wasn't in his official capability in there but as a rock star, let Ema do her job dammit). To me it feels like Simon was doing the job only because he wanted to face Athena in court...

You are right about making professor Means a bit... more obvious instead of blaming Hugh and Robin and Myriam(?) each before finding out the real culprit to point fingers at.

Anime cutscenes regarding this case... were anime. and didn't really fit the overall atmosphere. Especially the English version. "Thena..." "Junie, it's great to hear you use that name. (:D)" Seriously! That's what you say when your friend is being dragged away.

All in all I think Athena should've been more of a co-council in this game. Like Maya has been and Ema assisted in 1-5 but with the Mood Matrix ability. She didn't get much character development aside from the obvious growing up during the seven years between UR-1 and the cases in the game. And her situation was different to Apollo who was thrown into his first trial quite abruptly in the previous game or Phoenix who get the cases dropped on him every since Mia's death. The both males didn't... they didn't have a proper mentor in the games. Mia was there yeah to have helpful tips but mostly Phoenix was on his own. Apollo in the other hand was at the beginning mentored by Kristoph Gavin but we don't know how much or long and then the Coolest Attorney of West is in jail and Apollo without a job. And even when he takes up the job at Wright Talent Agency, Phoenix isn't much help to him with his cryptic words and dark looks. Apollo pretty much spends the entirety of the game with "WTF is going on now" and is constantly embarrased whenever he is making an objection.(it was a relief when in the last case Apollo was more confident when against Klavier and his growth as a chatacter was visibly seen). That's why I hoped that Athena had been handled a bit differently. She is new. And yeah, she studied in Europe and yeah, she is sort of genius... But she lacks experience both in life and in courtroom. At least Apollo was properly adult in his game while she is... barely legal.

So while I understand that she wants to defend Juniper... She shouldn't. She is too emotionally invested and inexperienced. The case is literally her second one ever.
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
If there were three things i could change in this case one would be make Aristotle less obvious as a villain, have Klavier be the prosecutor for the case and have Robin's backstory actually make sense.


The poor choice of words when it comes to Means' writing and people's reactions to him is something I would change. First of all, instead of making Athena constantly remark how "scary" his smile is, I'd just make her be more casual like "Ew, that grin, though!"

I'd probably also make Means address his own philosophy with some more depth, e.g. instead of constantly talking about how results is the only thing that matters and proactively encourage cheating, you could make him talk about how he wants his students to do well in the system, and reluctantly mention that cheating is a viable option if it means you'll better your reputation.

The characters including Means should also talk more about the implications of the things that supposedly are the embodiement of the Dark Age of The Law. I'd like, as part of Klavier to be the prosecutor to reflect on Nick's disbarment and reaquiring of his profession.

Also, I'd like a little moment where at the beginning of Day 1 trial, The Judge would be slightly late and then say:

Judge: "I thought it was quite humbling... I met a reporter -- you know, with tape-recorder and microphone and all! -- and she wanted to ask me some questions about my job and opinion of the legal world. I offhandedly mentioned I was working directly with the Themis Law Academy on a case, Hoh, hoh!"

Apollo: "Huh, I guess the Judge gets his due credit every once in a while."

Athena: "(...I guess you didn't mention you're actually handling a murder between members of the institution, did you?)"

and then on Day 2 it would turn out an article has been posted, negatively spinning what the judge told the reporter, effectively slandering the courts, which ties into Means's guilt, because it shows what people like him do to the reputation of law.

Also, Means's motive should be vastly deepened. I don't know how, but something not as banal as "I bribed my students because I'm EVIL!"
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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The best explanation Means gives for his philosophy is the fist time he brings it up. The conversation between him and Athena goes something like this:

Means: You believe in Juniper's innocence, do you not?
Athena: Of course I do! Junie wouldn't hurt a fly!
Means: Precisely. We have justice on our side. Now all we need are results.

Means shows just how un-subtle the writing in this game is, but I think his explanation is actually really good. He's even subtly trying to "convert" Athena.
"Apollo, you have, like, three different backstories. Who even are you?!"
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
The Great Golden Fox would have swooped in and dropkicked Athena out of the story until the last case.


This guy gets it.

Also finally people realized how much better it would've been if Klavier was the prosecutor for that case.

And they should've had Hugh be the actual murderer.

At least it had my favorite anime segment to make fun of.
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Mister Gruel wrote:
At least it had my favorite anime segment to make fun of.

That being... the segment about friendship, and Hugh 'crying'?
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Nurio wrote:
Mister Gruel wrote:
At least it had my favorite anime segment to make fun of.

That being... the segment about friendship, and Hugh 'crying'?

Of course.
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Let's link it for hilarity's sake
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Nurio wrote:


>mfw

Spoiler:
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Honestly, what I would do is change some instances of the music. I didn't really like how "Dark Age of the Law" was used for Juniper's confession and Hugh's "perfect crime", and thought that the Confess the Truth theme would work better.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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> Change the voice acting. Especially Hugh's "crying", they should've made that more subtle to fit in with his condescending personality, not whatever that was. Also, make Klavier have that fake German accent he had in AJ. Fulbright's deep voice doesn't really fit his energetic personality either.

> Make the "The ends justify the memes means" much more subtle.

> Make the "Dank Dark Age of Law" much more subtle.

> Klavier or Apollo should have noted that Juniper's costume was basically Lamirior's. Maybe have them say something like, "Huh, I've seen that before. It was the outfit of a foreign singer, I beleive. What was her name again?" This isn't major but it urked me.

> Make Professor Means being the murderer less obvious.

> I agree with Pierre when he says Athena needs to feel more remorseful post revealing Newman's secret.

> Juniper needs more personality.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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I think that most of the major elements should be kept. In order to get Athena involved, Juniper should be the defendant. Blackquill needs to be the prosecutor, because the relationship between Athena and him is important.

I would keep the friendship aspect, but make it less cheesy. It works because Athena can sense something wrong in the friendship between the three students, but Apollo cannot. In the first investigation, he wonders why Athena is looking into their relationships because he doesn't sense anything odd.

As for Means, I think his motive should have been linked to an old case of his. He could be like Hammond: won a trial with an underhanded (or illegal) tactic, and now he teaches the students to do the same. He probably did, but that isn't relevant with how this case turned out. Anyway, somebody finds out about how he won his trials and he kills them for it.

I say this because I think the first Ace Attorney did a better job portraying the "Dark Age of the Law." There were good defense attorneys - Mia, Phoenix, and Gregory - and a bad defense attorney - Hammond. Hammond was an example of winning by any means compared to believing in the client. Means is sort of like this, but the focus is on him as a professor rather than as a lawyer.
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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title

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Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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1) Leave out the friendship scene or do it differently
2) Leave out the "secret" about Robin it was completely pointless and had nothing to do with story whatsoever
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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This case is all over the place whenever I try to do a rankings list...

As someone else who played DD before AJ, I think I would actually like this less if Klavier was the prosecutor.

Don't get me wrong, I do also kinda wish he'd had a bigger role in DD, but the thing is as DD didn't have 'free investigations' the investigations kinda lived or died by their dialogue and the whole Athena, Apollo, and Klavier dynamic in this case is glorious. You've got Apollo at his most snarkiest and the stuff about the shattered statues still cracks me up. Honestly if I need cheering up or just feel like messing about I invariably load the investigation sections from 5-3. In contrast other cases just irritate me now I know you can't do the free investigation (I hadn't played that much of the other games at this point. The order I played cases the first time round is kinda complicated lol) - like I really want to know what people's reactions would have been to some of the weird stuff in 5-2 like that umbrella that is behind Trucy near the beginning...

Anyway, whenever I do load 5-3's investigation section, I look back at my rankings list and wonder why it is so low down... and then I play the trial sections again.

Honestly if there's any one case in the games that I can't make my mind up on its this one. :udgey:


So to answer the threads question: I need to work out where it stands in my head before deciding what needs to be changed, though right now I think it has something to do with trial day 1.
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Spoiler: Kinda spoilers for 5-4, 5-5, 4-4
Personally I don't see any reason for Klavier to have been the prosecutor here. The game needed to establish Blackquill as a character, or else his desperation in 5-4 would've gone overlooked completely. If he had just been in 5-2, no one would really see the difference in his prosecuting tactics, which was one of the main factors in the final two cases. Klavier would've worked much better as the prosecutor for Reclaimed, especially since it's Phoenix's first trial since he was disbarred by, well, Klavier.
Re: How would you make 5-3 better if you could?Topic%20Title
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Remove Klavier as he was kinda pointless,replace Means with a more eloquent and subtle villain with a good motive and a sensible design;make some stuff that you uncover during the investigation be uncovered during the trial;make Myriam funny;make the outside of the art room actually examinable;remove the judge course altogether;remove the references to 4-3 as they're useless without Klavier anyway;and make the scene where Hugh cries even worse in terms of voice acting.

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