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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
Wait... Who else do we have besides those two? :eh?:

(That we can actually really attribute anything to.)

Yamazaki never writes his games alone; he's the leader of the writing team, but different people work in different episodes. It's hard pointing at who wrote what though, as they seldom say it out loud. Former planner Nakamura worked on GK2-3, and Eguchi worked on at least 6-4 (and I suspect also the DLC case, as he wrote the blog entry introducing the DLC case).
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Really? He also wrote the DLC case? That's really crazy to me,considering I think the opposite of that and 6-4 in terms on writing. Lol
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Imo, this so-called "regression" is nothing more than a classic example of writer's block. Takumi had good reason to not keep writing Phoenix into Apollo's game at first. In an interview after DD was released, he admitted that it may not have been the direction he expected, but it was a good idea to let other writers take the helm. I believe this was the first sign that he's come to run dry with Phoenix's character.

With Yamazaki and the others, they at least had other ideas to try with the old cast, but if a lot of them were old staff members from back then, it's no surprise to see a lot of focus on nostalgic values. Yamazaki is one of those old members. Eshiro is too.

By now, I think where the line between in and out of character has been muddied so much that it doesn't really matter anymore. You don't have to like it, but you should at least consider it.


I don't think that it's writer's block. It's either laziness or a fear of writing an old character (as in, maybe they have all these ideas of where they want the characters to go, but they don't want to experiment for fear of angering the fans).

I'm not sure I even consider anyone OOC (outside of the AAI games)... the problem is that they're perfectly in character... for their characters of 10 years ago. I expect some qualities to linger, but there's zero balance between the characters of the original AA trilogy, and the characters they're supposed to be today. It's all hot or cold, and very confusing.
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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Ash wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Wait... Who else do we have besides those two? :eh?:

(That we can actually really attribute anything to.)

Yamazaki never writes his games alone; he's the leader of the writing team, but different people work in different episodes. It's hard pointing at who wrote what though, as they seldom say it out loud. Former planner Nakamura worked on GK2-3, and Eguchi worked on at least 6-4 (and I suspect also the DLC case, as he wrote the blog entry introducing the DLC case).

Which is why I included the parenthetical... I know that Yamazaki doesn't do the games alone, but if we don't know who worked on what, I dunno how we're supposed to rank the scenario writers, or say that Yamazaki is the second-best after Takumi. Maybe it'd be fairer to compare Takumi with the 'Yamazaki team' instead of Yamazaki, but idk.
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Jean Descole wrote:
I don't think that it's writer's block. It's either laziness or a fear of writing an old character (as in, maybe they have all these ideas of where they want the characters to go, but they don't want to experiment for fear of angering the fans).

I'm not sure I even consider anyone OOC (outside of the AAI games)... the problem is that they're perfectly in character... for their characters of 10 years ago. I expect some qualities to linger, but there's zero balance between the characters of the original AA trilogy, and the characters they're supposed to be today. It's all hot or cold, and very confusing.

I wouldn't say they don't dare experiment since SoJ was very much experimental. It's quite a different take on classic Ace Attorney, which tends to be a little more down to earth.

The problem is, it also seeps into hammy territory a lot. Certainly, it's not new. It's been more and more so since the first game (not counting RftA). I had the same issues with the style in the AAI games, as much as I enjoyed them all. You're right that there doesn't seem to be a good balance between what's static and what's dynamic. It works for the most part, but where it doesn't, it's quite jarring.

Then again, I blame how there are huge missing gaps in the story between games. This series did not use time skips very well. In other series where it's done better, there is most definitely major growth. But AA runs on a timeline where events are scattered and it's easy to run into inconsistencies. Even now some fans still argue the correct years of the AJ trilogy.

I could also attribute a lack of foresight on the writers' part, but it's a little too late to retcon the canon for a reboot, unless their choice of "reboot" is to start a new story altogether.
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If I can be blunt, I think a good portion of this fanbase is far too unrealistic when it comes to expectations of character's maturity, to the point that it's beyond what we would hold real life people to. As someone who's spent a couple of summers working in the legal field (one at a law office, the other in a courthouse), I can assure you that getting older and more experienced in your profession does not make you immune, or even significantly diminish the frequency of, stupid mistakes. Becoming the Master of Khu'rain does not make Maya suddenly drastically more careful, to the point where it's a serious break in character for her to not notice a car as she crosses the street or spill blood on a piece of paper.

I think the problem here is that we are conflating character consistency and skill consistency. Character consistency is how one's personality changes from game to game. Skill consistency (admittedly a term I've just made up) would be how error prone the character is. And the issue with skill consistency is that no one ever reaches (or comes close) to total error immunity.

Allow me to cite a personal example; this summer, I interned under a circuit judge who has been in the legal profession for over three decades. He's been a judge for ten years. And yet, on multiple occasions over my internship, he would forget things, such as important papers, the occasional meeting, and on one particularly humorous incident, the fact that a trial had been cancelled, which left him showing up to the courthouse with no one there. These mistakes don't make him a bad judge. I didn't look at these mistakes and go "Boy, this judge must not have matured at all since he started off." Just because you have learned more and your character has developed over time, does not mean that you are immune, or even noticeably less likely, to just screw up on the simple stuff.

Now, if a real life judge makes mistakes like that, why is it so hard to believe that a person who literally has not been involved in an investigation (outside of being a defendant once) in 9 years would screw up and spill blood on some paper? Or that same person, who (judging from Khu'rain's relative level of technology), probably hasn't seen a car in two years, could simply have a brain fart and do something stupid trying to slow a card down? Or, to cite another commonly referenced example, is it so unbelievable that Phoenix, whose courtroom experience over 8 years has been one short stint as an impromptu co-council for a case he had already figured out, would struggle somewhat in his return?

My point in all of this is that, had these been mistakes made by people in real life, we would probably say to ourselves "Oh, that person's having a bad day," or, more realistically, "Oh, that person's been away/disbarred for a long time, they'll take some time to get back on their feet." We would never hold them to these...quite frankly, ridiculous standards of consistency that we as a community seem to have for fictional characters. People are not static beings; they consistently change. Some days, you'll be on top of the world, and others you'll make enough mistakes to feel like you haven't learned anything since you were born. And that spectrum is good; it's what makes us dynamic. Having fictional characters reflect that is also good, because it makes them closer to reality as well. If your character is perfectly competent, or always clumsy, then chances are they're a poorly written character.
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While I agree with the points about being skilled in a field doesn't correlate to skills in other fields or overall personality and maturity, I think the problem people have with the notebook incident (which I have already defended since I found it hilarious) is less that they got blood on it and more that it happened because they were fighting over it, trying to pull it from each other like two children fighting over a toy or the last piece of candy. I loved it because it was so childish of them, but I can see why people would be annoyed with it, and they would probably cringe seeing two adults behaving like that in real life as well.
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Quote:
on one particularly humorous incident, the fact that a trial had been cancelled, which left him showing up to the courthouse with no one there.

Hahaha. Sounds just like Udgey.

BlarghMan, I figure you aren't referring to me when you posted above, but I'll reply - not that I disagree on anything, but just to clarify a few things for everyone. They may sound obvious, but hear me out.

1. It's well understandable that people hold more ideal/extreme judgment on works of fiction because unlike in real life, there are many factors to writing that can be controlled and idealized. Character development is definitely among them. That being said, it's not "good" or "bad" writing if a character changes or doesn't. That's not a criteria that should be included in ratings or reviews, though it often is anyway. These changes only change what kind of character they become, not whether they deserve it or whether it's better/worse for them.

2. Time gaps in works of fiction are merely a tool of writing. If it's convenient to distance the audience away from something, then use it. What happens as a result is then freed up to speculation. If the result upsets or disappoints some people, that's a good thing because it also means it upsets or disappoints less people than most.

That this series didn't use time skips well is my opinion, but I say so because it could have been utilized in a much more effective way than it has been, especially that there hasn't been much distance between the fans for the first trilogy and those for the second.

3. Different societies have differing views on how adulthood should be depicted. I personally prefer a more open-ended view on it that incorporates "childhood" as well. No matter who, everyone will always has some characteristic or personality trait they retain from childhood. While saying "adults are just bigger kids" would be a vast oversimplification, it has some truth to it. What a grown man and woman "should" be doing, as opposed to what they "would" do or have been doing, is entirely subjective.

Imo, seeing two adults wrestle over a book they want to read is no less ordinary than seeing two adults arguing in a line about who gets to have their cup of joe first. Childish? Yes, absolutely. Unrealistic? No. Cringy? It's up to you. (It is cringy to me, though.)

So let us all relax and appreciate the fact that Edgeworth's car has excellent brakes.

On that note, it could easily have been the case that Maya was hit after all, but it wouldn't affect the story anyway because it was just a gag scene. She could do as Nick did and shrug off getting hit by a car, leaving the car in worse shape than her. Edgeworth wouldn't be happy, but everyone would be relieved that Maya's training also helped her physical build.
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Last edited by Rubia Ryu the Royal on Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
On that note, it could easily have been the case that Maya was hit after all, but it wouldn't affect the story anyway because it was just a gag scene. She could do as Nick did and shrug off getting hit by a car, leaving the car in worse shape than her. Edgeworth wouldn't be happy, but everyone would be relieved that Maya's training also helped her physical build.


Honestly, that doesn't seem too strange for Maya...
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I have a shocking theory regarding the death of Selena Sprocket. Could it be that the true killer of Selena was in fact...
Spoiler:
...Pierce Nichody? Remember the breakdown of Pierce Nichody at the end of trial 2: ( https://youtu.be/LXDCryHZ3Hg?t=679 ). His breakdown is a flashback to his last moments as a surgeon before Selena died. Take a good look at what he says here: "Oh, no! I cut the artery! This stupid thing!". A cut into the artery is definitely lethal and it is no surprise that Selena died just a few seconds later. Without the cut into the artery I think Selena would have (most likely) survived. In the end Selena´s death wasn´t Sorin´s fault, it was Pierce who caused the fatal bleeding by cutting into her artery. It wasn´t deliberate murder, but at least involuntary manslaughter due to stress and an anxiety attack.
Plottwist omg :ack:

Last edited by AchtungBaby on Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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That seems somewhat plausible,impressively.

Spoiler:
though I'm not sure if it was supposed to be 100% like what actually happened during the surgery,but at least neat analysis


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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title

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AchtungBaby wrote:
I have a shocking theroy regarding the death of Selena Sprocket. Could it be that the true killer of Selena was in fact...
Spoiler:
...Pierce Nichody? Remember the breakdown of Pierce Nichody at the end of trial 2: ( https://youtu.be/LXDCryHZ3Hg?t=679 ). His breakdown is a flashback to his last moments as a surgeon before Selena died. Take a good look at what he says here: "Oh, no! I cut the artery! This stupid thing!". A cut into the artery is definitely lethal and it is no surprise that Selena died just a few seconds later. Without the cut into the artery I think Selena would have (most likely) survived. In the end Selena´s death wasn´t Sorin´s fault, it was Pierce who caused the fatal bleeding by cutting into her artery. It wasn´t deliberate murder, but at least involuntary manslaughter due to stress and an anxiety attack.
Plottwist omg :ack:

Ignoring the fact that
Spoiler:
only Pierce considered it Sorin's fault because Selena wanted Sorin to be saved first, and of course Pierce would do what his fiance would want, I'd say her death was more a result of him rushing to save her after he wrapped up with Sorin, since he wanted to save both.It's similar to Walking Dead: Season One, in a way. You can choose to save Duck first, and successfully do so, but in a hurry to save Shaun, he ended up dying anyways. Sorry if this is just restating what you said, I'm horrible at making points effectively. :basil:

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I think it's possible but...
Spoiler:
I think it seems more likely to me that it was just because she was too far gone by the time he finished up on Sorin. He didn't seem to blame himself at all for being incapable, the focus of his resentment was entirely on Sorin and I don't think he would've enacted his plan if he himself were partially to blame. Maybe his ego was too big to accept that fact but it definitely knocks down a few sympathy points
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I think it's possible but...
Spoiler:
I think it seems more likely to me that it was just because she was too far gone by the time he finished up on Sorin. He didn't seem to blame himself at all for being incapable, the focus of his resentment was entirely on Sorin and I don't think he would've enacted his plan if he himself were partially to blame. Maybe his ego was too big to accept that fact but it definitely knocks down a few sympathy points


Im pretty sure she was too far gone, considering the fact...

Spoiler:
... Pierce said during his breakdown 'If I only I had treated her first!'. This also couples with the last words he heard from her, being 'Please save Sorin.'. I'm pretty sure Selena asked Pierce to perform surgery on Sorin first, but it was too late by the time Pierce was done.
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KirbySage18 wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think it's possible but...
Spoiler:
I think it seems more likely to me that it was just because she was too far gone by the time he finished up on Sorin. He didn't seem to blame himself at all for being incapable, the focus of his resentment was entirely on Sorin and I don't think he would've enacted his plan if he himself were partially to blame. Maybe his ego was too big to accept that fact but it definitely knocks down a few sympathy points


Im pretty sure she was too far gone, considering the fact...

Spoiler:
... Pierce said during his breakdown 'If I only I had treated her first!'. This also couples with the last words he heard from her, being 'Please save Sorin.'. I'm pretty sure Selena asked Pierce to perform surgery on Sorin first, but it was too late by the time Pierce was done.


Spoiler:
Honestly, I'm more surprised that they left a dying patient in the hospital with no surgeon. Surely Nichody wasn't the only one there, so did the rest of the hospital just decide "Eh, he chose the guy. Just let the girl die."?
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Spoiler: to the above
Possibly the rest were all occupied with their own patients?

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^ The manga/drama Say Hello to Black Jack is very informative on the blind spots in medical care in hospitals in Japan. If I remember correctly, the first arc of the series portrays precisely why the events as told in the DLC case are quite realistic.
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Ash wrote:
^ The manga/drama Say Hello to Black Jack is very informative on the blind spots in medical care in hospitals in Japan. If I remember correctly, the first arc of the series portrays precisely why the events as told in the DLC case are quite realistic.


Buy it today 50% off!

Jokes aside, yeah, I can see that happening. But, I still am going to go with the most likely assumption in my opinion :sillytrucy:.
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Thanks for all your replies!
Spoiler:
Apollo4Justice wrote:
Ignoring the fact that only Pierce considered it Sorin's fault because Selena wanted Sorin to be saved first, and of course Pierce would do what his fiance would want, I'd say her death was more a result of him rushing to save her after he wrapped up with Sorin, since he wanted to save both.It's similar to Walking Dead: Season One, in a way. You can choose to save Duck first, and successfully do so, but in a hurry to save Shaun, he ended up dying anyways. Sorry if this is just restating what you said, I'm horrible at making points effectively. :basil:

You are right, it was an accident and unfortunately we don´t know much about it (was Sorin partially to blame (excessive speed?)?, was another car involved or did he crash against something else?). But nevertheless it was Sorin who was driving, he still suffers a lot and probably his conscience still pricks him because of this fact: Just as a reminder, even Sorin himself stated: "I´m the one who killed my sister... To protect my areer and my future, my father made DUmas take the blame" and I am sure he still suffers a lot - it would be somewhat relieving for Sorin to know that his accident wasn´t the main cause of his sisters death.
Of course Pierce didn´t have bad intentions and tried to save her. But still, if it´s true that he cut her artery and she died a few moments later (as seen in the breakdown), then it is justified to say it was his mistake despite all the tragic circumstances. One wrong move can cost a life - this is the risk and responsibility a surgeon has to bear, not only in the videogame world, also in the real world.

KirbySage18 wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think it's possible but...
I think it seems more likely to me that it was just because she was too far gone by the time he finished up on Sorin. He didn't seem to blame himself at all for being incapable, the focus of his resentment was entirely on Sorin and I don't think he would've enacted his plan if he himself were partially to blame. Maybe his ego was too big to accept that fact but it definitely knocks down a few sympathy points

Im pretty sure she was too far gone, considering the fact... ...Pierce said during his breakdown 'If I only I had treated her first!'. This also couples with the last words he heard from her, being 'Please save Sorin.'. I'm pretty sure Selena asked Pierce to perform surgery on Sorin first, but it was too late by the time Pierce was done.

Yet (referring to the flashback during his breakdown), Selena still lived upon the time Pierce started treating her. It was only after the cut into the artery that her cardiac rhythm went out of control and eventually stopped entirely. It is true that he granted Selena´s last wish and helped Sorin first (despite his injuries being not as severe Selena´s). Probably he realized that if he treated Selena first, he would have had more time and thus he wouldn´t have made that fatal blunder. Maybe he just couldn´t bear that it was himself in the end who ended Selena´s life, he was incapable of accepting his own mistake and he needed someone to blame everything on. And seriously, we can´t even blame Pierce for being devastated after this incident - how unfair must it feel for him: he wanted to save his fiancee, but ended up saving Sorin (the man who was probably the cause of the car accident) and he accidentally delivered the final deathblow to his beloved one and only. Additionally Pierce then felt like Sorin took the most important things away that Selena and Pierce should have experienced themselves: the presidency of the Sprocket Aviation and the marriage ceremony. He couldn´t let go of all the grudge and feeling of unfairness beared in his heart and blamed everything on the man who was (in Pierce´s view) the root cause of everything. Probably Pierce wasn´t an evil person before, however the accident and his own mistake changed his entire personality, the more days passed the more his heart began to fill with hatred, despair and resentment until he finally contrived the gruesome plan.

At least this is my interpretation of events, I love speculating about unresolved issues.
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Bad Player wrote:
Ash wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Wait... Who else do we have besides those two? :eh?:

(That we can actually really attribute anything to.)

Yamazaki never writes his games alone; he's the leader of the writing team, but different people work in different episodes. It's hard pointing at who wrote what though, as they seldom say it out loud. Former planner Nakamura worked on GK2-3, and Eguchi worked on at least 6-4 (and I suspect also the DLC case, as he wrote the blog entry introducing the DLC case).

Which is why I included the parenthetical... I know that Yamazaki doesn't do the games alone, but if we don't know who worked on what, I dunno how we're supposed to rank the scenario writers, or say that Yamazaki is the second-best after Takumi. Maybe it'd be fairer to compare Takumi with the 'Yamazaki team' instead of Yamazaki, but idk.

Having played all the Yamazaki games released so far in english I feel pretty confident in saying that I have somewhat picked up on the various writers and their styles. I hope I'm not off base to assume that they mostly let the same writer across AAI2-SoJ write the third case (I know some of them left and some came in from game to game) and then Yamazaki usually handles the final case but I guess they also cross over but I'm sure there is still a main writer per case for the most part aside from Yamazaki's directive of "case 3 has to be on a school to showcase THIS theme!". And as far as I can tell they have 1 writer who is the funny guy, one who is very elaborate and Yamazaki who is the unfiltered director. I've just noticed how usually case 3 has a fairly plodded pacing and drab dialogue but it's not exactly bad dialogue and the tone is consistent but you get the sense that it's just written by some super patient writer taking their time and in the end the plot is quite decent just not overly exciting in terms of entertainment-factor. Then there's the funny guy who never goes too deep with the stories but there's good conversational banter and some pretty sharply written characters and then there's Yamazaki who usually hits the highest point of intrigue at some point in his case but then he shifts track and derails the case with something insane... which then somehow still ends up driving the case home in some fashion, just not in a way that makes the whole thing come together as if every plot-element was part of the same current, crescendoing towards a climax.

Spoiler: SoJ
I feel that because particularly in SoJ I felt there was some retread of the overall quality DD had when it came to various cases. The first case was one of the most sharply-written in terms of dialogue and lol-worthy moments and a pretty decent case for something that small, case 2 had some cool characters but kind of a slow plot, case 3 was unfunny and really slow but not bad, case 4 was short and fine, and then case 5 was a bit of everything but strangely unfocused in terms of plot-elements and themes. It was the same weird mishmash of plot-devices as in DD where you had tonally clashing elements like the Samurai-themed stuff, psychology and... space(?) in DD and in SoJ it was sacred shrines and military-copter controlled by a lonely girl and an almost war-like rebellion plot, not to mention the whole father-son stuff with Apollo. I just get the impression, all the time, that Yamazaki has a lot of ideas and he can't pick the good ones apart from the bad ones to form a more coherent narrative in terms of tone and direction... and usually some of his inspiration also comes from earlier games so he ends up creating similar plot-points that don't work as well in the context of the current story's situation.

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Murderous Painter

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Yeah,I did notice that last part.
Spoiler: 6-2
Take Magnifi's super secret diary,for example. First of all,we already know Magnifi had his own diary from 4-4, so this is redundant. Secondly,the whole 'Entertainer should always smile' thing is a retread of 'Lawyers should always smile at the worst of times' thing from the trilogy. That diary as well as the retcon of Mr.Reus and just the underuse of other Troupe Gramarye members really pulled this case down a bit for me.

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The diary is a complete retread of Kay's promise-notebook in the way it is used in the case's plot.
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I mean at least the promise notebook was in AAI and not plot-materialized

Though admittedly I didn't mind the diary
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Still,the diary is a dumb plot device which has already been seen before and raises more questions than it does answers.
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Southern Corn (SC) wrote:
Yeah,I did notice that last part.
Spoiler: 6-2
Take Magnifi's super secret diary,for example. First of all,we already know Magnifi had his own diary from 4-4, so this is redundant. Secondly,the whole 'Entertainer should always smile' thing is a retread of 'Lawyers should always smile at the worst of times' thing from the trilogy. That diary as well as the retcon of Mr.Reus and just the underuse of other Troupe Gramarye members really pulled this case down a bit for me.


Did they actually translate it as diary? Because they are obviously different objects in the Japanese text and also called differently.
Spoiler:
The one in 4-4 is an actual diary (so something like a memoire). The one in 6-2 is not a diary, but more like a 'work' notebook. So one is about personal life, while the other is work-related.

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Murderous Painter

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It's called a notebook in the English version,so it seems ambiguous to me.

Still,it's a bit of a contrivance for Magnifi to have two of these super duper important books.
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Why not? They are for two different purposes.
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Murderous Painter

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Because as linkenski said,it's a copy of Kay's promise notebook with the whole 'entertainers should always keep a smile' thing,plus
Spoiler:
other than the trade secrets within,it's just a plot device used to say 'Oh reus isn't a good Gramarye cuz he didn't use magic right but Trucy followed the creed'. Feels extremely cheesy and redundant.

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Wriggling piece of plywood

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I get why it's a mediocre and seen-before plot device, my point was that I don't get why it would be contrived for Magnifi, as a person, (not for the plot) to have two important notebooks. But I guess that's not really important for the discussion at large.
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Oops yeah I misworded that. Nvm
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In the Japanese version, is Larry explicitly a picture book author or is he a mangaka?
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Picture book author.
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