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Prosecutors do make sense in Kurain...Topic%20Title
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Athena Internet Defense Force

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To address something I saw elsewhere (I think in Trial Minutes), just because the judicial system of Kurain doesn't employ defense attorneys doesn't mean that the prosecutor is equally as unnecessary.

Assuming that the judge is someone who calls the court to order and issues a verdict once guilt or innocence is proven and the spirit medium is the simply one conducting the ceremony to call forth the oracle necessary to divine the person being accused of their culpability, both of those parties are unbiased. They're just there because the law requires them in order for (their form of) justice to be carried out. You still need someone on behalf of the state to actually bring the case to trial. The individual responsible for actually accusing the suspect of the crime they supposedly committed. Without that then the court has no reason to recognize the accused and force them to stand trial. The prosecution is still required to represent the state's perspective of the case and give reason to hold trial.

The prosecutor would clearly do a lot less than a prosecutor where Phoenix comes from, obviously, since they just say "this person did it" and then the mystic will call forth the oracle and prove their point but they're still needed to actually have a trial at all.

The absence of a defense attorney is purely because they think the water mirror is infallible, which Phoenix intends to prove otherwise.
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Re: Prosecutors do make sense in Kurain...Topic%20Title
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"In it, players are shown a vision of the victim's last moments. . . Players then select one of Leifa's assertions and look for contradictions, moving through the video as needed." ~Bolt's Explanation of the new trial mechanic.

It's the medium who is making claims about the victim's final moments, not Payne (the prosecutor). In other words, he's not needed. You just need a medium who can interpret the crime to the Judge. Not only that, but she's making CLAIMS about the crime.

Therefore, the argument that "the spirit medium is the simply one conducting the ceremony to call forth the oracle necessary to divine the person being accused of their culpability. . ." is simply untrue.

Quote:
You still need someone on behalf of the state to actually bring the case to trial. The individual responsible for actually accusing the suspect of the crime they supposedly committed. Without that then the court has no reason to recognize the accused and force them to stand trial. The prosecution is still required to represent the state's perspective of the case and give reason to hold trial.


Why is it that they need a representative of the state to bring the case to trial when they don't require a representative for the defendant? How can you suddenly say that the state requires a prosecutor to bring the court to trial when it's obvious that this court system doesn't work the same as what we've seen before? From what we've seen and heard so far, there's absolutely no reason for a prosecutor to be there. You just need a medium to summon the victim's vision and make claims about what appears to convince the Judge otherwise.
Re: Prosecutors do make sense in Kurain...Topic%20Title
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Yatta.

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CE53 wrote:
"In it, players are shown a vision of the victim's last moments. . . Players then select one of Leifa's assertions and look for contradictions, moving through the video as needed." ~Bolt's Explanation of the new trial mechanic.

It's the medium who is making claims about the victim's final moments, not Payne (the prosecutor). In other words, he's not needed. You just need a medium who can interpret the crime to the Judge. Not only that, but she's making CLAIMS about the crime.

Except, contradicting Leyfa's assertions is exactly what would happen if she were a witness. She is basically being summoned as the expert testimonial. She herself does not take the stance of whether the defendant is guilty or not, even if she does believe that person is guilty. She simply makes assumptions based on what she sees and what is shown to everyone in the mirror.

Should the mirror show something that is beneficial to the defendant, she can act as the defendant's counsel at that. Hence, why DAs are not needed.

The prosecutor is still the one making the claim.
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Re: Prosecutors do make sense in Kurain...Topic%20Title
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Quote:
Except, contradicting Leyfa's assertions is exactly what would happen if she were a witness.


So do defense attornies not try to present evidence that counters the prosecution's claims?

Quote:
She herself does not take the stance of whether the defendant is guilty or not, even if she does believe that person is guilty.


She's making statements about the defendant's guilt based on her spiritual projections in the water. In other words, the evidence. It doesn't matter that she doesn't openly state, "I am a prosecutor and I maintain the stance that your client is guilty." The fact of the matter is that she's presenting evidence against the defendant and making claims based on that evidence (which is exactly the role of the prosecution in these trials).

Quote:
She simply makes assumptions based on what she sees and what is shown to everyone in the mirror.


"Assumptions, claims", call it what you want. Either way she's making statements based on the evidence to come to the conclusion that the defendant must have committed the crime. Not only that, but the fact that they're in a society where defense attorneys are irrelevant means that everyone in the court room (except the Judge) operates under the assumption that the defendant is guilty. So either way, you have everyone but the Judge and the non-existent defense against the accused.

Quote:
Should the mirror show something that is beneficial to the defendant, she can act as the defendant's counsel at that.


How can you say that when in all the years of the Medium Trials, the pool has yet to say something beneficial for the defendant. How would you even know she'd change her mind in the first place? All we've seen of her was her presenting the crime to us while she makes assertions about the defendant's actions of how he did it.
Re: Prosecutors do make sense in Kurain...Topic%20Title
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Yatta.

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CE53 wrote:
Quote:
Except, contradicting Leyfa's assertions is exactly what would happen if she were a witness.


So do defense attornies not try to present evidence that counters the prosecution's claims?

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm just saying Leyfa is not a witness for the prosecution or the defense. That's what "expert testimony" is about.

Quote:
Quote:
She simply makes assumptions based on what she sees and what is shown to everyone in the mirror.


"Assumptions, claims", call it what you want. Either way she's making statements based on the evidence to come to the conclusion that the defendant must have committed the crime. Not only that, but the fact that they're in a society where defense attorneys are irrelevant means that everyone in the court room (except the Judge) operates under the assumption that the defendant is guilty. So either way, you have everyone but the Judge and the non-existent defense against the accused.

It is also a world where what the spirit medium dictates is truth. What she sees is the victim's last conscious memory before death, and that evidence alone does not take sides. However, it is essentially the victim's testimony of the murder, so people, including the medium herself, would be more willing to assume that the dead do not lie.

Of course, a dead victim may still be mistaken, but I'll just leave that argument to Nick in the game.

Quote:
Quote:
Should the mirror show something that is beneficial to the defendant, she can act as the defendant's counsel at that.


How can you say that when in all the years of the Medium Trials, the pool has yet to say something beneficial for the defendant. How would you even know she'd change her mind in the first place? All we've seen of her was her presenting the crime to us while she makes assertions about the defendant's actions of how he did it.

Likewise, we don't know how long the Medium Trials have been set as the official system. All we do know is that the people have such a disdain for DAs that they practically hated them out of existence. But that suggests there used to be defense attorneys and some were so successful that they became equivalent with words for "greedy" or "scheming", or something that people would hate to be called. I wouldn't know a better reason to hate on lawyers.

And of course the princess would share those sentiments. Heck, she might even be biased against defendants in general. But no one in this country seems to dare to question royalty... even those defense attorneys that were out of their jobs for it.
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
Various official AA stuff translations currently in the works.
Updated to include tributes and more to the Yakuza game series. I'm forever trapped in karaoke hell.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: Prosecutors do make sense in Kurain...Topic%20Title
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Athena Internet Defense Force

Gender: Male

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Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:14 pm

Posts: 657

CE53 wrote:
Why is it that they need a representative of the state to bring the case to trial when they don't require a representative for the defendant? How can you suddenly say that the state requires a prosecutor to bring the court to trial when it's obvious that this court system doesn't work the same as what we've seen before? From what we've seen and heard so far, there's absolutely no reason for a prosecutor to be there. You just need a medium to summon the victim's vision and make claims about what appears to convince the Judge otherwise.

I'm not denying that the prosecutor can just sit on his hands after accusing the suspect. The point is the state (by way of the prosecutor) is making the claim that the suspect should be indicted of their crime. Court requires a judge present to preside, accept the indictment, and officiate the verdict and the spirit medium is, as Rubia said, an expert witness who is using their equivalent of forensic science to make the state's case against the suspect (the data contained within the oracle is the actual witness to the incident, much like forensic evidence is the actual "witness" in a real murder investigation; the expert is merely there to bring the findings to the trial and interpret them as evidence of the crime).

The only reason a defense attorney isn't present is likely because anyone before Phoenix didn't know what they could argue against in the mirror's vision. Having someone with Phoenix's perception in the courtroom to argue the validity of the oracle is why he'll prove that there's always room for a defense attorney.
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