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Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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linkenski wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Nayuta: Didn't I say you were chasing a deluded fantasy?
*flashback*
Nayuta: You're chasing a deluded fantasy

What is up with this anyway? Why did they go back to AJAA-style flashbacks where they're completely redundant or encapsulate way more than the significant lines of dialogue, again? Is there some staff member back on the team now whose role was to delegate flashbacks in AJAA or something? x)

I heard the flashbacks in this game were very overdone. There were a few in case 2 but nothing that bad compared to the original series, so I thought fans were just overreacting. Case 3, though, jesus christ. I wouldn't care if it didn't make the game load

I actually wonder if the flashbacks are a way of hiding all the loading the game needs to do? Wouldn't surprise me
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No, they clearly add extra stuff to be loaded rather than mask loading of something else. The engine is designed so you see the loading bar (which looks half-baked btw) every time new stuff is being streamed in the game files, and I think in general SoJ is just really pushing the 3DS and it doesn't help they wanted to tax it further with that admittedly beautiful Sepia filter and it also has a blur-effect that seems very high quality. That's why it loads, but I'm playing on n3DS with homebrew so while the framerate is only 3-5fps better the loading times are really not that significant for me as they seem to be for most other people I see here.
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I agree about the flashbacks. Take 2-2, for example.

Franziska: They rejected justified self-defense and pleaded not guilty.
-No flashback.

And then, take 6-3.
Spoiler:
*FLASHBACK*
Phoenix: This man is Datz Are'bal, senior member of the Defiant Dragons!

There was no need for the flashback at all!!!
POHLKUNKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
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I'm okay with those sometimes though I agree with you two they are too frequent, but in AJAA and then sometimes in SoJ the worst form appears:

(artificial example)
Phoenix: He fell unconscious!
*flashback*
Edgeworth: What are you going to do Mr wright?
Witness: Haha, try harder next time!
Judge: Do you have anything to say, defense?
Phoenix: ....... What if the witness was feigning his illness?
Witness: Oh, I feel dizzy....
*CRASH*
The judge: witness!
Edgeworth: He fell unconscious!
*CUT BACK TO PRESENT*
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Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title

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Ugh in case 3-5 they flashbacked to the same scene like 6 times.
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EdgeworthxOldbag wrote:
Ugh in case 3-5 they flashbacked to the same scene like 6 times.


Hold on...did that happen?

*flashbacks*
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To be honest that flashback made me laugh because it was just so pointless. Most flashbacks in the series are to show again the foreshadowing for the big reveal, or at least show something remotely important, but that one of Nahyuta is so random and irrelevant that it feels like the game is making fun of itself. I doubt it was intentional but it sure was a funny moment for me.
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The second half was definitely a lot better (and while I like the divination seances they are way too difficult) though I did guess how everything went down right before the to be continued in the latter trial. I thought Maya was pretty much as expected and Rayfa was lovely

I want to say this one of the weaker cases (trial-wise at least, the investigations were really good) but this is the only case besides 3-5 that actually made me cry...so I don't really know how to feel about it. I feel like I can't dislike a case that made me feel that way

I do think the case ended too abruptly with Maya's joke, though. Like maybe we needed an inner monologue from Nick similar to the end of 3-2 or something but whatever, I'm overall satisfied. Given the story of the game itself, this case presented all the right elements that were needed from the rebellion to the DC act

I also like how casually the photo in the rebel hideout was revealed

Anyway, the theme of SoJ: could it be legacy?
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So far what I gathered is that the main theme in the game is something to do with standing up to your superiors and taking the mantle, because that was a thing between Maya and Rayfa in some of their heated dialogue, it was for Trucy and her legacy, and it is again the main theme of case 4 in some way.
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Re: legacy

Spoiler: Possible Case 5 spoiler
Well, this isn't necessarily the "good" kind of legacy, but there is a document that basically says the sins of the parent are passed on to the child.

Kind of fits in with Case 2 as well, where Retinz has his revenge on the Gramaryes by targeting Trucy.

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Spoiler: Case 3 Spoilers
I think the most interesting thing about this case is that despite only one witness being left by the second investigation, the actual killer's identity was still a surprise. Sure, Beh'leeb still killed Zeh'lot, but the Zeh'lot being Lady Kee'ra and Tahrest committing suicide can still come as a surprise, even if you realize that Beh'leed is the only person left in the Court-Record who could actually be the killer.

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Spoiler: Case 3 Spoilers
I think the most interesting thing about this case is that despite only one witness being left by the second investigation, the actual killer's identity was still a surprise. Sure, Beh'leeb still killed Zeh'lot, but the Zeh'lot being Lady Kee'ra and Tahrest committing suicide can still come as a surprise, even if you realize that Beh'leed is the only person left in the Court-Record who could actually be the killer.

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Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title

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Pierre wrote:

Spoiler:
Yeah but the area of the crime is not only secret, it's in an EXTREMELY forbidden area only the Priest and his family normally can access. He'd have plenty of time to change the water. They could always have kept the body in the hideout and buried it when the ground thawed. Again the area is so private that no one would found it.

But you're forgetting one thing.
Spoiler: Case 3 MAJOR SPOILERS
If Zehlot just disappeared for a few months, Inga would suspect foul play. Considering Zehlot's role in Inga's plan, being the rebel hunter, Inga would know his real name. After all, considering how much of a risk Inga's plan requires, I doubt he'd trust someone under an alias. If foul play was suspected, Inga could just ask Rayfa to do a Divination Seance for Zehlot. Using the vision and senses, they would most likely deduce that Beh'leeb was the culprit. After all, Tah'rust doesn't have anything on him that could play the Steel Samurai theme, which eliminates him from the list. Maya would have little reason to be suspected, as she would be up there only once, under the supervision of Tah'rust. If a high priest was there, a respected individual, and he didn't say that a murder happened at the time, he'd be trusted. That would leave only Beh'leeb. If there is anything you want me to clear up, please ask me. I tend to have a hard time getting my points across at times. :sahwit:

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Spoiler:
Except that Puhray didn't know the difference between Steel Samurai theme and PP's theme. If they just based the killer off the senses (I cannot spell right now my bad) I don't think they would have found the killer at all.

Feel free to reply.
Or not.
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Asursrus wrote:
Spoiler:
Except that Puhray didn't know the difference between Steel Samurai theme and PP's theme. If they just based the killer off the senses (I cannot spell right now my bad) I don't think they would have found the killer at all.

Spoiler: Case 3 MAJOR SPOILERS
Being that as it may, even if they couldn't identify the culprit based on that alone, they can still use another means. Beh'leeb still had no alibi. Since the victim could smell Ginghil (if I spelled that right), the time of death can be deduced to the afternoon of the rite. Maya and Beh'leeb have no affirmable alibi during that time, at least, I know Beh'leeb doesn't. Also remember this. Inga knows who the rebel hunter is, as he's the one giving orders. Maya's motive as being the rebel hunter would disappear since the rebel hunter himself died. This leaves only Beh'leeb to be suspected. All of this would likely happen had Tahrust not done what he had did.

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Spoiler: 6-3
Also consider that Tahrust also didn't know the difference between the SS and PP themes and thought they were the same. So he thought the PP theme would show up in Puhray's vision, which it did, and he thought that'd incriminate Beh'leeb

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Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Spoiler:
I was so bothered by Maya casually channeling a spirit right after playing this case. I mean, DL-6 caused a lot of pain for so many people, Maya's immediate family included, so it seems strange she'd just casually suggest channeling a spirit to help Phoenix's case. Also thought it odd that she said something like she had 30% chance of channeling a spirit back then, when she seemed pretty confident in her chances of channeling Mimi, which she never got to do after all. I don't remember her ever saying anything about having difficulty in channeling a spirit who's not Mia. In the first game, any difficulty was just due to a lack of training.

I still don't get the 30% thing, but anyway, her channeling a spirit doesn't really bother me that much now. I mean, it's been what, 25 years since DL-6 and she was only 2 at the time, so it stands to reason she wouldn't be so affected by it. Anyway, her channeling in court took place in Khura'in, and not Japanifornia, so it's not that big a deal. Just kinda took me by surprise.

Seriously, was anyone else baffled by that random 30% thing?
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Kyarorain wrote:
Spoiler:
I was so bothered by Maya casually channeling a spirit right after playing this case. I mean, DL-6 caused a lot of pain for so many people, Maya's immediate family included, so it seems strange she'd just casually suggest channeling a spirit to help Phoenix's case. Also thought it odd that she said something like she had 30% chance of channeling a spirit back then, when she seemed pretty confident in her chances of channeling Mimi, which she never got to do after all. I don't remember her ever saying anything about having difficulty in channeling a spirit who's not Mia. In the first game, any difficulty was just due to a lack of training.

I still don't get the 30% thing, but anyway, her channeling a spirit doesn't really bother me that much now. I mean, it's been what, 25 years since DL-6 and she was only 2 at the time, so it stands to reason she wouldn't be so affected by it. Anyway, her channeling in court took place in Khura'in, and not Japanifornia, so it's not that big a deal. Just kinda took me by surprise.

Seriously, was anyone else baffled by that random 30% thing?

Spoiler:
That is, as you say, a random number she spouted as an hyperbole to establish that she is now better at channelling than she used to be. She has spent years training to be master; she damn well be better than she was during the trilogy.
During the trilogy, she occasionally failed to channel a spirit, and Pearl even had more power than she did. That she was confident she could channel well at the time does not mean her now wisened and experienced self cannot see the truth for what it was: She was far too confident after the bit of training she did between the first and second game.
Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title

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Going for Miles wrote:
Spoiler:
"Rheel Neh'mu"... Rheely...?
Anyhow. The case started of a little blah to me, especially the part about Maya being accused once again. On the other hand, it works for story purposes, such as giving Phoenix a good reason to bother to take a case in the country despite the culpability act, and also to mirror the Inmee-couple's story. It's just so, so overdone (although I guess I'll just have to blame Takumi on that part).

With its place in the game so far, I like it. That is, the story part of it kept me captured with what we got to know about the country and the rebels and so forth, which surely will come in handy later in the overall plot (and last case, I presume), and the story behind the case itself was interesting and also fueled the plot with the whole "this proves how much the legal system sucks"- thing. It was also a nice contrast to the previous, more lighthearted (as lighthearted as a murder case can be, anyway) filler-case. This one turned out quite heavy, both story-wise and information-wise, and I left it kind of exhausted.
My biggest problem with the case are those moments when you've figured out something before Phoenix, and then have to wait until he/the story catches up before you can do aything with it. Surely, in a game like this it's inevitable that it happens every once in a while, it's just that in this particular case I found it happen a lot, and with a lot I mean... a lot. Meanwhile, the Apollo-reveal was really anti-climactic and out of the blue xD Phoenix was like "Nahyuta is Dhurke's son???!! ...oh, and there's Apollo too. I like that guy." Anyway, in conclusion, I like it thinking back of it, but I don't know if I'd have the patience and energy to replay it.
It was nice seeing good ol' Maya again (although I think they could've been a little braver and done more with her, she looks basically the same and has basically the same animations as in the trilogy), and a good ol' spirit-channeling. The High priest's happiness with "his" hair was cute :D I also liked Beh'leeb and Datz.

If you don't mind me asking, why blame Takumi? He wasn't involved in the writing of this case or the game, for that matter. :maya-thought:
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Apollo4Justice wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, why blame Takumi? He wasn't involved in the writing of this case or the game, for that matter. :maya-thought:

Because he's the reason it's overdone

As of case 3, the amount of times each writer has utilized "Maya is kidnapped/the defendant":

Takumi: 4
Yamazaki: 1

Though I'm sure if you changed it too "The assistant is kidnapped/the defendant", it'd be a bit more even for both of them
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I swear,this case probably is most balanced on the bad puns scale in terms of badness.

Case one has 'ok' bad names,and case five and ok good names with one really terrible one. This one just has the worst ones consistently,I guess.
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Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Apollo4Justice wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, why blame Takumi? He wasn't involved in the writing of this case or the game, for that matter. :maya-thought:

Because he's the reason it's overdone

As of case 3, the amount of times each writer has utilized "Maya is kidnapped/the defendant":

Takumi: 4
Yamazaki: 1

Though I'm sure if you changed it too "The assistant is kidnapped/the defendant", it'd be a bit more even for both of them

Spoiler: oops (whole game)
Considering it happened twice in SoJ, I feel like there's something off about this math...

There's also the fact that Takumi has simply made more games with Maya in them, so Yamazaki simply hasn't had the opportunity to put Maya in danger; as you point out, they're probably about even in terms of endangering the assistant character in general.

edit: oops didn't see the "as of case 3"
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Yeah, as JM said, he's the reason it's overdone... because heee staaaarted iiiit~
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Going for Miles wrote:
Yeah, as JM said, he's the reason it's overdone... because heee staaaarted iiiit~


Why blaming Takumi, who had no involvement in the game? It's Yamazaki (& his team) who brought Maya back in SOJ. And he's also the one who made her the defendant/kidnapping victim again. He could have given Maya a different purpose to be in the game, instead of just being a "damsel in distress"; and yet that's literally all what Maya has done in the game: being in danger.

It just feels like, once they had decided to add her in the game, they didn't know what to do with her, what role give her that would've justified her presence, and so they played it safe by re-using two old and (by now) overused cliché situations.

I'm not saying Yamazaki did a bad job at all (in fact, I actually liked SOJ), but I believe it's a bit unfair blaming Takumi for this.
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I'm not "blaming" Takumi for Maya's role in SoJ (I wasn't being serious when I worded it like that), I just said that it was Takumi's games that made it a cliché move from the start. Doesn't mean I think it was his fault that it happened again here. I didn't like that it happened so many times in the trilogy, and I didn't like that it happened again in this one, that's all.

Quote:
that's literally all what Maya has done in the game: being in danger

Literally all? Her spirit-channeling didn't play a big part in the plot? (And if you count the DLC case as part of the game, where she had the assistant role)

Quote:
It just feels like, once they had decided to add her in the game, they didn't know what to do with her, what role give her that would've justified her presence, and so they played it safe by re-using two old and (by now) overused cliché situations.

Amen. If they really wanted her in the game, I wish they'd be a little more gutsy with her character instead of having her appear and behave almost exactly as her teenage self and put her in those roles again.
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There was a moment at the beginning of this case where Nick meets Maya and he's like "(She's just the same as she was all those years ago...maybe too similar)." I really thought this was gonna lead to a character arc for Maya where she admitted she was still afraid to grow up and become Master but due to *insert events of game*, she realized that it's time for her to grow up because she's the hope of the Fey clan. Would've been similar to T&T but that's where i thought the game was going

I did like the moments where Maya was a little more mature like the end of Case 3 when she talked to Rayfa, what she does at the end of the game, etc. They definitely should've been a little more brave with how she changed after the timeskip, both personality and design

I still do wish she were in the game more but I can't think of a way she could be included more without a serious rewriting of the game (best I can think is move her meeting Nick to Case 1 and have her join him in court there. I suppose you could also introduce a new Khurainese character that could be the defendant in this case and have Maya be the assistant the whole time but we'd lose the parallel to the characters at the end of this case and more importantly, we'd lose Rayfa as the investigation partner). I'm a Maya fan but not a HUGE Maya fan, but I still enjoyed her in the game ultimately
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Going for Miles wrote:
I'm not "blaming" Takumi for Maya's role in SoJ (I wasn't being serious when I worded it like that), I just said that it was Takumi's games that made it a cliché move from the start. Doesn't mean I think it was his fault that it happened again here. I didn't like that it happened so many times in the trilogy, and I didn't like that it happened again in this one, that's all.


Oh, sorry! I had misinterpreted your words. I 100% agree with you here.

Going for Miles wrote:
Literally all? Her spirit-channeling didn't play a big part in the plot? (And if you count the DLC case as part of the game, where she had the assistant role)


Well, in a sense yes. But I just wish her reason for being in the game had been more complex than just for using her spirit medium powers...
Spoiler:
...to summon Tharust and Dhurke.


Though, I liked her in the DLC case, so no complaints there!

Going for Miles wrote:
Amen. If they really wanted her in the game, I wish they'd be a little more gutsy with her character instead of having her appear and behave almost exactly as her teenage self and put her in those roles again.


Yeah, that's precisely what I wanted to say. It feels like a big wasted opportunity for a further development of her character.

Spoiler: Case 3
Though, I admit that moment with Rayfa in the defendant lobby at the end of the case was sooo interesting.


Unfortunately, that was the only time they actually showed us the mature, responsible and serious trait of the grown-up Maya.
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Quote:
Oh, sorry! I had misinterpreted your words. I 100% agree with you here.

No probs :maya:

Quote:
Spoiler: Case 3
Though, I admit that moment with Rayfa in the defendant lobby at the end of the case was sooo interesting.


Unfortunately, that was the only time they actually showed us the mature, responsible and serious trait of the grown-up Maya.

Ah, yes. I had forgotten about that, honestly.
It felt like they tried to do something with that "keeping it real"-stuff too, but to me that just felt like empty talking that didn't actually lead to anything.
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Apollo4Justice wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, why blame Takumi? He wasn't involved in the writing of this case or the game, for that matter. :maya-thought:

Because he's the reason it's overdone

As of case 3, the amount of times each writer has utilized "Maya is kidnapped/the defendant":

Takumi: 4
Yamazaki: 1

Though I'm sure if you changed it too "The assistant is kidnapped/the defendant", it'd be a bit more even for both of them


If you include the Layton Crossover, then it's 5 for Takumi. (I remember hearing Takumi did a lot of the writing/plot of that game.)
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Yeah, I realized after the fact that I forgot about PLvAA
Re: Case three discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Calm, pacified attorney

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But because it's Takumi it doesn't matter. JK

They really just need to move on from Maya because she'll be forever destined to be in trouble in every game she appears in regardless of writers because it's such a trope. They should go the AA5 route for the next game and focus on a lot of new characters and then hopefully do it better so there are no Mary Sues or repeat plotlines lol.
T&T is the equivalent to FFVII. AA1 rocks the most :P
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In Regards to Maya you can see that she has grown up some and isn't the same as she was in the original trilogy. I suppose Capcom wanted to play it safe.
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Armie Buff wrote:
In Regards to Maya you can see that she has grown up some and isn't the same as she was in the original trilogy. I suppose Capcom wanted to play it safe.

What? She's exactly the same as in the OT. She's her same goofball self most of the time, and while she has a serious scene or two... she still had those back in OT as well.
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Bad Player wrote:
Armie Buff wrote:
In Regards to Maya you can see that she has grown up some and isn't the same as she was in the original trilogy. I suppose Capcom wanted to play it safe.

What? She's exactly the same as in the OT. She's her same goofball self most of the time, and while she has a serious scene or two... she still had those back in OT as well.

True enough. The thing is I didn't have any complaints with Maya in fact I was worried they might alter her personality too much but thankfully that wasn't the case. Plus it was nice to see her character again.
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Contradiction in the opening cutscene of 6-3?!
In the intro of this case you first see a guard realizing that Datz has fled from the prison. Then you see 2 rebels talking to each other: "Well, you know, with Datz back on the streets, things will be on the up and up for us." "Keep your voice down! You want that rebel hunter to find us or something? ..." And then you see Lady Keera haunting those 2 rebels... however, this isn't possible...
Spoiler: 6-3
As we all know, the real identity of the rebel-hunting Lady Keera was Rheel Nehmu aka Puhray Zehlot, who died 2 days (40 hours to be exact) before the suicide of Tahrust Inmee. However, Datz broke out of the prison just right before Tahrust's death. He was even an eyewitness and in the escape plan was written: "Use the lamplights as a landmark, parachute down to the Inner Sanctum. Upon the rite's completion, don Lady Keera's robes and escape". Datz never put on the clothes though, Tahrust put them on the statue and later placed them in the bloody water while comitting suicide on the day of the rite's completion.
My point is: Datz clearly broke out of prison after Lady Keera (Puhray Zehlot / Rheel Nehmu) was already dead. The scene from the intro could never have happened!
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That's...a very good point. And different from other "misleading intros" of the series

Spoiler: 6-3
The best I can think is that Inga hired someone to act as the rebel hunter for a night since he knew Puhray would be praying all day and either needed to:

1. Give Puhray an alibi if he were ever accused of being Lady Kee'ra

2. Arrest Datz as soon as possible but Puhray was busy praying
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Bad Player wrote:
Armie Buff wrote:
In Regards to Maya you can see that she has grown up some and isn't the same as she was in the original trilogy. I suppose Capcom wanted to play it safe.

What? She's exactly the same as in the OT. She's her same goofball self most of the time, and while she has a serious scene or two... she still had those back in OT as well.

There are a few scenes where her personality felt decidedly different to me from OT but they felt so tacked on. There are those one or two moments when she confronts Rayfa about Khura'in or something and it feels like she's doing it with her own agency and not slightly hiding by Nick or say it with that teenage-ranty attitude as she would in the past, but they felt really sudden and there wasn't anything to them in terms of giving Maya some kind of character-arc. That's my biggest reason why I just didn't care for Maya in this game. She has no arc and she's just there to be a Kurain Channeling plot-device two times.
T&T is the equivalent to FFVII. AA1 rocks the most :P
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That also sums up my thoughts on Ema in this game nicely.
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