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Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Hehehe

Spoiler: Case 5 and the Founder's Orb
I really want fanart or an animation now where Phoenix asks Apollo if he's overflowing with spiritual power and he just replies "....YES HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" and hulks out in front of the courtroom.

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So, while playing through the final case I really enjoyed it (I even thought the plot development with a certain recurring character was well-handled). However, after a bit of thought, I've kind of realized that the case just makes no sense. Or maybe I'm just forgetting certain details from the case... It is a super long one, after all, so some stuff might've just slipped past me.

Spoiler:
From my understanding, here is a basic outline of the plot:

-Inga kidnaps Maya so that he can use her as a bartering chip to get the Founder's orb.
-Dhurke tries to rescue Maya, just because he's a cool dude.
-Inga shoots Dhurke, runs away, and then later comes back and puts his body in the coffin after he dies. I don't think the game really specifies whether he hides the body before or after Maya channels Dhurke and escapes.
-Dhurke-Maya goes to Japanifornia, partly to find the orb and partly just to see Apollo.
-First half of the case happens.
-Team Apollo return to Khur'ain to save Maya, who unbeknownst to them is already safe.
-Inga arranges a hostage transfer meeting with Dhurke, EVEN THOUGH HE ALREADY KNOWS FIRSTHAND THAT DHURKE IS DEAD AND BURIED IN THE TOMB. Inga thus establishes himself as the stupidest villain in the entire series.
-Around 2:00, Gar'an kills Inga in the tomb, while dressed as Dhurke. Amara is channeling some random spirit at the time for a foreign official.
-Around 2:30, Amara (somehow knowing that Inga is dead) runs into Inga's quarters, chased by Shah'do.
-Amara channels Inga and runs to the tomb.
-Dhurke-Maya is already in the tomb, but does not see Inga's corpse because it is behind the sarcophagus.
-Inga-Amara sneaks up behind Dhurke-Maya and exorcises Dhurke
-Amara then channels Dhurke, sets up the scene to make it appear like Maya is still kidnapped, changes clothes with Maya (whose robes the game even lampshades as having come out of nowhere), burns the old clothes, then waits in the tombs until the guards come in to arrest him-her.
-Amara apparently does this with little to no coordination with Dhurke, as Apollo had to convince her to trust in Dhurke.


So, my issues/questions here:

-What the hell, Inga? You literally buried Dhurke in a coffin, to which only two people have the key. You've married into a family of spirit mediums. You know damn well what this situation means. And apart from that, how is it even possible that you did not notice that Maya, your hostage, was missing for several days, while "Dhurke" was in another country? Even if we're to assume he never checked up on Maya at all during that time, the moment Dhurke spoke to him on the phone, he should've gone to the tomb straightaway to make sure that his bartering chip was still there. And then when he found that she wasn't, he should've called off the hostage transfer, because it could only end poorly for him. Inga should of course have known at that point that "Dhurke" was really Maya. This guy is a freaking idiot. How he became Justice Minister is beyond me.

-If Inga killed the hated enemy of the regime and had the corpse to prove it, why would he not publicly announce the death? The rebels go on about how Dhurke's death would mean the end to the rebellion, so it seems to me like this would have been the smart thing to do in Inga's position. Heck, even if we're going the "murder is still murder" route, he's the frigging Minister of Justice. He could've easily pinned the crime on somebody else. Instead, we're just left to assume that only he knew Dhurke was dead, and maybe Gar'an, and apparently also Amara for some reason.

-Dhurke says he's leading a bloodless rebellion. Sure, the game wants us to sympathize with the rebels and I'm okay with that... But I guess "bloodless" doesn't include when Datz was totally prepared to stab Phoenix with a machete if he hadn't held the right ideals.

-How does Amara even know that Dhurke is dead? The entire plot hinges around her channeling him. Yet Inga shot him and the only witness channeled him and escaped to a different country. Are we to assume that Inga was bragging about the murder to her or something? This also only works if Dhurke getting shot by Inga and channeled by Maya was part of Dhurke's plan.

-The whole "frame Dhurke for Inga's murder" thing seems way more complicated than it should be. Gar'an is literally the queen. No need to get her own hands dirty. She could just have some mook smother Inga in his sleep. Then plant evidence suggesting Dhurke was at the crime (if she knows Dhurke's dead, that's even better, since she can continue to use him as a mystery scapegoat forever for propaganda purposes). Her regime has already been established as framing people for various crimes, so this kind of thing should be child's play for her.

-Amara was being blackmailed by Gar'an, so she went along with the plot to frame Dhurke. And yet when she channeled Dhurke in the tomb and set up the crime scene to make it look like he did it, that was not Amara acting... it was Dhurke. Another point on that, Amara channeling Dhurke was part of Gar'an's plan... She KNOWS it's really Amara. So what's she gonna do if there's a guilty verdict? They've announced a public execution, so... execute Dhurke-Amara and kill the only spirit medium in the kingdom? Doesn't her whole plan revolve around the fact that she's not able to channel spirits and needs Amara to do it for her?

-Up until the trial, the Khur'ainese public only saw Rayfa as being Gar'an's daughter. So if Gar'an followed through on her threats to harm Rayfa, it would hurt her own public reputation. She already has a rebellion on her doorstep and now she wants to be known as the woman who executed her own kid? And what happens after that? If Rayfa dies, both Nahyuta and Amara have no reason to follow along with anything that Gar'an tells them to do.
Basically, any threats that Gar'an makes to hurt the Khur'ainese nobility are entirely empty.

-The game says that Rayfa will become queen now and Nahyuta will act as her regent. But... why? They just proved that Amara is still alive.


Like I said, it's a long and incredibly convoluted case, so I might've missed some stuff along the line. Maybe somebody can clear these point up.


Last edited by Ropfa on Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Ropfa wrote:
So, my issues/questions here:
Spoiler:
-What the hell, Inga? You literally buried Dhurke in a coffin, to which only two people have the key. You've married into a family of spirit mediums. You know damn well what this situation means. And apart from that, how is it even possible that you did not notice that Maya, your hostage, was missing for several days, while "Dhurke" was in another country? Even if we're to assume he never checked up on Maya at all during that time, the moment Dhurke spoke to him on the phone, he should've gone to the tomb straightaway to make sure that his bartering chip was still there. And then when he found that she wasn't, he should've called off the hostage transfer, because it could only end poorly for him. Inga should of course have known at that point that "Dhurke" was really Maya. This guy is a freaking idiot. How he became Justice Minister is beyond me.


Spoiler:
It's very probably it was Garan in the end who put Druk in the tomb. But anyway: play the part with the phone call again. Inga was blackmailing Phoenix with Maya, knowing well that Phoenix didn't know she was safe. Once Druk takes over the phone, Inga actually switches plans: he starts blackmailing Druk with Amara and Reifa. In the end, Inga simply needed someone to bring the orb safely to him. Whether that was Phoenix for the sake of Maya, or a man presumed dead for the sake of Amara and Reifa, that didn't matter (and if Garan had put Druk in the tomb, Inga might've assumed Druk somehow surived)


Quote:
Spoiler:
-How does Amara even know that Dhurke is dead? The entire plot hinges around her channeling him. Yet Inga shot him and the only witness channeled him and escaped to a different country. Are we to assume that Inga was bragging about the murder to her or something? This also only works if Dhurke getting shot by Inga and channeled by Maya was part of Dhurke's plan.

Spoiler:
Amara was forced to play along with Garan. Garan obviously had a close watch on the movements on her husband: this is how she discovered that Druk was dead, and that he was being channeled by someone. So Garan made use of that fact, and the fact that Inga had already himself arranged a meeting with a spirit being channeled to plan the whole thing, with Amara as the one who'd execute the plan.


Quote:
Spoiler:
-Amara was being blackmailed by Gar'an, so she went along with the plot to frame Dhurke. And yet when she channeled Dhurke in the tomb and set up the crime scene to make it look like he did it, that was not Amara acting... it was Dhurke. Another point on that, Amara channeling Dhurke was part of Gar'an's plan... She KNOWS it's really Dhurke. So what's she gonna do if there's a guilty verdict? They've announced a public execution, so... execute Dhurke-Amara and kill the only spirit medium in the kingdom? Doesn't her whole plan revolve around the fact that she's not able to channel spirits and needs Amara to do it for her?

Spoiler:
Druk knew that Amara was channeling him and using him to escape the tomb. But he wanted to protect her despite everything. And there are lots of ways to deal with "Druk's death", especially because they already have his body. Even if they announced a public execution, they could always stage a fake escape and then present his body later as being shot while on the run.


Quote:
Spoiler:
-Up until the trial, the Khur'ainese public only saw Rayfa as being Gar'an's daughter. So if Gar'an followed through on her threats to harm Rayfa, it would hurt her own public reputation. She already has a rebellion on her doorstep and now she wants to be known as the woman who executed her own kid? And what happens after that? If Rayfa dies, both Nahyuta and Amara have no reason to follow along with anything that Gar'an tells them to do.
Basically, any threats that Gar'an makes to hurt the Khur'ainese nobility are entirely empty.

Spoiler:
Threatening hostages in the real world is often like that though. But most people aren't willing to risk the chance it's just a bluff. I.e. nuclear warfare makes little sense if both parties have things aimed at each other, but you sure don't want things to escalate.


Quote:
Spoiler:
-The game says that Rayfa will become queen now and Nahyuta will act as her regent. But... why? They just proved that Amara is still alive.

Spoiler:
The queen who fooled her own people for decades and was an accomplice to a crime

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Jean Descole wrote:
Spoiler: part 1
Good to see Pearl if only briefly. I feel bad her skills as an artist are worse than Larry's

Spoiler: GK2
What do you mean? Larry is actually a pretty good artist, especially as shown in GK2.

Jean Descole wrote:
Spoiler: part 2. Rambling almost as long as the case itself.
Queen Ga'ran - I kind of lol'd at her referring to herself in the plural sense at all times.

Spoiler:
But that's simply the royal we

Ropfa wrote:
Spoiler:
-If Inga killed the hated enemy of the regime and had the corpse to prove it, why would he not publicly announce the death? The rebels go on about how Dhurke's death would mean the end to the rebellion, so it seems to me like this would have been the smart thing to do in Inga's position. Heck, even if we're going the "murder is still murder" route, he's the frigging Minister of Justice. He could've easily pinned the crime on somebody else. Instead, we're just left to assume that only he knew Dhurke was dead, and maybe Gar'an, and apparently also Amara for some reason.

Spoiler:
Adding to what Ash said, if Ga'ran was the one who hid the body, then Inga also wouldn't know where the body is and thus would have zero proof of Dhurke's death. Remember that Inga first ran away out of fear from Dhurke's stare and left him behind. I bet he came back later and saw both Maya and Dhurke missing. He then continued to extort Phoenix (through Paul Atishon) despite not having Maya anymore

Ropfa wrote:
Spoiler:
-Dhurke says he's leading a bloodless rebellion. Sure, the game wants us to sympathize with the rebels and I'm okay with that... But I guess "bloodless" doesn't include when Datz was totally prepared to stab Phoenix with a machete if he hadn't held the right ideals.

Spoiler:
Well, it's not like Dhurke has full control over what Datz does and says. Especially Datz of all people, who kinda keeps doing his own thing like throwing explosive fireworks at little children. Dhurke could easily advocate a bloodless rebellion with Datz thinking "Well, I'mma still shiv this guy if he's gonna betray us."

Ropfa wrote:
Spoiler:
-The game says that Rayfa will become queen now and Nahyuta will act as her regent. But... why? They just proved that Amara is still alive.

Spoiler:
Also adding to what Ash said, Amara explicitly said she absolutely doesn't want to go back to being queen again

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Nurio wrote:
Jean Descole wrote:
Spoiler: part 1
Good to see Pearl if only briefly. I feel bad her skills as an artist are worse than Larry's

Spoiler: GK2
What do you mean? Larry is actually a pretty good artist, especially as shown in GK2.


Spoiler:
True; I was thinking more of his skill level around T&T.



Quote:
Jean Descole wrote:
Spoiler: part 2. Rambling almost as long as the case itself.
Queen Ga'ran - I kind of lol'd at her referring to herself in the plural sense at all times.

Spoiler:
But that's simply the royal we



Spoiler:
I'm referring more to the parts where she says "our husband." It sounds unintentionally polygamous.

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Pierre wrote:
Hehehe

Spoiler: Case 5 and the Founder's Orb
I really want fanart or an animation now where Phoenix asks Apollo if he's overflowing with spiritual power and he just replies "....YES HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" and hulks out in front of the courtroom.


Spoiler:
Image
Image

Pleased to please :godot:
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drivojunior323 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Hehehe

Spoiler: Case 5 and the Founder's Orb
I really want fanart or an animation now where Phoenix asks Apollo if he's overflowing with spiritual power and he just replies "....YES HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" and hulks out in front of the courtroom.


Spoiler:
Image
Image

Pleased to please :godot:




Oh wow xD did you have the same idea?

That is so perfect!
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Pierre wrote:
drivojunior323 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Hehehe

Spoiler: Case 5 and the Founder's Orb
I really want fanart or an animation now where Phoenix asks Apollo if he's overflowing with spiritual power and he just replies "....YES HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" and hulks out in front of the courtroom.


Spoiler:
Image
Image

Pleased to please :godot:




Oh wow xD did you have the same idea?

That is so perfect!


Actually it's thanks to you! :pearl: I read your post on this thread in the morning and immediately started working on it because it was just so perfect!! XD Thanks a lot for that, I was really in the mood to draw something AA related :basil:
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drivojunior323 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Hehehe

Spoiler: Case 5 and the Founder's Orb
I really want fanart or an animation now where Phoenix asks Apollo if he's overflowing with spiritual power and he just replies "....YES HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" and hulks out in front of the courtroom.


Spoiler:
Image
Image

Pleased to please :godot:


Goddamnit I laughed :haha:
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drivojunior323 wrote:

Actually it's thanks to you! :pearl: I read your post on this thread in the morning and immediately started working on it because it was just so perfect!! XD Thanks a lot for that, I was really in the mood to draw something AA related :basil:



Aww thank you! That's a real nice thing you did and your art is great for the comic style! I'll cherish this! :thena-hair:
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About the ending and the direction the franchise is going:

Spoiler:
I'm pretty damn excited if Apollo's departure means more of a classic Phoenix and Maya-type game. They've been building up to this for three games now. The fact that we didn't get much of her in SoJ just adds to it. I'm confident Apollo won't be gone that long, anyways. It seems inherently necessary to give key characters a rest here and there to avoid killing them off or doing a complete reboot. Maya went away to train, Phoenix had his thing, Gumshoe, Larry, and Franny are in purgatory (ignore AAI), Klavier is hardly relevant, etc. When they do things like this, we appreciate the characters more when they return, as it keeps things fresh. We would have been sick of another Phoenix-Maya game by now, but thanks to the huge turn the franchise took it'll be fresh again. I'm sure it'll only last for just one game anyways. Apollo will be back soon enough. This franchise is reaching a tipping point with characters. We already saw how difficult it was for them to fit Athena and Simon in this game as it was. Finding ways to give them breaks is acceptable.

Be glad Apollo got one hell of a send off. The game felt like it was going to be another Wright-centered game like Dual Destinies, and it built itself into something awesome starring Apollo. They even let Apollo get the best of Wright when they faced off in court! Good for him. If anything, I was frustrated at how they decided to write Ema off last minute having her stay in Khura'in. That was really weak and laughable how Edgeworth just allows it. I believe this means they're ready to bring Gumshoe back as the detective for the next game. This is further evidenced by the references to him when you present your attorney's badge to Edgeworth as Phoenix. Looking forward to seeing Gumshoe again, I'm just gonna miss Ema.

Also, can we talk about how damn awesome that brief glimpse of the Athena-Maya dynamic was? AA7 doesn't just have to be all about Wright and Maya if Apollo's gone. Maya being an assistant to Athena would be loads of fun -- they both bring a lot of flair and enable each other. Athena still has a lot more growing to do anyways. I'm sure this will allow them to focus more on her development as an attorney considering Apollo pretty much graduated in this game. Who knows, we could even see Trucy as an assistant again, too. I know a lot of us have been itching to see that.

tl;dr:

:godot: The return of classic Maya-Phoenix gameplay?
:godot: The Athena-Maya dynamic is absolute fire. Possible defense team?
:godot: Ema's weak write-off means Gumshoe is probably coming back.
:godot: Giving characters like Apollo/Ema/Nahyuta a break makes the universe more manageable and pushes back an inevitable reboot.
:godot: Athena's role will probably expand now.
:godot: Apollo won't be gone for long.

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Last edited by Louie82Y on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Louie82Y wrote:
About the ending and the direction the franchise is going:

Spoiler:
I'm pretty damn excited if Apollo's departure means more of a classic Phoenix and Maya-type game. They've been building up to this for three games now. The fact that we didn't get much of her in SoJ just adds to it. I'm confident Apollo won't be gone that long, anyways. It seems inherently necessary to give key characters a rest here and there to avoid killing them off or doing a complete reboot. Maya went away to train, Phoenix had his thing, Gumshoe, Larry, and Franny are in purgatory(ignore AAI), Klavier is hardly relevant, etc. When they do things like this, we appreciate the characters more when they return. as it keeps things fresh. We would have been sick of another Phoenix-Maya game by now, but thanks to the huge turn the franchise took it'll be fresh again. I'm sure it'll only be like this just one game anyways. Apollo will be back soon enough. This franchise is reaching a tipping point with characters. We already saw how difficult it was for them to fit Athena and Simon in this game as it was. Finding ways to give them breaks is acceptable.

Be glad Apollo got one hell of a send off. The game felt like it was going to be another Wright-centered game like Dual Destinies, and it built itself into something awesome starring Apollo. They even let Apollo get the best of Wright when they faced off in court! Good for him. If anything, I was frustrated at how they decided to write Ema off last minute having her stay in Khura'in. That was really weak and laughable how Edgeworth just allows it. I believe this means they're ready to bring Gumshoe back as the detective for the next game. This is further evidenced by the references to him when you present your attorney's badge to Edgeworth as Phoenix. Looking forward to seeing Gumshoe again, I'm just gonna miss Ema.

Also, can we talk about how damn awesome that brief glimpse of the Athena-Maya dynamic was? AA7 doesn't just have to be all about Wright and Maya if Apollo's gone. Maya being an assistant to Athena would be loads of fun -- they both bring a lot of flair and enable each other. Athena still has a lot more growing to do anyways. I'm sure this will allow them to focus more on her development as an attorney considering Apollo pretty much graduated in this game. Who knows, we could even see Trucy as an assistant again, too. I know a lot of us have been itching to see that.

I find one thing strange with what you said...
Spoiler:
In the credits scene, as you mentioned, Ema talks about being dragged to Khura'in by Sahdmadhi, which you interpret as her not showing up anymore, or hardly showing up. But in the same credits scene, Maya talks about how she's going to be very busy as the Master, yet you interpreted that as her having enough time to be assistant for both Phoenix and Athena.

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Nurio wrote:
Louie82Y wrote:
About the ending and the direction the franchise is going:

Spoiler:
I'm pretty damn excited if Apollo's departure means more of a classic Phoenix and Maya-type game. They've been building up to this for three games now. The fact that we didn't get much of her in SoJ just adds to it. I'm confident Apollo won't be gone that long, anyways. It seems inherently necessary to give key characters a rest here and there to avoid killing them off or doing a complete reboot. Maya went away to train, Phoenix had his thing, Gumshoe, Larry, and Franny are in purgatory(ignore AAI), Klavier is hardly relevant, etc. When they do things like this, we appreciate the characters more when they return. as it keeps things fresh. We would have been sick of another Phoenix-Maya game by now, but thanks to the huge turn the franchise took it'll be fresh again. I'm sure it'll only be like this just one game anyways. Apollo will be back soon enough. This franchise is reaching a tipping point with characters. We already saw how difficult it was for them to fit Athena and Simon in this game as it was. Finding ways to give them breaks is acceptable.

Be glad Apollo got one hell of a send off. The game felt like it was going to be another Wright-centered game like Dual Destinies, and it built itself into something awesome starring Apollo. They even let Apollo get the best of Wright when they faced off in court! Good for him. If anything, I was frustrated at how they decided to write Ema off last minute having her stay in Khura'in. That was really weak and laughable how Edgeworth just allows it. I believe this means they're ready to bring Gumshoe back as the detective for the next game. This is further evidenced by the references to him when you present your attorney's badge to Edgeworth as Phoenix. Looking forward to seeing Gumshoe again, I'm just gonna miss Ema.

Also, can we talk about how damn awesome that brief glimpse of the Athena-Maya dynamic was? AA7 doesn't just have to be all about Wright and Maya if Apollo's gone. Maya being an assistant to Athena would be loads of fun -- they both bring a lot of flair and enable each other. Athena still has a lot more growing to do anyways. I'm sure this will allow them to focus more on her development as an attorney considering Apollo pretty much graduated in this game. Who knows, we could even see Trucy as an assistant again, too. I know a lot of us have been itching to see that.

I find one thing strange with what you said...
Spoiler:
In the credits scene, as you mentioned, Ema talks about being dragged to Khura'in by Sahdmadhi, which you interpret as her not showing up anymore, or hardly showing up. But in the same credits scene, Maya talks about how she's going to be very busy as the Master, yet you interpreted that as her having enough time to be assistant for both Phoenix and Athena.


Also she's the DLC investigator SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The DLC takes place like, several months after the main game. May->September
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Louie82Y wrote:
About the ending and the direction the franchise is going:

Spoiler:
I'm pretty damn excited if Apollo's departure means more of a classic Phoenix and Maya-type game. They've been building up to this for three games now. The fact that we didn't get much of her in SoJ just adds to it. I'm confident Apollo won't be gone that long, anyways. It seems inherently necessary to give key characters a rest here and there to avoid killing them off or doing a complete reboot. Maya went away to train, Phoenix had his thing, Gumshoe, Larry, and Franny are in purgatory(ignore AAI), Klavier is hardly relevant, etc. When they do things like this, we appreciate the characters more when they return. as it keeps things fresh. We would have been sick of another Phoenix-Maya game by now, but thanks to the huge turn the franchise took it'll be fresh again. I'm sure it'll only be like this just one game anyways. Apollo will be back soon enough. This franchise is reaching a tipping point with characters. We already saw how difficult it was for them to fit Athena and Simon in this game as it was. Finding ways to give them breaks is acceptable.

Be glad Apollo got one hell of a send off. The game felt like it was going to be another Wright-centered game like Dual Destinies, and it built itself into something awesome starring Apollo. They even let Apollo get the best of Wright when they faced off in court! Good for him. If anything, I was frustrated at how they decided to write Ema off last minute having her stay in Khura'in. That was really weak and laughable how Edgeworth just allows it. I believe this means they're ready to bring Gumshoe back as the detective for the next game. This is further evidenced by the references to him when you present your attorney's badge to Edgeworth as Phoenix. Looking forward to seeing Gumshoe again, I'm just gonna miss Ema.

Also, can we talk about how damn awesome that brief glimpse of the Athena-Maya dynamic was? AA7 doesn't just have to be all about Wright and Maya if Apollo's gone. Maya being an assistant to Athena would be loads of fun -- they both bring a lot of flair and enable each other. Athena still has a lot more growing to do anyways. I'm sure this will allow them to focus more on her development as an attorney considering Apollo pretty much graduated in this game. Who knows, we could even see Trucy as an assistant again, too. I know a lot of us have been itching to see that.

tl;dr:

:godot: The return of classic Maya-Phoenix gameplay?
:godot: The Athena-Maya dynamic is absolute fire. Possible defense team?
:godot: Ema's weak write-off means Gumshoe is probably coming back.
:godot: Giving characters like Apollo/Ema/Nahyuta a break makes the universe more manageable and pushes back an inevitable reboot.
:godot: Athena's role will probably expand now.
:godot: Apollo won't be gone for long.


Spoiler:
Ugh, I really hope not. Cameos and DLCs are one thing. Phoenix and Maya (and the original AA crew) had their time. They are the ones who should have been taking a backseat all this time, Phoenix especially. Unfortunately, Apollo was introduced at Phoenix's expense and never really had a chance. These last couple of games were about building Apollo up as a character and competent lawyer, and giving him a decent backstory. It's about Phoenix passing the damn baton, not tossing a boomerang. Or should be, anyway.

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Spoiler:
I'd have to agree, the best thing for Phoenix to do at this point is be a mentor to Athena. I feel like he failed to capitalize on his opportunity to be a lead character in SoJ, since it turned out that Apollo ended up being the central character.

Edit: On second thought, Phoenix's role ended up as passing the torch, so he did perfectly fine in this game. His name on the game and him appearing most prominently in promotional art gave the impression that he was going to be the lead character.

Same situation as Dual Destinies, but in SoJ the central character (Apollo) was playable in the finale. Athena was not in DD, given her circumstances.

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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
Nurio wrote:
Louie82Y wrote:
About the ending and the direction the franchise is going:

Spoiler:
I'm pretty damn excited if Apollo's departure means more of a classic Phoenix and Maya-type game. They've been building up to this for three games now. The fact that we didn't get much of her in SoJ just adds to it. I'm confident Apollo won't be gone that long, anyways. It seems inherently necessary to give key characters a rest here and there to avoid killing them off or doing a complete reboot. Maya went away to train, Phoenix had his thing, Gumshoe, Larry, and Franny are in purgatory (ignore AAI), Klavier is hardly relevant, etc. When they do things like this, we appreciate the characters more when they return, as it keeps things fresh. We would have been sick of another Phoenix-Maya game by now, but thanks to the huge turn the franchise took it'll be fresh again. I'm sure it'll only be like this for just one game anyways. Apollo will be back soon enough. This franchise is reaching a tipping point with characters. We already saw how difficult it was for them to fit Athena and Simon in this game as it was. Finding ways to give them breaks is acceptable.

Be glad Apollo got one hell of a send off. The game felt like it was going to be another Wright-centered game like Dual Destinies, and it built itself into something awesome starring Apollo. They even let Apollo get the best of Wright when they faced off in court! Good for him. If anything, I was frustrated at how they decided to write Ema off last minute having her stay in Khura'in. That was really weak and laughable how Edgeworth just allows it. I believe this means they're ready to bring Gumshoe back as the detective for the next game. This is further evidenced by the references to him when you present your attorney's badge to Edgeworth as Phoenix. Looking forward to seeing Gumshoe again, I'm just gonna miss Ema.

Also, can we talk about how damn awesome that brief glimpse of the Athena-Maya dynamic was? AA7 doesn't just have to be all about Wright and Maya if Apollo's gone. Maya being an assistant to Athena would be loads of fun -- they both bring a lot of flair and enable each other. Athena still has a lot more growing to do anyways. I'm sure this will allow them to focus more on her development as an attorney considering Apollo pretty much graduated in this game. Who knows, we could even see Trucy as an assistant again, too. I know a lot of us have been itching to see that.

I find one thing strange with what you said...
Spoiler:
In the credits scene, as you mentioned, Ema talks about being dragged to Khura'in by Sahdmadhi, which you interpret as her not showing up anymore, or hardly showing up. But in the same credits scene, Maya talks about how she's going to be very busy as the Master, yet you interpreted that as her having enough time to be assistant for both Phoenix and Athena.


Also she's the DLC investigator SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The DLC takes place like, several months after the main game. May->September


Spoiler:
I feel as though village master in the same stateaway in another country. I wouldn't say we'd see Maya as the main assistant for all 5 cases, but still quite a lot of her. We could also be getting Phoenix+Athena, Phoenix+Trucy, or Athena+Trucy to fill in the holes which sounds like a lot of fun. Since these cases usually don't last more than 2 days, I wouldn't say it's that much of a stretch for her to be the assistant for at least 2-3 cases.

Haven't been paying enough attention to the DLC. I was kinda ignoring it till it got released. Now that it's out today, I certainly will be diving in. If the DLC is canon, which it sounds like it is -- then that definitely changes Ema's situation a bit. With that said, we've seen both Ema and Nahyuta come and go from Khurai'in as they please in the base game. So either Ema's stay was brief, she's still very mobile and capable of leaving Khura'in whenever she's needed, or they're just reusing her since she was already in the game. I admit that this fact weakens my theory of her going on the back burner. I don't want her to be, but I got the sense they were trying to push her aside for another detective at the end of Case 5.:eh?:

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Nurio wrote:
Spoiler:
But that's simply the royal we



OK SO THAT'S WHAT IT IS. It was bugging me because I remembered Yoko from Bravely Second also talked like that.

As for the case itself

Spoiler:
I REALLY LOVED IT! Unlike with some other cases, I felt like I was figuring the plot twists out with the characters. Plus, I really like playing as Apollo because he has a lot less "uuuuum what do I do?" moments than Phoenix.

The first part was really fun. I got scared when the game turned into a survival rpg and I was like, "OH MY GOD I CAN'T MAKE THE WRONG CHOICE I'LL KILL THEM." And I immensely enjoyed Dhurke's character, fell in love immediately. Apollo's near drowning experience was certainly a highlight of the investigation, what with his introspection. I could really feel the character's emotion and I loved it. ALSO BLESS GETTING JOVE JUSTICE'S PICTURE. Now that's DILF.

The trial segment was very cool too, with the whole Phoenix vs. Apollo battle. I snorted when Apollo told Phoenix to shut up and sit down. And Phoenix's last minute bluff about Apollo not feeling any spiritual power had me in stitches. Yes the whole 'Maya's been kidnapped' thing has been overdone but it really didn't bother me too much since the rest of the case was so fun.

The second part got wild. I had already suspected that Rayfa was Amara's kid though at first I had to dismiss it because at the point I thought she was dead and it was impossible to have a 14 yo kid, but then it came swinging back. I had also suspected that Nahyuta had a Defiant Dragon tattoo, and it was super satisfying to watch him reveal it. Also Ga'ran was a pretty obvious final boss but my god her transformation was crazy and her holding Apollo + Phoenix at gunpoint was wild.

Aside from that, I definitely did not see it coming that Dhurke was dead all along, and that actually brought me to tears. I also liked the final twist with Ga'ran having no spiritual powers. It wasn't something I thought about yet it made sense once it was pointed out. Overall, it was a thrilling climax and I really enjoyed the Phoenix-Apollo tag team. I've seen people complain about how Apollo's backstory seems shoehorned except like... it wasn't really his backstory? He just happened to be tied to the people who are central to the case, and that's why I have no trouble accepting this story. Like Apollo being in the fire himself didn't affect the case, it was what his dad saw in the fire with him that turned it over. Besides, I was immensely pleased with him getting so much focus after his own game didn't really revolve around him.

I'm still having mixed feelings about the ending. On one hand, I'm proud of Apollo and this ending is very fitting for the theme of the game. He carries both Phoenix and Dhurke's will within him. On the other hand, I'm sad that the WAA is broken up. However, Apollo's promise to return to Japan keeps me going, and who's the say that AA7 won't just have him pop by like, "Hey I'm here to visit and help out with the WAA a bit." What I hope Capcom DOESN'T do is introduce another member to the WAA. Like come on, juggling three protagonists is hard enough, don't bloat it.

The only real complaint I have is that Klavier is not in the game at all despite being so connected to Apollo. I mean, Apollo leaving the US is a pretty big thing, and I wish we could have maybe got Klavier's feelings on it. Like shoehorn him in Case 4 as the prosecutor and then address it in the ending credits. Otherwise I immensely enjoyed this game and I can't wait to see what the future holds.
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Hoh man credits did roll

Spoiler: Whole Case...Game Even
Wow...they should just stuck "Apollo Justice" as the name on the box as it's completely his story. I'm so happy they decided to give him his own office. It solves several problems with him always living in Nick's shadow and the problem of an increasing character roster. While Klavier didn't exactly go along for the ride, the titbit about Ema going to Khura'in sort of confirms it. There is a team Apollo now, and grounds for Apollo to get his own game! Hell he's even got his own Edgeworth, Larry, Maya and Pearl (Albi counts). With Khura'in they also won't need to worry about really awkward localisations. They could get away with all the far eastern stuff in that country. It's so great, I'd never dreamed he'd get to be in such a position to field the finale case, never mind his own game.

Still let's talk about the game, everything was excellent, like this was an incredible movie. The stakes were high and the decisions meaningful. I don't think I've felt this enthused by a game in a long time. The animations were incredible, the challenges were tense, the enemies were for the most part interesting.

God...I'm just too overcome by wonder at this point to say anything really coherent I'll think on it more.

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Spoiler: Trial Day 2, Pt. 2
HOLY SHIT DHURKE IS DEAD NOOOOOOOOOOOOO


What an absolute punch to the gut that was!
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Spoiler: Trial Day 2, Pt. 2
HOLY SHIT DHURKE IS DEAD NOOOOOOOOOOOOO


What an absolute punch to the gut that was!


And how! What a beautifully executed moment.
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Quote:
Spoiler:
I'm still having mixed feelings about the ending. On one hand, I'm proud of Apollo and this ending is very fitting for the theme of the game. He carries both Phoenix and Dhurke's will within him. On the other hand, I'm sad that the WAA is broken up. However, Apollo's promise to return to Japan keeps me going, and who's the say that AA7 won't just have him pop by like, "Hey I'm here to visit and help out with the WAA a bit." What I hope Capcom DOESN'T do is introduce another member to the WAA. Like come on, juggling three protagonists is hard enough, don't bloat it.


Spoiler:
Yeah, I was feeling a bit wistful seeing Apollo stay in Khura'in. I guess that's a sign that I actually like Apollo as a character... which isn't something I could say after playing his original game. Even though his backstory felt tacked on in this game, I feel like I have reasons to actually care about him now more than before.

And yes, they shouldn't add another defense attorney to the WAA, it'd get too crowded. Having 3 DAs there was a bit too much to handle.

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Danchat wrote:
Quote:
Spoiler:
I'm still having mixed feelings about the ending. On one hand, I'm proud of Apollo and this ending is very fitting for the theme of the game. He carries both Phoenix and Dhurke's will within him. On the other hand, I'm sad that the WAA is broken up. However, Apollo's promise to return to Japan keeps me going, and who's the say that AA7 won't just have him pop by like, "Hey I'm here to visit and help out with the WAA a bit." What I hope Capcom DOESN'T do is introduce another member to the WAA. Like come on, juggling three protagonists is hard enough, don't bloat it.


Spoiler:
Yeah, I was feeling a bit wistful seeing Apollo stay in Khura'in. I guess that's a sign that I actually like Apollo as a character... which isn't something I could say after playing his original game. Even though his backstory felt tacked on in this game, I feel like I have reasons to actually care about him now more than before.

And yes, they shouldn't add another defense attorney to the WAA, it'd get too crowded. Having 3 DAs there was a bit too much to handle.


Spoiler: 6-5
I started AA with AJ 8 years ago, so I have always liked the character and his pals from that game. When I found out he was exiting the stage and starting a new life, it did make me feel very melancholy when I was watching the ending, because I was sad we wouldn't get more adventures with him, Trucy, Ema, Athena, etc.

But I realized that the fact that I had emotions about it made it a really good ending. So I think the fact that you guys feel divided or melancholy about him leaving is a sign of the ending's strength, because you don't feel like "Yeah! Get out of here!" or "He's just leaving because he's bored!". He's there for a reason, and we get a glimpse of his new life. We're sad to see him go, but we know he has a great, exciting life in store for him and at least me personally, that makes a great finale for him. Very bittersweet.

I agree that they shouldn't add more lawyers. People complained about there being too many protagonists in DD and I didn't see it as a problem since that game was so focused on "filler" cases (and while Apollo and Athena had their backstories revealed, it was much smaller of an ordeal/focus than Apollo's was in this game). I definitely felt the "too many lawyers" effect during Case 4. It was a good case, and I really really like Athena as a character, but there was so much going on with Nick and Apollo that I just couldn't care as much in the moment.

Now that it's just Athena and Phoenix I don't think it'll be a problem anymore. Whoever isn't the playable protagonist will probably be the assistant so I think they'll both continue to get adequate screentime

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Just finished the game.

Spoiler:
Apollo Justice standalone title when?

Also, I hope I'm not the only one who's excited at the prospect of Athena getting her own character development arc in the next game, what with the agency no longer being clogged up with employees.

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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Just finished the game.

Spoiler:
Apollo Justice standalone title when?

Also, I hope I'm not the only one who's excited at the prospect of Athena getting her own character development arc in the next game, what with the agency no longer being clogged up with employees.


Sure it may be a far distant positive side effect that's kinda overshadowed by the BIG picture but I've not forgotten that's a thing too.
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I feel like this case missed an opportunity...
Spoiler:
...on using Psych-Locks. I feel like they could've been used on Ga'ran and Rayfa, or maybe Rayfa and Ahlbi.

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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
I feel like this case missed an opportunity...
Spoiler:
...on using Psych-Locks. I feel like they could've been used on Ga'ran and Rayfa, or maybe Rayfa and Ahlbi.

Spoiler:
Psyche-Locks were underwhelming in this game, weren't they? Excluding DLC, I only remember Beh'leeb.

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MBr wrote:
FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
I feel like this case missed an opportunity...
Spoiler:
...on using Psych-Locks. I feel like they could've been used on Ga'ran and Rayfa, or maybe Rayfa and Ahlbi.

Spoiler:
Psyche-Locks were underwhelming in this game, weren't they? Excluding DLC, I only remember Beh'leeb.


Spoiler: Case 3
there was Datz, but yes, I completely agree.

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I wanted to make this joke somewhere, so you guys have to be subjected to it. It's probably already been done a million times though.
Spoiler:
Apollo: I'm fine!
Dhurke: Hi Fine, I'm d(e)ad.

Too lazy for signature...
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Hm. I feel things got real interesting during the final seance... but then it got real straightforward once it began to close off the loose ends and the big developments before the story closes came across as slightly contrived to me. It felt like the game pretended it had told some kind of masterpiece of a tale but it just wasn't quite there, at least not in my head so it felt very cheesy and in the end I think this game felt somewhat like a response to DD, but it is still just kind of like a straightforward DD sequel in terms of storytelling quality. I don't see myself hating on this as much in the future, but it was still this sense of having a promising and super interesting set of developments that didn't really tap their potential.
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Spoiler:
so the first part reminded me of 2-4 and 4-4, and the second part reminded me of 1-4,1-5,3-5 and 5-5.

So the first part is the other even number games' final cass,and the second part is the odd number games' final cases.

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Maybe this was worth its own topic but I doubt it would've garnered many replies in the long run anyway. But let me quote myself from FAQs about something I genuinely meant regarding how case 5 could've been improved IMO.

Spoiler: Case 5 changes
Areas that could be improved or reconfigured

1. The victim(s):
This case has two victims for max mystery and wow-factor, but I thought killing Inga made things weird, especially when it turns out his whole 1930s crime boss attitude had been "misdirection" for a really soft man that cared for an adopted daughter he had overtaken while trying to seize power to... help her... or something (nevermind that!). The thing is, it bothered me how easy it was to tell the culprit in this case, and I felt, if the victim had only been Dhurke there had been the potential for elaborating on what Inga was about, who was the most entertaining plus interesting new face in the game thus far IMHO, and giving you two obviously evil stereotypes of him and Ga'ran to throw suspicion between.
What, Dhurke's death wouldn't have gotten a trial? You're WRONG, because this ties into the next point!

2. The Revolution
By the time the incident happens Dhurke and Datz had already prepared people fully for the revolution, so even if the queen had told Wright and Apollo to stuff it now that their guilty party had been executed, the revolution would break loose and force a trial to happen, but of course, the Queen would accuse Nahyuta like the scumbag she is, reaffirming her Manfred 2.0 cloneness of rubbing the death of her protege's father in his face by making him appear guilty of killing him. Where it would go from here IDK, but I just wanted Inga to be alive and well so he could look awesome and share his life story with us, over a nice cigar while twirling his mustache.

3. What about the Founder's identity?
This was the big one for me that didn't amount to anything interesting. The whole promise of "something to shake Khura'in to its very core" left me with much bigger hopes than "the Queen was a fraud who can't channel". I was rather expecting something like "The orb cannot do shit" and "the Founder was actually Dhurke" who founded Khura'in's law in collab with Law Associate Inga who then overthrew him and his wife and stole his children from him (mostly what happened) and created a myth out of Dhurke in form of the Founder with wise words about abiding law and order to avoid sinning, to scare society from breaking the law and thereby controlling Khura'in into becoming their perfect monarchy.

I haven't thought all implications through. I'm mostly throwing out ideas here. If you disagree these choices would've been better, please tell me why you think so >:)

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linkenski wrote:
Maybe this was worth its own topic but I doubt it would've garnered many replies in the long run anyway. But let me quote myself from FAQs about something I genuinely meant regarding how case 5 could've been improved IMO.

Spoiler: Case 5 changes
Areas that could be improved or reconfigured

1. The victim(s):
This case has two victims for max mystery and wow-factor, but I thought killing Inga made things weird, especially when it turns out his whole 1930s crime boss attitude had been "misdirection" for a really soft man that cared for an adopted daughter he had overtaken while trying to seize power to... help her... or something (nevermind that!). The thing is, it bothered me how easy it was to tell the culprit in this case, and I felt, if the victim had only been Dhurke there had been the potential for elaborating on what Inga was about, who was the most entertaining plus interesting new face in the game thus far IMHO, and giving you two obviously evil stereotypes of him and Ga'ran to throw suspicion between.
What, Dhurke's death wouldn't have gotten a trial? You're WRONG, because this ties into the next point!

2. The Revolution
By the time the incident happens Dhurke and Datz had already prepared people fully for the revolution, so even if the queen had told Wright and Apollo to stuff it now that their guilty party had been executed, the revolution would break loose and force a trial to happen, but of course, the Queen would accuse Nahyuta like the scumbag she is, reaffirming her Manfred 2.0 cloneness of rubbing the death of her protege's father in his face by making him appear guilty of killing him. Where it would go from here IDK, but I just wanted Inga to be alive and well so he could look awesome and share his life story with us, over a nice cigar while twirling his mustache.

3. What about the Founder's identity?
This was the big one for me that didn't amount to anything interesting. The whole promise of "something to shake Khura'in to its very core" left me with much bigger hopes than "the Queen was a fraud who can't channel". I was rather expecting something like "The orb cannot do squat" and "the Founder was actually Dhurke" who founded Khura'in's law in collab with Law Associate Inga who then overthrew him and his wife and stole his children from him (mostly what happened) and created a myth out of Dhurke in form of the Founder with wise words about abiding law and order to avoid sinning, to scare society from breaking the law and thereby controlling Khura'in into becoming their perfect monarchy.

I haven't thought all implications through. I'm mostly throwing out ideas here. If you disagree these choices would've been better, please tell me why you think so >:)

Lol,that's somehow even more elaborate than the actual case. You should join Yamazaki's writing team. >:)
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"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"

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Yeah, you've heard it here first folks. I'm the official Yamazaki replacement at the Ace Attorney team at Capcom!
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Let's Eta some food!

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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:42 am

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linkenski wrote:
Yeah, you've heard it here first folks. I'm the official Yamazaki replacement at the Ace Attorney team at Capcom!

Yay! Can't wait to see what over bloated convoluted plots and confusing plot twists you'll bring to the table! Oh boy! It can't get any better than this!
Hi, I'm Socot. After waking up from a poison-induced coma which I was in for 7 years, I decided to take to prosecuting, hoping I would discover my true identity by doing so. So far, I have gone undefeated,but I have not regained my memory. Will I get it back?

Story CrafterSC's Case Rankings™SC's LinksMysterious QR CodeExtra Lore on Socot

What is a quadrilateral with one 90° angle called? PM me the answer. Those who succeed get a free cookie! :cookie:
Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Edgeworth: I never thought the day would come when we'd be investigating a case side-by-side

Nick: I never thought the day would come when you'd get sentimental on me

Edgeworth: Ngrk! Let's go! We're wasting time!

10/10
Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Let's Eta some food!

Gender: Male

Location: ???

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:42 am

Posts: 3345

He's still embarrassed over his 'WHOOOP!',apparently.
Hi, I'm Socot. After waking up from a poison-induced coma which I was in for 7 years, I decided to take to prosecuting, hoping I would discover my true identity by doing so. So far, I have gone undefeated,but I have not regained my memory. Will I get it back?

Story CrafterSC's Case Rankings™SC's LinksMysterious QR CodeExtra Lore on Socot

What is a quadrilateral with one 90° angle called? PM me the answer. Those who succeed get a free cookie! :cookie:
Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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I actually don't have much to say about this case though. It's big and certainly not bad but there were definitely parts I thought could've been done better. I almost want to say I like the first half of the case better but there are some parts I really liked from the second half so that wouldn't be so true

I did notice that the second half of the case was WAAAAAY easier than the rest of the game. They were constantly doing the DD "Hey maybe you should present this thing?" I don't know if the developers did this because the case was so complex that they needed to guide the player to the right point or if it was just the writer's way of doing things

All in all, it was a memorable conclusion. I knew how long it was in advance so Id didn't really get to play it until I finally had the freetime too. I saved the just the final trial for Friday and I was shocked at how long that alone was. It pretty much took me the entire day to beat it (though I took a long break in the middle). I definitely think the case was justified in its length because of how many twists and turns we had to go through, as opposed to AAI-5 when all the twists were just kind of the mechanics of the murder. So while I was enjoying it, I definitely felt the fatigue so I feel really bad for the people who played the final trial in one sitting

And Paul Atishon was the best. That's all
Re: Case five discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Inga's full name is kinda odd.

I mean, his full name is
Spoiler: Case 6-5
Inga Karkhuul Haw'kohd Dis'nahm Bi'ahni Lawga Ormo Pohmpus Da'nit Ar'edi Iz Khura'in III, does that mean there were two other Inga Karkhuul Haw'kohd Dis'nahm Bi'ahni Lawga Ormo Pohmpus Da'nit Ar'edi Iz Khura'in in the family tree? I know it's pretty much a joke, but it's so weird.


I know I'm thinking way too hard about it. Also odd how the married name counts as part of the real name, since Inga probably shouldn't have had that name until he married Garan, but, eh, the whole "real name" thing is handled pretty poorly.

Spoiler: Case 6-3
I don't think Puhray Zeh'lot should be any less credible than Rheel Neh'mu for example.
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