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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
Southern Corn wrote:
Spoiler: Culprit
Does anyone else think that Nichody is a grey area character?


Spoiler:
What do you mean by this? Like, he's morally grey?

Yes.
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linkenski wrote:
I really don't like Ellen's design. She reminds me of Katherine from AAI2. So generic-looking and her theatrical mannerisms is cringeworthy to me even if it's part of her theme as being an actress :/

Would be way funnier if she was a mean B---- in real life or horribly depressed or something OR JUST NORMAL FOR ONCE >.<, without making her a Will Powers clone or anything of course.

But she's a servant.
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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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No I don't think the culprit is in a grey area at all. Might have a sob story but there's no doubt that their manipulations were in the wrong.

Also I felt they kinda gave up too easily.


Also I wish there were more "whodunnit" as opposed to "howdidit" murders in this game. It irks me when there's only like....one reasonable suspect in a case.
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Well, the series was never conveived as a whodunit game, partly because the main mechanic doesn't really lend itself well for that. It's great for cornering a suspect you know is guilty of something, as you keep catching them on one lie after another, like Columbo (which was a great influence on the series).

The whodunit, in a game form, is about basically making a list of characteristics of the culprit based on the crime scene, and then comparing those to the suspects. So you based on the crime scene you conclude the murderer was left handed, the murderer did action A, implying he had knowledge of B, the murderer had access to C. And then look who of the suspects is left handed, and who knew about B, and who had access to C. It's a different way of solving the problem: it's elimination, not pulling the string. It's obviously not impossible to do a whodunnit with the contradiction mechanic, but there's no synergy, as they work along different lines. That's whenever the AA games do do the whodunit, it's never done with the main game mechanics, but with either other mechanics, or through the 'normal' dialogue.

There are both novels and games that do the whodunnit very good. Many of the early Ellery Queen novels are like that. As for games, you'd be surprised how good of a mystery game the Diagnosis part of Trauma Team (Wii) is: you look symptoms of a patient, check out possible causes for them ("suspects") based on that list of symptoms, do further checks to eliminate 'suspects' and then identify the culprit.
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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title

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I have to agree that
Spoiler:
there's no grey area here. He killed essentially out of spite and jealousy. Hardly the most lofty of reasons.


Also, Columbo is awesome. And the first episode was directed by Steven Spielberg. For a TV show. I mean, can you beat that?
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The whole time before the case released I believed the characters were dressed up and using "time travel pendants" because they were actors in a movie and the mystery would revolve around that. Are you kidding me, that we are actually exploring a crime scene to disprove the supposed time travel of a girl almost out of random? The characters and their designs are beyond terrible in this case. I can't believe this is supposed not to be staged. The crime also reminds me too much of I2-3 with the way the body was found.

Uh, noooh, and now we have an overview map of two imaginatively constructed plot-objects (the bull thingies) and that's going to be important to solve the case, huh? This is going to be a terrible case. Why should i care if one object is shaped like a bull or a cow or whether it's male or female and whether the broken one was in the right spot (or whatever they'll be driving at in the trial). So lame.
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linkenski wrote:
The whole time before the case released I believed the characters were dressed up and using "time travel pendants" because they were actors in a movie and the mystery would revolve around that. Are you kidding me, that we are actually exploring a crime scene to disprove the supposed time travel of a girl almost out of random? The characters and their designs are beyond terrible in this case. I can't believe this is supposed not to be staged. The crime also reminds me too much of I2-3 with the way the body was found.

Uh, noooh, and now we have an overview map of two imaginatively constructed plot-objects (the bull thingies) and that's going to be important to solve the case, huh? This is going to be a terrible case. Why should i care if one object is shaped like a bull or a cow or whether it's male or female and whether the broken one was in the right spot (or whatever they'll be driving at in the trial). So lame.

Yeah,honestly the mystery here is the worst in all of SOJ. Very flat and too simplistic for my liking.
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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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Ash wrote:
Well, the series was never conveived as a whodunit game, partly because the main mechanic doesn't really lend itself well for that. It's great for cornering a suspect you know is guilty of something, as you keep catching them on one lie after another, like Columbo (which was a great influence on the series).

The whodunit, in a game form, is about basically making a list of characteristics of the culprit based on the crime scene, and then comparing those to the suspects. So you based on the crime scene you conclude the murderer was left handed, the murderer did action A, implying he had knowledge of B, the murderer had access to C. And then look who of the suspects is left handed, and who knew about B, and who had access to C. It's a different way of solving the problem: it's elimination, not pulling the string. It's obviously not impossible to do a whodunnit with the contradiction mechanic, but there's no synergy, as they work along different lines. That's whenever the AA games do do the whodunit, it's never done with the main game mechanics, but with either other mechanics, or through the 'normal' dialogue.

There are both novels and games that do the whodunnit very good. Many of the early Ellery Queen novels are like that. As for games, you'd be surprised how good of a mystery game the Diagnosis part of Trauma Team (Wii) is: you look symptoms of a patient, check out possible causes for them ("suspects") based on that list of symptoms, do further checks to eliminate 'suspects' and then identify the culprit.



Hmm you raise a fair point. If the games aren't intended as whodunnits then perhaps I'm judging it unfairly. Then again part of me feels that reveals and conceals have been done well and more often in previous games. I didn't see Kristoph coming or Acro. Maybe this says more about me than the games though.

Part of my fear is that greater effort required of making 3D models means less characters are available. Which would result in cases where there isn't really enough suspects. In which case it would be an intrinsic problem with the platform that couldn't be fixed. I suppose I would need to crunch the data to determine whether the average number of characters in Sprite games compared with those in Model games. Still your explanation does make a lot of sense.
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Re: DLC case discussion thread (tagged spoilers)Topic%20Title
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I don't think the lack of characters in this game has anything to do with the 3D models. In DD there were like 4 new characters per case (counting 5-4 and 5-5 as one big case). Whether they were reasonable suspects or not is irrelevant because the effort to make the models is the same.

I actually have a theory about the lack of characters:
Spoiler: SoJ
-The cases from Japanifornia are just too short to have more characters. They only have one trial each and the average in the series is to cross-examine two characters per trial.
-In Khura'in, the Divinitaion Sèances take a good portion of the trial, and that time can't go to cross-examine a character.
-Half of the DLC is nostalgic fanservice, so they decided to give the returning characters more importance instead of creating new ones.
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They've spent vastly more time in SoJ fleshing out animations, mo-cap and replacing anime scenes with 3D stuff, and generally they have way more animation-related surprises in court than in DD. That's why everything was slightly downsized; less new characters and less 2-day trials.

Also, one reason why this case is decidedly boring on the mystery and story-department is that this is actually the first court segment entirely since 5-1 to not have a main gimmick like Mood Matrix or the Seances to replace regular testimonies. They have to work their way around not being able to rely on visually stunning gimmicks to take over and they have to do more "GYAKUTEN" moments just with text, and they're not managing it that well. Even GK had the luxury of regularly switching up a couple of arguments with some investigation stuff at its leisure.
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I think that says a lot about how the series has evolved to incorporate new gimmicks each time. It's not to lampshade on the mystery in the least, but it does seem to make the effect more obvious when they're all taken out.

I actually prefer when there isn't a circular focus on the gimmick, but I admit that removing them can leave the cases feeling a bit... too ordinary, for lack of a better word? It worked for the first game, but AA is the kind of series that relies on new and different elements each time to draw interest from a wider audience. The novellas, manga, and stage adaptations don't require any gimmicks because they're independent, individual stories. Once you tie everything together, a lot of those cases don't stand out when compared to the canon. (Granted, some of those stories are meh to kinda iffy in the first place.)

So I tend to look forward to new gimmicks in coming games to see what new thing they're introducing aside from more characters, stories, mysteries, and developments.
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My thoughts on this case:

Spoiler:
While I enjoyed the case part of the way through, the mystery disappointed me. The killer was obvious and the solution wasn't clever. There needs to be more new characters in each case, as some have already mentioned in this topic. They did the whole "Sorin is the killer!" thing but it was obvious [to me] it wasn't him. Maybe I've just played too many of these games and I can tell how everything will play out. Unfortunately this will probably end up being an unmemorable case.

But I should say some good things about it. I liked Larry's return and his new animations. I liked the killer's transformation and his doctor-styled insults. Seeing Edgeworth back in court was cool, but I do think he was too harsh on Nick. Seriously, Edgey was trying to roast Nick with every chance he got. Having Maya back as the sidekick and not as a suspect or captive was nice to see. Poor Athena wanted to be relevant in this case so bad but the authors... er, I mean Trucy would not let her.

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Athena basically got the same treatment Apollo got in DD in this case and it makes me giggle
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linkenski wrote:
The whole time before the case released I believed the characters were dressed up and using "time travel pendants" because they were actors in a movie and the mystery would revolve around that. Are you kidding me, that we are actually exploring a crime scene to disprove the supposed time travel of a girl almost out of random? The characters and their designs are beyond terrible in this case. I can't believe this is supposed not to be staged. The crime also reminds me too much of I2-3 with the way the body was found.

Uh, noooh, and now we have an overview map of two imaginatively constructed plot-objects (the bull thingies) and that's going to be important to solve the case, huh? This is going to be a terrible case. Why should i care if one object is shaped like a bull or a cow or whether it's male or female and whether the broken one was in the right spot (or whatever they'll be driving at in the trial). So lame.

I...quite honestly can hardly understand this. Not trying to be a Grammar Nazi, but this argument legitimately escapes me. Are you upset because...the characters aren't movie actors? And...that wooden cows are included?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
linkenski wrote:
The whole time before the case released I believed the characters were dressed up and using "time travel pendants" because they were actors in a movie and the mystery would revolve around that. Are you kidding me, that we are actually exploring a crime scene to disprove the supposed time travel of a girl almost out of random? The characters and their designs are beyond terrible in this case. I can't believe this is supposed not to be staged. The crime also reminds me too much of I2-3 with the way the body was found.

Uh, noooh, and now we have an overview map of two imaginatively constructed plot-objects (the bull thingies) and that's going to be important to solve the case, huh? This is going to be a terrible case. Why should i care if one object is shaped like a bull or a cow or whether it's male or female and whether the broken one was in the right spot (or whatever they'll be driving at in the trial). So lame.

I...quite honestly can hardly understand this. Not trying to be a Grammar Nazi, but this argument legitimately escapes me. Are you upset because...the characters aren't movie actors? And...that wooden cows are included?

Someone's been playing too much Layton :P
Hi, I'm Socot. After waking up from a poison-induced coma which I was in for 7 years, I decided to take to prosecuting, hoping I would discover my true identity by doing so. So far, I have gone undefeated,but I have not regained my memory. Will I get it back?

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I found this case to be incredibly boring. The second trial day kinda just happens - there are no big revelations, no sense of satisfaction, the Thought Route was the most disappointing and lackluster out of all cases that had one so far, the characters were forgettable and shallow, they barely used any music (honestly, I remember Objection playing, like, once in the second trial day?) which made everything feel empty and detached.

The mystery was uninteresting and barely a mystery at all. I think this easily lands on my bottom 3 of cases in the entire series. Disappointing, since Turnabout Reclaimed was actually pretty decent.
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Hahaha, yes, the Thought route.
Spoiler:
The murder was committed using..............The murder weapon!!
What was the murder weapon again........?
We'll find evidence by taking the openable murder weapon and..........open it!! (Seriously, the police hasn't done that yet?)

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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Going for Miles wrote:
Hahaha, yes, the Thought route.
Spoiler:
The murder was committed using..............The murder weapon!!
What was the murder weapon again........?
We'll find evidence by taking the openable murder weapon and..........open it!! (Seriously, the police hasn't done that yet?)


Spoiler:
Yeah, the thought route was pretty bad this time around. Honestly, I wish they didn't include that, and instead went with another testimony from the killer. Since this case is clearly trying to go back to the old AA style, with Larry, Edgeworth, and Maya showing up, I would've enjoyed it if they they had cut the thought route and had the player solve the mystery old-school.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
I...quite honestly can hardly understand this. Not trying to be a Grammar Nazi, but this argument legitimately escapes me. Are you upset because...the characters aren't movie actors? And...that wooden cows are included?

I think the premise is so out there that I expected the mystery to be about some fake-out time-travel like a movie being shot by a studio with actors or something. I just think as a premise it feels stupid to have "time travel" as a mystery out of nothing. Why does that lady have some dorky device that makes her believe she can time travel... in reality (that is reality of Ace Attorney... >_>)? I just feel like they are stretching Ace Attorney really thin with this idea.

I don't know exactly how it would've made more sense within the real world of AA if time-traveling would've still been a mystery had it been movie actors and the time-traveling was part of the script, but regardless that would've still felt less dorky to me. This whole case and its cast is just dorky AF, and I don't even think AA cases are usually dorky, except maybe I2-5 (Premise: Is that boy a godzilla monster that transforms?).
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I know the games are howdidit as opposed to whodunit, but the games usually have enough of a mystery that it can misdirect you as to who the real killer is. I think they did a poor job in trying to make Sorin suspicious.

Contrast that with Reclaimed, where the game went through a lot of effort of setting up Crab as a suspect.
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MBr wrote:
I know the games are howdidit as opposed to whodunit, but the games usually have enough of a mystery that it can misdirect you as to who the real killer is. I think they did a poor job in trying to make Sorin suspicious.

Contrast that with Reclaimed, where the game went through a lot of effort of setting up Crab as a suspect.

That's actually something I really liked about DD's DLC case - I actually bought that Crab was going to be the killer, so there was a legitimate surprise when we learned that Crab didn't do it. In this DLC case, I didn't believe Sorin did it for one second.
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Danchat wrote:
MBr wrote:
I know the games are howdidit as opposed to whodunit, but the games usually have enough of a mystery that it can misdirect you as to who the real killer is. I think they did a poor job in trying to make Sorin suspicious.

Contrast that with Reclaimed, where the game went through a lot of effort of setting up Crab as a suspect.

That's actually something I really liked about DD's DLC case - I actually bought that Crab was going to be the killer, so there was a legitimate surprise when we learned that Crab didn't do it. In this DLC case, I didn't believe Sorin did it for one second.


Personally, I knew from a mile away that Crab was innocent. They made him WAAAAY to suspicious, on par with how the original games made people suspicious IMO. I absolutely loved Crab as a character, but I didn't suspect him.

Spoiler: AA6 DLC
Sorin was done worse, but I don't think it was terrible. This is where they could've used another witness or character, as the only other ones were Nichody and Larry. If Larry had instead been an OC (Happy he isn't, I love his usage in the case) then it'd have been less obvious.
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Maya looks so odd from this perspective
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Is there something wrong with it? She's not actually that short. It's just the very skewed perspective. :v
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Is there something wrong with it? She's not actually that short. It's just the very skewed perspective. :v


I know that, it's the perspective honestly. It's the only time we've seen her in that sort of attorney view and it's new and somewhat odd to me :P
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Something funny I noticed with the artbook stuff
Spoiler:
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Everyone gets a pixel except for Selena.
I only noticed it because I'm pretty sure Azura had one.

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I'm sad that unlike the DD ones,the victims aren't shown. That was hilarious.
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Because then there wouldn't be enough room for two Larrys. Or three Mayas.
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sumguy28 wrote:
Because then there wouldn't be enough room for two Larrys. Or three Mayas.

Along with other such classics like the yak,the coffin!the war'not good,and the speakers.
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I don't understand the people in the first few pages who want to know everything about the case without playing it themselves... Isn't that something you want to find out by yourself?

Secondly, almost everything I wanted to say about this case has already been said, so I'll refrain from that. There's only one specific thing I didn't see mentioned, though the subject of Edgeworth's OOC did come up...
Spoiler: 6-DLC
At some point in the case, I don't remember when, Edgeworth was surprised that Phoenix forfeited a Not Guilty verdict in order to find the truth. Edgeworth. Edgeworth of all people is surprised Phoenix wanted the truth instead of a Not Guilty verdict. What happened to the Edgeworth who taught Phoenix exactly what the court is for in 2-4?
I really thought they simply forgot that characterization... ...and then mere moments later, Edgeworth himself preaches how he wants to seek the truth, not a Guilty verdict. And that just baffles me. The writing staff didn't forget that characterization of Edgeworth. They just... chose to ignore it for that moment?

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I'm not mad! I...I'm just angry.

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Nurio wrote:
I don't understand the people in the first few pages who want to know everything about the case without playing it themselves... Isn't that something you want to find out by yourself?

Secondly, almost everything I wanted to say about this case has already been said, so I'll refrain from that. There's only one specific thing I didn't see mentioned, though the subject of Edgeworth's OOC did come up...
Spoiler: 6-DLC
At some point in the case, I don't remember when, Edgeworth was surprised that Phoenix forfeited a Not Guilty verdict in order to find the truth. Edgeworth. Edgeworth of all people is surprised Phoenix wanted the truth instead of a Not Guilty verdict. What happened to the Edgeworth who taught Phoenix exactly what the court is for in 2-4?
I really thought they simply forgot that characterization... ...and then mere moments later, Edgeworth himself preaches how he wants to seek the truth, not a Guilty verdict. And that just baffles me. The writing staff didn't forget that characterization of Edgeworth. They just... chose to ignore it for that moment?


Spoiler: AAI, AAI2
This was my complaint for the AAI games. They only remember Edgeworth's character development when it suits the plot. The rest of the time, he's an amnesiac or he has the sudden urge to be somebody he's not.

"Descole? You don't mean Mr. I-Like-to-Wreck-Things-with-Mechanical-Monsters-and-Dress-Up-as-Posh-Ladies Descole?" -Emmy Altava

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...NAILED IT
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Jean Descole wrote:
Spoiler: AAI, AAI2
This was my complaint for the AAI games. They only remember Edgeworth's character development when it suits the plot. The rest of the time, he's an amnesiac or he has the sudden urge to be somebody he's not.


Spoiler:
I prefer to think he's just drunk off his ass.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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Yatta.

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Going for Miles wrote:
Jean Descole wrote:
Spoiler: AAI, AAI2
This was my complaint for the AAI games. They only remember Edgeworth's character development when it suits the plot. The rest of the time, he's an amnesiac or he has the sudden urge to be somebody he's not.


Spoiler:
I prefer to think he's just drunk off his ass.

Spoiler: :D
Edgeworth: I'm taking this case because apparently the Prosecutor's Office is filled with cowards.

Phoenix: Edgeworth, are you sure you didn't just forget to tell everyone this case was open?

Edgeworth: I posted it on the door, but no one responded!

Phoenix: Posted what on whose door?

Maya: What did he write, I wonder?


But really, that both Phoenix and Edgeworth are portrayed inconsistently over the games is no news. Yet this game did save grace by officially introducing alcohol into the universe, so we can conclude within the realm of plausibility that they do in fact drink before they go to court.
Help! My parents (Phoenix Wright & Miles Edgeworth) are irresponsible drunks!

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Spoiler: :D
Edgeworth: I'm taking this case because apparently the Prosecutor's Office is filled with cowards.

Phoenix: Edgeworth, are you sure you didn't just forget to tell everyone this case was open?

Edgeworth: I posted it on the door, but no one responded!

Phoenix: Posted what on whose door?

Maya: What did he write, I wonder?



Spoiler: x)
The inside of his own door, probably. And whatever he wrote, it's not like anyone could read his drunk scribble anyway.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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I liked this bonus case better than Turnabout Reclaimed
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Beauty and grace.

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Finally finished the case.

Spoiler:
While I did like the designs of the characters, the plot twists were so obvious. As soon as Ellen said she had traveled back in time, I though to myself, "They fucking staged a second wedding, it's totally possible since it was at night time." I'm kind of surprised no one pointed out that Gloomsbury WAS killed at the correct time (i.e. after the first reception) because two receptions were held and that Phoenix's fog machine theory was wrong. And I knew from the start that Nichody would be the killer, as well as the fact that he was Selena's fiance.

Unlike everyone else, I found the whole Athena and Trucy skit to be boring and dumb. Like, it would have been funny if it was just done once, but they kept doing it over and over and over... I GET IT, WE'RE SHOVING ATHENA TO THE SIDE. Also I just HATED that no one brought up Apollo in any real capacity. I really fucking hate this fear of making references to 'spoilers.' Like come on, it's already made clear that it's post-SOJ, so if anyone gets spoiled because they played it before finishing SOJ, that's their fault.

While I like the courtroom dynamic with Edgeworth better, I'm honestly just plain tired of the original AA cast and like people have pointed out, there's a lot of inconsistencies in their character. Honestly would not play this case again.
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scarlet-flowers wrote:
Unlike everyone else, I found the whole Athena and Trucy skit to be boring and dumb. Like, it would have been funny if it was just done once, but they kept doing it over and over and over... I GET IT, WE'RE SHOVING ATHENA TO THE SIDE.

Not unlike me. I also disliked it a lot. Having it happen just once is fine. But they were really beating a dead horse here. It's also stupid because it makes Trucy look like a tyrant and Athena like a pushover. It would've been better if they had Athena willingly but begrudgingly help Trucy because she promised to prior to this case happening and can't back down on a promise
Now I'm taking it a bit too seriously, but... What Trucy did was literally illegal. And her dad, a lawyer, is just like "haha oh well". That just doesn't sit well with me. Also, how does Trucy keep catching up to Athena, someone who is incredibly athletic. (Athena's physical prowess is something else I dislike, but that's a whole other discussion.)
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I like it when Phoenix is explaining the Magatama, because I could only hear it in my mind as some sort of chant or incantation.
The spiritual power of this magatama allows me to see...
... these mystical locks that appear when someone trying to hide something from me.
They're called "Psyche-locks" and when I see them...
... I simply touch the magatama to try my hand at breaking them.
If I can unlock them,
I'm sure to finally get a straight answer out of him!
Take that!

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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Hi, I'm Socot. After waking up from a poison-induced coma which I was in for 7 years, I decided to take to prosecuting, hoping I would discover my true identity by doing so. So far, I have gone undefeated,but I have not regained my memory. Will I get it back?

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Finally played it on a bus ride today. Seems I'm at odds with the fanbase on this one because I LOVED this case

I caught up on the thread and read some of the complaints and definitely think a lot are very valid. The music cues definitely seemed off and the animations were way too long (especially Ellen turning back into a bride). I presented the pendant to Sorin when we first met and was just treated to the generic "useless evidence" dialogue. Then I talked to him and was told I needed to present something. It turns out this was the pendant, but I ended up presenting almost everything to him and having to wait forever for him to fold a plane each time :/

There were also complaints that the courtroom sections were too bland without gimmicks and I dunno, they were fine to me. But maybe this is because I've gone a month without an AA case so I had an itch
Spoiler:
I was unfortunately spoiled ahead of time that Pierce was the killer and that he was a surgeon. So when Pierce brought up the surgeon in the story, I knew it was him. Apparently this was really obvious anyway and thankfully knowing didn't ruin much for me. Though I really thought that him being a surgeon would tie into the howdunnit in some way and am kind of disappointed that it didn't

A lot of people also seem bothered with the lack of characters making finding the culprit easier but this has never really bothered me with AA. The culprit almost never surprises me anyway and I feel adding an extra character would end up just making an unmemorable unnecessary character. Plus it worked to this case's advantage with how calculating Pierce was the entire time even before the reveal. He almost seemed like a more humbly, lowly Gant. Like someone constantly in control of the situation so lawyers were of no concern to him. I dunno, I really loved his character and he's my favorite villain in the game besides Retinz. He also had a fantastic, truly sad breakdown. I loved his "silent" testimony and I didn't mind the confrontation being short considering we were sort of butting heads the entire case

The howdunnit wasn't that interesting--I appreciated the game revealing the two reception trick the first trial day but I kind of thought "That's it? For a case called Turnabout Time Traveller?" The WHYdunnit was very, very good though and it's why I loved the case so much. I thought it was extremely clever how they tied in Sorin's memory condition making him a "time traveler" and Nichody being unable to move on past the incident either. It's those kinds of touches that make AA extremely unique to me and prevents each case from feeling like a bunch of murder cases. l I dunno, I feel like sometimes the fanbase takes for granted how well-written even the most mediocre case is..................myself included

This is also Larry's best case since 1-4 and I was so happy when he cornered Edgeworth with the decisive evidence after how much of a dick Edgeworth was in the first trial. Though the truth of his drawing was extremely anticlimactic. I thought it'd be an invention or something...

So yeah, I'd say this is my 4th favorite case in the game which might not seem that high considering I said I loved this case, but I also loved 6-1, 6-2, and 6-5 :p

And yes, worst Thought Route ever
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