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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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I don't know if it would be in my top 3, but it's an okay game nevertheless. I personally prefer GK Yamazaki over main series Yamazaki though, but that's just me.
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Yamazaki game rankings:AAI2>>SoJ>>>DD>AAI
IMO
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

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Moddragon22 wrote:
Slammer wrote:
I mean, who would even appreciate something they find stupid and nonsensical?

I really love Monty Python, and that's really stupid and nonsensical.

Monty Python knows exactly how to form a good argument out of all their nonsense though. Typically they have a clear agenda with their skits while these recent games have only gotten murkier and more lost in their own nonsense.
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

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There's so much forced filler dialogue to drag out the story (as in, not dialogue by examining ladders or such, just straight up in-story dialog), feels almost amateurish since it can't get to the point and doesn't really do anything. Andistan'dhin was so freaking hilarious but it's just all around dry so far. I'll continue the game after I finish reading this one Queen book.

I can't remember how Dual Destinies was but I remember how annoying Athena was for sure. This game is just solidifying my opinion how GK2 is the best AA game bar none so far (antagonists, individual and overarching stories). It's about equal to the first and second game at the moment.
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I somewhat agree except GK2 is not my fav of all games, but better than DD and this overall, but I think on the flipside at least there's a sense of fun in these games that I don't think GK2 plays off quite as well. The problem I had with GK2 is how often characters drone on exactly to dabble in the specifics of the ongoing plot and technically substantiate the ongoing context of the story, but it was a draaaag man. This game drags too to the point where I started zoning out, especially during trials, and DD did this as well but maybe not quite as much, but at least I have a more vivid memory of this game in how colorful and varied it is. Case 2 also ended up being an all-around good case, case 4 was genuinely entertaining and case 5 has really good investigation portions I thought. 3 was a mixed bag for me because it has the GK2-syndrome where characters become way too self-indulgent in the plot for too long segments at a time without a single good joke or quip in between.
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A lot of Yamazaki games have large moments where I just blank out due to sheer boredom. DD especially, followed by AAI. SoJ has these moments too, but not as many.
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

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Southern Corn wrote:
A lot of Yamazaki games have large moments where I just blank out due to sheer boredom. DD especially, followed by AAI. SoJ has these moments too, but not as many.

After 4 games I feel that's redundant to even point out. I'd still take another GK2-calibre game any day though. I'd also be cautiously optimistic for a non-AceAttorney Yamazaki game. He was in an interview just recently, probably because he and his GK team has been a big influence in keeping this franchise alive in the last generation but I like to think he's not fully done being in the forefront of games at Capcom. Despite how derivative the plot is in DD and SoJ I still remember both for how they occasionally hit nice strides and how I was genuinely intrigued in moments of the final case about the overarching plot.
I think the grievance I have with his style besides the meandering dialogue is that he talks about how he starts with the twist and builds cases around that, which is good for sparking up a mystery but usually the best writers actually start from the ending and then work their way up to that. Specifically the way cases wrap up is the biggest problem with all games that aren't GK2 I find. It's very hit and miss and usually, for all cases between AA123 I find the catharsis of each case is somewhere around the ending and if not nailing the culprit, it's about the main character of the case getting some kind of reward or life-lesson even when it's cheesy. Sometimes they just skip the hell over all that in AAI-SoJ because too much of the case plot fixated itself solely on how complex the mystery was.
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Sometimes,never the mysteries can be hit or miss imo. E.g. I-3, I-5, I2-2 and even some parts of 5, 5-2, 5-3, 6-6 and a few others. I feel like he focuses more on the mystery than the characters which in some cases really hurt his games.
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

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Ace Attorney mysteries have never even been that great. On replays they were actually below average, worse than quite a few of the short stories that I've read. They're a far cry from the impossible crimes created by authors such as Carr, Christie, Queen, Chase or the suspense and thrill you get from reading Tartt. By the way Erle Stanley Gardner has his long-running Perry Mason mystery-courtroom novel series. Basically Mason is a defense attorney who does everything in his power for his clients, even send them to jail.

Anyway although the books are amazing, the TV series of Poirot adapted some cases fantastically. Such as the adaptation of Murder on the Orient Express in season 12 episode 3. Directing is out of this world. Though Christie's books are ageless unlike majority of the older adaptations (MotOE has a meh adaptation too) as the final novel, Curtain, hit especially hard, even if the mystery wasn't her best. It's more of a symbolistic novel for the final story.
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Hatshinit wrote:
Ace Attorney mysteries have never even been that great. On replays they were actually below average, worse than quite a few of the short stories that I've read. They're a far cry from the impossible crimes created by authors such as Carr, Christie, Queen, Chase or the suspense and thrill you get from reading Tartt. By the way Erle Stanley Gardner has his long-running Perry Mason mystery-courtroom novel series. Basically Mason is a defense attorney who does everything in his power for his clients, even send them to jail.

Anyway although the books are amazing, the TV series of Poirot adapted some cases fantastically. Such as the adaptation of Murder on the Orient Express in season 12 episode 3. Directing is out of this world. Though Christie's books are ageless unlike majority of the older adaptations (MotOE has a meh adaptation too) as the final novel, Curtain, hit especially hard, even if the mystery wasn't her best. It's more of a symbolistic novel for the final story.

Thats why I sometimes say I don't think the mysteries were really the highlight of this series. It's more about the stories that come out of them like in Turnabout Goodbyes. That case is something I remember specifically for the drama and emotional payoff moreso than the mystery, but the mysteries are still functional and fun to solve and sometimes surprising. They're not always intriguing just by themselves not even in Yamazaki and co's games, which is why, when those then have a kinda uninteresting character plot they fall really flat for me.
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Having finished the game again today, I want to offer my updated thoughts:
Spoiler: SoJ
The first case is probably the worst first case of any AA game I've ever played. It's overflowing with exposition that it gets in the way of actually playing the case. I came here to point fingers and object, but like in Dual Destinies, I'm constantly having to go through lots and lots of dialogue before I get to play the game. AA1 got straight to the point, and I hate that in this game it's just like Dual Destinies. But only the first case suffers from an extreme example of this; the rest of the game isn't as bad as it is in Dual Destinies. Still, the first case gives a very bad impression of the rest of the game. It's just boring.

My biggest problem with the game is on Apollo's backstory. Phoenix had been meshing well with the Khura'in cast, and then case 5 comes around and says, "Here's a bunch of preexisting relationships Apollo has in Khura'in," and expects me to accept that.
- Apollo had actually spent 10 years in Khura'in
- He knew Nahyuta as a child, who was different then.
- This is just like Edgeworth, right? Only Nahyuta isn't likable and he hadn't redeemed himself.
- Really, he isn't likable. He just spews childish insults like Rayfa, a child.
Forgive me if I'm suddenly not onboard with this.
The difference between Edgeworth and Nahyuta is Edgeworth had that moment in 1-3 where he cast aside a chance at victory in order to pursue the truth. Blackquill has a similar moment in 5-3 in which he encourages Athena not to give up. But Nahyuta doesn't have that. I suspected something to happen given that in the end of 6-3 he says that he owes Wright a debt, and he even mentions this in 6-4. I presume he was talking about Apollo, but the whole thing gets dropped after he mentions this (and of course Apollo wasn't around in 6-4).
I think that's an issue with the premise. Nahyuta had no opportunity to have an Edgeworth-like moment in 1-3 because he was being controlled by the queen.
Plus, everything just got crammed into 6-5 that Nahyuta's resolution doesn't feel earned. It does for Rayfa because she began to doubt herself in 6-3.
Maya got arrested again. Maya got kidnapped again. *Sigh*
I don't see the significance in Apollo facing off against Phoenix. Phoenix was being coerced and there was no conflict between them anyway. This isn't like Dual Destinies where they had their reasons for going against each other and they did it of their own free will. It feels so contrived, as does forcing Apollo into Khura'in does.

More use of the models in cinematics as opposed to anime cutscenes is great, but it kills my 3DS's poor framerate. Still better than the Vigilantes in PLvsPW, though. I think they could have used the voice actors more in these segments because with less anime cutscenes their role is very little. I think Phoenix only had two lines: when he met Maya and when he left Khura'in on the plane. For what little voice acting there was it wasn't as cringy as Dual Destinies.
Personally, I rank this game below the trilogy, Dual Destinies, AAI2, and Apollo Justice.
My ranking for the cases: 3 > 2 > DLC > 4 > 5 > 1


Edit:
Southern Corn wrote:
A lot of Yamazaki games have large moments where I just blank out due to sheer boredom. DD especially, followed by AAI. SoJ has these moments too, but not as many.

My thoughts exactly. I don't feel comfortable playing those games for a long amount of time, even though I genuinely enjoy Dual Destinies. But with the trilogy, I don't ever blank out. I could play those games all day on the weekend.
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Spoiler: Case 5
Honestly, I'm with you on Apollo's backstory. It came out of nowhere for no good reason and really didn't fit that well. However, I felt that the whole Apollo-Dhurke bond was very good and emotional and kinda made up for that.


To be fair, I also do blank out sometimes while playing Takumi's games (JfA especially). It's just that I do it a lot more often while playing Yamazaki's games.
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The first case was my favorite first case of all the games. I guess I get that people were bothered it took so long to get to gameplay but the story was interesting and there were a lot of good jokes flying around. I really like the fish out of water story and it was a good way to learn about Khura'in and the new gameplay mechanic
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JesusMonroe wrote:
The first case was my favorite first case of all the games. I guess I get that people were bothered it took so long to get to gameplay but the story was interesting and there were a lot of good jokes flying around. I really like the fish out of water story and it was a good way to learn about Khura'in and the new gameplay mechanic

Plus! Plus plus plus plus plus


Spoiler: Killer
DEATH METAL HIPPIE JESUS

I know it's a relatively silly thing but this guy really made the case for me. Best character of SoJ (ok that's an exaggeration but still)

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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

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JesusMonroe wrote:
The first case was my favorite first case of all the games. I guess I get that people were bothered it took so long to get to gameplay but the story was interesting and there were a lot of good jokes flying around. I really like the fish out of water story and it was a good way to learn about Khura'in and the new gameplay mechanic

I just booted the game up on my other 3DS recently and I was pretty surprised I found it to be that long initially. It's not that bad except for how all other first cases all start in the lobby, leading into the courtroom. I'm not sure but I actually feel like Dual Destinies had more dialogue until Phoenix arrives to save Athena's blackout.
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Yeah the main draw of the case to me is how funny it was anyway, so I wasn't too bothered by anything drawn out. Everybody in the gallery shouting death at Phoenix, Payne being all bloodlusted, Phoenix joining on the singing--it was definitely one of the funniest cases in the series to me. I remember the devs saying the reason for Khura'in is that Phoenix needed a better opponent since he's so good now and the case sold me on that idea (which I initially thought was really stupid)
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It's not the funniest to me but maaaybe the campiest which is awesome because I love that shit. Initially I was afraid of the case 1 of this game from hearesay that it was "too extreme" but it has that element of satire to it that Ace Attorney has in all its funniest moments, and friggin Andastan'dihn is just glorious. My only gripe with the case is that the case itself didn't pique my interest too much and I think the Andastan'dihn gag is a bit too much a one-trick pony as the case enters its final stretch.
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I think I'll talk a bit more about this game later on but for now I want to post something I thought was interesting.
Spoiler:
Is this the game with the most assistants? Most games have a designated assistant and maybe one other but here, he have Athena, Rayfa, Simon, Dhurke, Maya, Edgeworth, and Phoenix.

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MBr wrote:
I think I'll talk a bit more about this game later on but for now I want to post something I thought was interesting.
Spoiler:
Is this the game with the most assistants? Most games have a designated assistant and maybe one other but here, he have Athena, Rayfa, Simon, Dhurke, Maya, Edgeworth, and Phoenix.

Don't forget

Spoiler:
Ahlbi and Trucy. That's a lot of people, yeah.

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I remember when screenshots of Ema in Khura'in were revealed, I really hoped she and Phoenix would get to investigate a case together.
Spoiler:
And in case 5, they did. Off-screen.

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^Gotta show off that sepia filter.

Spoiler: More thoughts
I recall at the end of 4-4's trial, Klavier and the judge are having a discussion about the law. Apollo, however, has no input - his inner dialogue is "Someday, I'll know what law is. And I'll fight to change it if I have to!" Fast-forward to SoJ, and that's exactly what he's doing. This might have come from Dhurke, because in a flashback Apollo asks Dhurke why he still wears his badge, and he tells him he does it to remind himself of his goal to change Khura'in's legal system.

You can make T&T comparisons since both games introduce a new part of Phoenix/Apollo's past to move them in a new direction, but the big difference and the issue I have with SoJ's story is that it waits until the last case to reveal all of this. T&T did this in a the first case, a flashback case, and at the end of the case Phoenix hints that this case is connected to something much bigger (DD did this as well).

Of course, Apollo isn't even involved in case 1 unlike Phoenix in 3-1.

I'm reiterating what linkenski said a few pages ago: that there's no build-up to Apollo's side of the story in a narrative sense (maybe case 4 could have done this?).

Also, the feudal setting is not what I think of for Apollo, but that's my opinion.

The whole Khura'in reveal with Apollo was too heavy for me. Apollo lived there for 10 years, with Dhurke, who happens to lead the revolution, and Nahyuta. I could accept parts of it, but the whole thing feels forced. Like they had to give Apollo an Edgeworth-style prosecutor rival so he had the motivation to save them like Athena and Phoenix.

And it seemed like Phoenix was more surprised to learn that Nahyuta was Dhurke's son than that Apollo was raised by him.

The animations are way too long for the new characters. I'm tired of waiting for Nahyuta to sigh, shake his head, and for a butterfly to land on his finger. I'm tires of Nichody pulling his cloth out of his pocket to clean his monocle.

On a similar note, I'm tired of the transformations. By this time we know from a meta-sense that a witness that transforms is the culprit. Name one witness that transforms that isn't the killer. Okay, you got me with Amara.

Ga'ran's transformation was way over the top. I know it was meant to make her look like a spider, but it comes off as plain silly as opposed to hilariously awesome like Metal Jesus.

I think there's an issue with three playable characters. It's too many. DD handled this better because Athena was new and so the plot could involve integrating her into the cast. They didn't rehash that this time, which was good. The developers wanted to make her playable but couldn't work her into the plot, and so 6-4, the most filler case ever, happened. You could remove it and nothing would change. Just keep her as an assistant and let her do her Mood Matrix thing.

As for the music: Phoenix and Athena's court themes are at the top of my list. I don't like Apollo's, however. It's too electronic for my liking. I prefer the orchestral style we got in DD. Cross examination themes are better in SoJ than DD, but DD has better reminiscence, courtroom, and investigation themes. However, the Khura'in music is the best of the whole game.

I'm not sure where I stand on the Divination Séance. I like finding contradictions in statements and there's some good ones here, but the interface is clunky. If it returns in the future I hope it's more intuitive.

Difficulty is higher than DD, which is great. It was challenging for pence.

Visually, I prefer DD over SoJ. SoJ has duller colours for some reason and DD had thicker outlines around the characters. With thinner outlines around the SoJ characters it makes the pixilation on a 3DS more apparent. Models are better, of course. Phoenix doesn't look as dumb as he did in DD.

Also, on the last case: I was expecting the revelation that would "shake Khura'in to its core" would better than "the queen is a fraud." Do something like 5-2 where the mythical figure existed in a different form or something. Or maybe Lady Kee'ra was the real Holy Mother?

There were decent mysteries and turnabouts but I prefer those of other games. But this game gave us the remote murder in 6-2, the suicide in 6-3, and the defendant being a murder victim in 6-5. That was a kick in the teeth.
But who can forget that the murder weapon was udon dough?

Whew
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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
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This was also a problem in AJ, as I recall.

MBr wrote:
^Gotta show off that sepia filter.

Spoiler: More thoughts
I recall at the end of 4-4's trial, Klavier and the judge are having a discussion about the law. Apollo, however, has no input - his inner dialogue is "Someday, I'll know what law is. And I'll fight to change it if I have to!" Fast-forward to SoJ, and that's exactly what he's doing. This might have come from Dhurke, because in a flashback Apollo asks Dhurke why he still wears his badge, and he tells him he does it to remind himself of his goal to change Khura'in's legal system.

You can make T&T comparisons since both games introduce a new part of Phoenix/Apollo's past to move them in a new direction, but the big difference and the issue I have with SoJ's story is that it waits until the last case to reveal all of this. T&T did this in a the first case, a flashback case, and at the end of the case Phoenix hints that this case is connected to something much bigger (DD did this as well).

Of course, Apollo isn't even involved in case 1 unlike Phoenix in 3-1.

I'm reiterating what linkenski said a few pages ago: that there's no build-up to Apollo's side of the story in a narrative sense (maybe case 4 could have done this?).

Also, the feudal setting is not what I think of for Apollo, but that's my opinion.

The whole Khura'in reveal with Apollo was too heavy for me. Apollo lived there for 10 years, with Dhurke, who happens to lead the revolution, and Nahyuta. I could accept parts of it, but the whole thing feels forced. Like they had to give Apollo an Edgeworth-style prosecutor rival so he had the motivation to save them like Athena and Phoenix.

And it seemed like Phoenix was more surprised to learn that Nahyuta was Dhurke's son than that Apollo was raised by him.

The animations are way too long for the new characters. I'm tired of waiting for Nahyuta to sigh, shake his head, and for a butterfly to land on his finger. I'm tires of Nichody pulling his cloth out of his pocket to clean his monocle.

On a similar note, I'm tired of the transformations. By this time we know from a meta-sense that a witness that transforms is the culprit. Name one witness that transforms that isn't the killer. Okay, you got me with Amara.

Ga'ran's transformation was way over the top. I know it was meant to make her look like a spider, but it comes off as plain silly as opposed to hilariously awesome like Metal Jesus.

I think there's an issue with three playable characters. It's too many. DD handled this better because Athena was new and so the plot could involve integrating her into the cast. They didn't rehash that this time, which was good. The developers wanted to make her playable but couldn't work her into the plot, and so 6-4, the most filler case ever, happened. You could remove it and nothing would change. Just keep her as an assistant and let her do her Mood Matrix thing.

As for the music: Phoenix and Athena's court themes are at the top of my list. I don't like Apollo's, however. It's too electronic for my liking. I prefer the orchestral style we got in DD. Cross examination themes are better in SoJ than DD, but DD has better reminiscence, courtroom, and investigation themes. However, the Khura'in music is the best of the whole game.

I'm not sure where I stand on the Divination Séance. I like finding contradictions in statements and there's some good ones here, but the interface is clunky. If it returns in the future I hope it's more intuitive.

Difficulty is higher than DD, which is great. It was challenging for pence.

Visually, I prefer DD over SoJ. SoJ has duller colours for some reason and DD had thicker outlines around the characters. With thinner outlines around the SoJ characters it makes the pixilation on a 3DS more apparent. Models are better, of course. Phoenix doesn't look as dumb as he did in DD.

Also, on the last case: I was expecting the revelation that would "shake Khura'in to its core" would better than "the queen is a fraud." Do something like 5-2 where the mythical figure existed in a different form or something. Or maybe Lady Kee'ra was the real Holy Mother?

There were decent mysteries and turnabouts but I prefer those of other games. But this game gave us the remote murder in 6-2, the suicide in 6-3, and the defendant being a murder victim in 6-5. That was a kick in the teeth.
But who can forget that the murder weapon was udon dough?

Whew

Spoiler:
Well, there's Betty, Uendo, and technically Sarge as well. They transform, but they aren't culprits.

I actually like the lack of outlines in SoJ, it makes the characters look more polished imo.

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My opinion is that making Apollo from Khura'in is the stupidest thing Ace Attorney has done. Plus, it was executed very poorly. No buildup to it narratively, you just go to case 5 and Apollo says, "I'm actually from the kingdom of Khura'in. Did I never mention that?" This is way different than Clay in DD.
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

DetectiveTohru

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I'm struggling so hard with this game right now. Case 2 left a really crappy taste in my mouth- the twin stunt was so predictable and done in an illogical way (in court, really?) and fake reus being even considered to be the real deal especially was just complete nonsense and waste of time. There literally was no effort put into Retinz getting rid of his past as Reus for anyone to buy this (I hope). Case 3 so far (beginning)... *yawn* someone tell me this isn't just the steel samurai in another costume.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Hatshinit wrote:
someone tell me this isn't just the steel samurai in another costume.


B-but...the whole point is that it's a cheap rip off that most Khura'inese people think is original...
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

Calm, pacified attorney

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Slammer wrote:
I don't know if it would be in my top 3, but it's an okay game nevertheless. I personally prefer GK Yamazaki over main series Yamazaki though, but that's just me.

But what's the difference really? If Takumi wrote a GK game, I wonder what would happen :klavier: . Ofc you could mean Yamazaki's style works better for him if he has the looser paced GK formula that doesn't necessitate a full day investigation -> trial -> investigation etc. formula, and he can shove however many characters he needs to make the plot work as he needs to at any given moment. Truth, there are creative limitations to making a mainline game that he hasn't handled perfectly well as a director, but I still wonder what Takumi would do if he took the GK formula because I imagine you wouldn't ever see 20 characters in the same place and maybe I think the pacing would be better, until you reach the ending and the plot only makes half-sense :P
Takumi vs Yamazaki andMissile.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title

DetectiveTohru

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Okay so done with case 3 and it was definitely a move to the right direction. I felt that it was basically an upgraded version of the Kurain village case from Justice for All. I can see that the first day probably pissed many people off considering how it was pretty much hard waste of time but it was nice to have a more golden age-type storytelling going on.
The true murder methods and final truth probably weren't even planned, lol. That's one fatal statue.
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