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Spirit of Justice Cough UpsTopic%20Title
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With the plots and contradictions of Ace Attorney becoming more and more complex and focused on the single contradictions, it's likely that there will be some things that just don't add up when you look at the big picture. This thread is to point out any parts in Spirit of Justice where the writing staff messed up and introduced an unintentional and inexplicable contradiction themselves. These are the Spirit of Justice Cough Ups, as inspired by the Phoenix Wright Cough Ups thread.

This thread will contain spoilers for the whole game!

Just like in that thread, I think it's good to keep the same format, if possible.

Name: (To give the cough-up a title)
Type of cough-up: (Misspelling, inconsistency, impossible situations, alternate case solving, etc.)
Location: (What chapter, who, what, where?)
Description: (What is the matter with it?)

This thread came to mind when Southern Corn brought forth a cough-up in a different thread, so I figured I should make this thread. So, why don't I start with that one? Credit to Southern Corn, of course.

Name: Teleporting Datz
Type of cough-up: Impossible situation
Location: Chapter 6-5
Description:
Datz is still in Japanifornia during the civil trial at 1 PM, yet in the trial after that, we discover that Datz was also at the Khura'in bazaar at 2 PM throwing firecrackers, despite all the main characters just barely reaching Khura'in by 2:45 PM by private jet. This seems only possible if Datz can teleport.

Of course, if you see a fault in a cough-up, feel free to discuss it!
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Nurio wrote:
Name: Teleporting Datz
Type of cough-up: Impossible situation
Location: Chapter 6-5
Description:
Datz is still in Japanifornia during the civil trial at 1 PM, yet in the trial after that, we discover that Datz was also at the Khura'in bazaar at 2 PM throwing firecrackers, despite all the main characters just barely reaching Khura'in by 2:45 PM by private jet. This seems only possible if Datz can teleport.


Not sure if they changed this in the localized version, but I remember that in the original text, the whole deal in Kurain is set the day AFTER the civil trial; Inga specifically says their deal is to be tomorrow at 15:00. That's why it's called the Second Day in the menu.
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Besides, who's to say he can't teleport?
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Lol thanks. I never thought I'd be credited for a post :P

Ash wrote:
Nurio wrote:
Name: Teleporting Datz
Type of cough-up: Impossible situation
Location: Chapter 6-5
Description:
Datz is still in Japanifornia during the civil trial at 1 PM, yet in the trial after that, we discover that Datz was also at the Khura'in bazaar at 2 PM throwing firecrackers, despite all the main characters just barely reaching Khura'in by 2:45 PM by private jet. This seems only possible if Datz can teleport.


Not sure if they changed this in the localized version, but I remember that in the original text, the whole deal in Kurain is set the day AFTER the civil trial; Inga specifically says their deal is to be tomorrow at 15:00. That's why it's called the Second Day in the menu.


That's fair,but the MCs take a whole day to get there,and they chartered a private jet,so how did Datz get there faster than them?

He hid in someone else's suitcase didn't he
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Going for Miles wrote:
Besides, who's to say he can't teleport?



Then he could have just teleported in the palace,kill the royals,and Khura'in would be free. Also,he could have just teleported to the rebel base when he was arrested and case 3 wouldn't have happened.

Unless he didn't teleport intentionally to have the abott killed!

I think I just realised who the bad guy of this game is. :beef:
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Could you say (Plot spoilers)

Spoiler: Case 5
Name: Apollo's childhood
Type of cough-up: When exactly could he meet Clay in Middle school?
Location: Case 5 where he says it's been 10 years since he saw Dhurke
Description: Apollo leaving Dhurke for America 10 years prior to their reuniting contradicts the fact that Apollo met Clay in Middle School?
I think if Middle school in Japan is 13-15 and Apollo left for America at 15 (Or 14, which might actually resolve this), it's a fine line (But it also doesn't explain how he could even make a living alone at 15)



Last edited by SuperAj3 on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Southern Corn wrote:
That's fair,but the MCs take a whole day to get there,and they chartered a private jet,so how did Datz get there faster than them?

He didn't go to the same place as the main cast / he is an Kurain national (it takes AGES in some countries to get in) / maybe he had transport for one ready at the airport. And chartering a plane does not definitely mean you'd be faster in Kurain: if he managed to get a last-minute ticket for a line flight scheduled earlier than Edgeworth's plane (you do need to plan a flight in advance...), he'd still arrive earlier.

There are tons of likely reasons that would have him arrive +/- one hour in town earlier than the main group at the palace.

SuperAj3 wrote:
Could you say (Plot spoilers)

Spoiler: Case 5
Name: Apollo's childhood
Type of cough-up: When exactly could he meet Clay in Middle school?
Location: Case 5 where he says it's been 10 years since he saw Dhurke
Description: Apollo leaving Dhurke for America 10 years prior to their reuniting contradicts the fact that Apollo met Clay in Middle School?
I think if Middle school in Japan is 13-15 and Apollo left for America at 15 (Or 14, which might actually resolve this), it's a fine line (But it also doesn't explain how he could even make a living alone at 15)


Spoiler:
Do they say *exactly* ten years in the localized version? Because in the Japanese text, Apollo explicitly says it's been *more* than ten years. I don't remember where it said it, but I think Apollo was already in Japan before he entered middle school.

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@Ash Eh I guess. Could've explained that better I feel.Thanks for clarifying anyway!

@SuperAj3 I mean at that time he could've been either 14 or 15 since we don't know his birthday...so I guess he has to be 14!
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I've got one.

Name: Blind Audience,etc.
Type:Impossible Occurence
Case:2
Desc: Polly claims that Mistree was pulled up after the dragon set fell into the blade. In this case,how did the audience miss this? And no,the explanation that they were distracted does not suffice. At least one of them should've seen them. And what about Trucy,Bonny,and the creepy cameraman backstage? Did they not see Mistree hit the blade? How did he not make any noise when he was stabbed? The backstage crew would've noticed. And how did he fall back down without anyone noticing?
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Southern Corn wrote:
I've got one.

Name: Blind Audience,etc.
Type:Impossible Occurence
Case:2
Desc: Polly claims that Mistree was pulled up after the dragon set fell into the blade. In this case,how did the audience miss this? And no,the explanation that they were distracted does not suffice. At least one of them should've seen them. And what about Trucy,Bonny,and the creepy cameraman backstage? Did they not see Mistree hit the blade? How did he not make any noise when he was stabbed? The backstage crew would've noticed. And how did he fall back down without anyone noticing?

I did think it was strange we could only see the shadow of Manov, but not Manov himself being pulled up. Same goes for Mr. Hat, really... So in a meta sense, I knew that the game figured it possible since it was already proven to be possible with Mr. Hat.
Also, since the set was used for switching magic, the pulleys are set up in such a way they can pull hard and fast. Taking that into consideration, the blade also would've pierced Manov quickly, killing him instantly, giving him little time to cry out. I also imagine the crew didn't stay backstage, but rather went back to their dressing rooms. That would give Retinz the opportunity to simply lower Manov and set the scene
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SuperAj3 wrote:
Could you say (Plot spoilers)

Spoiler: Case 5
Name: Apollo's childhood
Type of cough-up: When exactly could he meet Clay in Middle school?
Location: Case 5 where he says it's been 10 years since he saw Dhurke
Description: Apollo leaving Dhurke for America 10 years prior to their reuniting contradicts the fact that Apollo met Clay in Middle School?
I think if Middle school in Japan is 13-15 and Apollo left for America at 15 (Or 14, which might actually resolve this), it's a fine line (But it also doesn't explain how he could even make a living alone at 15)


Nope, that's not a cough-up because.

Spoiler: 6-5
Apollo didn't know that Dhurke saved Amara 14 years before SOJ, because he already was in Japanifornia at that time. That means, when he went to Japanifornia, he was around 10 years old. It's possible he could meet Clay in middle school when he was at least 10 years old, right?
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Oh right! I forgot about this one...

Name: Self-incriminating evidence
Type of cough-up: Killer derp
Location: 6-4
Description:
When Geiro killed her master, she arranged the cards to spell out "OWEN 4TH" to incriminate Owen. But that's really strange... She should know that Owen, a scared frail little boy, wouldn't be capable of murder, so why incriminate him of all 4 characters? It also wouldn't make sense, because the police doesn't know about Owen, so there's no reason to suspect that message held any significance. In fact, by planting the message, Geiro only dug her own grave, because the moment it's clear the cards were planted there, the list of suspects becomes... 1. Only Geiro would be a possible suspect, because the others either don't know about Owen, wouldn't self-incriminate (and couldn't due to an unshared memory bank) or are deceased. It's probably one of the dumbest things for a killer to do.

Of course, from a meta perspective, Geiro did this so that the player would know about an Owen so we could investigate and eventually find out about Uendo's split personalities. But that's just bad writing, to let characters do dumb and illogical things for the sake of the plot
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I think Geiru wanted Uendo to think Owen did it, since he doesn't know him (and actually, she succeded at that). I think only her and Toneido knew the truth about Owen. And once you know about Uendo's disorder the message makes sense. Also, she did it in the spur of the moment, so it makes sense that she wasn't thinking straigh.
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luck wrote:
I think Geiru wanted Uendo to think Owen did it, since he doesn't know him (and actually, she succeded at that). I think only her and Toneido knew the truth about Owen. And once you know about Uendo's disorder the message makes sense. Also, she did it in the spur of the moment, so it makes sense that she wasn't thinking straigh.

So, it was to fool Uendo, not the police? That seems a bit strange... You'd want the police to think a certain someone did it, not Uendo.
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Meh, making three personalities think their fourth personality with whom they share a body, who seldom appears and with whom they cannot communicate, is in fact a murderer is a good start to make them think their body is that of a killer. People tend to do weird things in such situations, for example doing more things to implicate themselves (yes, Edgeworth, pick that gun up).
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Nurio wrote:
Southern Corn wrote:
I've got one.

Name: Blind Audience,etc.
Type:Impossible Occurence
Case:2
Desc: Polly claims that Mistree was pulled up after the dragon set fell into the blade. In this case,how did the audience miss this? And no,the explanation that they were distracted does not suffice. At least one of them should've seen them. And what about Trucy,Bonny,and the creepy cameraman backstage? Did they not see Mistree hit the blade? How did he not make any noise when he was stabbed? The backstage crew would've noticed. And how did he fall back down without anyone noticing?

I did think it was strange we could only see the shadow of Manov, but not Manov himself being pulled up. Same goes for Mr. Hat, really... So in a meta sense, I knew that the game figured it possible since it was already proven to be possible with Mr. Hat.
Also, since the set was used for switching magic, the pulleys are set up in such a way they can pull hard and fast. Taking that into consideration, the blade also would've pierced Manov quickly, killing him instantly, giving him little time to cry out. I also imagine the crew didn't stay backstage, but rather went back to their dressing rooms. That would give Retinz the opportunity to simply lower Manov and set the scene

What makes you think the crew wasn't there? Then who pulled Manov up?

Also,Retinz shouldn't have been able to tamper with anything anyway. Where were the police during this anyway? And I thought he said they didn't allow him in?
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Southern Corn wrote:
What makes you think the crew wasn't there? Then who pulled Manov up?

Huh? That was a key point in the case. Manov was pulled up remotely (through a remote control) by Retinz.

Southern Corn wrote:
Also,Retinz shouldn't have been able to tamper with anything anyway. Where were the police during this anyway? And I thought he said they didn't allow him in?

When he said they didn't allow him in, I think he already had done his business and was acting innocent.
As for how he got in in the first place, I'm not sure. I guess he was there before the police were?
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Nurio wrote:
Southern Corn wrote:
What makes you think the crew wasn't there? Then who pulled Manov up?

Huh? That was a key point in the case. Manov was pulled up remotely (through a remote control) by Retinz.

Actually, I think you're both wrong. Mistree was attached to the dragón so he was pulled up when Betty lowered it. That was part of the prank. The only unscripted thing was the sword that skewered the victim.
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Southern Corn wrote:
Lol thanks. I never thought I'd be credited for a post :P

Ash wrote:
Nurio wrote:
Name: Teleporting Datz
Type of cough-up: Impossible situation
Location: Chapter 6-5
Description:
Datz is still in Japanifornia during the civil trial at 1 PM, yet in the trial after that, we discover that Datz was also at the Khura'in bazaar at 2 PM throwing firecrackers, despite all the main characters just barely reaching Khura'in by 2:45 PM by private jet. This seems only possible if Datz can teleport.


Not sure if they changed this in the localized version, but I remember that in the original text, the whole deal in Kurain is set the day AFTER the civil trial; Inga specifically says their deal is to be tomorrow at 15:00. That's why it's called the Second Day in the menu.


That's fair,but the MCs take a whole day to get there,and they chartered a private jet,so how did Datz get there faster than them?

He hid in someone else's suitcase didn't he


He stowed away...

Plus he's a paratrooper..

He didn't wait for the plain to land and just jumped out with a parachute above the Bazaar
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luck wrote:
Nurio wrote:
Southern Corn wrote:
What makes you think the crew wasn't there? Then who pulled Manov up?

Huh? That was a key point in the case. Manov was pulled up remotely (through a remote control) by Retinz.

Actually, I think you're both wrong. Mistree was attached to the dragón so he was pulled up when Betty lowered it. That was part of the prank. The only unscripted thing was the sword that skewered the victim.
dragón...?
Hmm, are you quite sure? I thought he was hooked up to the same line as Mr. Hat (after Mr. Hat was pulled up and his line was lowered again for Manov). I don't think the system even works with a counterweight like you suggest
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Nurio wrote:
dragón...?
Hmm, are you quite sure? I thought he was hooked up to the same line as Mr. Hat (after Mr. Hat was pulled up and his line was lowered again for Manov). I don't think the system even works with a counterweight like you suggest

Oh no,I see it now. Manov and the dragon were tied to the same rope,so Betty probably loosened the ropes holding the dragon,and then when the dragon fell,the force sent him up into the sword. I don't really remember anything about your 'remote control' in the game though....

Retinz still confuses me though....

Also shouldn't you add all this to the OP?
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Haha I've got it. A plothole to break the game!

Spoiler: BIG Case 5 Spoilers
So we know when a spirit is channelled the medium changes to take their form. However this is limited.

In case 5 Amara channels Dhurke so she can frame him for murder and to escape the court. However the limitations of channelling mean this should not work. Case in point....Pearl Fey. When Pearl Fey channels Mia her hair remains brown. When Maya channels Mia her hair remains black. This is why Case 5s channelling does not work. While its believable that Maya's hair could be made up like Dhurke's, Amara's is bright silver.

There's no way she could fully disguise as Dhurke so easily.

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Pierre wrote:
Haha I've got it. A plothole to break the game!

Spoiler: BIG Case 5 Spoilers
So we know when a spirit is channelled the medium changes to take their form. However this is limited.

In case 5 Amara channels Dhurke so she can frame him for murder and to escape the court. However the limitations of channelling mean this should not work. Case in point....Pearl Fey. When Pearl Fey channels Mia her hair remains brown. When Maya channels Mia her hair remains black. This is why Case 5s channelling does not work. While its believable that Maya's hair could be made up like Dhurke's, Amara's is bright silver.

There's no way she could fully disguise as Dhurke so easily.


Spoiler:
Think back to the hairspray in Inga's room and how Amara was "dressed" when she entered the tomb in the first place.

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Nurio wrote:
Oh right! I forgot about this one...

Name: Self-incriminating evidence
Type of cough-up: Killer derp
Location: 6-4
Description:
When Geiro killed her master, she arranged the cards to spell out "OWEN 4TH" to incriminate Owen. But that's really strange... She should know that Owen, a scared frail little boy, wouldn't be capable of murder, so why incriminate him of all 4 characters? It also wouldn't make sense, because the police doesn't know about Owen, so there's no reason to suspect that message held any significance. In fact, by planting the message, Geiro only dug her own grave, because the moment it's clear the cards were planted there, the list of suspects becomes... 1. Only Geiro would be a possible suspect, because the others either don't know about Owen, wouldn't self-incriminate (and couldn't due to an unshared memory bank) or are deceased. It's probably one of the dumbest things for a killer to do.

Of course, from a meta perspective, Geiro did this so that the player would know about an Owen so we could investigate and eventually find out about Uendo's split personalities. But that's just bad writing, to let characters do dumb and illogical things for the sake of the plot

Eh, given the Ace Attorney world's history of charging people with things they couldn't possibly have done (hi Machi Tobaye), it probably wasn't that bad of an idea. =p

In all seriousness, I don't think it was as crazy of an idea as it seems in retrospect. While it became fairly obvious to the court when Owen was actually "drawn out," it's worth keeping in mind that the reason Uendo switched the cards was because he was genuinely afraid that Owen might have committed the crime. In other words, Uendo himself wasn't fully aware of Owen's capabilities. The only people that were aware that Owen existed, let alone the fact that he was a five year old, were Geiru and the victim, Taifu. This means that Geiru could pin the crime on Owen, and due to a lack of shared memory, make Uendo seriously think Owen had committed the crime with no one to tell him that Owen couldn't.

All it would take would be some digging into Uendo's medical background to find his disorder, and he would be suspected. And since Uendo wasn't aware that Owen wasn't incapable of murder, he would probably try to hide Owen's existence rather than draw him out (which, in a way, he did). If Uendo never suggested how to draw Owen out, he likely never would have surfaced, keeping the suspicion squarely on Uendo. If memory serves, it took quite a bit of creative thinking from Athena in court before she suggested that alcohol was a factor. Considering how lax investigations in the Ace Attorney world are at times, I don't think it's all that far fetched.

Meanwhile, I'll throw out something that's not really a plothole, but has bugged me all the same...

Spoiler: 6-5
When Dhurke was in Japanifornia...why didn't he just tell Phoenix that he was being channeled by Maya and save the poor lawyer a ton of stress? Going alone to the "hostage exchange" was being pretty cavalier with someone else's body, too.

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Ash wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Haha I've got it. A plothole to break the game!

Spoiler: BIG Case 5 Spoilers
So we know when a spirit is channelled the medium changes to take their form. However this is limited.

In case 5 Amara channels Dhurke so she can frame him for murder and to escape the court. However the limitations of channelling mean this should not work. Case in point....Pearl Fey. When Pearl Fey channels Mia her hair remains brown. When Maya channels Mia her hair remains black. This is why Case 5s channelling does not work. While its believable that Maya's hair could be made up like Dhurke's, Amara's is bright silver.

There's no way she could fully disguise as Dhurke so easily.


Spoiler:
Think back to the hairspray in Inga's room and how Amara was "dressed" when she entered the tomb in the first place.



Nngh that's so clever. The prosecution didn't even bring that up as a defence but it feels like that item was placed there solely to explain this in hindsight.
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Pierre wrote:
Ash wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Haha I've got it. A plothole to break the game!

Spoiler: BIG Case 5 Spoilers
So we know when a spirit is channelled the medium changes to take their form. However this is limited.

In case 5 Amara channels Dhurke so she can frame him for murder and to escape the court. However the limitations of channelling mean this should not work. Case in point....Pearl Fey. When Pearl Fey channels Mia her hair remains brown. When Maya channels Mia her hair remains black. This is why Case 5s channelling does not work. While its believable that Maya's hair could be made up like Dhurke's, Amara's is bright silver.

There's no way she could fully disguise as Dhurke so easily.


Spoiler:
Think back to the hairspray in Inga's room and how Amara was "dressed" when she entered the tomb in the first place.



Nngh that's so clever. The prosecution didn't even bring that up as a defence but it feels like that item was placed there solely to explain this in hindsight.


Actually, the developers noted they left things for the players to notice on a second playthrough. This was one of those things.

Spoiler:
It's no coincidence that Inga, Druk, Maya and Amara are designed to all have long hair, and that three of them long, black hair (Inga's hair is tied to his back).

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Southern Corn wrote:
Nurio wrote:
dragón...?
Hmm, are you quite sure? I thought he was hooked up to the same line as Mr. Hat (after Mr. Hat was pulled up and his line was lowered again for Manov). I don't think the system even works with a counterweight like you suggest

Oh no,I see it now. Manov and the dragon were tied to the same rope,so Betty probably loosened the ropes holding the dragon,and then when the dragon fell,the force sent him up into the sword. I don't really remember anything about your 'remote control' in the game though....

Retinz still confuses me though....

Also shouldn't you add all this to the OP?

You have to take into account that the guys that kicked everyone out at first weren't the police, but the theater staff. It's likely that they let Retinz in without asking many questions, since he's the boss and all.

It's still weird that nobody apparently looked up at any moment whatsoever, though. That bothered me as well.
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JGLP wrote:
SuperAj3 wrote:
Could you say (Plot spoilers)

Spoiler: Case 5
Name: Apollo's childhood
Type of cough-up: When exactly could he meet Clay in Middle school?
Location: Case 5 where he says it's been 10 years since he saw Dhurke
Description: Apollo leaving Dhurke for America 10 years prior to their reuniting contradicts the fact that Apollo met Clay in Middle School?
I think if Middle school in Japan is 13-15 and Apollo left for America at 15 (Or 14, which might actually resolve this), it's a fine line (But it also doesn't explain how he could even make a living alone at 15)


Nope, that's not a cough-up because.

Spoiler: 6-5
Apollo didn't know that Dhurke saved Amara 14 years before SOJ, because he already was in Japanifornia at that time. That means, when he went to Japanifornia, he was around 10 years old. It's possible he could meet Clay in middle school when he was at least 10 years old, right?





The Japanese version of the AA5 artbook says that Apollo and Clay were 13 when they met.
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So I've got two. Excuse the incoming text wall...

Name: Inga's Psychic Phone.
Type of cough-up: Inconsistency.
Location: Case 5, Amara's Tomb.
Description:
Spoiler: Case 5 Spoils
So in the Séance vision showing Inga's final moments, we see him sipping wine with left hand. He gets up and turns to the painting, when man's voice is heard, which you quickly deduce is a voice of a man through Inga's phone.
The inconsistency lies. How did Inga answer his phone without any form of audio, visual or physical cue? Nowhere in the vision did he hear a ringtone, nor did he feel a vibration or even look at his phone. But then you might say, perhaps he was on the phone the entire time during the vision. However, that can't be the case. Since he sipped wine with his left hand, the phone must be in the right hand, yes? No. Because later as he falls, he pulls a gun fro his right hand. Meaning it was free. Also, if you look at the crime photo, the phone is on his left, right next to his hand.
Besides, if he were to be on the phone the entire time, would the vision not show a mans voice and other noises earlier than when he walked up to the painting?


Name: Inga (Again) What..
Type of cough-up: Illogical actions.
Location: Case 5, Amara's Tomb (Again)
Description:
Spoiler: More Case 5 Spoilers
So, 3 days before Minister Inga dies, Dhurke enters the tomb to save Maya, where Inga shoots 3 bullets into him and misses the last. His gun has only 4 chambers. His gun is empty. He runs away.
Then, 3 days later,(Or thereabouts) he is drinking the wine while waiting to meet Dhurke for the Orb. So then, why would a guy like Inga come to such crucial meeting unarmed? No wait he WAS armed, he just.. DIDN'T add bullets back into his gun for like three days? Why would he bring an empty gun to meet a "dangerous" revolutionary head?

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Misokrattz wrote:
So I've got two. Excuse the incoming text wall...

Name: Inga's Psychic Phone.
Type of cough-up: Inconsistency.
Location: Case 5, Amara's Tomb.
Description:
Spoiler: Case 5 Spoils
So in the Séance vision showing Inga's final moments, we see him sipping wine with left hand. He gets up and turns to the painting, when man's voice is heard, which you quickly deduce is a voice of a man through Inga's phone.
The inconsistency lies. How did Inga answer his phone without any form of audio, visual or physical cue? Nowhere in the vision did he hear a ringtone, nor did he feel a vibration or even look at his phone. But then you might say, perhaps he was on the phone the entire time during the vision. However, that can't be the case. Since he sipped wine with his left hand, the phone must be in the right hand, yes? No. Because later as he falls, he pulls a gun fro his right hand. Meaning it was free. Also, if you look at the crime photo, the phone is on his left, right next to his hand.
Besides, if he were to be on the phone the entire time, would the vision not show a mans voice and other noises earlier than when he walked up to the painting?


Name: Inga (Again) What..
Type of cough-up: Illogical actions.
Location: Case 5, Amara's Tomb (Again)
Description:
Spoiler: More Case 5 Spoilers
So, 3 days before Minister Inga dies, Dhurke enters the tomb to save Maya, where Inga shoots 3 bullets into him and misses the last. His gun has only 4 chambers. His gun is empty. He runs away.
Then, 3 days later,(Or thereabouts) he is drinking the wine while waiting to meet Dhurke for the Orb. So then, why would a guy like Inga come to such crucial meeting unarmed? No wait he WAS armed, he just.. DIDN'T add bullets back into his gun for like three days? Why would he bring an empty gun to meet a "dangerous" revolutionary head?

I'm more inclined to believe that the Water Mirror doesn't show every single thing a victim notices around them, as it would clutter the interface. This may be less of an inconsistency than being purposely planned.

As for the other one,
Spoiler:
He never fired off a bullet in that WM sequence, so we can't know for sure whether or not he did or didn't reload his gun. Either way, he pointed it at his adversary in his dying moments, so it'd be safe to assume he did.

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
He never fired off a bullet in that WM sequence, so we can't know for sure whether or not he did or didn't reload his gun. Either way, he pointed it at his adversary in his dying moments, so it'd be safe to assume he did.

Well, Ema does say the pistol is empty when you investigate. And I doubt Ga'ran would unload his gun and take the bullets with her as she had zero reason for that
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Misokrattz wrote:
Name: Inga's Psychic Phone.
Type of cough-up: Inconsistency.
Location: Case 5, Amara's Tomb.
Description:
Spoiler: Case 5 Spoils
So in the Séance vision showing Inga's final moments, we see him sipping wine with left hand. He gets up and turns to the painting, when man's voice is heard, which you quickly deduce is a voice of a man through Inga's phone.
The inconsistency lies. How did Inga answer his phone without any form of audio, visual or physical cue? Nowhere in the vision did he hear a ringtone, nor did he feel a vibration or even look at his phone. But then you might say, perhaps he was on the phone the entire time during the vision. However, that can't be the case. Since he sipped wine with his left hand, the phone must be in the right hand, yes? No. Because later as he falls, he pulls a gun from his right hand. Meaning it was free. Also, if you look at the crime photo, the phone is on his left, right next to his hand.
Besides, if he were to be on the phone the entire time, would the vision not show a mans voice and other noises earlier than when he walked up to the painting?


I dont exactly get how what you said points out an inconsistency.
Spoiler: Case 5 Seance Vision
Inga was on the phone with his right hand. He fell, dropping the phone and freeing his right hands. Furthermore, since we don't even see how the phone fell, it IS possible for the phone to have fallen on his left side, As for the lack of sounds before walking up to the painting, Nurio brought up a good point in the case 1 discussion. The Séance shows exactly what the victim experienced and how they took in the events. What I mean by this is that the victim filters out some details that are deemed unnecessary by the natural human mind. This is why we don't see the victim occasionally blinking in the vision. It could be that the conversation he heard before walking up to the painting was considered fluff and unneeded by the Minister, resulting in him filtering it out. But then, the conversation took a turn and Inga actually paid attention, resulting in what we saw and didn't see.

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Nurio wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
He never fired off a bullet in that WM sequence, so we can't know for sure whether or not he did or didn't reload his gun. Either way, he pointed it at his adversary in his dying moments, so it'd be safe to assume he did.

Well, Ema does say the pistol is empty when you investigate. And I doubt Ga'ran would unload his gun and take the bullets with her as she had zero reason for that

Don't forget that Dhurke wasn't supposed to arrive until an hour later. Inga seems so relaxed because he really was caught by surprise. He propably pulled his gun as a reflex.
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Nurio wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
He never fired off a bullet in that WM sequence, so we can't know for sure whether or not he did or didn't reload his gun. Either way, he pointed it at his adversary in his dying moments, so it'd be safe to assume he did.

Well, Ema does say the pistol is empty when you investigate. And I doubt Ga'ran would unload his gun and take the bullets with her as she had zero reason for that


^ That exactly. I know he didn't actually shoot the gun, but Ema said the pistol was empty after when you investigate it, and it's just like.. why would he bring an empty gun? :ron:

Apollo4Justice wrote:
Spoiler:
Inga was on the phone with his right hand. He fell, dropping the phone and freeing his right hands. Furthermore, since we don't even see how the phone fell, it IS possible for the phone to have fallen on his left side, As for the lack of sounds before walking up to the painting, Nurio brought up a good point in the case 1 discussion. The Séance shows exactly what the victim experienced and how they took in the events. What I mean by this is that the victim filters out some details that are deemed unnecessary by the natural human mind. This is why we don't see the victim occasionally blinking in the vision. It could be that the conversation he heard before walking up to the painting was considered fluff and unneeded by the Minister, resulting in him filtering it out. But then, the conversation took a turn and Inga actually paid attention, resulting in what we saw and didn't see.


I agree it would technically be possible for it to be in his right hand, and fall to his left, however, then we would see it cross his vision in the Seance as he fell if that were the case wouldn't' we? The phone is so close to his face. :adrian: And it just seems unlikely considering how the crime photo was drawn. If the phone were to be in his right hand, they would just draw the phone on the ground on his right.
And what you said about the victims filters things out, that's actually a really neat suggestion and it makes a lot of sense! :will:
Like how in the vision he doesn't feel his clothes touching his skin, but that would only work for minor things. I doubt one of his lackeys calling him and reporting suspicious behaviour he spotted wouldn't take his attention.

It's probably as Rubia said where it was a developers choice to not clutter the screen with so much Hubbub, but it still is a bit odd to me. :grey think:
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Misokrattz wrote:
I agree it would technically be possible for it to be in his right hand, and fall to his left, however, then we would see it cross his vision in the Seance as he fell if that were the case wouldn't' we? The phone is so close to his face. :adrian: And it just seems unlikely considering how the crime photo was drawn. If the phone were to be in his right hand, they would just draw the phone on the ground on his right.
And what you said about the victims filters things out, that's actually a really neat suggestion and it makes a lot of sense! :will:
Like how in the vision he doesn't feel his clothes touching his skin, but that would only work for minor things. I doubt one of his lackeys calling him and reporting suspicious behaviour he spotted wouldn't take his attention.

It's probably as Rubia said where it was a developers choice to not clutter the screen with so much Hubbub, but it still is a bit odd to me. :grey think:

However, there IS one situation where we wouldn't see the phone cross his vision. This one situation existed the whole time, actually.
Spoiler: Case 5
Inga fell, landing flat on his face. The ground took up the entirety of his vision, remember? This is why we don't see "Dhurke" walking up to him and why he's already standing there when Inga looks back up. This can be applied to the phone as well. If he was looking at the ground, logic would follow that he wouldn't see the phone. As for the phone call, this is just speculation on my part but what I think is that the suspicious behavior his subordinate was reporting didn't seem all that suspicious to Inga. Perhaps he thought the reported behavior was just a normal thing to happen in Khura'in. I have no way to prove this, of course, as we don't know the contents of the call. But then the subordinate reported something else, something far more suspicious, taking Inga's attention back. Considering Inga's distaste of the revolutionaries, perhaps the subordinate reported Datz Are'bal at the Baazar, which would be something an officer of Khura'in would report, considering Datz's current status.

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Spoiler: 4-4, 6-5
Name: Jove Justice's Death
Type of cough-up: Inconsistency
Location: 4-4, 6-5
Description: In 4-4, Spark Brushel says that Apollo's father was killed on stage in an accident, but in 6-5 we learn that he was killed in the assassination attempt of Amara at her palace.

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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Type of cough-up: Inconsistency
Location: 4-4, 6-5
Description: In 4-4, Spark Brushel says that Apollo's father was killed on stage in an accident, but in 6-5 we learn that he was killed in the assassination attempt of Amara at her palace.

I wouldn't say that's much of an inconsistency as it is how news gets warped when it travels, especially with someone as elusive as Jove (seeing how it took Dhurke a long time to get any info on him).
Jove was performing for the royal couple, so that can easily be seen as "on stage", and a fire is quickly seen as an accident, especially since no one got convicted for arson
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Nurio wrote:
and a fire is quickly seen as an accident, especially since no one got convicted for arson


Except the fire was seen as an assassination attempt, seeing as that was one of the charges that Dhurke was accused of.
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Nurio wrote:
and a fire is quickly seen as an accident, especially since no one got convicted for arson


Except the fire was seen as an assassination attempt, seeing as that was one of the charges that Dhurke was accused of.



Ah but remember Dhurke beat the charges of Assassination. It was only trumped up charges of fabricated evidence that drove him into hiding.


In the absence of any definitive verdict it could have appeared as an accident in international news.
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Also, Thalassa was the only person outside of Khura'in that knew what happened to Jove (and we don't know if she knew the details) and she lost her memory before Brushel started investigating the Gramaryes. Even if she told the rest of the Troupe, that's the kind of thing you want to keep hidden from nosy reporter, since it would only lead to more uncorfotable questions.

So there was no reason for Spark Brushel to know the truth about this.
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