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Episode 11: "Turnabout Goodbyes - 4th Trial"Topic%20Title
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This is a general discussion thread for the eleventh episode of the Ace Attorney anime, "Turnabout Goodbyes - 4th Trial".


Summary wrote:
Phoenix explains his history with Edgeworth. After some investigation, the trial continues with Marvin Grossberg returning to shed more light on the DL-6 incident.

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Personally, I think this episode should have stuck to the investigation before the trial, so it could focus on DL-6 exposition with Grossberg, Edgeworth talking about the DL-6 incident in the Detention Center, the earthquake, and getting tased by von Karma. Then the next episode can deal with the final trial: cross examine the parrot and then the trial on DL-6.

Will that scene appear in the next episode? Perhaps von Karma tases Phoenix and Maya to get the letter back. But Phoenix made a copy that the judge was reading off of when he presented it. It had better appear, because although Phoenix made a stupid move in showing von Karma the letter, it's a key moment for Maya as a character in the first game.

Having Grossberg testify about the DL-6 incident was suitable, I suppose.

What I did like about this episode was how it showed the meeting between Yogi and Hammond and how much of a jerk Hammond was.
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I quite liked this episode, though I must lament that it looks like we won't get the stun gun attack. Still, Phoenix and Maya poking around Yogi's shack with Gumshoe was fun (I loved that Maya would jump into Phoenix's arms while Phoenix was jumping into Gumshoe's), Grossberg actually testifying to the court definitely punched up his involvement (at least for me), and the flashback to the 4th grade incident was pretty solid. Seeing Young Maya and Mia during the channeling bit was also pretty good, plus we got a good idea of just how much of a tool Hammond was. I am however also bummed that Nick didn't say, "Let the parrot take the stand!" because that's one of my favorite lines from any AA game.

Phoenix and Von Karma seemed to go off model quite a bit this episode, especially a couple of times where it looked like Phoenix was squished into frame, and meanwhile Von Karma's nose kept changing size.
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It looked terrible, but I found it enjoyable.

I don't really have much to say about this episode though.

7/10
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Okay, the artwork had been improving, but this week it's just depressing. Mayoi's magatama at 09:39 isn't even a '9' shape. If you're gonna hire inexperienced animators, at least give them some training. :nixiesob:
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I usually am the first one to whine about any differences in movie/anime adaptation of any book/game etc., but this time I'm really curious about the changes they did in the anime. Why did they let Phoenix to keep von Karma's letter? Why did they omit the scene with the taser? It was such an important moment in the game - not only to show von Karma's true colors, but also to show Maya further loosing her self-confidense. In the anime it's her how gets all the ideas. Was the taser scene omitted in order to hide that von Karma is behind writing the letter? But why? So that we wouldn't know so early that he is the true culprit? I really doubt that there are many people who watch this anime and didn't play the game (really, if I didn't play the game before, I would stop watching this anime after 2-3 episode - because of the animation, the rushed action and those airbending objections...).

What I loved about the episode was the scene of channeling Gregory Edgeworth, where he kept asking about Miles. It really made a lot of sense (he was his dad, after all, he wanted to know if his was all right) and was quite heartbreaking :nixiesob: .

The second scene that I loved was Yanni Yogi's confession. It wasn't just a story, like in the game, but a series of flashbacks. We could see that he was devastated, broken, begging for everyone to believe him... Really, I think it helped his characterisation.

I was quite dissapointed in the school trial flashback... In the game this scene seemed more emotional (the music helped A LOT) - Phoenix said he was crying and here? He didn't. I don't say that you have necessarily cry to show how sad and confused you are, but compared to the game, the school trial didn't have such am impact. And why, WHY they gave school Miles such a voice?? Really, a bunch of adult people didn't hear this beforehand and didn't think that this deep voice doesn't suit a little boy :grey: ??

I won't talk about the animation, everybody knows it's one of the show biggest flaws.
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Hit and miss as usual. The idea of bringing in Grossberg to testify was good. The collaborative investigation of the hut was ok. Missing the taser was very bad.

But what bugs me the most is that the summoning of Polly wasn't done well. In the game von Karma suggests it as a throwaway joke. Here it's Phoenix's idea from the get go. It was a desperation move in the game, but here it's, well, still a desperation move, but not with the same impact.

The second thing that bugs me is that we don't get Edgeworth's subtle and incremental "dreams" and the conflict of emotions within him that they cause. That was a key part of the story, building up to this extra act. In the game Phoenix saw it coming. Here? Edgeworth had maybe one flashback and never spoke of it. And in general, Edgeworth has been awfully quiet in this entire story arc. He wasn't very talkative in the game, but this is taking it too far.

The expanded view on Yani Yogi's story was really nice. It helps sell him and his motive.
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I like how this episode handled Yogi. Who else noticed Polly saying, "Polly, I love you. I love you."?

Yogi was also in the preview for the next episode. Perhaps he'll testify about DL-6?
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This episode was really intense and maintains a good level of suspense, which makes me look forward to the next episode a lot. We finally get to see the whole flashback of the class trial, and it wasn't just thrown in randomly but fitted the context. I think this is the best episode so far. The only thing is the deep voice of Miles as a kid, which was pointed out already, seriously, what 4th grader has a voice like that?
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Blademaster_Orca wrote:
This is a general discussion thread for the eleventh episode of the Ace Attorney anime, "Turnabout Goodbyes - 4th Trial".


Summary wrote:
Phoenix explains his history with Edgeworth. After some investigation, the trial continues with Marvin Grossberg returning to shed more light on the DL-6 incident.


First one thing has been solved, now the other to be the finally cliffhanger.
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I had a whole list of things to say, but I see that everything I wanted to say has literally already been said by someone or other.

The animation is terrible. Maybe even the worst we've had so far. I usually don't even notice the bad animation, but this time I noticed it everywhere. Yuck.
The flashbacks for both Yanni Yogi and the classroom trials were done really well. It had definite impact. But yeah... Miles's 10-year-old voice is... Yuck.
Taking out the taser scene was a huge mistake. And Von Karma really lacked character. The way he reacted to the Polly and 1228 coincidences in game was way different. Here in the anime he just said "It's a coincidence".

And yeah, then there's summoning Polly. It was such an awesome moment where Phoenix took up on Von Karma's sarcasm.
As henke said, it showed some real desperation, but also, it showed that even Von Karma needs to watch out what he's saying, because anything he says can be used against him.
On top of that, after Von Karma offered it himself in the games, he can't really object to it. But in the anime, he could easily have objected against summoning a parrot... ...but he didn't.
Lastly, with the way Polly was handled in court, it didn't feel as absurd as in the games. In the games I remember thinking "Oh God, I can't believe we're seriously going to summon a parrot". But in the anime, it seemed almost... standard fair. There was a mild surprised reaction from the judge, but that was it...
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My God, the animation was really choppy in this episode, the characters seem to have lost the ability to stay on model.

Anyway, I liked how they handled this episode, though I didn't like that they took away the confrontation with von Karma at the police station, like you say. I agree that von Karma lacked character in this episode; and one small detail that I didn't like was that they gave the line of "two coincidences at the same time seems more like a pattern to me" to Phoenix instead of the Judge. It was a cool moment for him, but oh well.

And great idea having Grossberg as a witness, explaining the DL-6 case. I liked that a lot. It was nice to see how concerned seemed Gregory Edgeworth about his son's safety when he was being channeled.
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So I'm the only one who thought this episode was shit? Really?

No real build-up to Edgeworth's confession, it pretty much comes out of nowhere

No stun-gun and therefore no character development for Maya, besides her first appearance and the beginning of this case, she's just been there to act goofy

Having Polly testify didn't feel nearly as desperate as it did in the game, it's pretty much Phoenix going "Oh hey let's ask the parrot" and the Judge is just "k sure"

Also no token resistance from von Karma on the ridiculous idea of bringing a bird in to testify

On that note, in general von Karma doesn't seem to have nearly the menace he did in the game, most of the time I almost forget he's even there

Bringing Grossberg in just to explain what DL-6 was about seemed like a waste; why couldn't Phoenix just relay what he'd learned?

Yogi's confession scene was good but that's about it

Not the worst episode but probably the most disappointing for me, I had hopes after the first episode of 1-4 that things would end strong but now forget it

I'll be back when/if they get to T&T, animated Dahlia is the only thing I can look forward to now
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
So I'm the only one who thought this episode was shit? Really?

Far from it. I thought 1-4 was pretty much set from its first episode on, and the most decisive reason why they cut out so much in the previous episodes was to expand a bit on this case. When the first episode of 1-4 came along, I had high hopes. It was well paced, the art was relatively consistent with quality, and the choice of direction was well adapted from the source material. It was looking up and I expected the anime team to finally get their heads together.

Then, the second one came with a drastic drop in quality and balance again, but the changes showed early. There was still a chance to recover. I figured, maybe they'll change it up enough so that it would still feel fresh and attractive, even if the quality is still shaky between episodes.

Now, as we continue to dredge through later episodes, they've come to detract even further with changes that cut down on character development and the drama, thus weakening the entire impact of events and revelations. Even the wind blasts have become throwaway motions that add nothing to the actual progression of the trial. Changes are to be expected with adaptations, but when they cut out too much that held the foundation of the original story, it just looks sloppy no matter how I look at it.

I agree with all your complaints, though I'd add that even Yogi's confession didn't stand out enough. It was decent, but highly overshadowed and dissipated as quickly as Gumshoe's monthly salary. And it was one of the truer and more stable, thus better, moments.

I'm still looking forward to the second game, since that game's atmosphere much better matches the feeling this anime has been going for, but so far, it's been ranging from decent enough for hopeful prospects to outright boring and unoriginal.

This anime really should have gone a whole different direction and made original cases with the familiar cast and introduce them that way. They could even write cases that have connections or references to past cases from the games, so new and old AA fans could enjoy it all the same.
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Reading thoughts on the anime week after week, I'm glad I made the decision to drop it when I did around episode 4. I was planning on giving it another go if the reviews had started consistently getting more and more positive week after week, but I've honestly seen nothing but mixed to negative reviews with some apologists thrown in there for some flavor.

I'm just really disappointed. I've been a fan of this series for almost 11 years now. This series getting an anime, to me, was a testament of how far the series has come from being so niche to hitting the mainstream market. I was pretty happy about that and had decent hopes for it. I probably chock it up to being disillusioned, but I expected more from the anime. Not, at least from what I've seen, something that seems more shoddy and rushed. I understand it's not some high budget anime, but the decisions in terms of story and the terrible art direction has highly disappointed me as a fan.

After 11 weeks of constantly seeing things like bad art and disappointment in terms of story direction, I honestly can't see how anyone could apologize for this anime anymore.
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Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Bringing Grossberg in just to explain what DL-6 was about seemed like a waste; why couldn't Phoenix just relay what he'd learned?

I didn't think it was a waste, but it did seem odd to me. Because I always thought that in the games, only the Prosecutor has the power to summon witnesses. The Defense can only suggest, but the Prosecution has to agree with it. (And that's also why it was so great that Phoenix took Von Karma up on his mockery to summon Polly in the games.)
But here, Phoenix could ask to summon a witness on two occasions and the Judge just immediately approved it. I understand that this is closer to an actual court where both lawyers can summon witnesses, but I liked how in the games, it seems the two lawyers have pretty distinct rights.
I mean, it has never been said that the Prosecution has the right to cross-examine. So, what happens when the Defense summons a witness... The Prosecution can't ask them questions?

dullahan1 wrote:
with some apologists thrown in there for some flavor.
dullahan1 wrote:
I honestly can't see how anyone could apologize for this anime anymore.

Oh, come now. "Apologist" is such a buzzword nowadays used to demean opposition (just like "fanboy" and "defender"). It's a term people use for "people who like something I don't like", and it's rather petty.
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Nurio wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
with some apologists thrown in there for some flavor.
dullahan1 wrote:
I honestly can't see how anyone could apologize for this anime anymore.

Oh, come now. "Apologist" is such a buzzword nowadays used to demean opposition (just like "fanboy" and "defender"). It's a term people use for "people who like something I don't like", and it's rather petty.


I agree with Nurio. Anime could have better animation and be done a bit differently, but I enjoy it a lot despite that. I will certainly watch in again and I WOULD PAY to see any filler episodes (which I usually hate in other animes). And I see many, many positive reviews or posts from fans who, like me, like the anime despite it's flaws.
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@Nurio: Please don't lump me in with others who have that kind of mindset. I don't use such terms loosely. When I use the term apologist, I more mean those who are in the constant mindset of telling others week after week to just stick around for just one more episode because they're sure it's going to get better. I don't have a problem with people liking things I don't. If they like this anime and honestly believe it to be good, then that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But if they know it's terrible and yet they want to defend it just because they're a fan of the series or whatever, then that's different.

I'm sorry, but honestly in my opinion, the anime is one of the poorest things in media to have come out of the Ace Attorney franchise. I at least expected something along the lines of the quality of the movie and the official mangas and doujin compilations that we got here in the west. I really wanted the anime to be good. I really wanted it to be something that I could enjoy and fanboy over. But it's not. It's had a few moments here and there, but it's overall disappointing. I just really feel let down as a long time fan of the series.

@Kiva: If you legitimately enjoy the anime, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that.
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Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


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dullahan1 wrote:
@Nurio: Please don't lump me in with others who have that kind of mindset. I don't use such terms loosely. When I use the term apologist, I more mean those who are in the constant mindset of telling others week after week to just stick around for just one more episode because they're sure it's going to get better. I don't have a problem with people liking things I don't. If they like this anime and honestly believe it to be good, then that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But if they know it's terrible and yet they want to defend it just because they're a fan of the series or whatever, then that's different.

Okay, then sorry for assuming. I've just seen so many people call me an apologist just because I like something.
That said, I actually haven't seen that many people say to "just stick around for one more episode because it's going to get better".

dullahan1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but honestly in my opinion, the anime is one of the poorest things in media to have come out of the Ace Attorney franchise. I at least expected something along the lines of the quality of the movie and the official mangas and doujin compilations that we got here in the west. I really wanted the anime to be good. I really wanted it to be something that I could enjoy and fanboy over. But it's not. It's had a few moments here and there, but it's overall disappointing. I just really feel let down as a long time fan of the series.

I think we all hoped for it to be just a bit more than what we got. No one is really denying that.

Sligneris wrote:
Spoiler: Image
Image

Ha! I was wondering when someone would do this. I was even thinking of doing it myself...
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Nurio wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Spoiler: Image
Image

Ha! I was wondering when someone would do this. I was even thinking of doing it myself...


I don't get this joke, what does this mean?
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Kiva wrote:
Nurio wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Spoiler: Image
Image

Ha! I was wondering when someone would do this. I was even thinking of doing it myself...


I don't get this joke, what does this mean?

The reference.
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My best guess is that they're trying to leave room for "Rise from the Ashes" and they're slowing the pace of Edgeworth's "defrosting" accordingly. He's still arrogant, proud, and cold. He hasn't revealed anything to Phoenix. He's even brusque about it when he says he's paying Maya's bail.

Thus far only his DL-6 nightmare has shown the emotional strain he's under. Next episode will humanize him a bit more. I think the scene from the opening credits where he's walking on the shore and Phoenix runs to catch up with him will be incorporated into the show. But he's not going to thaw out entirely until the end of the Damon Gant misadventure, and even then it's going to be ambiguous enough that you could easily believe he left because his pride was hurt or because he was too cowardly to face the future.
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They're probably going to skip Rise from the Ashes, 12 or 13 episodes is standard for a half-season and 1-4's last part is episode 12
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ouboros wrote:
Okay, the artwork had been improving, but this week it's just depressing. Mayoi's magatama at 09:39 isn't even a '9' shape. If you're gonna hire inexperienced animators, at least give them some training. :nixiesob:


Giving the animators training isn't something that's really a possibility unfortunately, animators can barely make a living off of drawing 300 drawings a month so taking time off for training isn't exactly the best decision they could make. A-1 Pictures aren't going to train the animators because they aren't in-house animators, all of the staff on A-1's shows are for the most part freelancers (with the exception of some inbetween animators and their CG team I believe). Unless you were to support the Animator Dorms Project *plug for that* https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2016 ... rters--2#/ *End of said plug* or another project set up to help animators with money problems in Japan the only way for animators to improve is by doing more and more work, and improving as they do.

Another thing that has to be brought into consideration is the fact that the show's animation quality may not be the cause of untalented staff, but rather the production's abysmal scheduling.
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Huh. Didn't think it was possible to feel even more bad for Yogi.

Regarding proportion issues- Nick had some seriously monstrous hands at one point.
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I'm not that happy with this episode, because, well... First, the animation was strange, and I also hoped for the 4th grade flashback to be better. Young Miles... looked a bit strange and scary somehow and... maybe behaved a little too much like post-DL6 Edgeworth. But I really liked those Steal Samurai things. Those are transmitters of some kind, aren't they? I think that's a pretty cool idea.
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Viktoria von Karma wrote:
Those are transmitters of some kind, aren't they?

Transmitters? What do you mean? I thought they were just key chains
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But didn't Maya call them "Signal Samurai" or something like that? Maybe you press a tiny button on one and then the other one beeps if they're close enough to each other or something? At least that's how I imagine it...
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Viktoria von Karma wrote:
But didn't Maya call them "Signal Samurai" or something like that? Maybe you press a tiny button on one and then the other one beeps if they're close enough to each other or something? At least that's how I imagine it...

Oh, you're right she called it that. But I dunno if that means they're transmitters of some kind.
We'll probably see in the next episode, though! That's likely where they'll introduce these keychains, and if they don't mention they're transmitters then, I think it's safe to assume they're just ordinary keychains
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I assumed "Signal" was the series or type (Steel Samurai, Nickel Samurai, Zappy Samurai, or any of the Samurai that Jack Hammer played, etc), not that it was functional as a communications device.
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Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:01 pm

Posts: 1032

Yep, that's what I thought as well
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