Court Records

Episode three discussion thread
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Author:  Bolt Storm [ Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Episode three discussion thread

This is the discussion thread for DGS2 episode three, The Return of the Great Departed Spirit! Please use spoiler tags when discussing any plot points of the episode that haven't been officially announced.

Author:  Bolt Storm [ Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Due to the interconnected nature of DGS2, it's not really a surprise that the individual case threads are getting a bit neglected... but man, I want to talk about this case.

I think this is ultimately my favorite case in the game; it has everything you want from an AA case (good impossible mystery, memorable witnesses, strong backstory, crackerjack climax) and from a DGS case (some great Joint Reasoning segments, a super strong sense of place, a fun jury.) Cases 4 and 5 of course have most of the major plot reveals and everything associated with that, but I feel like this case keeps things at a semi-reasonable scale while still tying into the bigger picture and being exciting.

In fact, if I had to take a guess... I feel like this case was probably planned to be the final case of DGS2 in the event of a trilogy.

Spoiler: 2-3
Obviously they would need to shuffle around some plot stuff, but the core reveals - the Professor was a Japanese man, Asougi is alive, Dr. Sithe is the killer - all feel like stuff that would've been the conclusion to a middle chapter focused on the World's Fair.

Dr. Sithe in particular is a little odd in 2-3 as it stands today, because catching her is an electric moment [god when the pursuit overture kicks in for the first time], but everything about her character screams that she was supposed to have more to do before going off to jail. She seems set up to be an ongoing rival throughout a game whose loyalties and morality could remain somewhat in doubt, but here they had to fast-forward to her being the killer.

Asougi's reveal here would also set up a potential DGS3 better. One of my main issues with DGS2's character writing is how quickly Ryuu and Susato get over Asougi's revival - if the plan was originally for him to return at the end of game 2 and be around for all of game 3, then Takumi would have had much more time to work through this character dynamic. Instead, his reveal feels a little off today ("oh I guess he's amnesiac, we won't pursue this at all" followed by "oh Asougi said he had something to do, guess we'll wait without trying to contact him for nine days."

Author:  BigKlingy [ Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Bolt Storm wrote:

Spoiler: 2-3
Dr. Sithe in particular is a little odd in 2-3 as it stands today, because catching her is an electric moment [god when the pursuit overture kicks in for the first time], but everything about her character screams that she was supposed to have more to do before going off to jail. She seems set up to be an ongoing rival throughout a game whose loyalties and morality could remain somewhat in doubt, but here they had to fast-forward to her being the killer.

I haven't even seen any of this case yet apart from spoilers on the culprit, and I agree with you.

Spoiler: 2-3
My first reaction to seeing the spoilers was "Wait, they made Courtney Sithe the murder in her first appearance? Really?!"

I had her pegged as a potential villain from the moment I saw her, but pre-release material built her up to be a major recurring character. I was thinking Case 4 killer at the very least, maybe even overall Big Bad. I can definitely see her role being rushed when the trilogy got squashed down to a duology. "Main coroner at Scotland Yard who's pushing for innovation in forensic science" deserves way better than being a one-off "killer of the week".

Author:  Merfol [ Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Actually, I think case 2-3 should be the last case for the second part of "trilogy". And in the real second game, Ryutarou (who is this guy, by the way, still THE MISTERY :edgey: ) was created to play much bigger role than he plays now in DGS2. He should be standing in court instead of Ryuunosuke, because Ryuu was forbidden from standing in court for 6 moths. And in duration of those 6 months, some cases should be existed, in which Sithe pulled some strings against our company.

Author:  BigKlingy [ Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Just watched the end of the Day 1 trial. And HOLY CRAP WOW!

Spoiler: DGS2-3
The "sadistic choice" of "You either prove your client's life's work is a lie, or he goes to jail for murder". Ryunosuke can't make the choice because "either way, he's betraying his client", and then...

"It's not about what you're betraying. It's about what you're protecting."

SUSATO!!! And she Susato-drops some sense into him!!

And then namedropping Enoch Drebber, who I noticed didn't appear in the first day of investigation at all.

I love this case already, and it's only the FIRST DAY. (I don't think I'm even at the "really awesome Joint Reasoning" big yet) What is it with Case 3 in a lot of the recent AA games being really amazing? I loved AAI2-3, DGS1-3 and SoJ-3, and now this.

Author:  Snowthefirst [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Case 3 has definitely been the craziest case so far. And can I just say? Benjamin Dobindough has to be the funniest defendant I've ever seen. He's annoying, but in that endearing way that Ron Delite from 3-2 was. And his theme is quirky and goofy just like he is. And I was caught off guard when...

You go to his cell in the during the Day 2 investigation and saw that he covered the wall of the cell in equations. Related: I can't imagine Benjamin hanging around Barok in university. That mental image is just too much for me.

Whatever else you might say about Courtney Sithe, she is a fascinating character with a haunting theme. And Enoch... I don't know what I can say about Enoch without spoiling, so back in the folder I go.

I'm pretty sure Enoch is a steampunk android, with how he's always creaking. Also: What in the flying hell was that second Joint Reasoning? Since when can Sherlock Holmes control gravity? XD And the end of the investigation... wow,
that was a real shock.

Well, there are my scattered thoughts about Case 3. Might share more later.

Author:  BigKlingy [ Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Finally finished watching the full case and making summary notes/partial translations. Oh boy that took a while. But it's a testament to how much I love this case that I was willing to spend maybe 5 or so hours so that people who can't read Japanese at least have some idea what's going on.

So yeah, I love this case. It seems a lot of the recent AA games have Case 3s that I really love, AAI2 and SoJ's Case 3's are also my favourites in their respective games and among my favourite cases period, and now this one joins their ranks. However, I have a few nitpicks.

First, I feel like the defendant was kind of under-used. He's your pretty typical "eccentric scientist" character with not much new done with it, and he pretty much ceases to be relevant entirely after the first day. Him being Barok's old university friend also isn't explored nearly as much as it could be. Although

Spoiler: DGS2-3
I love how Barok is like "You. Leave country. Boat. Germany. NOW." after the trial, he's gotten pretty paranoid of that death curse.

I also feel like it was kind of a waste to give him his own "Reminiscence" theme ("Shattered Formulas"). I think it was only used twice or so, and
Spoiler: DGS2-3
Nothing in Benjamin's personal backstory per-say is relevant to the mystery, apart from working with Drebber.

This really became one of those trials where you wondered what possible case the prosecution could still have against the defendant in the later stages of the trial. However...

Spoiler: Big DGS2-3 Spoilers and also Dual Destinies DLC
I LOVED how this actually played into the final twist, that everything seems wrapped up and the Judge is about to declare the defendant Not Guilty... but something feels off, and Ryunosuke objects and demands the trial continue because they don't yet know the full truth of the case. And Sithe REALLY wants that Not Guilty verdict... obviously she's still hiding something. And what could be worth confessing to being an accomplice to hide? She's the actual murderer!

It's kind of like an inverted Turnabout Reclaimed. The lawyer postpones the verdict because there's still one unanswered question, but the final result is proving someone GUILTY rather than innocent.

On the villain

Spoiler: DGS2-3
s. First Drebber. Drebber is a pretty fun "love to hate", "blatantly evil from the moment you first see them" character. I liked how a big part of the case was just FINDING the guy, slowly finding out his connections to the Professor case, that Joint Reasoning, and is reveal, complete with AWESOME theme song. Seriously, this might be in my top 10 character themes in the series. The shock when he reveals you only stopped "that" time bomb... and explosion. (Did those police officers at the crime scene actually die?) Really made me want to see him go down in the trial.
Speaking of the trial, his testimonies were pretty decent, finding some clever, non-typical ways to try and weasel his way out of suspicion, though in the end it was really Madame Rozaik who enabled us to get him. And then the whole accomplice thing with Courtney Sithe.

I thought his backstory was well done, tying into his reasons for committing the crime in a plausible way. However... the fact that he blames Meningen for ruining his life due to his article exposing him as a grave robber and getting him expelled from university I feel is a little hard to sympathize with, since while Meningen is certainly a bad person, Drebber wouldn't have been expelled if he wasn't grave robbing in the first place. He really brought it upon himself. It's like a bank robber blaming the police who caught them for ruining their life. That may be the point though, as Ryunosuke calls him out on his hypocrisy at the end of the trial, pointing out that in getting revenge for his own stolen future, he didn't care that he was stealing Dobinbough's future.

As said earlier, I REALLY feel like Sithe was supposed to be a recurring character who doesn't get revealed as a killer until late into the game. It's a bit disappointing that she ended up being a one-off "killer of the week". But even then, I thought she was a good villain. She reminded me of Dee Vasquez a bit: very subdued, cold and grounded, up to having a not very over-the-top breakdown. That plan of confessing everything in order to end the trial early, as I said before, was great, and the big reveal that she was more than just an accomplice was an amazing moment. Though granted, Drebber was so blatantly, obviously evil that him not being the actual killer was almost expected.

However, I felt like proving her motive could've been done better. They did something that's usually considered a big no-no in the AA series: requiring you to remember a throwaway line of dialogue in the investigation that isn't in the Court Record. Admittedly it's a multiple choice question so you'll probably hit on the answer by trial and error anyway, but when I first saw "Which of these words points to Sithe's motive: Iron Mask, Lancet (Scalpel), Screwdriver" my reaction was "HUH?!". It felt like a very weird way to present that. I'm assuming they avoided giving you the ledger in her lab as evidence because it'd be a giant "she's the killer" red flag, something I hate it when AA cases do. But there... just feels like there had to have been a better way to convey it. When the flashback happened everything made sense to me, but still... it was kind of a sour point in an otherwise epic finale.

As for other characters

Spoiler: DGS2-3
Runba Marmarch and Gotts were just kind of... there. I think this sub-series and the Layton crossovers are the only games in the series to have trial-only characters (excluding trial-only cases, of course), so it felt kind of weird seeing two full characters with animations show up out of nowhere in the first trial day, then disappear forever afterwards. I know this case was packed with characters to begin with, but I feel like you should've at least met them briefly in the investigation. Their testimonies advanced the plot well, but their appearance still felt very sudden, and their exit just as much. I thought Gotts was hilarious though. "Don't blame me, blame whoever made the camera" was great.

Conette Rozaik... or however you spell it. I ended up liking her more than I expected. She never testified in the first trial and didn't play a big role in the first Joint Reasoning, so I was worried that they'd "waste" a character with a cool design and theme song on being only there to introduce the concept of wax figures to the plot. But then she got called to the stand in Day 2, and proved instrumental in getting Drebber. I do find it a BIT convenient that she remembers so much about that night 10 years ago though. Also, her description of rigor mortis was creepy.

Though that leads me to something. This doesn't have much to do with her exactly, but... if the Professor's identity is supposed to be a secret, why did they sculpt his face on the wax figure? They handwave it as a "rule" of Madame Rozaik's Waxworks that they have to capture a person's EXACT likeness or something but... it feels like a very dangerous thing to do, considering the Professor's face is a national secret. Surely the British government wouldn't want to risk some random person breaking open the wax figure's helmet and finding out the Professor's identity. I know Madame Rozaik has the only key, but this still feels a bit handwavy just so they can have a dramatic reveal at the end of the trial.

"Inspector" Lestrade was great, and Toby is pretty cute. I feel like we'll be seeing more of her later though, so I can't give full thoughts on her now.

And now thoughts on the "epilogue" after the trial is wrapped up.

Spoiler: DGS2-3
I agree that this feels like it was meant to be Case 5 of a second game, and a lead-in to a third. EVERYTHING about this last segment just screams "cliffhanger for the next game". I can easily imaging the game ending on Asougi's "We will meet again. [Bang, cut to black]".

The reveal scene was pretty good though, voice acting was well done (Susato is certainly very emotional to see Asougi again though, dare I say it felt kind of shippy) and it worked well as a cutscene despite being in-engine rather than anime. The info-dump on the sword kinda took me out of the moment a lot though, especially since I'm pretty sure they already explained the sword before. (Though this is Ace Attorney we're talking about, they love their redundant flashbacks)

Despite all those nitpicks, I want to stress that I LOVED this case. I have no idea how the next ones are going to top it. The game could've ended here and I'd be okay with it.

In case people want it, my rough translation of "that moment". The Bit Where The Departed Soul Returns.

Spoiler: Not Really Relevant to DGS2-3 But One For DGS2 As A Whole
Ryunosuke: This is... the Professor's true identity!
Barok: As I thought...
Ryunosuke: I never thought about it before. That the true identity of the worst serial killer in Great Britain would be.. Japanese! (kinda paraphrased)
Susato: W-wait! This face... I feel like I've seen it somewhere before.
[bottle smash]
Masked Disciple: "[Significantly-louder-than-normal screaming]"
[Dramatically removes his cloak]
Masked Disciple: F-father!
Ryunosuke: "....! F-father...?
[He takes off his mask. Ryunosuke and Susato both gasp]
Ryunosuke: Asougi!
Ryunosuke's Internal Monologue: (My best friend. Kazuma Asougi. ...I remember everything. From one year ago, until now... He's standing right before me...)
Asougi: Naruhodo?
Ryunosuke: It's been a long time.... my friend.
Susato: "Kazuma-sama!"
Asougi: Legal assistant Mikotoba. ...It must have been difficult. Thank you, for guiding my friend this far in my stead.
Susato: K-kazuma-sama...
Ryunosuke: You're.... really alive.... Asougi!
Asougi: I hid myself while I tried to repair myself. I must thank you as well. After all, you protected that for me.
Ryunosuke: Eh? Ah... (The sword that's been handed down though generations in Asougi's family: Karuma. He carried it when he departed Japan. He always carried it with him as his "Japanese spirit". ...Then, when that "case" occured... I received that Katana from Susato. Along with your lingering ideals.) I felt like while I had this, you were always watching over and protecting me.
Asougi: We've finally arrived at this. Father.
Ryunosuke: Father? Don't tell me, you know...! (That face.... I don't want to believe it... but the homicidal maniac's true identity is... Asougi's father!)
[Asougi slices wax figure in half]
Susato: K-kazuma-sama...
Asougi: Naruhodo. I have a lot more to tell you, but there's no time now. Let's meet again.
Ryunosuke: (Asougi left us and exited the courtroom)

Author:  Iris Van Zieks [ Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

Man this case was amazing, probably one of my more favorite cases in DGS. That ending scene was executed really well I loved it, I guess my only problems with it is how Naruhodou and Susato should have reacted lol

Wait I remember back in DGS 1 Case 2 they autopsied Asougi's body and all that stuff that made me believe that Asougi was dead, however because of his big reveal at the end of episode 3, was it actually just an elaborate plot to hide the fact that he is actually alive? Nikomina is actually innocent? More importantly how does it explain how Asougi became the disciple of Van Zieks. So many questions that needs to be answered (that I hope is addressed in the upcoming episodes) and all we got are "Oh Hey Naruhodou and Susato, I'm actually alive so yeah, be right back doing something important" Lol

Author:  nuageklow [ Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode three discussion thread

favourite case besides T&T Case 5

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